Welcome to another episode of the Cloud-Based Mayhem. I am on the road. I recorded this just a little while ago on the Oregon coast here, so you might hear a little bit of waves and stuff in the background and some kids downstairs, but I just had a great talk with Armin Harisch. He is one of the founders of Skywalk and very involved with FlySurfer, which I didn't know that those two brands are under the same flag. So he's been involved in kite surfing and paragliding for an awful long time. In fact, learned how to fly in 1989 and was the first person to fly 300K in the flatlands of Germany and has been at it a long time, been totally injury-free, is kind of a sky god when it comes to flying flatlands.
So a good portion of the show is dedicated to flatland flying techniques and strategies and what you can do, and he's also done a lot of videos up on, just been checking some of those out. So if you go to the show notes for this one, you'll find. His links to a lot of the videos and instruction he does, you can actually hire him to teach. And so a lot of good information there from the flatland perspective. Also some thoughts on the stupidity of being frustrated after a flight goes bad and some thoughts on safety and we get into lightweight stuff. And so, yeah, a lot of interesting things here. I think you're going to enjoy this. So without further delay, let's just get into it and please enjoy this conversation with Armin Harisch.
Armin, so great to have you on the show. We've had many people ask for you. I've been told a lot of things that are going to make you blush. A flatland sky god was one I got several times. So I'm really excited to talk to you about skywalk, about, you know, before we even opened the show there, we were talking, I didn't know that the connection between skywalk and fly surfer. And, you know, as we discussed, I've got a long history in kite surfing as well that we don't often talk about on the show. So I'm sure there's some crossover there that'll be really interesting. So that'll be, that'll be fun. And then I really want to drill down with you about flatland techniques and strategies. And, and you, you mentioned before we started that you, you started flying in 1989, which has taken us way back to the very origins and kind of discovered that flatland flying was, was possible.
So we've got a lot of things to cover and but thank you for coming on the show and thank you for sharing your time. That's a
pleasure. I hope someone is interested in that. I've got some values I can share with you.
Great. Great way. This usually I would start by asking you your history and, and taking us up through that, which I'm going to do what I thought we'd, we'd start this one off a little bit differently than, than we typically do, because you, you mentioned that you started flying in 1989.
I'm going to put you on the spot here. Can you, can you recount your most amazing flying experience? Now, this doesn't have to be your best flight. This could just be, you know, this could be the most terrifying, what, whatever, which, what, what pops to mind, what pops into your mind when I, when I ask you that question?
Yeah, luckily I have not really too bad experience so far, no accident. Um, so I'm really proud and happy about it and want to go on like this. Um, one of my nice flight was, uh, in a wave at the ocean where you could climb over the clouds. Uh, and this was really, really nice flight. I just. Had a group with me for a paragliding course and the locals was already gone and then we could go out and go around the cloud, go over the clouds and was in the blue sky. I also have a short video at my YouTube channel. I can link it to you and the people can see this was one of my greatest flight, but the other one was my, um, the first flight that ever happened in, um, Germany, the 300 kilometers flight.
That was also really exciting for me.
And when, when, when was that, the 300 K flight that was, so that makes sure I understand that was the first time you flew 300 K. No,
it was the first time that it was done in Germany. Oh, okay. That someone was taking off from Germany. What was flying 300 kilometers. I was doing it with our tequila in B wing and even the other guys could not do it with the competition wing. So it was, uh, yeah, quite some, um, um, interest about this flight and it was really exciting for me. Yeah. It, the forecast doesn't look too good. It was just the average day, but it worked out to be able to fly 300 kilometers here in Germany. It was really a nice experience when you know, you, you fly further than everybody before and you still have time for a thermic, but you still can go on. That was really exciting.
When was this?
I think it was four years ago. I have to check the flight. I just, usually I just remember only the experience, but I don't. It's. Uh, no, always the dates and everything. I live for experiences. I
think it was, I think it was, I was going through, uh, you know, we're, we, we don't use the, the DHV system. We, we mostly use X contest. Uh, and I was, I was surprised, you know, when some of your friends asked me to get you on the show, uh, they, they gave me the links to the, the DHV site that most Germans use for, for flying. So I was searching through that this morning and I came up with your fly. I think it was four years ago. That was, yeah, that was impressive. Uh, you know, any kind of flight like that is always one for the memory banks.
Yeah. But if you fly where you grow up and do a great flight, it's also something very excited. What was also very excited was when I was, um, we made a trip to Namibia, an XT trip with some other Skywalk pilots, and it didn't happen that people was doing cross country in Namibia for plenty of years. So it was a lot of research, but it was so great. The first flight we did. When you climb over 5,000 feet. 5,000 meters over the flat lands and have 4,000 meters over ground and have this great clouds there. And just this, uh, sand down, almost no roads. This was really, really exciting. Did
you, did you tell, so I I've spent some time in Namibia. Did you tell up there or how did you, how did you get up?
Yeah, we had our own winch that was taking with us, the shoe bag winch at this time. And we was, uh, five pilots. And there's also a nice video done from. On the trip, I can thank you the link and, uh, that, that was really, um, a great experience. I always dreamed about when you're on holiday, like in Africa or somewhere, and you just see this great clouds and sometimes you, the dust devils going up, but you still think maybe it's possible to fly there. And I mean, the same planes do a lot of records. They are in Namibia. It's the main target and you can, you're allowed to climb up to a bit more than 6,000 meters. And. Yeah. That was. It was really, um, the goal was made a German record in, in hate gain, but it also possible to, to make a world record of height gain, but it was not doing the last year because I had, or we had no time, but it's, it's, um, a very interesting, exciting spot to do records.
Yeah, that was, you know, uh, that never even occurred to me when I was there. We went out to the Sousa play and we did a little bit of paramotoring and we did, you know, the, every afternoon when the sea breeze would come in strong, it was, the angle was. It was always really wrong, but we could do, you know, almost to Sousa's
slave. That was also great.
It's so beautiful. What
an amazing place. Um, expect this really thermal, but the forecast was telling that there's also sermons. So we was towing us up and it was flying to the ocean, to Sousa's sleigh until the west wind from the ocean was coming. Then we had to land, but, um, yeah, that was also very exciting.
It's such a, uh, one of the, uh, one of. My favorite countries to, to travel and, you know, you get those Toyota Hilux trucks with all the camping gear on the back and, you know, all the roads are dirt and there's just, you know, it's like being in a, in a safari the whole time, but that's wild, you know, it's just, there's no fences. There's no, there's no ownership. There's just, you know, oh, there's elephants and oh, there's, you know, there's bad, it's just awesome. Yeah.
It's not undangerous for sure. Yeah. So I think, uh, Reno's for example, out there when we was towing, there was a big fence. And after two days we asked, why is there such a big fence? Yeah, because there are, uh, Renault's Ross and other animals, so you should not land at the other side.
Okay. But it was cross country going over this land. So, yeah.
Yeah. I would imagine that was, that'd be, that could, could be definitely kind of terrifying when you're up 5,000 meters, you're just loving it. But when you're about to land and it might be elephants or something, I mean, there's, it's, it's a wild place.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it was such a bad position. It can be that you're 30 kilometers away from every normal road. Of course. And then you're a bit of a problem. There are some farms, but you don't know if there's someone or if there's no one. And, um, uh, if it's so hot there, you can't walk too far. You'd be always had three to four liters of water with us in case of emergency. Did you have to land somewhere that you don't die because you have nothing to drink? Uh, but anyway, it worked good out. We never had a real problem. Everybody was lending. landing maximum one or two kilometers from the road away and we had no problems at all everything was um in research we did already that there how to get a helicopter in a in case of emergency but we had no problems we only had one guy who had a big collapse but it was in front of a thunderstorm at this day i was not flying because i i like to fly when it's safe and i had not a single collapse and just was one guy who had a big collapse but the rest was also fine
you you mentioned uh i want to rewind you mentioned you know in your whole career you've never had an accident um what do you what do you chalk that up to is that's uh that's unfortunately a very frequent uh topic on the show or people that have accidents and fear injuries and coming back not just from the physical side but the mental side but you know you've been flying since since 89 that that's exceptional i
think i have enough fear that i don't uh i don't feel excited if it gets dangerous some people like it i'm also not a competition pilot i don't like to always fly full speed when you're always close close to the collapse so i dislike it sometimes i fly a bit of competition but it don't give me any excitement so i'm i prefer to go at nice conditions with nice clouds and then i go cross country and love it but if it looks too shitty i i do something else
okay so fear is a good thing isn't it it's a yeah
helps you to survive
yeah yeah you've got to mind that um okay well before we i i'm still just i kind of want to ask you a lot more questions about namibia but that's that's probably not where we need to focus the show that's just a nice
video if you watch for it you see a lot and you still have some questions let me know
yes you'll send me these links after and we'll include all those in the show notes so everybody can can watch those that just sounds fantastic as does the wave flight off the off the coast that'd be amazing um tell me about your your history with with uh fly surfer and and skywalk and how that all came together i understand you're one of the one of the founders one of the owners of the company yeah
um yeah i um when i was uh 17 i was a professional canoeing guy and was german champion canoeing and i was doing then a different competition where someone was paragliding and then i started paragliding with him and i was doing a different competition where someone was and teach him with some canoeing and when i started um with the paragliding i did more and more professional and i was doing the first record was 1995 with 166 kilometers in the flatlands before the first flight was 71 kilometers and it was um close to the record that was done two weeks before by torsten hane from the alps and then everybody was listening about the flatlands because no one could imagine that it was a flatland and i was doing the first imagine that it's possible to make such big flights in the flatlands but um yeah whatever i do if i trust in something that it's possible and if people tell me that it's impossible
then they just motivate me to to show that it's possible now
what was that before you go on you know because i wasn't a pilot then that you know when when people say that you you know that it wasn't possible in the flatlands like weren't weren't the hang gliders um you know doing pretty big flatlands flights and texas and stuff at that time was it just was it specific to the german flatlands that that you know that that hadn't been you know that people just weren't weren't doing it or was it just period flatlands it
was not too much from the hang gliders but one hang glider was also flying like 170 kilometers i think lucas etsy was flying close to paris or something and it was one of my dream and at this one 166 kilometer flight i was also reaching then frost and flying into frost and it was really exciting to be able yeah to fly the whole day if you just take off from this small hills or our winch i was doing winch towing at this day but you had only 100 150 meters where you was disconnecting because the space was so narrow and it was yeah it was really difficult already when you get a sermon it was exciting and yeah it was really a fun
experience and what about um yeah i'm taking you off on a little side note here and i'm going to ask you a question here is is airspace quite difficult on these on these flatlands flights that you have in germany because isn't there just tons of airspace
that's right at this time it was a bit more opened because it was close to frankfurt airport where i was taking off and now you can't also fly so high anymore at this area and it's still a lot of navigation in the air to get around all this airspace it's one of the reasons why not too much people are able to make a cross country flights when i was doing my 300 kilometer flight i was passing an airspace which is forbidden to pass but there was a no time that it's allowed at this day to pass it so after i was landing at the dhv there was a lot of people calling uh this guy was getting to the airspace to call him and he was calling me and usually you well prepared was it really illegal and i said no there was a no time it's allowed they should check it
i have to say that's it you know in the X-Alps that's my achilles heel is is uh because we just we don't have airspace where i at all i don't have any and where i fly at home we you know we can't we can't go above 18 000 feet and that's it uh and so there's it i always have to really study that before the race because we just i just don't deal with it very much so it must be something that's just second nature for you yeah
if you have a goal whatever you do then you have to look how to reach the goal and if it's necessary to to how to navigate then you just do it because if your dream is to fly 300 kilometers then yeah it's difficult a lot of airspaces you need to get around and at this flight i also had my radio with me i was at one airspace i had to get contact by air radio to get a position to pass it for example but yeah you just do it okay
well i i took you off on a on a tangent there to get take me back again to i want i want you
to talk a little bit about the
skywalk and fly surfer and just the the genesis of the company and and how that all kind of came together yeah
at um at year 2000 i had a paragliding shop at this time and a friend of mine who was starting to build kites and i said okay i will help you because that had the paragliding job i was not flying too much anymore i was excited about trying out something and we developed the kites and then we found a fly surfer and some friends from paragliding from me they also founded the paragliding shop and i was like oh my god i'm going to fly a kite and i'm going to fly a marina a brand for a spinnaker sail with a wing inside and we met at the boat show in dusseldorf and then we decided to make a company together and we have one development we have just one office and everything together and then we founded skywalk and this was in 2000 yeah and then everything started there also we decided to make paragliders because we all was coming from the paragliding business our heart is for paragliding and yeah and everything started so
and this is something that quite fascinates me because i i worked very closely with with best kite boarding when they were the sponsor of of the the first you know big kind of around the world expedition we did called the best odyssey and then i've worked with cabrinha uh in 2012 until now as the cabrinha quest which was our second time kind of around the world that one stayed more in the in the south pacific but um it you know the kite surfing is similar in some respects to to paragliding when it comes to the manufacturing end of things and also just the people doing it you know you've kind of got a limited there these are two sports that don't really grow that much i mean kite surfing really had its heyday back in the early 2000s mid-2000s and as i understand it and you would know more that the the total number it's kind of like paragliding the attrition is taking care of the people that are coming into it it's it's kind of a zero-sum game i mean it's i'm sure it's growing some but but um you know you all these companies are fighting for the same sales um it just seems like a tough business
yeah for sure it's a tough business um yeah it's i think it's more or less bit all the sports business bit more difficult for example best kiteboarding they had big problems and then there was coming a guy with a lot of money was just buying it and it had a big problem again and then it was coming the next guy who was earning money from other companies before and was spending his money into best again and he was almost all team riders was bought by best there was almost no team riders anymore i think two-thirds of the team riders was riding best yeah and yeah at the moment best is not really on the market anymore because yeah more or less yes uh so we're driven by our passion because we do what we like and there are always some competitors which makes it difficult because maybe they don't have to earn money and yeah but we always was going on and we are still growing so it looks like it was not doing a bad job so far and yeah
we like what we do one
of the questions i get from a lot of people is everybody wants to know about Chrigel and skywalk and i had Chrigel on the show and and he just you know he kind of bypassed this a little bit but when you have Chrigel flying your wing in the X-Alps you know what is have you been able to track that what does that equate to in terms of sales is that is that a you know does that work quite
well that's always difficult to say if it gives more sales or less sales i mean Chrigel was asking us if you could ride our paraglider and on our head of skywalk was thinking about it because you know Chrigel was already winning four times and if he's riding or flying our paraglider and if he's not winning again people could tell oh the skywalk wing is not good because i hadn't thought of
that there's actually some risk there it's also risk but
if he's winning again yeah for sure it's good promotion i think the main promotion war that was that Chrigel was winning again and i think Chrigel was deciding us for his wing so it shows that for his uh choice that's the best choice he can do to take this wing so i think this was the main benefit from it and he was winning but i think we had four people in the top five or something with skywalk yeah you guys crashed it this year yeah yeah we crushed it this year yeah so it was that was really good because it was not only Chrigel a lot of people and all the range X-Alps too which is now also in a customer version of
Chrigel on
the market uh and was developed from uh the product that they was using in the X-Alps and we are selling it like hell we have delivery time of three months and more we can't uh fit for the demand we already expected three times more than with the older model but it's just exploding so um yeah but we've got a good terran harness developer who also loves to make this hike and flight he's also doing some competitions so you know exactly what the people need yeah
i was i was really impressed by that yeah i think it's a really good product i think it's a really good kit i know it was a really good kit i think it is a really good kit i think it was a really good pass with the harness that was uh and the bag actually the that was a it was a really nice well thought out kit uh beautiful yeah
um Chrigel should have flown it because it's a lot more aerodynamical and more comfortable and then the other ones but he had still agreements with other brands so he could not take everything but a lot of other people was using it and flying good with it so yeah no it was it
was it was very nice kit i have to say uh you know i'm an i'm a niviate guy but it's uh but yeah it was really nice i think it was a really nice kit and i think it was a really Nice kit.
Crossover between Flysurfer, and I'm not very familiar with Flysurfer, and we don't have to kite into things here, but you mentioned some kind of interesting things before we started about design. Tell the audience, too, what your role is there. Are you a test pilot? Are you a designer? Are you marketing? What's your role there at the two companies?
Yeah, I'm one of the founders and one of the owners. We are four owners of Skywalk, and so my daily business is in the Flysurfer department, and one main part is there in the development, but I'm also into the other brands, like the X2, for example. I also try to help them a bit with the paragliders. Last week, I was at an event at the Mosel and helping the people try out the gear, for example, but I'm not testing the paragliders. This is done by Alex. This is done by Alex and Stefan Gruber. Stefan Gruber was also in the X-Alps competing, but they still all give my feedback when I fly the wings. Usually, sometimes I fly prototypes before serial production,
and sometimes we kite developers make a paraglider, or the paraglider developer makes a kite. Or, for example, Benny Burley, he was a team rider for Flysurfer. Then he showed up in our company and was working in the paragliding department, and now he's working for the Flysurfer department. He makes very, very good wings.
Will Skywalk get into the CCC end of things, or will you stick where you are?
At the moment, we have not the manpower to do it. If you go in the CCC competition, you need enough manpower to be able to be at least equal to Ozone or very close. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense. They only prove that you're behind. It means if you step in, you need power and energy.
You need to
really push it forward. We will see what happens in the future. I know Alex and Stefan would really love to do it, but we also need some income. The daily business is to also have wings for normal people and not only competition, but it's not decided now. We will see. We always make some prototypes. For example, in the kite surfing, the whole racing scene since four or five years was switching completely to foil kites. Of course, they have a better lift-to-track ratio. Now, we've got in the competition the only one who has a two-liner. All other brands, even Ozone, have only three-liners. At the moment, we are also leading with our constructions. It's really nice to see.
Wait a minute. You only have a two-liner kite? Yes. We have a two-liner for the racing. We are the only one who has a two-liner. Wow. I can't even imagine it. I can't wait to see a picture. Yeah, I forward. But it's funny. We also have a one-liner, which only aero and then brake risers for beginners. It's called Viron. And this also works.
Wow. You mentioned that there's kind of this fascinating thing. With kites, the technology has gotten to a point now that when it's super gusty, the kite doesn't fall out of the air, especially like they used to.
Wouldn't that be amazing with a paraglider? Yes. You know, be in really rough air and it just stays really solid. What are you guys working on there? That sounds pretty fascinating.
Yeah, exactly. When I started with the kites, it was a bit like the paragliders. If you accelerate, go for full speed. With the kites, it means if you depower, then it was always starting to collapse. So we need to develop something to make them stable. It's like with the paragliding that you use the reflex wings. But since the last 10 years, we've also been developing a lot more to make it not only stable, to also be able to handle everything. And all this technology, I was already building some prototypes. We call it SkyCarver between a kite and a paraglider. It is fully stable or the same stable like a trim speed, even if you go full speed. And it dives like hell.
If you go for full speed, you have five meter seconds. Five meters per second sink rate, for example. I think we did 12 square meter one. And top speed was 122 kilometers per hour. So it's something different. It's not a normal paraglider.
Right. Wow. Cool stuff coming out of Skywalk. That'll be interesting to see where that goes.
Yeah. At the moment, there's still no final plan when we bring this hybrid between kite and paraglider. But you will see. I still have a prototype with me. I will also go on testing with it. And yeah, we will see.
You were saying that, you know, it's something that would be much more stable than what we have now, but it wouldn't be something you could certify. Can you explain that?
Yeah, exactly. You can't certify it. It's like if you would now develop a hang glider, you can't certify it as a paraglider. Because they tell you, yeah, but if we are, what happens if it collapses? And then you say, no, it doesn't collapse. But yes, somehow it can collapse. And even a hang glider can collapse. But it's, I mean, this Skycar between a kite and a paraglider, it's a lot more easy to let it collapse than a hang glider for sure. But it's still a lot more difficult to let it collapse compared to a paraglider, especially accelerated. So, and it's more important if it collapses or that it doesn't collapse about two, ten times less. And if it collapses, that it's not too far away from a normal paraglider. But for sure, if you let it collapse like a normal paraglider. You would get a bad certification because, yeah.
You're going too fast.
It's not done by turbulence. If you would fly it in turbulence like kites, then it would be a lot safer for the same amount of turbulence. But if you just pull the risers until it starts to collapse, then it's less good for certification. Fascinating. It's a known issue. I mean, also, I think Ozone also tried to push the A-lines further backwards. But if you make a collapse, then it's collapsing more. Then you get less. That's easy, good certification. But if the A-rises are further backwards, it flies a bit nicer. So, certification is good and bad. It's both.
Yeah, no kidding. How important is it for you to, for the company to come up with, you know, to constantly be kind of putting out the next version of the B, the next version of the C, the next version of the D? You know, how quickly is a company kind of in trouble? If there's not, if there's not the latest and greatest, I mean, I imagine that's quite a bit of pressure to, you know, to just be constantly innovating.
There's always pressure to be constantly innovating and to be one of the best. Otherwise, your company is failing. I mean, it's, it's how it is and how it should be. But we don't have too much or we don't push too much pressure. If the wing is not good enough, we don't release it. If it's good enough, then we release it. We had already, it was waiting for one year longer. Even that we don't have a, I think it was with the Cayenne that you was taking, no, we take another year until we release it. And it was good to do it because then you have a winner again, instead of having a good product, but not good enough product. So take your time. And also with the kites, the fly surfer kites, we have usually product cyclists and kite surfing is every year, new product. And we have from two to three years, the product cyclists, and it also helps that the customers are trust if you're bringing something out that it's really something that.
It's worth to buy it and it stays longer for value and the retail value is higher and you're losing less money with the product and everything. It's not that easy in our fast.
Yeah. You know, fast world that you try to push to have products that last longer and you get more value for money. Usually it's just, I want it cheap. And after a few weeks, if it's destroyed, it's not a big problem for the most people. But. Yeah. Really. Yeah. Yeah. You don't have to have product that is worth the money that lasts long.
One more question, and then we'll jump into the Flatlands techniques and strategies, which I think is going to be a great round out to your discussion with you. I had a really good talk in several episodes back with Till, who's been with Nova for a long time. And they've done some pretty fascinating, very cool things with their junior team and their approach to team pilots. And safety and I'd like to get your thoughts on just how Skywalk decides on their, on their pilots, their team pilots. So the Paul Gushel Bowers, and I mean, I guess Chrigel now with the ex-Alps, but the, but how do you, how have you approached that? Do you guys have a junior team? How, how have you approached kind of growing the sport?
I'm sure that's something that's important to your company.
Yeah. We don't have a special program for just only young pilots. But we have young pilots like Thomas Friedrich, for example. So we look which are the right pilots, how to support them, and we're supporting them. I'm not into it because I'm not in charge of the paragliding department. It's our honor, but for example, here, where I fly the Flatlands, the good friends from me, they also fly Skywalk. And last year we was in the German championship, number place three, I think two, three. And four, or something like this, or the top five, it was three persons already in the top five. So, yeah, but it's, if there's good pilots, just let us know, introduce yourself, I'd recommend take a video or something.
So to show that you're not only can fly a paraglider, that you're also able to, to make a video from you and to promote yourself a bit.
Okay, Flatland, you've been doing it a long time. And, and I'm glad you're here. And I, I, I'd like to just drill into, you know, what you've learned over the years, what you can, advice you can pass along for how to, how to learn how to fly the Flatlands. And if you already fly them, how to fly them better. Is that, maybe that's too general, but why don't, why don't we just open it with that and, and, you know, let's, let's get into it.
Yeah, usually I make some speeches for people. They can book me and then I can speak about two to four hours about Flatland, flying with some videos, showing the different scenes and then they can look, okay, what, how I should decide, where can I see where the sermon is coming. So it's not that easy and it takes a bit of time to get used to it, that has a lot of tips and tricks you can give to the people. In general, it's a bit different, different than at the Alps, for example. At the Alps if there's no wind, you've got the sermon coming. sun the sun is getting into the mountains and if the the mountain is 90 degrees to the sun then it's eating up the energy getting hot and then the air is going up and on top of the mountain it's lifting off and you see the clouds and usually clouds are directly above the hills so it's quite easy in the flats it's more difficult you need to read more and to listen to slightly differences whatever happens so it's more that you have to realize what is going on yeah
and you know that are you are you frequently flying you know are you trying to find the days that have quite a bit of wind you know so you can get farther are you are you are your flatlands often quite wind affected yeah
it's it's also a question what you want if you just look for xc points that you would do in the competition then you need almost no wind or the best is turning wind during the day that you can make a closed triangle but usually in the flatlands it's more difficult than in the alps because usually if there's a little bit of wind the thermal is moving with the wind in the alps the mountains don't move even if there's wind so it's more stationary so it's easier to get against the wind usually you do in the flatlands one way and then you need strong enough wind to get really far usually if you have 20 kilometers per hour or a bit more then it gets can get really far as long i mean if you have 20 kilometers per hour wind and you just only stay up in the air for 10 hours you fly 200 kilometers even if you don't go into one direction just flying around because the wind is blowing you this 200 kilometers already and with 20 kilometers of wind and you're able to stay up in the air for 10 hours that you can fly 300 kilometers so
we we don't have the advantage of uh being able to to see you as this is an audio podcast but when you give these talks and we'll have a link for that too how people can can book you because i imagine that would be fantastic and terrific learning um but what are take me through you know your kind of syllabus there and and talk about each each topic a little bit you know so what are some of these tips and strategies yeah
first of all i also have a video channel i give you the link i'm for the people and there's some i call it in german a clear bear video that means um
i'm a bear uh i'm okay i'm just explaining how i do it and you see the video when i'm flying and then i'm explaining what i see and why i decide what to do and this is how i try to explain to people how to fly in the flatlands i have plenty of videos done already so it's i think it's a few hours where you can watch for the videos and i also have a page it's called my name uh dot d e where you also find all my tips and tricks and links about paragliding paragliding flying in the flatlands great it's a link book so it's even if you just listen to it then you can watch for it for the videos there's for example also videos from sailplane pilots who is also explaining how to file with this fly with the same plane in the flatlands far for example about the how to get the no times if you want to get around the air spaces
the airspace informations um all or about the technique what i use i've got a mobile phone for example all about this all these tips are they included if you have special questions then we can get into the points for example how to find the first thermal or when you take off how to catch the first thermal or how to find about the weather all these links that are already included but we can speak about points in detail whatever you like to yeah
let's let's let's take it right from the beginning so um how about from the weather side how before you're at the even at the toe paddock uh you know how are you identifying what are the steps you're going through to identify like hey this is a good day this is this is one we we want to be getting out for yeah
um usually i've got in germany it's top meteo dot eu that's the forecast it also exists for namibia for example the best one you can get but i don't think it's for america and this one you have got forecast for the potential flight distance for the day and you should watch for this and then you see already if it forecasts that it's possible to make cross country for a lot of kilometers after i check this and i check how the clouds are looking because this forecast is not too accurate i was explaining them what they could change already but they was not doing it so i have to check if the clouds are looking more like it's raining or example and you can't do the cross country too good or if it's a bit thunderstorms that's also a bit more difficult but if it's normal let's say two to third eight
clouds then it will be a great day and then also check about the wind usually we want to do one way it should have minimum 15 kilometers per hour better 20 or maybe a bit more depends on the takeoff area then it can fly very far or it's almost no wind then you can make a fae triangle or something like this that's usually how i check it it's very fast for me and if this looks good then i look into any details so
one of the things that that i i constantly fall into a trap of is i'll i'll look at the medio and and you know identify okay this is a day i really want to take advantage of and then i go to tom payne's uh xc planner and uh and i start trying to imagine what i'm gonna try to do with the day and i and i and i set up a you know
knowing that you know in my mind listen i'll fly the day this is just this is just an idea but i often get locked into that idea and blow it because i you know i really want to get the FAI or i really want to get this far and i and i feel like i'm not on the pace and so i'll speed up and i blow it um how how what are you are you what kind of idea are you are you trying to go with and how are you remaining flexible especially
with the flat lens you have to be you know you have to be very flexible i usually always make plans but the plans are more for me to to already pre-think about the options so when i plan something i always plan with different options then i learn already okay if i go if the wind is a bit more south and i can go around this airspace different or if i fly this area sometimes i look at the cross country flights already if a lot of people was landing and it's maybe very difficult at this area or if it was easy or the people was flying over it and it looks like a bit easier area so i already learn a bit while i'm planning but the planning is more for to learn about uh if it's different than how to do it different but usually you always have to catch the thermal where the thermal is and not why you expect or you want to have it how
do
you or what do you teach uh when about you know either for yourself teach for when when you do blow it uh in the
beginning shortly before learning i said now it's over and i tried to educate my skills that i know as early as possible that get difficult now usually i know before i get close to the cloud base it will be difficult after the cloud base because before you close to the cloud base then you can watch in the future or where you want to go and if it looks difficult there that's not enough clouds for example or the area looks different difficult because it's maybe um it's too wet at the next area or the next area if it's a bit lower than the area where you're at the moment then usually the sermon is not that good i realize it already before i get low and try to stay as high as possible and take all the time i want to have and it you need to to teach yourself to learn as early as possible that it becomes difficult because when you're low you have not too much options anymore when you're high you have plenty more options you can still even park below the cloud to have a better chance to not land the main goal for flattened flying is to stay the whole day in the air it sounds easy it is maybe not that easy usually if the people are staying the whole day in the air they are flying very far and for the even for not the people who want to fly the
longest flight, but it's still the most fun to use the whole day, you know? So try to stay in the air and don't speed too much.
Tell me about crosswind flying. And, you know, one of the things that I've been really trying to work on is we had a task down at the Menarca in January. The really long task was the last day. And not the final leg, but the long leg to what would be the kind of the end waypoint and then back to goal was a long upwind leg. And very few people pulled it off because it was quite windy. But the move there was to constantly try to move up to wind whenever, you know, if a cloud would pop to windward, you really had to expel the, you know, to use the energy and to go really slow because you're punching into wind.
Because otherwise, if you're constantly going downwind, you were never going to make the waypoint, you know? So you had to really think ahead and kind of do this huge bell, constantly kind of fighting into wind. And then sometimes you would have to fall off because if you tried to go to wind to get a thermal, you'd bomb out. So it was kind of this anticipation of having to go downwind at some point. So constantly fight upwind when you thought you could get there.
When you're not flying downwind in the flats, tell me a little bit about the strategy there. The
main thing is to first always for flatland flying, you have to understand how the thermal is structured. Usually, you know, cloud streets and the cloud streets are following more or less the wind direction. And for example, even if you have no clouds, you still have cloud streets without clouds. They still have the same physics. So usually it's better if you're flying, if you have got thermals, less straight into the wind. And usually on the road where you got always the lift, that's one of the tricks. And then if you're still doing crosswind, then maybe you have to go 90 degrees to the wind to the next cloud street and going straight into the wind. I would not go straight, usually not go straightly into the, to the point, turn point.
Usually you've got a thermal, expect maybe it's a cloud street and try to get the next part of the cloud street and then going 90 degrees instead of going. Straight. When happens cloud streets a bit more difficult. Usually cloud street if the wind is always the same speed and direction with all the same height, or with different heights, then you have no cloud streets. But if the wind is getting stronger in the higher upper areas, then the updraft gets a bit pushed for further away, and it's getting down the downdraft and generating this is pushing the next lift. And you realize a bit more how the thermal, is the downdraft is triggering the next thermal, and you know a bit more about the cloud stream, then you have a better chance to catch the next thermal.
Tell me about, I was down in Brazil, chasing really big distance this, this fall. And what I, when I started playing around with there was being way more aggressive than we're typically taught, or either the kind of the rule of thumb is, oh, you're in sync, you know, turn 45 degrees and use a lot of speed. That's, that's
a good thing. Right. That's
what I learned when I started flying. And I found that that just was not nearly enough, you know, that you, that the lift was very strong, and the sync was, the sync was incredibly strong. And if you spent any time in the sync, you were on the deck. That's
right. You just,
you really had to be aggressive. And so it was quite hard to mentally do this, but it was, you know, because you were going so far off course line, but I was often turning 90 degrees. What, what, what was
that like?
What are your thoughts on sync?
First of all, it's the same like with the cloud streets. Like also you have the updraft cloud streets orientated with the wind and also the downdraft is orientated with the wind. So if you're flying downwind and you're inside of this downdraft street, it makes sense to go 90 degrees right or left to get into the updraft again if it's a kind of cloud street day. You have to find the right way how to get as fast as possible out of it. When I was starting paragliding the flatlands and the paragliders was very bad, usually I was getting into the sync. I was turning around, getting back into the climbing area to not get into this syncing area. But this is not makes you very fast in flying, but it's a good chance to stay up in the air.
I'm in sync. I'm going to move. I'm going to go back to the lift. Yes,
just turn around, go back where it was coming from. I mean, for less experienced pilot, it's still an option. But for sure, if you want to do 300, 400, 500 kilometers, this is no option. And you have to push accelerator and look where you can find the next lift. And you need a bit of luck also to make a really record-breaking flight.
That leads perfectly into my next question. There are days, you know, when I flew the record here in the States. That was five years ago now. You know, it was like, it was one of those days where it was just, I was constantly in sync. I'd leave the cloud and I'd turn and go downwind and another cloud would appear right in front of me. You know, it was just magic. And that was, you know, that I was just constantly in sync with the thermals. And I mean, there were some exceptions to that. Obviously, it was a long day, but I really had trouble with that. And in Brazil, you know, it almost did the same thing every day. You would, if you got established, which was, was really tricky, you know, 90 % of the pilots would be on the deck in the first 15, 20K every day, you know, so it was really hard to get established.
And maybe we could go back to your, you mentioned that that was, you know, finding the first thermal is the key in the flatlands. And so you can kind of get established and get into the middle of the day where, when it gets good. But so we'll, we'll come back to that. But, you know, in Brazil, that would be, you know, these beautiful cloud streets right off, right off the bat. Often until, you know, kind of 10, 11, you know, when you imagine the best part of the day is just, you
know, starting
and then you'd have these massive blue holes, huge and, and, and if you didn't anticipate, because there's a lot of wind, you know, you can't just park it under a cloud and wait and wait and wait for the blue hole to fill in, you know, you're, you're moving. So you, you could slow down, but if you didn't anticipate that early enough, if you didn't slow down, you know, 20 minutes before that happened, which often you weren't, you couldn't see, you couldn't see the blue hole coming yet, you know, you'd, you'd be on the deck. It was really tricky. Um, and so I don't know if there's a, if there's even an answer to that, but the, you know, it, when you looked at the end of the day, you know, the, it was, it was very often some of the same pilots were, were, were making it through, you know, it wasn't just random.
It wasn't just a random 10 pilots would make it. It was, Oh, there's that guy again. He made it, you know,
it's not random. Yes, exactly.
It's not.
You did a bit of luck. That's also right. You can't calculate everything. But usually I, I never flew in Brazil for, um, so I can't tell exactly, but, uh, what I tried to do is, um, I try to know where are areas, which is not good for thermals. Um, if you know where the areas usually where it's difficult, then you already slow down a bit before I try to get a bit right or bit left to go a bit around as early, you notice this as early, you can go a bit to the right or left as easy as it is to get around it. And yeah, you always try. Try to realize, you need to realize as early as possible that it becomes difficult because then you can slow down a bit, a bit higher and get a bit slower. And then usually in the blue area, it can pop up a cloud when you get in there.
But if you're too fast there, maybe you can't catch the next cloud. So, um, try to realize as early as possible that it becomes difficult planning what I do. I also know quite well, the areas where it's difficult, uh, with the service.
Okay. So. How do you identify that? Is that experience you've been through there before, or is that something you're identifying in the models?
Um, usually I like to fly new areas, so it's not my experience from exactly this spot. But, um, usually I, for example, go for the, um, contest, uh, X-ray contest, um, flights and I check for this takeoff, for example, all the different flights, for example, the first flight. And then I look for them and try to think what have they been doing and why are they? Why are they doing this? And sometimes I was just watching for the flights and then I was guessing at which date it was done. Was it in the spring? Was it in the fall? And after some time of training, I noticed quite well, okay, this was in the fall and this was in the spring. For example, in the fall or in the summertime, then, uh, fields are dark and there's no water inside anymore.
So the lower areas with the fields was working good, but in, uh, the springtime, they are still green. So it's more difficult. It over the green, uh, fields.
Hmm. Do you, one of the things, this wasn't a question I was planning on asking, but the, one of the things we've been discussing at home here a lot. So I, I live in the desert and I live in big mountains, but we have very close to us is, is kind of like a, like a high plateau, you know? So, so flatlands, but very high, you know, 4,000, 5,000 feet. Um, and, and then, then we have the mountains, but the, you know, right now, this time of year, or even, you know, in, in May, we have the same. Sun that we have in, in July and we have in terms of hours, you know, and it's very direct suns, very overhead in the Northern hemisphere. We're having a debate about why, you know, we, we, the days do come around and we can go quite big, but, uh, very rarely do we get to go as big as we do, you know, a month after the solstice.
So the same sun we have now, but a month later, uh, what are the atmospheric conditions? Is that? Do you, do you also have that in Germany? Is that, is it, does it similar? Um, is this, is this similar round? Is it moisture? Is it ground temperature? Is it taking longer to heat up? Uh, you know, why?
Yeah. Usually the main, main important point is that we get the fresh air, the fresh air. Um, you need, if you have, um, a package of air with zero degrees or a package of air with 20 degrees, you need a significant less energy to heat. A cold air up to get a lift from it than a hot air. So if you have cold air in the energy from the sun generates a lot more, uh, surmise. And if the cold air is coming, then usually it's less stable. And if we get a inversion from a high pressure system, then you get a lot better service. And especially in the summertime here in Germany or in the fall time, even if the sound is a long time there, it's getting quite hot.
But. but the thermal is not getting too good anymore.
Gotcha. Two things. Yeah, and I'll separate them. Finding that first thermal. Talk about getting established. So you've identified, you know, you've looked at the weather the night before. You're going to fly this day. You've got your launch pinned out for where you want to start. You've planned all your, you've done your route on XC Planner. You've planned your airspace issues. Talk about getting established because there's nothing more frustrating than coming off tow and going 10K.
No, for me, it's not frustrating. As long as I land safely and have a nice day, it was a great day. Good point. I'm happy and I drive back and I go for my work and it was fine. I tried it. The weather was usually, most of the time, the weather is different than it was forecasted. You know, it's a common thing. You always get frustrated because it was... A good day forecasted and it's getting shit. No, I don't get frustrated from this. I only get maybe frustrated if everybody's going up and I'm too stupid to get any thermal. But if you get frustrated, it usually also doesn't help.
Usually, I recommend try to be one hour before the thermal is properly starting on the takeoff area. First of all, you have time to speak with your friends and you can prepare yourself a bit better. You already get a feeling for the day. You can watch for it, how the first clouds coming up or how the air is rising up the hill and everything. And usually, I take off very early because you want to fly fast. The most important point, you have to fly long. And you only can fly long if you start early. And so, I try to start as early as possible. And usually, it's quite common that for 50%, I have the first landing down at the hill for sure. And I'm not frustrated at all. Of course, the other guys are still up.
But I was trying the first time already at the first chance. And when I get up the second time, usually, I'm still taking off earlier before the other ones are still taking off. And it's a lot of time that I'm just flying alone because the others don't take off. If you want to fly, you have to take off. And if you land the first time already, then you get a bit of impression for the day already. And you notice a bit already how it feels, how the thermal is, how the turbulence. And you get better experience for the next takeoff already that others don't have. And yeah, if I'm there, I love to fly. And yeah, it's normal. You always land after you fly. If you don't land, if you crash, then you have a problem.
What do you credit your continued passion for flying for? I can hear it in your voice. That's just solid advice. Don't get frustrated. That doesn't help anything, does it? But also, you started flying in 1989. And you clearly still love it. What do you credit that to? Do you go through kind of dips and valleys?
I had years where I was not flying too much. Maybe three, four flights a year. Mainly my holiday. It was about 10 or 15 years because I had to build up my company. And then it was developing this Ewok, the electric engine for paragliding. And my partners asked me if I can do some demos. And I love to do it. And then we grabbed on the project for several years. But then I was going on without the electric engine for paragliding. And after one or two years, I was very good again. And I was just thinking that I had an engine in my bag. And it helped me that it was trying. Okay, I think it works out there. And you should say, okay, otherwise I have an engine. But then you just still do it.
And I get one tip from a very good sailplane pilot. Don't try to search a lift. Just try to find the area where you get the most lifting air. And that makes it a bit easier to find the right line.
That makes sense. Yeah,
I like it. Because that's the best point where you can be. You stay maybe just longer in the air and then the thermals coming. Or there should be the best thermals also. But if you only try. Where is the next thermal? Then it's a bit more difficult. But then you just think, okay, where the air should rise up the most.
And how are you identifying that? Maybe your flatlands are different than ours. But when it's like. Have you flown Australia? Have you flown to Niloquin, the flatlands there?
No. Yes, I was flying in Australia plenty of years ago at the World Cups. Okay, over in Manila. I was also sometimes. I was trying out. A heat cam in the Namibia, for example, also. And was looking if this is working that you see the hot spaces on ground. And to be honest, I tried it in Namibia and it didn't work too bad. But I was trying it in Germany and it didn't work at all. Right. You see the green forest. It's cold. Yeah. Yeah. Still say, no, I'm sure there will be the thermal. And there's a cloud over it. And you go over it and you get the thermal. Yeah. Even that it's the most cold area that you find around. There's a good German book that explains also that you're not only getting lift lifting air from hot air on the ground.
It's also about the difference between the rising up air, how the humidity is compared to the surrounding air. And if the air is has more humidity, if it's more wet. And then it's lighter. And this, if you had a good day where it's the rounding is not too much water inside in the air. And then you get about one, it feels like one degree or two degrees hotter air, just because the air is lighter by more humidity. I don't know if you know this book. I can also give you the link, but it's also at my page. I'm in Harris dot de it's a German book. I don't know if it's also available in English, but it explains.
That it's very simple. Yeah. Yeah. That's
so, so to kind of summarize that, you know, like the, the, often the places that we think aren't going to work, work really well, you know, like the green places, the cold places, the, you know, those, because of the humidity, because that lighter, that air is less dense, it, it moves, it moves.
But this especially works, for example, if it shades down a bit that you have best sun. And then there's. Yeah. There's no, um, then it helps for the, um, um, where there's more water because this area is not, uh, cooling out so easy. And when it dries up high enough, then it's a benefit that there's more humidity inside instead of the surrounding area. So, um, but there also exists people who just flying by, uh, feeling and they doing so great. And some people just fly about thinking, but you see more people. People who are just, uh, have the feeling of flying usually better. I try to, to combine everything a bit together, my feeling and that I've tried to, as I've studied physics to understand a bit why it happens and why it's not happening.
Fascinating. It was, I think, I think one of the mysteries for people who don't fly a lot of flats is, is the lack of triggers, you know, that they, they, they see this kind of, uh, featureless, uh, expanse and, and think, oh man, how do I know where, where things are going to ping off? And it's there, there are, there are always triggers. In
Germany, there are a lot of triggers in the flatlands. Yeah. And
I think, but I, I mean, I think even, that's why I was asking about Australia because it's, it, there really is not much, you know, this is just desert, uh, and it goes forever, but there are still triggers. You just, you just have to adapt your eyes. It's just a different way of looking at the, at the earth.
It's a lot more silent. I would say they're not screaming to you. Here is the sermon. Exactly. Exactly. So look much more carefully, but if everything almost the same, if something a little bit different, and usually this is the trigger, whatever it is, more or less.
Hmm. This would be easier if we had a chalkboard, but I'll, I'll ask you to explain it. And then this will be my, my second to last question. Um, exiting a cloud, uh, you know, let's call it a 15, 20 K downwind day. Uh, you've got real beautiful cloud streets. It's, it's not a blue day. Uh, you're kind of dolphin flying. Uh, um, you know, there's, where should you exit a cloud in, you know, directly downwind, a quarter off it, downwind off it, the talk about kind of strategy for cloud flying.
Um, it's more or less again about how thermos, uh, getting struck. Um, if there's no wind, there's also the theory that you should turn 60 degrees right or left if you're cooking a rice, for example, then there is a. Structure. Um, Octa Ida, I think it's called in English, like structure. That means if you have gone from one summer to the next summer, then the next summer should be 60 degrees, right? Or left. If you have wind, then it's usually like streets. Then you go usually following straight with the wind, but if you're ending the street, it can happen that there is still some lift at the end. And afterwards you have no lift anymore. Then you should turn right or left. I would recommend usually.
But it also depends, uh, on the ground, which ground looks better for the next summer and where you have to point for the future or where the clouds look a bit better.
Got you. Okay. Last question. Uh, you started flying in 1989. Is that correct? Yes. Okay. Uh, without doing the math, that's a lot of years. And, uh, and if you look back at your time, uh, first give us where you were. When you were kind of a 50 hour pilot, what year and where were you? And if you could go back to that time and change anything, you haven't had an accident. So hopefully this is just a simple no, but, um, what, what would you change?
I would have bought Tesla.
That didn't exist back
then.
I pre-ordered Apple stocks. Yeah. Right. Apple. Uh,
for flying, I was, I had a great time. I didn't miss anything. Yeah. Um, yeah, I know I was giving, uh, um, a help for hang glider pilots. I had a small, uh, spot here, uh, around my area and he was dying five minutes later. Uh, if I would have known this before I could have helped him to not take off. But, um,
I was the one friend of mine. He's sitting in a wheelchair. Uh, I had a collapse and was not directing and yeah, if I would have noticed this, I would have not asked him. Why don't you fly? Yeah. I mean, it's maybe the points. Yeah.
More, more regret for, uh, for things you've seen. Yeah.
But I don't know. I should have changed, um, or what I, yeah, it was a great time.
Yeah. Yeah. Then it always changed stuff. When you have 20, 20 hindsight, couldn't we? Um, well, great arm and thank you so much. I, I really appreciate it. Is there a, we're, we're going to put the links up to your site and those fantastic videos, the
links with the videos. It's easier to understand. We just speak the podcast a bit difficult, but if you see a video where you see the cloud tree, and then I think about what I do next and everything, then it's a bit more easy. But just the main problem is that most of my videos are in, uh, in German, uh, just made a video about our new mezcal and also include some tips. It's about active flying, for example, and this one is in English. Maybe I do more in English future, but I'm not a native English speaker. I'm happy that, uh, hopefully I understand your questions, right? Oh, you
know, you did great. Um, perfect. We'll, we'll have those. And we, we do actually have a lot of, uh, German listeners, so that they'll appreciate that. And, but I'll, I'll put up all those links and, uh, we'll be in touch. I look forward to sharing the sky with you here at some point and arm and thank you. I appreciate your time.
Yes. Thank you. Pleasure. And greetings to everybody.
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