Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloudbase Mayhem. Got a great show for you today. Before we get into it, a little sobering lesson. A few pilots and I were down in the Ruby Mountains last week, about a week and a half ago, in Nevada, trying to do a very cool bivy, and we're mostly successful. This was Hans Urschmanek, a five-times X-Out pilot, and another local friend of mine, Willie Connell, who's doing the X-Pyr, and then Ben and I. And a couple other friends of ours that were helping us drive, and Ben and I were getting ready for the X-Pyr. I'm supporting, I was going to be supporting him this time around. He's supported me in the last two X-Alps, and as a lot of you probably know already, my other supporter, Bruce, had a very untimely accident.
He used to put it that way about a month ago. He's no longer with us. It wasn't a paragliding accident, but anyway, that's not part of this show. But anyway, Team USA 1 is kind of in... tatters right now, because Ben had an accident when we were on that bivy trip and broke his back. No cord damage, he's going to be fine, but he and I discussed it just this morning and thought it'd probably be a good thing to share with you all, because I get a lot of emails, almost every day I get emails from listeners in the show that say that something they learned or heard about saved their life. And that's what this is all about, is just spreading good knowledge. So I don't want to start this one off on a dark, bad note. But in a lot of ways, it was really good. I think he got super lucky, dodged a bullet, and he's going to be 100 % fine.
He's going to have a rough year, but I just wanted to talk about what happened in that accident, because accidents are never one thing, and it's always, you know, afterwards with 20-20 hindsight, we can pick out a whole bunch of things that I think will help all of you maybe avoid similar fates in your own flying career. So the first thing... The first thing was Ben broke the rule, and we both, you know, acknowledged it going into it. He was flying a new harness and a new wing for, you know, in prep for the X-Pyr. And part of that was just, it was conscious, you know, we knew that that was risky. You know, you should always just fly one bit of new gear first, and then always fly it at your home site in pretty predictable conditions and kind of get used to it. We were far from that.
We were in Nevada in the spring, and it was totally on. And so that was mistake number one, for sure. But he had been flying quite a bit this winter and was, you know, feeling pretty tuned up and just felt like he really needed to jump on this gear and get used to it before the race, which is, you know, a month away. So anyway, that was mistake number one. Mistake number two, the day before the accident, he'd had a really good first day, and then the second day, we all launched. I think there was five of us in the air, and it was quite strong northwest. And Ben made a move that can only be described as... Pretty young. It just was, you know, he was trying to keep up. He was, you know, thinking about flying with the gang. I probably under-recognized, you know, how much pressure that put somebody in.
And anyway, got himself in a pretty hairy lee-side situation with a lot of wind. And, you know, in retrospect, should have just dodged off the back while he had the height and gone out in the flats, and he probably would have beat us all. But top landed, that all went fine. Landed in some snow. He was landing backwards and did not get his wing down very fast, or I would say really correctly. You know, he tugged really hard on both seas, which is a common way to do it. But, you know, go back to the episode with Bell Belcourt where he answers a bunch of questions, and I talk about there, when you're landing in a lot of wind, I think there's a much better way to do it. We'll get into that right now. But anyway, kind of turned his wing into a parachute, and he got dragged into some rocks, and he was fine.
But did quite a bit of damage to the harness, and a little bit of damage to the wing. And then walked down 4,000 feet off the top of this mountain. And then that night, when we all got back together, put all the gear back together, and it was no problem. And it was fine, and speedy stitcher, and a bunch of line replacements and stuff, and repairs, and he was good to go. Again, in 2020 hindsight, what I failed to do was really check in with why he'd made that move. And we talked about it briefly, but we didn't really properly have a debrief. And we kind of laughed about it. And he said, you know, I was just flying. I was doing what you do, man. I was flying deep. And that wasn't deep. That was just kind of bad decision-making. And it would have been good for me to really check in with him and be like, hey, man, why did you do that? And, you know, it wasn't safe. It was putting yourself in a lot of unnecessary risk.
And there was just really no reason to be there. So fast forward to the next day, and on the way up to launch, we were in a totally different zone now, another place that none of us had flown at the south end of the diamonds. And clearly. It was going to be a very on, very good day. Proven a little bit later by Cody and Willie went a long ways, flew all the way up the diamonds and crossed to the rubies and did really well because they didn't know the accident had happened. And I failed to really check in with Ben. You know, I'm kind of his mentor and probably should have seen more of the signs and kind of had this internal discussion going on in my mind like, you know, God, I should find out why he did that yesterday. I should find out where his headspace is today. Maybe this would be a good day to just drink a beer and chase in the truck.
But I didn't want to put any negative thoughts in his head. And, you know, I know he's getting really excited about the race. And he really wanted to train and got a really good day. I think, you know, he would have said, yeah, man, I'm fine. I want to go. But I maybe would have recognized that he was probably a little bit nervous than he was either used to. Or I guess what I'm saying is, you know, never underestimate the amount of pressure that you can put yourself in when you're either with really good pilots or, you know, you're not going to be able to do a lot of things. You're going to be in a totally new place or with totally new gear. So you can see these things are starting to add up. Anyway, just by complete dumb luck, I launched first and bombed out. And then Cody and Willie launched and they struggled to get out but eventually did. Then Hansa launched and he also bombed out and then kind of slope landed and relaunched.
Didn't work again, kind of slope landed again. Couldn't really see him. We were just in this very kind of shallow draw canyon. And, you know, it was the middle of the day. It was definitely on but it wasn't crazy. And then I saw Ben blow a couple launches and then get off the hill and kind of missed a thermal and grabbed something. But anyway, wasn't able to dig out and for whatever reason went over by where Hansa was, decided not to top land there, flew kind of out this draw, later found out he was just, you know, trying to get up, just, you know, milking it and trying to get a low save. And I'm going to only guess here but I think two things contributed to what happened. One was, you know, it was a good day. It was kind of swirly and even though he was flying down out of this canyon and definitely the air was going up the canyon, as you would expect,
it was kind of swirly and I imagine just as he was getting kind of close to the ground, he was probably on the backside of a thermal and was watching his ground speed and saw that he was speeding up. And then inevitably, you know, I'm sure what happened is the day before with him damaging his brand new gear to go to the race, he was probably thinking, I'm going to stick this landing and I'm not going to go into the other. It was just sage everywhere except these two little tiny fields where cows had mowed it down and there was kind of a water tank and a fence so there were some obstructions. That was probably on his mind and I had just landed in one of those which he'd seen and so, you know, he got a big burp of air before he got to those and was going to overfly them and anyway, very low to the ground, like 30 feet off the deck, made a really dramatic, like 180 degree turn to land up the hill and, you know, because he's on this new wing, didn't know the stall point, hadn't done any SIV on it, spun his glider.
By the time he spun it, he was, you know, 20 feet off the deck. There was nothing he could do and it kind of pendulum him into the hill and hit pretty hard. I was sprinting before he even hit the ground knowing that this was not going to be a good situation. So the major lesson there other than all the ones I've already mentioned is, you know, when you're on final, even if it's downwind, don't change anything. If you're really low to the ground, that's not a time to make a real rapid, like a real quick decision like, oh my god, this isn't going to work out. If Ben had just kept flying straight, it was, like I said, a really shallow draw. He had a mile in front of him and he would have landed in the sage. Very unlikely done any damage to his glider, but certainly wouldn't have done any damage to him either, just would have taken us some time to get it out of there. And I'm sure he was just thinking like, I got to land, pack up my stuff and get back up with Gavin and go flying.
So a series of, you know, preventable mistakes there for sure. So just wanted to pass that along. I think these are, you know, these are some of the things that I've learned over the years. These are all little things, but of course they can add up and do a lot of damage. As I said, he kind of destroyed T8, T9, mostly T9, and totally stable. He'll have 100 % recovery. The surgery went great, thank goodness. Like I said, I think we dodged a bullet. I think the pressure of the X-Pyr was, I think he was a pretty new pilot to be taking something like that on. Just really wanted to have something to train for and shoot for. And we'd had so much fun in the X-Alps that, you know, it was, it was pretty easy to sink your teeth into something like that. But just another one of these things, like take it slow, take your time, make sure you've got all the kind of ground steps and all the base stuff that you need, all the foundation that you need.
Finally, this is more critique of me and, you know, I was first on scene and then we had Hansa and a good buddy of mine, Charlie, that were there, you know, minutes afterwards. Luckily we all had in reaches, which I can't, you know, we can't even do a project. It's like this with spots. So yet another push to make sure you're flying with in reaches. So you've got that two way texting, but we also had cell, we weren't too far from Eureka. So we got 911 on right away. We also had the in reaches to talk to the other people that were around us. The other EMS folks and the sheriff and when cell, cause cell was pretty patchy. So all in all, it took them about two hours to get a helicopter in there and get them airlifted out to Salt Lake, which is excruciatingly long.
It took a lot of time, uh, when you're, when your buddies on the ground and then a lot of pain. He also had a dislocated left shoulder, which was quite a bit of pain. So I mean, the first thing we did was we tried to just get him way more comfortable, cut all his clothes off, cut his harness off, get him covered in the shade, um, you know, make sure his spine was, was stable before we moved them at all. We knew it was broken, but so we were very careful about moving them into a more comfortable position. Um, but then a major screw up was that none of us had real drugs. I had grabbed the wrong first aid kit. I had my first aid kit, but I'd forgot to transfer the pills over from my backcountry kit to my BV kit. So all I had was like heavy dose Advil, um, which was just brutal, you know, knowing he had, he didn't have any head injuries, uh, and with my wilderness response training, he definitely could have, you know, I could have given him much better drugs to make him a lot more comfortable for those two hours when the helicopter arrived, that was the first thing he did.
But one thing I wasn't aware of is that, you know, EMS services came in by truck from Eureka relatively quickly. They were there at an hour and in Nevada, they're not allowed to carry any drugs. So go back and listen to that podcast with Matt Wilkes and stock up your first aid kit. Um, the other thing is just communications. We found out after this whole thing was done that Willie had a pretty proper first aid kit in his truck, which was sitting right with us. And we didn't know that. So there were really good drugs in there. So a little bit of failure communication on our part. Um, and then everybody, you know, Hansa, myself, Charlie, we all should be careful. We carry in, you know, decent painkillers to help people out on that. So I'm not a doctor. Like I said, go back and listen to that Matt Wilkes podcast. There are scenarios where you don't want to give narcotics to somebody, but, um, if it's not a head injury, uh, it really helps.
The other thing I didn't do was because mostly because he was stable and talking and not freaking out the whole time he was putting up with a lot of pain, but I also never checked his vitals and, uh, you know, I could see that he, his heart rate was fine and he was coherent and he was blinking and, you know, um, I didn't have anything to be worried about there, but that was one of the first things that the guy, when we got out of the hell, the paramedic asked for the EMS folks didn't, but he asked for that. Just, you know, it's nice to have a record or stuff, you know, every 15 minutes or so I should have been taking his pulse. I was pretty busy dealing with, um, you know, emergency services and all that stuff at the time and just trying to make sure Ben was comfortable. But anyway, just another push for you to get your wilderness first response training. I mean, the. The, uh, unfortunate reality of the sport is at some point you're probably going to be dealing with this kind of stuff.
And so the better prepared you are, the better, um, anyway, let's get on with this show. Sorry for that long preamble. I hope that just makes you think and helps some folks out and maybe saves some other people from having a similar terrible situation. Uh, this show with Fabian Blanco, I've been dying to talk to Fabian. Uh, he and I met several years ago in Annecy. He runs a school there. He's a fly. Yo, uh, does a lot of training on single surface wings, tons of SIV and like tons and tons and tons, uh, famous for it there. He really got into flying because of the mountaineering. So he's super into the lightweight thing and bivy. And so we discuss all of that and really from his perspective, from the instructor perspective, we talk about good students, bad students, and, uh, everything in between.
So I think you're going to get a lot out of this, uh, took us weeks and weeks to put this together with a bunch of bad connections and stuff. So I apologize. There will be some places where the sound isn't great, but it's worth sticking in there and listening to it. I think you'll get a lot out of this. So please enjoy this conversation with Fabian Blanco at Flyo, Fabian nod. This is a real honor to have you on the show. You know, we met a few years ago, you were so kind to host me at Flyo there in Annecy and showed some fun films and haven't seen you since, but you've been highly, highly, highly requested. Yeah. Thank you for having me on here. And I just recently saw your Patreon page where your team is releasing these incredible educational videos. So I think it's a really timely, uh, opportunity to talk to you about SIV and bivy and instruction and just all the things that your team is doing there in Annecy.
So welcome to the, uh, welcome to the mayhem and thank you for your time.
Yeah. Thank you for you, Gavin. Of course. Um, we can talk about the new evolution.
I've got partners now, new partners, very motivated and we have a lot of, uh, different news to, to do.
Yeah. Great. So let's, let's just start there. Uh, you know, give, give the audience, those that aren't familiar, just a real brief history of Flyo and maybe a little bit of your own history because I, I, you know, I know you're there and Dusard, you're in one of the most famous places to fly in the world. You're perfectly set up for, for SIV and for XCV. And you're doing some single surface instruction now, maybe just a real brief history. And then I'll ask you some specific questions about maybe we'll, we'll dig into SIV to begin with.
All right. That would take quite a lot of time. But briefly, um, I started Flyo now 12 years ago, um, just with a friend, which is my business partner because, um, just like business angel at the beginning. And, um, we just developed more. Um, private coaching because I'm ski instructors and also climbing instructors and, uh, uh, for coaching private coaching was, uh, w was good at him to, to find the progression for each people. That's why we, we ran that for a few years. We decided just to grow, to grow, just to have a shop because I used to work for Mac per technology. Um, we try to find, um, a good relationship with them.
And we just, uh. Have a little shop and the shop grow. And now we have a team and then we, um, we run to, to do a lot of SIV coursing also because I used to be, uh, Acro pilots. Um, I can see a lack of people of different kind of topics. Like if they have fears, they have, um, different, uh, wrong information from different kinds of people. And I wasn't trusting just to coach, um, individually people. Um, I, uh. And the way of SIV courses, it's the best way to, to do that. That's why we, we promote last, um, maybe six, seven years, more SIV courses, because for me that was the, the way of teach individual people much more precisely.
Yeah. So Fabian, tell me more about, you know, kind of the, how SIV has changed over the years and, and, you know, take me through kind of one of your typical courses. If someone. Yeah. If someone hasn't done any SIV, how, how does it all work at Flyo?
Yeah. There was a huge evolution since the beginning. Um, and now actually we're fly out to develop, uh, a philosophy, um, means, uh, our philosophy is based on fundamental things and not based on to do some maneuvers. Um, I explain myself. We develop basic, um, uh, fundamentals. Fundamentals on technique, uh, means, um, just to trust on your harness, just to, to, to understand for the people to break range and to use the full break range. We understand, um, also to push them just to have, um, um, visual, um, main visual vision of what is going on and not to have a narrow vision.
Um, also just to all that kind of basic stuff. We work. We work on the mantle also. That's why we work on the technique and on the mantle. We work more on the people on the pilot and less on the glider. Hmm.
Tell me more about how, how do you, how do you work on the mental side of things?
Um, because a lot of people actually, um, think they don't do something because the glider, um, it's, it's, it's quite scary, a lot of fear on, on their mind. We try first just to push themself on the stable position on the harness. And then when they trust on the equipment, we can work with them. It's just a little step on the mantle. We can work on the mantle. And then we have different other, uh, progressing step for the mantle just to realize, to push themselves on the, out of a comfort zone, but just little by little, because by to a long time ago, by the past. I saw the. Uh, instructors like, uh, uh, Don, uh, 10 years ago was to push people too much on maneuvers, but maneuvers was too difficult for them.
Um, they're not really realize, or they're not, they cannot reproduce by themselves after the course. And that's why we, we change our mind and we work more with, um, just, uh, slow progression, but to. Let them more understood about it. The basic or tiny, uh, um, just a tiny details has more important than the huge maneuvers, uh, to do it.
That makes a lot of sense to me. You know, our, our last guest that was just on the show, uh, that we, we just released this, uh, a few days ago, but Adele Honte was, was talking about, you know, that your, your mind, uh, in the beginning can't catch up to where, what, what is happening with your wing. You know, if you, if you have a cascading event and you throw your reserve and you're down on the ground and you have perfect memory, perfect recall of what happened and how it happened and where you went wrong, then, you know, you're, you're in control, but where most people don't have any idea they, well, it shot out in front of me. And then I, I don't know, it just, it all just happened too fast. And you know, you're not, in other words, they aren't trained to have understood, they haven't done it enough.
Yeah. To have really understood. So I, I like the idea of, you know, really slowing that down and taking your time. It must be, that must be quite fruitful with your students.
Yeah. And in two side, we have the commercial way, um, that's, it's, it's tremendous how the new gliders are safe, how the new gliders are fast, uh, a lot of performance, but the, just the commercial way forgot to say, you must have the basic skills. Technical and mental, just an analysis of situation to go through that and to just take advantage of those performance. And um, and that's the main problem because they trust more on the glider than they trust on them. And when the trouble is coming, they have no idea what's happened because everything goes fast. And when you're on the travel, the cascade goes and the problem after the cascade, um, it's, they cannot really recall.
Very safely because they don't know what's happened. That's why they come through us and we just explain them just little by little and we, we are just more like, uh, I didn't know, um, a surgeon for them.
I didn't know. So you, you break it all. You really break it down into the, into its various kind of, uh, parts and, and what's happening at, at each stage.
Yeah, that's true. That's why. So our evolution is we're really, whatever the levels, we had some different little tests for them. Um, for this little test, we can exactly know if they have a lack of different, uh, fundamentals like we described it. And if they have a lack, we have to push more on to work on that kind of fundamental. Then we can go further, but for all the level level for the French team, we trained for the team, for the British, uh, race Academy, for even for different level, we have a few tests. And with these tests, we can discuss with the pilot, um, and interest them to work on that, that kind of tiny points before to go in hard, difficult matters.
I
like that as well, because then you're getting some immediate kind of self-evaluation feedback. You're, you're, you immediately kind of know where you are. You know? Am I reacting too fast? Not fast enough. Am I reacting in the proper way? It really gives you kind of a baseline to know where to build from.
That's true. And sometimes think is, uh, people think, oh yeah, but it's natural for me. Okay. It could be natural, but there is some fundamental things. And if you have a lack in one situation, you will be in trouble. And if you, if you have this lag, you will not cover because you don't know what's going on. That's why. That's why we try to, for everyone to have, um, a simple analysis about the fundamentals. And if it goes right, uh, we can go further. But if it goes wrong, if you go fast and actually we can, in one step of a progression, we're going to have a problem, a trouble, and, and then we have just to return back on into the, the basis, um, the basis fundamentals.
So
tell me about the, the self-evaluation tests. What, what, what, for example, would that, would that look like?
Um, yeah, I define, um, it's really simple because in, in a manner of rules, like, um, simple, uh, just pitching or simple 360 with a rapid exit, I can see 90 % of the skills of the pilot. Uh, why it just, because, um, you have everything in that kind of thing. You just in how to introduce, uh, the rotation, if people can pull the break only, or can use a way shift and plus the break, or can make a roll of different thing like this or can do nothing. Uh, you can estimate, um, the engagement of, uh, the rotation, uh, if he goes slow, because for, for them, for all pilots, uh, who don't know really well for them, it's hard to estimate, uh, if they go fast in rotation.
If you go slow, because it's just their own estimation with this test, we can see that it's just doing by themself. Um, and we can see how they engage and they could see how they come out of the rotation as quick as possible. I asked them to go as quick as possible and to manage, but with them, they don't want to prove them themselves too much. Um, I can see the skill, how, what kind of technique they use to coming out. Um. And the mental aspects about that, um, some different, uh, tiny, um, a break range, uh, the break range. I can see how they use it and all stuff like this for sure. We're not pushing them on the hard drives power. We just have them just to do just one time enough and then coming out as quick as possible.
Just with the only tests, all the pilots, even the high level standard, I can really see the different failures.
Wow. That's amazing. So. So if you judging on that, when you go really more the kind of mental and rather than focusing on maneuvers, but, but really the fundamentals, you know, what, where, where is I, where is a student coming out ideally after their first SIV with you, where, where do you kind of hope to get them? Or is it just too individual? Everybody's different.
Yeah. That for sure. Everybody's different, but sometime they arrive with the big goal. You know? They arrive like to, I want to, to have a new glider. I want to test my glider. I want to test my new harness, my pod harness. When I explain how a philosophy, they can be not agree the first part, they're very interesting, but, but you know, we have to negotiate. But for sure, the trust on the instructor, the trust on, on my team and on me and they say, okay, well. Let's do it like this. Um, then how do we explain that is say, okay, you just show me that and we explain why, you know, 360 rapid exit or for sure will not tell them all it's because for analyzing yourself or something like this, we just tell them, okay, let's do it because rotation, if a glider just have a trouble in a thermal, or if you miss a thermal, if you're out of a thermal, if you have a collapse and the collapse will reopen for sure.
The glider will introduce to a rotation, a quick, but you don't want this rotation. That's why you ha you want to stop it. And if you stop it, you have the back page and you have to control a page and all stuff like this. That's why it's a basic situation. You can have million times in your flights, but that's what I want. I introduced this made like this. That's why we're going to work on that because it's really for us, the basic situation. And even in this basic situation, if you are. Get the great skills. If you, the mantle is quite good enough, we can go further because if you have a misunderstanding on another manner, for sure, the glider will make a turn and this turn includes a rotation and you must be able without to do no fear with just a reflex action, you have to coming out and we start again without you have to use the mantle potential, uh, decrease so much.
Um, after that, they are a little bit more agree just to take part of this philosophy. And then the action comes and after the first action, we have to negotiate very quickly or not, or we have to work on basic action. And that's why they, they go with us because they understand they have a lack and the dislike could be a trouble for the rest of the progression. Do
you run into, or obviously you do. How much do you run into, um, just students that are difficult to, uh, I'm trying to, trying to frame this in the right way. You know, people learn in different ways. Some people are kinetic learners. Some people can learn from books. Some people can only learn by seeing it. You know, what happens when you get a student to really struggles, you know, who, who really, uh, maybe, maybe they, they aren't listening or they. Can't they, they're not digesting the information or maybe they think they're much better than they are.
Yeah. Well, um, do you know, we really adapt about the different way of teaching for sure. Uh, this test, like a 360 rapid exit is really oriented to, um, people with the B plus glider or BB plus glider to see glider, uh, people with the a gliders most of the time, um, they have. They know. They know. They never really, rarely overestimating a level, um, they just want to learn some busy stuff just to go forward. But most of the time, um, uh, for sure people, all the knowledge or the experience they have, it's all the time positive. That means even if it's not on my way of steering, you know, I haven't bought a way of steering.
I have this psychologically, uh, you know, uh, um, a philosophy. Okay. But not really because if it's efficient, I don't care if he's doing with my, uh, technical with another, the important it's to have an efficient action and it should clear with the mantle with these mantle, um, both things, if they go, right. I don't care. Just it's, I just push to have efficient action and you have efficient action. You must be precise to be precise. You must know what is the, what are the fundamentals. Okay.
That's why whatever the level, if you are a beginner, if you're not well sit into your harness because you never moved before, I told them just to, to just feel the little ambulance, um, to get the best position, just to feel in balance out of a turn. If you feel in balance in central fish force and that's it, that will be a huge progress for them because they will feel no fear and they can start working precisely with the hands. But for the other pilots, I tried to convince them to change the position first to have a better, um, control with the hands.
When when is someone ready for their, their first SIV? When do you recommend somebody does their first SIV and then how often should it be repeated?
Um, to be honest, um, we had, uh, I don't know why it's, it's a year packing progression for our students. I mean, uh, during the year we have, uh, beginners and we push them, they follow our course during the year. Um, and for them, we have the first SIV over the water with the ambience and, and, uh, security area. Very, very soon. I mean, um, after the 20th flight, we go over the water, um, just to, just to experiment a bit of movement before to be in the, in the family. But it's easy for us just to push them because we are in the area and for our beginners, it's, it's a simple way just, uh, to, to put them in this situation.
But for other people, we ask them just to have a minimum, um, to be autonomous on the takeoff and the launch. In autonomous means don't spend energy to launch, don't spend energy to, um, to reach the landing safely. Um. And we'll look after them in the air. Why? Because if they spend a lot of energy on the takeoff, for sure, they will be not clear in their mind in the air. And for sure for the landing, we are not him. We are not here just to, um, help them at the landing because, um, that's why the minimum skills we need, it's, uh, a pilot, which is, uh, completely, uh, clear on the launch and on the landing.
And then we can adapt completely, but really adapt each flight, each days, um, the, um, the program completely. That's why the, just, it's important just to be as soon as possible because during past years, SIV, uh, SIV courses was just for two different, uh, topics. First people were scared and they had injured and they want to go further. And they want to go further. They want to understand more the glider. The second, our pilot wants to discover the new glider or the new equipment before the race season. Um, and that those two topics, um, they are not the right way of learning, you know, uh, it's more question of a progression and that we just more, we want to, um, to push more, uh, the, the development of the pilot instead of the glider.
Um, and it works and it works because I don't care if you have a red or blue glider, I don't care if you have ABC or CCC glider, it's just, if you can adapt all the skills, all the technique and everything, the mantle will be increasing. Um, you have, you're going to have a gain, but if, because you fly for five days or five years and you have a, because after five years you have to pass through a sea because everybody do this. Um, you're on the wrong way. You're on the wrong way.
Is, is SIV for everyone, Fabian? Like if you're, do you, do you feel like if you're flying XC, that's just part of the fundamentals that you absolutely need or as maybe is SIV not for everybody?
Um, do you know, um, SIV, it's not the only way of learning for sure. It's a, it's a part. It's a, I can't say the percentage. But maybe I can estimate it's a, we can imagine, um, for learning power gliding, you know, there is a part of technique, a part of mantle and a part of analysis. Um, we spend a lot of time. The technique is, it's, it's, um, you can acquire the technique very quickly. You can acquire the technique very quickly just to control your glider. Um. Um. Um, and, but if it's, if it's done on the right way of balance, um, the mantle will be, we do up and down very quick, uh, hop and down, and you will not understand why and you will not recover as well.
If the technique is well, you understand what's going on and then you can recover much more clearly during the flight or after the flight or after a little trouble. And that's why the technique of the mantle. Yeah. Could be, um, 50 % of, um, the progression. The other 50 is the flying and analysis. But if you have a great analysis, if you have a understand all the flow of the ROG to anticipate all the fam or to see all the different reference, you can get birds and what stuff like this. But if your technique is completely crap, the mantle during the flight will be down again. Um. And it will be hard for you to recover from, uh, a low, low part or from, uh, Lee side way because in cross country, you can be in the sun.
And for you, for you, that takes a lot, a lot, a lot of energy to recover. You can coming out, but that would take a lot of energy because the misunderstanding of this situation, it's that makes people travel. That's why for me, as I, the courses again, it's not the only way to learn. It's a pot of, um, you. You must go in some situations sometime just to learn something. It's like a gymnasium, you know, for me, it's like, um, it's like a technical gymnasium. It's like a bordering place for climbing. You know, you can reproduce different technique. You can not doing on the hard, long, uh, run, you know, in, in, in the rock. Um, that's why it's, yeah, for me, it's a, it's a gymnasium.
You just go here just for training specific things. Mm-hmm. Um, if you, if you think for you, you, you will, you want to learn your glider. That's good. But you want to learn on your glider, but also you want to learn on yourself. It's all the time like this, even for very, very good pilot, you spend a lot of time without flying. Um, you have a glider, the spring is starting and, um, we have to, we call, uh, when we open a bottle, we put the, the, I don't know how does it open the bottle. It make like, um, yeah, something like this and we call it the psychologically unlock. We have to do the first side of your first movement to unlock your, uh, your psychology lock during the water or during, uh, uh, you know, cascade you had the previous just to, to think, wow, I'm able to control again.
All right. My technique is there. Okay. I will increase my mantle and I can go forward. Yeah. Yeah. So without that, you have the people get trouble, uh, in, in their head, they talk a lot with talking in a bar, people talking a lot, talk a lot on bars and what they talk about collapse. They talk about the main, the main conversation talk about that kind of travel we can have. And but they never talk about, well, there was nice to fly there. Well, the feeling, the glide, my glider was just riding quite well. I see the birds and help me or something. I said, no, no, that's why mantle the mentally people just talking a lot about that. And that's crazy because when we are in a savvy courses, especially when we are here, we all thing is positive.
Whatever the experience of each day, we can learn to each other because if the people are got very big experience, can talk about different things. People with low experience can talk about different thing, but we all the time, very, very positive. Very positive about everything because when it's positive, you get, you have a gain of experience from the others. And if we talk and because, and that's why people like it because, uh, we're not talking about drama here. We just, we're just talking about just Paul gliding. Um, and they will really understand that we're going to talk to work on them, but not on the glider. And that's why now just talking about, uh, how many, uh, as savvy we need.
Uh, um, and, and I think I told you, it's important for each pilot to have done one aside. We just, you know, what's going on, just what we talk about, but how many we need now it's completely, uh, personal vision because it's for people, they need a lot just to have a gain of confidence because on this ambience on this, uh, the process we use on a side of course in that they helps a lot. But some people like me, I used to, or some other people, when they had a do a savvy costing, they take a lot of information. They can do it by themselves because we give them some exercises to do it after the course. Um, if the people are able just to do it in those technical doors, uh, exercises, uh, it's simple for them just to, to work by themselves.
But the lot of people. They never use it. They never use to do that. That's why they have to come back and come back and feel they will understand they're good enough, sacramentally and technically just to do it by themselves. That's why there was no rules after the first one.
Hmm. Fabian, I, I totally agree with your viewpoint on being positive and optimistic in the drama. We, you know, how many comps have I been to and you're driving up to launch and people are talking about this reserve toss and this accident. And so I don't, I don't want to get too, too dramatic. Cause I think that's terrible headspace for pilots to be in. But the re the reality is it, you know, you live in a place in Annecy where I'm sure over the years you've seen, uh, tons and tons of accidents. Let's just talk about that briefly. You know, what are the most common, say the top three, uh, reasons that accidents happen and, and, and how could they be avoided?
Um, the first we can see is a rotation. Um. Um, the starting in rotation and, um, the concern, the rotation to the ground and, um, the other things are, uh, do you mean like a spin? It's spinning. Yeah. Okay. Sorry.
Go ahead.
No, no, no. Spin rotation. Yeah. 360. I think they go into the glider. Most of the glider actually are very safe, but sometimes they deflate it and the deflation push glider that when the opening, they push on a roll and the people are a little bit scared to open the deflating part. Yeah. But the deflating part is diving. That's why they try just to put the hands and, and, and then they start to be in a rotation, you know? Um, if they're close to the ground, they touch the ground or they touch trees or here in the trees. Um, some of us are the thing of pilots. We are some good thermals over here. And sometime we have clouds everywhere, a golf, the, the, the landing or the different area.
Um, they, they try just to do some 360, um, they can not, it's a steep climbing and they try to put that thing to come down. Um, they lose the control by the centrifuge if they're, they're scared of the centrifuge and they coming out on the rapid exit, they can not control the pH and they're not because they don't know how to control the pitch just because they completely lost themselves about the centrifuge. You cannot estimate the, even a glider can turn as quick as that. Hmm. Because they never do that. First things. Um, um, the second thing, the third thing, um, the first thing is rotation. And the third, second thing is spins. Um, we had, we have a lot of, um, problem of pilot, um,
just this cat just to push, put the hand down, you know, just for turning the glider, but they want just to get the thermals late in the day or the lost them. Or just to stay more longer in, in the air and the spin the glider because they just feel, feel the instability into the harness and they try to recover in the hands. They are already in low speed and they just make the spin, but some of them don't know what is the difference between the 360 rotation and the spin. That's why they think they start the rotation and they start the spin. Um. And the problem with the spin is weird sensation.
If you put the hands up, like everybody say, if you high enough, you have changed to recover and the thing they realized a good thing. Um, but if you don't high enough, you touch tree. Um, the most accident we had because they've got a French statistic, um, those that's two parts rotation or close to the ground or in the air or, and, uh, and spin. Hmm. Um. That's why, that's why in SIV coursing courses, we are really, really based on those two because those two, the first thing, the rotations you work on the technical, you must work on a technique just to, to, uh, squeeze your, um, your handle and not, it's not, uh,
it's just adaptable 360. We call it regulates. You can regulate and play with the handles. People don't think you can regulate, you know? Um, the, and also because it's a thing, they're scared, uh, they have a lot of history of trouble about a lot of accidents and they say, and for them, it's, it's, it's a huge, huge things, you know? Um, and spin also, it goes a bit further because spin is, um, is, is a little bit tricky as you know, because different glider can, can store different glider can be on spin. And for us, when you fly in different condition, you can have spin, but if you recognize there is no trouble in any way, but the people or the, the thing, spin is dangerous and they think they will avoid it without just to push the hands down.
But that's wrong because in different situation on dynamic situation, you can span your glider as quick as possible without you push your hand and so much down and we have to explain them. We have to really, really explain them. Uh. Um, that those two situation. That's why we are based on that both, uh, and the other accident, unfortunately are completely different. That's why we have to, on our school, we push on that. It's the landing. A lot of people don't know how to approach a landing field and that's why it's a connection for BV flying or single skin courses like we do. We are very, very focused on how to land. In, in a field because people think that after 20 flight, they feel, they feel natural to land.
Uh, but landing is not natural. You need to per se, a procedure, uh, you need a process procedure. You need an, an analyze of the position you have to analyze a lot of things and, and every time and you, you know, more than another people because you have a lot of huge experience of BB flying. Or, uh. Uh, cross country flying. If you are in the official landing, everybody landing on one side, it doesn't mean it's a good site, especially also in, uh, where we are when we push pilots just to land on different side, different area very often because that puts them fail to have a self analysis and not to follow a group and not to follow some board was just right.
Like something like this. Um, and that's what. Why? Why a lot of people just got, um, they just follow like cheap, uh, and the landing and they say at the last part, Oh my God, I'm the wrong side and they start to initiate a turn and the crash themselves. Um, that's the main problem actually in France. Um, that's also, um, uh, our topics to, to push in our school actually.
That's really interesting. So I, you know, hearing it from you makes perfect sense. But statistically. Yeah. me that you know, of course I, I knew that it would be not controlling a proper turn or spiral, and then a spin, and then landing contributes to a lot of accidents. But I would have thought, statistically, like you know, flying in conditions that are above your skill level, or you know, blowing a crosswind launch or something would lead to more accidents. But that's, that's really interesting that it's more these kind of basic fundamentals that are, that are, uh, being screwed up. That, that's interesting to know that, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, that's why, because we thought with the new evolution, a lot of people are flying Xeno, a lot of people are flying high-performance gliders, but most of the accidents are coming, uh, I think the high percentage are coming with that three things, and not because they have a huge collapse to recover a crevasse for thousand meters, it's just because it's not—was it? Was not on the lee side, and he and he made the trouble, is it? All most of the stories are like this, actually. Um, and we, we think we change our mind last few years, uh, because um, we, we, we used to do like, you know, the the SIV courses, like doing maneuver, for doing maneuvers, and we changed a little bit last few years about just be more clear with to explain people what are the fundamentals to help you in some situations, um, and also to push them just to assume some, um, you know, some to assume the centrifuge force, even if you are a gliders, if you are, even if you have a B glider, people think, oh yeah, I fly in C for many years, but now I need a B because um, I feel less confident or something, but
Aerodynamic behaviors are exactly the same, and we whatever, if you want a gliders or CCC gliders, if your skills and technical and your mantle are completely crap, it will be the same results.
You're gonna crash on the A2, I like that.
um no but You know, to be honest, a lot of people say, yeah, you flying, I have a million people coming with Xeno, a million people are coming with the CN. Sure, they haven't got the proper skills to control the gliders, but I don't care because for them, it's important to, to talk to them about themselves and not about the glider. The glider has got two handle and a sit; we just have to know how to use it. But if it's whatever it is, red and blue, you know, I don't care. It just, we have to work on the self-estimation of the pilots more than on the glider. And for me, we're gonna have a huge, it's like on the car, you know, there is still have many accident on the car and we, but we, we have to educate more the pilots than we, uh, then we put some different radar on, on more cops.
Now we have to educate more the pilot; that's why we try to push in our philosophy.
Great, Fabian, let's switch gears here a little bit, because I don't know of anybody else doing this. I'm sure there, there are folks, but um, you're teaching single skin gliders now. Um, I, I fly them a bit, but I'd like to get your, your take on it. What's, what's different about that education? Uh, what's, what goes into that kind of, those fundamentals versus a standard wing, um?
Yeah, why um, my story, I'm um alpinist and a rock climber and I like to spend time in the mountain, but I'm getting old and I want to come down by my my foot because my knee is hurt, but not really, but I want to save my my body and I love far gliding and by the pass our mountains uh glider was too heavy or uh take too much uh place on our bags. That's why we give up most of the time to take them, except for very basic courses in the mountains. Um, when uh I start to work on the development which I had signed uh four or five years ago, um, um I was so happy to see this single skin, you know, um, and uh say, "Wow, that will be a huge evolution for us," uh, for uh, for running in the mountains without a big bag.
And that's what my only way was, just that less weight, but also less a compact bag. Uh, I can, I can't take every every time. And then um, the first I had was the xx light, for sure, from Ozone and a flaunt one or two years like this, and it was just fantastic, but the performance was not good and um, and the skills um was a little bit tricky for all the people. And when uh Edison proposed me just to test gliders and to to work on that, I was very happy, but the only way for me was just to have a simple, a bit more performant, but a simple with a lot of uh break range and um as compact and whatever it was will be not as light as the other, but I would like a compromise just to be easy in the mountain.
Um, well, the UFO came out and the skin came out and that was a huge, huge progress, huge progress compared to uh, um, compared to uh, the xx light. Um, well, after because we push on the the topics with the UFO because I know more the the air design, uh, I really want to have really simple gliders, the simplest, uh, uh, the simplest because mountain conditions are difficult and if we have a little more difficult glider that takes a lot of skills, um, most of I knew most of alpinists will just uh Want to do it again. Trailers and something like this, and they will be attracted to that kind of new sport, or a new feeling of movement of in mountains.
And our, our goal was just to make the easiest, the simplest, and the lightest possible. And the UFO was great, and I was very, very, very happy. And my goal was to my girlfriend, she's doing a lot of alpinist and she's a rock climber also, but she was so scared under the XX light. And when we do the prototype developed the the UFO, she was so happy to fly with. And now I could find in my, in my home, because she's all the time, she's all the time flying with. And that, that was yes, history. That's why, um, well, when my girlfriend starts you to fly with this glider, I would say, well, it's possible, really possible, just to, um, to teach people with, um, I do a lot of things during three years with beginners, you know, in normal of normal gliders.
I just provide this glider on a bit, basically, on the, on the training hills. And, and people was very surprised as it was easy to launch, it was easy to carry up from the training hills, it was easy just to get a control of it. And their feeling was, "Wow, I want to fly now." And look at my friend, they need more time to control. And with this glider, it's, it was very easy. But for, for sure, we hesitate to leave them to beginners because it was not on the way of teaching power gliding. But I do a lot of tests during a few, few years, and I had a story about one, one guy was, he came with his, um, with his son, he's got 50 years old, and it was not really a sport people
Not very coordinate, and his son was really good. And well, I decided just to give them a UFO and just to say, "Yeah, let's try, let's try, let's have fun," because he had a lot of failures on the training hills. And at the moment he took this glider, he was his smile come back and he was just perfect. It was just perfect. All the stuff was perfect. It was really successful for him, for his mantle, and for, you know, you know, for it was so happy and he can play, he can play for me. It was just a test, but he was happy to play with the others and to have a really successful, um, rather than his age, you know? And we continue like this the whole week long, and for him it was natural, you know?
Um, but for us we were in front of something because we know, um, there is a different specific thing on a single skin you cannot find on, um, on the normal gliders. That's why we had to explain afterwards, um, what are the difference? And he said, "Well, I don't care. I'm going to buy a single skin. I want to, I just want to fly down the mountain." It was just nice and, um, and then we decide just to make some single ski course specifically, uh, because, uh, we knew it was safe, we knew it was easy, but, but also we can work more on different other topics than a normal course. And we tried just to develop a single skin course, and we tried to develop a single skin course a lot more that those, those kind of course for a few reasons, uh, because we are in, um, I have a lot, a lot of friend mountain guides and climbers, um, they are and trailers are very attract to just to play in the mountains, like people do some, uh, speed flying, people do some, um, you know, wingsuit and all stuff, and it's for them, it's a new, um, new fashion, new things, uh, to do it
And uh, and also for most of the climbers and um, uh, most of the mountain guides, something like this, uh, it's, it's a new creation help them just to come down the mountains, uh, and to save themselves on, on for the knees or something like this. And that's why we attract a lot of friends. We do a lot of benchmark, uh, camps, uh, with friend climbers or high mountain guides, and it was a real success, and it was a real success, really.
with the single skin gliders, really, really meant for kind of the basics, basically launching and having a sledder nice flight down and landing. You're not, you're not really teaching them to use them and and in more dynamic ways. It's, it, you're, you're, you're teaching them to use it as a descent tool, exactly.
Well, basically, we just do that. That means, um, the difference I'm going to talk about, the differences, um, the easy launch, you know that it's, it's just perfect. Um, you can feel the lift very quickly. Um, you can have a really short space to launch, um, but you have to run it has a normal glider, but it's, it's the potential to miss, uh, launch is really rare. That's the first thing that you extract yourself from the mountain. It's very easy and, uh, well, to reach the landing, at this glider was less spec ratio, um, less inertia because single skin there is, um, no, there is no air pressure in it, no air, um, imprisoning it.
That's why there is less inertia everywhere, um, it that most of a single skin are traversing turbulence much more easily than a normal glider and Uh, that's why, uh, that's a lot of people just traverse a little bit of turbulence easily, thermal or little rough conditions. And, um, the difference between the two is that the difference between the two is that the difference is, uh, for the approach is the same approach as a power glider. Um, the aspect, the, the, the ratio, the glide rate, because for pilot like you, uh, power gliders has got some references, and for sure when he's flying single skin, you say, "Wow, what the hell?" Uh, but for pilots who just begin on that, you know, if you start learning, uh, driving with a Ferrari, you learn on the Ferrari and you don't know anything else, you just adapt yourself and learn how to control it.
When we just teach people completely new on this sport, you have no experience, another thing, and everything goes right without thinking, different thing, differently. That's why they just take it and just adapt themselves. If the launch is like this, the, the glide ratio is this, um, we just for the landing, it's pretty easy too because Uh, they have no other experience. The difference is when you are a power glider and you want to become a single skin pilot, because the power glider think, "Uh, oh yeah, I've got an amazing glide ratio. This glider go down? Oh, that's shit." And um, if I—when I—when I'm turning, it goes very quick on the side.
I'm so scared. And or blah, blah, blah, blah, different, different things, which is not really a good thing because if you are, and the landing—oh, the landing, there is no flare out, or you—I crash every time. It's completely shit. It's completely shit. All right, I listen a lot of things like this, I don't care. But um, I have the proof. Or during all my camp I've done with beginners, no one has land on the back, no one has uh has got a trouble in the air, no one has uh has been some inner divertation without any control, no one has got collapsed, and all the stuff like this, I just push and put everything on on the on the on the truth you say, well, it's just a question of adaptation.
It's just a question of adapt yourself and you will see, the life will be better. Why a lot of people crashing in the landing we talk about, uh, in the air it feels sensitive, but for sure it feels sensitive because the size are smaller and, uh, the light equipment, you can you can compare for your x-type glider to, uh, I don't know if you've flown, I'm sure you've flown on the peak four or something like this, uh, because you're flying it, is that true? Yeah, and um, and uh, the the difference inertia between those gliders is very, it's huge, it's huge. A light equipment is a little bit more, um, you know, a radical feeling, very quick, but it's not going, it just, it feels sensitive, very quick, but then
happen in a peak four or like you, uh, flown or in the race glider with the very hard materials, um, it feels more heavy above the head, but then when the movement is going, it feel big, big inertia every time. It's completely different feeling, and well, what we the feeling we have on a single skin, it's even more, uh, impressive because you have no air in prison, that's why you have no inertia, and it's really, really light, and it's really, um, even action, it feel moving on a side, moving forward, but it makes people scared, yeah.
My, my, my first, my first few flights on a, uh, on a single skin, I, I felt naked. I just felt like I was like, there was nothing up there, and it just felt really, it felt really bizarre. But like you said, once you adapt, then they're just terrific tools and
What a thing, what in the for pilots? That's why we, we push on the
We push on our courses, on beginner courses, like a normal. For them, it's a tool. We don't think, we never talk about them, about that kind of different tiny details, like a paraglider thing. We never talk. It's just a tool. Fly, man. And they don't see the difference. For them, it's natural. And the landing, it's natural, completely. And we have maybe one fail on the back in one field because that's normal. We have to. But 90 % I can assume, 90 % they land on the foot every time, every time. That's why we make a difference. That's why we do a lot of tests with the students.
We define a different pedagogy about that because it's an easy tool. It's really, really easy to walk with and to climb. Climb in the mountains and to land properly and to fly properly. Now, we were more focused on that kind of camps are how to approach a landing, but not an official landing, a landing. Because by the performance, we know it's not as good as another one. We know now most of the area, like we are flying in Anasipa, the landing field is quite. By far, we need a lot of glide ratio, but if you have the wind against you, even a normal glider can not reach the landing, but even more singles in.
That's why, that's why our, our approach are okay. It's easy to launch. We know how to launch. It's easy in the air, no trouble, but we are very focused on how they understand the, the, the space in the air. How they. Analyze is the situation to approach, which side of which you approach a kind of approach. Should you choose the different adaptations because they're not scared. It's easy to launch and we push them all the focus on to create them to understand, and just to be intelligent landing and not as cheap landing.
And we were very focused on that because for two reasons. One is, we, in this case we somehow minded this one and the two following reasons. We're just, we are Marta. But the other reason maybe in particular related to, to artificial sight, we can only electric ng on new aircraft, right? We can only can, and, and, it's forgot, we can flights almost like we, we can fly a flying train, you get on a ubunt nos. Be. Get off, jump into space. Did I recap? What some jobs you're doing.
We'll focus on that, and it's easy with this kind of camps because there is no problem for them on the take off. That's what the only thing they have to think is just to to build the approach, to build the approach and to land properly like this, because we push them and we trust them to say, "Okay, well, that's a big landing, but maybe we'll find a small landing." And a small landing, you must be much more precise on that, and they're very concentrated on that and very interesting to see the different situations and to adapt this different situation and this technique on different areas also.
That's why, even for beginner course and single skin, we try nearly each day to change the landing nearly each flight.
Fabian, are there? We kind of learned in the early days of the mini wings and speed wings that people started using them, and well, they still do, but hopefully this is being done less and less as information travels and accidents add up. And the mini wings and speed wings pilots were often using them in the middle of the day and getting in real trouble with thermals, and these are typically pilots who haven't done any SIV, and then they're flying wings that really aren't built for thermaling. You know, they're not cross country gliders, they're not paragliders in a sense that we think of as, you know, normal sized paraglider. Are there things that like that with the single surface wings? You know, I've heard of people flying them pretty sizable distances cross country.
In my flying with a single surface glider, I have never considered that It just doesn't feel right over my head. Are there things that shouldn't be done with single surface gliders?
It's very weird for me. It's a paraglider, but it's more tool than a paraglider, because I have so much experience in other gliders to say, well, I use my cross country glider just to make some cross country. I use my B-Wack gliders because I want to hike and have a nice cross behind and walk a little bit. I'm so, you know, spoiled about that. But if I love, and I love every day because I work on the building every day, and I have a lot to do each day, a run, I use my single skin just to make a run. And if I'm on top of the mountain, it's possible to fly at that time, I will fly, you know, instead of to running down, but for the moment just to make, you know, I don't know how they explain to make shout people to stop shouting about single skin.
I made a nice cross country around the lake with my 14 square meters. the Tour du Lac, the big Tour du Lac, the 42 square meters for sure. I need a book to read during all this cross country, but I made it and it was just perfect, you know? And it was just, just nice, you know? It was because it's flying, it's pretty safe, it's easy handling on the thermal, it's fantastic. Just between two thermals, you need to have the thermal should be very close, but except that, except that if you have a reach, if you have a reach, you can follow the reach, you can do a lot of soaring. But if you cannot, compare to a big Four or a Zeno or an Enzo, if you not compare, if you're just in the air, happy to be in the air, you just play with your tour, you know?
It's just Your hammer, it's good to be used for open, also a bottle of beer. You know, you use this tool for that. It's not the proper, but it works. Yeah, actually, it's very hard. It's very hard for me just to... I could not say. I'm not in the right position to say, well, this glider is for using for that. This glider is using for that. This glider is for using for that. Just have fun in the air and use your glider as possible as potential as you can. That's why for me, if I had one glider, maybe at that time I will have my light BV glider because it's enough performance to do crash country.
It's very light to climb and to hike and to have a lot of fun for different acros, different things, but it's not as good just to do some technical climbing, but it's good to climb up to the Mont Blanc and fly from, you know, but I have to choose just to have a really light one and and my bivouac because the really light one I can climb hard routes and come down with this route and I can... I'm not scared just to to give up from a flight because it's really light under my back, and I can come down by foot. And for me, it's to a fabulous tool, and we have to use as a tool and not as a lot of people say
you you're not able just to do something with that or you're not able to do some soaring. I just do some down, of course not you, you, it's a tool, is a flying tool. You know, you have that, don't regret, you have that. A lot of people regret it. Oh yes, our to the arts amazing. I miss my Xeno, I haven't got my Xeno, I don't care, just fly what you have and have fun in the day, explore. Perfect, perfect. The potential is on you, not on the glider, not on the glider and just, just the last information three, this winter was not flyable. It is just an example, but I'm not really flyable in our country, and last Saturday, and it was a fantastic spring day, and and I had just my bivouac glider have a white, and I just walk on a mountain, and I see why it was fantastic, and I did 250 K you know, in the day, but this is the morning I was so happy to do it, but the morning I was taught in the air with a lot of and so free and the two first transition it was going fast I
Can't go faster than I can't have the same performance, but in the end of the day, they don't 210 and I don't 250. And what the hell, you know, it's funny, you know? Of course, they choose different routes, but I have a lot of fun. I have nice country, and and the day was just was just nice for all of us, you know? And for sure, when we're flying and you have the same skills and we're flying against all that kind of glider, you can compare, say, "Oh shit, you can, you can blame yourself," but don't stop blame yourself. You're just taking taking easy in the air and just just flying give the maximum potential of yourself and the glider will give it to you for sure.
That's, that's just a terrific story and great advice, because I think that that's a very common fallacy and frustration for pilots, you know, when they take off on glide. I had a very similar, when we met and I came and showed that video at your place. This was, gosh, it was during the Koopa car years, at least four or five years ago, is way before the first ex-alp, so you know, I think I was flying the Arctic, then the Niviuk Arctic, and I took off from one of the granola air. It was one of the beautiful sites south of St. Hilaire, and we were going to try to fly back to Annecy North, so it was, you know, it wasn't a long flight, maybe a hundred k or something. And on the first transition over Grenoble, I think maybe, you know, that the guys I was with, this was back in the and the ice peak six and Enzo, maybe one or two days, you know, I, I just completely lost them on glide and and we came into the ridge above St.
Hilaire, and they were so much higher and farther ahead, and you know, but at the end of the day, my friend and Bruce Marks, we were both on arctics. We both went quite a bit farther, and and you know, it took us a lot longer to get there, but in in a lot of ways, I think we had a more interesting day. You know, it was—it wasn't racing, it was—it was just enjoying the the france. You know, it was just an amazing flight and such an incredible experience, and you know, I I think that that's, you know, I I think we get lost in the numbers and the in the the competition and the, you know, we we and and that's the the end game. The end game, there is—it sucks because you there, you you end, you're done, you you can't just keep pushing that because and then there's nowhere to go with the sport.
You know, eventually you you've gone as far as you can go and you've you've done the comps and then what? You know, so if you don't enjoy all the different aspects, you know, the single skin and the acro and the all the things that our sport has to offer, then it gets boring. It's it's not fun anymore. I
Agree, I completely agree. I think they've all—the pilot actually forgot what is the essential—just to be in here is just fantastic. And then it's plus, and it's, it's um, and they all, everybody compare, everyone to compare competition for everything. Um, what I'm, I'm very frustrated every time for about two questions from my guests. Are first question is, "Fab, I want to change my glider. Do you think this glider is safe?" What the hell? How can I, how can I make an answer about that? You know, I did many times. You know, if they built people, engineers, test pilot, very good skills, make gliders and they sell in the market, you think it's because they're good or do you think because it's that crap?
I say, "Oh shit, of course they're probably good." Oh yeah, you got the response, yeah, you got the answer. And that's the first question I say, "Oh, it's completely stupid." Um, and the second answer is, "Oh, Fab, I test this glider and I compare to my other gliders and my friend wasn't beside to me and it was shit performance," and they say it's good performance. To say, "What kind of thing? Do you have the same load range? What the flying, uh, side was completely same atmosphere and all stuff." Of course not, I was not. And all the time, this is nothing to compare. It's, it's not good, you know? It's, uh, and you have a lot of people who's got bad behaviors, um, and and for them to to explain them to test a glider is not that, you know?
And you know, it's not your job, job. It's already test before, yeah? And, uh, that's why you're not going to answer to be better. It may be to ask the question, what kind of MS you were, or maybe not push the same as that, and as him and different, different other questions, but they want to explore the thing. The gliders make the difference all the time, and the philosophy just to to be in the air and to play with the air mass, yeah? That's, and if you play with the air mass, for sure you're going to have the potential to
Do everything that's that's one of my, that's one of my greatest frustrations is, is that exact thing that you do. You know, you have these pilots that they change their gear three times a year and they're, they're never, they're never satisfied and it's, and it's, you know, it's like, well, that, that, that guy's definitely, you know, he's faster than I am. He's, he's gliding better and, you know, I, I get asked all the time from people like, "Hey, can you introduce me to Niviak? I will, you know, I think I could be sponsored." And I, I really don't like doing it because there's no, there's no loyalty, you know, that, that person will fly the Peak Four and love it and just think it's the most, the best wing in the world and then someone will, you'll get a little better glide on one of the glides on the, on the Xeno and then they switch, they sell their Peak Four and they go to the Xeno and, wait a minute, you're missing the point, you're missing the point.
We're just, we're just having fun. It's supposed to, if it's not fun, there's no point in doing this.
but it's, yeah, so
Well, listen, I, I...
Agree, but it's every time like this, it
Is it? Is that's just... that's the nature of people. Hey, Fabian, before I... before I let you go, I... I really want to talk to you about bivy because, you know, I... I was watching your video, uh, your great video on... on Patreon, uh, the flyo educational videos you guys are going to be putting out, and I know that you... you teach bivy. You're also very passionate about bivy flying. Um, we... we get a lot of requests from listeners of the show about, you know, how to get into bivy flying and what kind of gear should I use and, uh, you know, how do I approach it safely? Do you guys do courses in bivy flying or how do you approach that side of the sport all?
Right, well, it's on the project for next autumn. We're going to have the first, um, we're going to have the first, uh, courses for Bivy. Well, it will be benchmark. Well, our idea, it's, um, because for me, my heroes are you guys when you're doing some exile because
Um, it's a... it's fantastic because you're flying a huge distance, you're flying in all conditions, you're not looking at the forecast, you just walk, walking in in the condition of a day on the take off of the day, and you find it all the time, a solution, adaptation, and it's... you have to give up a lot of time and you have to enjoy the flights every time you fly, and it's just the philosophy is just brilliant because you are most of the time alone, and you have some time with another people, but you have to think, and there is nothing to help you, nothing to talk, no instructor to take off, no instructor nor flags on the landings, just to tell you what to do. And for me, it's the best, the best things, um, and that's why we try in during the single skin course to have the same mentality, um, we would like to push the same mentality on bivouac flying.
That's our goal. It's just a bivouac, like the single skin, or just, uh, you know, uh, example to push people to what? To push to understand what is the fundamental things? It's not performance. It's not, uh, to have the best glider, the lightest glider. It's just to enjoy and to think differently. Ball bivouac is just a mentality, and it's just enjoy the moment. Don't talk about performance, because we talk a lot of exalt, exalt. It's crazy for good skills pilot like me, because wow, I can see how kind of engagement in in in preparation you did to do that.
But the people look like a fucking amazing performance without preparation. You prepare a lot to do that. You, you, you, you do a lot of things to do that. And and the things are not for them. That's the first thing. Um, every time when people think bivouac, they think, "Oh, I want to make crash country just behind," and that's why I need the light and performance glider to do that now. That kind of people would try to, to text them to tell them, if you are a middle of nowhere out of your official site, you will see, you will think completely differently because you will don't know where you're going to land. You don't estimate the glide ratio, you just have to think differently and maybe the best performance glider, even and the best cross country glider, the lightest will not change about your attitude to land properly to analyze the situation.
That's why, um, that's why we are not really, will not be extremists on the first bivouac. We are here to educate them to enjoy the mountain and to have the right safety attitude in front of the mountain area I
think there's what the beauty of of bivy flying to me is. There's, there's so many different levels, isn't there? I mean, in Europe, you can, you can drive up to the top and and launch and fly down to the valley bottom and have a nice sandwich and a coffee and and uh and maybe, you know, hike a little bit or take the gondola up and spend the night on the top of the mountain and fly down the next day and and you've done a bivy. You know, you can also cross the Alaska Range like I did and take 37 days, but you know, there's, there's, there's, there's many different levels and I, you, when you were just talking, it made me think of an analogy I used to say a lot in my, in my sailing days and, you know, the kite surfing expedition that I, that's still going, but we used to have this saying that, you know, a sailboat is safe in harbor, but that is not what sailboats, that's not what boats are built for.
You know, they're built to go out and explore the world, and but most people never do. Most people stay in the harbor, and I think with—I think the analogy fits there with with bivy flying because it's, you know, you improve so rapidly because you're suddenly, you, you're assessing everything on your own. You're, you're flying a launch maybe that you don't know anything about, or you know, it maybe has never even been used, or same with LZ's, and you're having to—you don't have weather information, you're just having to assess and be a pilot, you know, and just and use the skills that you have, yeah, uh, to to to do something that's just—it's what it's what our wings are built for, is to travel. And and I think it's, uh, I think I I've been trying to be very encouraging to to pilots, even low-hour pilots, because like I said, you don't have to—it doesn't have to be the X-Alps, it doesn't have to be Alaska.
You can do it in there. In Annecy is a perfect place to fly, you know, to have a great weekend bivy and, uh, and end up at the lake and have a coffee, yeah.
It's true, yeah. Excellent, yeah. That's true. We are more instructor than adventure people, like you. That's why, um, we just want to, um, to teach what we, what is possible to teach, basically. I mean, um, the first thing is, uh, we're going to talk with them about how to organize the pack, how to organize one or two days, uh, autonomous, like food, water, and all stuff like this, to push them to read, uh, the path on maps, just very basic stuff. And there will be enough in press and not enough organized just to follow our, uh, advices about that, um, and whatever the, the level we need, we need a minimum level.
That means, uh, they should be quite autonomous on the flying side to take off and land. In the easy area, because in Iran, ansia like, you know, it's pretty smooth to take off. We have big valley, there is no risk, nothing. That's why it helps for us just to introduce bb flying for that. And um, the other thing is, uh, we would like to to push them to go in the top of the mountains and to teach them just the essential things for camping, bivouac flying close to the the safe area to do not disturb them too much.
But you have no idea of what's what's happening when there is, uh, when it's a little bit raining, when you have a little bit of moisture in the morning, when you have wind, and just that kind of things. How do you repack in a day? How you dry stuff? Just easy things, yeah.
That's great. And so you, you kind of force the the skills that they have and push them a little bit—not too much, but you push them a little bit to to gain more skills. And I, I think that what it sounds like is you're really pushing people to be more independent pilots, which is how you learn. Yeah,
Um, um, the thing is, um, for them, when they fly on a federation site, they know where they start and they know approximately when they land. When they start to do crash country, they know where they're going to land, and they know where they're going to land and they're going to be able to use the film to reach the base. But actually, the adventure seems very different on the BB because we will push ahead, um, because it's not known by themselves, they'll be scared. Um, that will be interesting, uh, very interesting for them to be coaches by, by instructors just to, to anticipate a bit more, uh, days after days like this.
great, Fabian. Hey, last question, because I've already taken up so much of your time, and it's, uh, taking us a few weeks to, to be able to hammer this out with our poor connection and stuff, but we've got—I've got a good one. Now, so um, I was just reviewing before we got back on the line, well, an email I got from Ed Ewing where, uh, one of the one of the readers of the magazine asked him that he he'd heard about on the mayhem about stalls and how we've had a few acro pilots on the show that have the there seems to be this magic number of 300 stalls. which is a lot more stalls than most people ever get, um, unless you're an acro pilot or, you know, pretty dedicated cross country pilot and do a lot of SIV, uh, but that does seem to be kind of the number.
And, you know, obviously in your first SIV, you might get to the point where the last day you get a few stalls, but what—what do you encourage your—your SIV students and your more serious cross country pilots to get? Because I recently did a survey at a comp I was in down in Mexico, where I was giving a talk, kind of a safety talk, and showing some of the videos that Seiko and Charles have been putting out there in Annecy about, uh, SIV and and and doing acro stalls on on high-end gliders on two-liners and, uh, you know, I surveyed the room and these, there were a lot of good pilots there and none of them had done 300, well, other than me, because I, I take it pretty seriously. But, but, uh, what do you think about that? And what do you think about that? And what do you think about what do you recommend? And and what do you do?
You do you find that that the thinking there from some of the acro guys was that you know, until you get that many, there's a nervousness that goes along with it. And you know, once you kind of cross over into 300, it's, it's, it's like doing a lot. It just, it, it doesn't make you nervous. You, you, you recognize the moves, it's not hard, it's not scary, it's like breathing, yeah.
Well, there is two different parts, I think. For one, for acro pilots, um, cross-country to make stalls, basically. And you can do a lot gauge of hours without you do a nice full stall because you can recover your glider without you do the full store. The full store for cross-country is really mental things. It's, um, to push your mantle ahead to say, well, I'm able in some situation just to put my gliders down and to recover. But honestly, it's not really useful. a cross country pilot but we know the percentage of technique and
The analysis, the knowledge for flying are much more important than a full stall, but the third part, which is the mantle, and it's important too, that's the three point, um, we just have to to look for to progress, um, the full store helps on techniques for sure, but it's helpful so a mantle to to say to the pilot why it's rough today, uh, if I have a cravat I'm able maybe to do that, but to be clear with the cross country pilot, if you just do an SIV course across, um, 10 full stall, if you have changed to do 10 full, so it's not enough to recognize the situation on the real moment, um, that's why it's, it's great for the mantle, for possible part of your mantle, but it's not really useful on the reality, um, other exercises are much more useful to know the spin point on the turn to recognize that those kind of things, to just to do collapses and rotation, to have no fear on back pitch, to have no fear on rapid exits on your harness, because on the rough conditions you can have the fan will push you out on the back pitch, and you have to control your, your pitch control correctly when you, when you want to, because it's part of mantle, but you have to use it every time on rough conditions, um, but the full store for me is not essential at all for 90 percent of the pilots, um, what Seiko and Charles try to push, try to push on the high level standard pilot, for me high level standard pilot means it's, uh, like world cup competition or competitors or, uh, exiled competitors, um, they should do everything, they should know everything if they want to be in, uh, in, in security in where they fly, why?
Because you fly with a lot of, uh, on the gaggle there's a lot of people, you sometimes not choosing your, uh, aerology, um, you can make a mistake like everyone, and you can be in trouble and just to be safe and land, and you can be in trouble and land and safely as you can, you must master the glider in a different position and shape of your glider, you must know that, um, and for a race glider, a lot of people, the security with the Xeno is pushing ahead the pilot to fly with this kind of glider, but they hide completely the behavior when something goes wrong, and that's why when, when you're flying in, in this part of which is, which is maybe 10 of the people in, in the world, uh, flying on the D glider or CCC glider, we must push them to really, really be careful and to be trained not only in the, in the technical, not only in the analysis, but also in the mental and technical push ahead
like SIV quite regularly, just to be sure, and realize properly when when it goes, uh
Great, I'm glad you—I'm glad you, uh, differentiated that out. That's, uh, that's super valuable, yeah.
and just now for the acro pilots, um, for the acro pilot, which is a little bit different because acro pilot, it's, it's different. It's a different spirit for me, it's gymnastic, uh, it's, um, you are in a box, training box, every time you're not flying on the, um, you know, over the rocky month or very rocky area, you'll just have most of the time a safety box for training enough height. That's why you preserve your security mainly, uh, then you're gonna do some maneuvers, um, and the full store for us, it's one of the base maneuvers because you're supposed to have even on wingovers, you know, have a little
bit of time, and you want to continue the run and continue training, you must be able to open this cruvet, um, on the short gliders with not a lot of the wingspan. It's very easy to make an easy full stone, and the second after you can sort it out very easily. That's why for the package for, um, acro pilots, it's there is two kind of things: first is dynamic, like for sure, um, wing covers and movement, like rotation, for sure, speed rotation, rapid exits; and on the second hand, they must master it very quickly on full stall, basic full stall, and I thought we have different different type of full stall just to play with, you know, um, and for acro pilot, both should be very clear.
It should be really natural, at least for much more than a cross country pilot, um, the wingover should be as natural as the full stall for the acro pilot, yeah.
Totally agreed, Fabian. Thank you so much, I really do appreciate this. I know you're slammed over there with, uh, many, many sivs, so I'll let you get back to your work. Uh, this has just been incredibly valuable. Uh, lots of learning, lots of advice, lots of great advice, and we'll have the links up for your, your Patreon page and your school and anything else. Uh, and so I can't wait till we, uh, get in the air again someday. Thanks, baby, and appreciate it. Yeah.
Love it too to see you again in the air, why not? Fantastic.
cheers buddy
Well, I hope you enjoyed that really cool talk with Fabian. I owe him a lot that he's been, uh, real integral in my own flying and been following him for a long time and in a place that's, uh, just world famous for flying, it doesn't get much better than Annecy. So I encourage all of you to go over there and and do some, uh, lessons with him, do some SIV with him on the next one, and I'll see you next time. Bye bye. Gorgeous lake Annecy and the teeth le danse and that whole zone is just really truly amazing. Uh, if you're getting something out of this show, all we asked for and all we have ever asked for is a buck a show. This is a listener supported podcast and, uh, as you can imagine, takes us quite a bit of time and energy to put all these together and we hope you're enjoying it. So think about it like a magazine subscription or a newspaper subscription or something, something you value. Uh, there are several ways to support us on the website cloudbasemayhem.com.
You'll see the links for just a one-time subscription and we'll see you next time. Bye bye. Donation through PayPal or you can support us on patreon.com forward slash Cloudbase Mayhem where you can be rewarded for doing so. You kind of set it and forget it and you only pay when content comes out and then we also now have a store so we're selling these wicked cool, uh, Patagonia or all organic t-shirts, uh, with the Cloudbase Mayhem on the back. They're super nice, really soft, fit really well. You have those men's and women's and we've got these new trucker hats by Annika Hurden called recaps. They're all made from recycled materials and they're wicked cool. Every single one is totally individual and unique, great color schemes. I think you're going to dig them so you'll find all that also on the website. So if you want some swag and, uh, want to wear the brand, I would be stoked.
That'd be fantastic. I appreciate it and we'll see you on the next show. Thank you.