Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloud Base Mayhem. We've got a really good show for you today. I've been trying to sit down with Andy Hediger, one of the original gangsters, really, in our sport. He was there in the very, very beginning designing gliders for Advance and became one of the Red Bull kind of acro aces. Won a World Cup in 2000, flies everything, trikes and sailplanes and you name it, hang gliders. He flies literally everything. A whole bunch of aircraft I'd never even heard of. Did a monster flight in a caravan from Red Bull headquarters in Salzburg all the way across Scotland and Greenland and all the way down to where he's living now in Argentina where he set up a school.
We talk about some of his crazy accidents, the latest with Hernan Pitico and his movie Airman is just unbelievable. So you'll see that. In the show notes, we bring it up quite a bit in the show. But before we get to that, I've got a whole bunch of, well, I've got a few things of housekeeping and a couple of them not even related really too much to flying. But it's been something that has been kind of a big piece of my life lately and thought you might be interested in it. When I did the 2015 X-Alps, some of you that followed that or saw the blogs, that kind of thing, I had a lot of trouble with inflammation. Just the stress and the pounding every day.
And I was super fit going into it. But my, you know, every night, and we had trained for this and we'd done all these kind of simulations beforehand. But every night I would, well, every morning I would wake up in just a mountain of sweat, like literally like lakes. And just, and it was disgusting. But it was also, it was just my body trying to get rid of all that inflammation. And didn't really understand. Didn't really understand why that was happening. Maybe my feet got like three sizes bigger. They didn't fit in any of my shoes. Of course, they got super, super blistered. Looked like somebody beat on them with a hammer. So anyway, I just put up with it in 2015. But in 2017, we decided to really take it seriously and figure out what the problem was and what might be causing some of that if it was just normal.
Because I know a lot of the athletes have the whole swelling with their feet. But anyway, we went to, I went to a doctor down in Pocatello and did all these lab tests and blood tests. And got really kind of fascinated with the ketogenic diet and fat-adapted diet. And that's becoming kind of a big thing in endurance stuff. So not very related to just standard paragliding. But in that whole search for nutrition and figuring out what had happened, when we went in the 2017 race, this time around, I stayed away from what powered me a lot in 2015 was carbohydrates. You know, just a lot of goose and Coke and sugar. And all these things to kind of help me keep from bonking. But didn't realize, you know, you can get away with that when it's like an ultra.
It's a hundred miler or something. When you're doing it day after day after day after day, turns out that stuff is, you know, you wouldn't eat that stuff normally. So why would you do it in a 10-day race? So in the 2017 event, I pretty much stuck with whole foods. A lot of protein, a lot of fat. Anyway, I'll get to the point here. In the studying for that, I was listening to a ton of podcasts about nutrition. And listening to all these shows about how, about kind of ultra athletes and what they did. And came across this book right, actually right before the X-Alps, when Maddie was pregnant with Fallon, a little girl that I had in August. And he was talking about how critical nutrition was with mothers and toddlers. But also when, you know, in the nine months of gestation.
So I listened to this podcast and he mentioned, this book by Katherine Shanahan called Deep Nutrition. And that's the point is, if you haven't read it or haven't heard about it, go out and get this book. I can basically sum it up. It's a massive book and it's got a lot of science. It is not conspiracy theory type stuff. But if you believe, as I do, that Big Ag's got a lock on a lot of the shit food that we eat and processed foods and the problems with all of that. She takes it step by step. What's wrong with all that with the processed foods, but the two big the massive takeaways and two big things in the book are vegetable oil and sugar and vegetable oil. I did not realize this, you know, that's kind of sold as this heart healthy thing.
You know, this is the whole advent of margarine back in the forties and fifties. And vegetable oil is, you know, sunflower oil, safflower oil, soy, palm. God, there's there's canola, of course, is the worst. But really, you know, there's a lot going on. But really, there are three oils that are good for you. That's olive oil, peanut oil and coconut oil. If it's not one of those, it's it's basically the cause of cancer on down, if you believe the book. So if you believe the science, which is pretty solid at this point and just been covered up by Big Ag, you know, like it's it's like half the calories in granola. It's in every protein bar you've ever eaten. So all those goos that I was eating and all that sugar.
It's pretty much loaded up with either sunflower, safflower oil, which are your body's just can't handle them. So if you've got a little kid or you're interested in health, I realize this is off topic with paragliding. Sorry for those of you who don't care, just yawning right now. But I found it really scary and very interesting. And and you'd be surprised that steps in everything. And when you heat it up, of course, like, you know, French fries, it's way, way, way worse. So. Have a look. Again, the book is Deep Nutrition by Katherine Shanahan. And especially for those of you have kids or especially little kids. Super important. Next topic. Quite a few people have been asking me how to stay warm in spring in the northern hemisphere here.
And it's pretty tough to stay warm when your hands are above your heart. And people have been asking, you know, if I have any tips or tricks for that. You know, I don't know if any of this is magic. But what I have learned for those of you interested, send me an email and I can send you my list of what I wear. It's all Patagonia stuff because I find that they make the best stuff and it lasts forever. It is a little bit more expensive, but you'll never need to replace it because it's warrantied forever. But I kind of go with the layering system. So the the you know, if I see if I'm doing hike and fly, my first layer is not going to be cotton. It'll be like merino wool or one of the blends. But the blends get pretty stinky. They do make them better now. So they're kind of like they call it anti stink. But you know, that first layer. There's a really thin layer.
You probably maybe you saw it in the Alaska Traverse, that blue shirt that gets all torn up. But like merino wool works really well or like a capelline works really well, just super thin. And then I usually have another one of those in my bag. So when I get to the top, I can take off the sweaty one, put it on a rock, let it dry out for a bit and put on a dry one. And then next layer would be like a synthetic or a fleece, you know, something not too thick, but usually with a hood. And then like a nano puff or a nano air. So a real lightweight. If it's going to be a super cold day, then I'll go with a big puff and in the Patagonia line, it's called the Hyper Puff. And they have great ones with hood and they're down so you can really pack them down. The Hyper Puff is actually synthetic, so it's pretty good in the rain and that kind of thing.
But anything big, anything just, you know, really puffy. The mistake that a lot of people make is they put speed sleeves over that, which makes sense for racing. But you don't want to compact that down. You know, let it stay out. The trick really in my mind with keeping your hands warm is that you've got to keep your core warm. You don't have a chance if your core is not warm. So if you're flying a pod, you don't need to worry about your legs too much. If you're not, then you've got to bundle up your legs the same as you do your top. If you have a pod, I never find it's much, you know, I don't find it necessary to do much more than long underwear. And then my classic board shorts that you see in all the films that I've always got on. That's because when I land, I'll take off the long underwear and then I've got something comfortable to hike in. But, you know, if I'm racing or I'm in a comp or there's a retrieve, I'll just fly in Carhartts or, you know, Patagonia's Workwear pants or something.
I don't worry about it. But for, you know, if I'm going to be hiking, then I definitely like to have the shorts. If it's going to be really cold, then I'll go with the long underwear and like a shell pants, like a ski pant, but not anything real heavy. I find it's just too much. And if you start, if you get low anytime during the flight, you're just going to be sweating so much, you get too sticky. And then, of course, you get even colder when you get high. Of course, oxygen helps. It helps a ton. If you're, you know, be flying anywhere high and in thin air, then oxygen really helps you stay warm.
Hands, so I fly with those Zanier gloves. They're super expensive and they're hopeless. Sorry, guys, that, you know, that make those. I know they're trying. But I've tried a bunch of different battery-operated heated gloves. None of them work. They all suck. Black Diamond put out a pair and they recalled them. And the Zanier ones I find. I don't even. I can't tell if there's any heat coming from it all. So total waste of money in my mind. You know, better a pair of mitts is, of course, mittens are much better than gloves. And on the really cold days, I'll have some hand warmers that I'll shake up real good beforehand and put them on the back of my hand so they don't mess with how I'm grabbing my toggles and stuff. A warning on that, though. I had an incident and a couple of people have had much worse incidents.
But I was flying here in Sun Valley a few summers ago. Really big day. I was trying to stay out of a cloud up at around 18,000. I was trying to stay below 18,000 to stay legal because it was a pretty good day. I was with Nick Greece and Nate Scales and had a massive blowout. And it took me about 3,000 feet to sort it out. But in about the first 1,000 feet of trying to sort this out, I was in a really locked-in bad spiral with a huge cravat. And I was trying to throw. I was trying to go for my reserve. And I had big mittens on. And I had put my hands up through the toggles, which I try not to do when I have mittens on. And I had big gloves on because of exactly what happened here. And so I got completely twisted up. And I was so twisted up I couldn't get my hands out of the brakes. So I couldn't get to the reserve. And so luckily I was able to sort it.
But that could have been pretty awful if I, you know, could have never gotten to the reserve. And I've heard of people having that. I've heard of that happening to people where they weren't able to get out of that. And then they spiral all the way to the ground. So much better if you're using bigger gloves. Or even better anyway to just grab the toggles on the outside and do kind of like a little half wrap. And then grab the lines with your fingers. And so your hands are never in the toggles. But especially that's important with big gloves because they can, if you start getting twisted up, you can't get your hands out. So, but yeah, mittens, you know, or big gloves, the problem with that, of course, is it starts to get pretty hard to fly on the bees on your toggles and stuff. So, you know, it's a delicate balance. And, you know, what you'll see with the guys that are flying, you know, huge lines in the reserve.
Like Pakistan when they're super tall and they don't have to worry about class one airspace. You see all those guys having the like down sleeves from your coat, which is brilliant. That's great. You've got to be super anal about that when you launch because they've been way more than several accidents with people getting those kind of wrapped around their lines or screwed up. You know, because it's a big bulky thing you've got to worry about. So you need to put them on after you launch or just be really careful when you do launch. But the problem with those is they're so bulky. Then, of course, you really can't fly on the bees and stuff. So totally inappropriate for racing, of course. And, you know, maybe you're just not really worried about using too much speed bar and that kind of thing when you're up tall. So maybe that's not that big a deal. But I certainly like to have my hands available to to use the bees, especially for flying a two liner.
So anyway, that's my thoughts on layering. And lastly, usually I talk about supporting the show at the end of the show. But in this case, we've just put up a show. We've put up a store on the CloudBaseMayhem.com. Go and check that out. We've got some really cool. I'm doing all my T-shirts now through Patagonia because they just make. They're the only real supplier I could find that makes truly sustainable shirts and 100 % organic. And the last run I had, the CloudBaseMayhem shirts, I did them all online. And I just wasn't really that psyched with them with the fit. And after you washed them, they kind of shrank a little bit and stuff. So these are great. I've been using them on the boat and with my other business for ages. And they're all printed up with the Mayhem logo and a cool little tagline on there.
So go check it out on the website. And we've also got Annika Herndon makes these killer Recaps hats, these CloudBaseMayhem hats. Every one is individual. They're totally unique. These are things that the Patreon supporters get at certain levels anyway. But if you just want to support us through PayPal one time or you just want a shirt or a hat, this is another way you can support us and kind of spread the word. There's not really much money made there. There's not a lot of margin. But it would be great to have you in our stuff and showing other people that you're listening to the podcast. So check that out, CloudBaseMayhem.com. Check out the store and order some swag and I'll get it off to you. And, yeah, so let's get into this show with Andy Hediger. Like I said, we've been trying to connect for literally months and months and months and finally able to do so.
He's down in Argentina. He's had a really long recovery after this crazy trike accident. When Hernan Pitico, another Red Bull athlete, was doing a jump out of a D-bag deployment out of the trike. And everything goes really bad. And it's all on video. Again, you've got to see this movie Airman. It's just unbelievable. But Andy's done an amazing three-, four-year now recovery after this crazy accident and still going strong, going hard. And he's got four beautiful little kids. And this is just a really heartfelt, deep, fantastic talk. From literally the OG. I mean, he has seen and done it all. And has a lot of cool things to say and a lot of great stories to share.
And I think you're going to enjoy this. So without further ado, please enjoy this talk with Andy Hediger.
Andy, we've been working at this for months, haven't we? It's been a long time to try to make this happen. But it sounds like you've got a whole bunch of wind in your backyard there in Argentina. So the opportunity came up. And I just watched your movie, amazing movie, Airman, that is just an incredible documentary of flying. Not just paragliding, but just the whole thing. And it's in some ways a real tearjerker. We'll get into that part of the movie here in a bit. But thank you so much for coming on The Mayhem and sharing, I'm sure, what will be some amazing stories. I thought maybe a great place to start would be to just start. Let's start with the very beginning. You worked for Advance.
You were part of what made – you were right in the very beginning of paragliding, like we talked about before we started recording. It's a very proud thing. Over 30 years ago, you started flying and really designing gliders. Let's start there.
Yeah, 33 years ago right now, a little bit more even. I just finished my school process, Swiss Army process. And then I know that I will not go to the normal kind of life. I was surfing a lot. I was shaping my surfboards. And then I wanted to make my own sails for my surfboards, windsurfing, of course. And I went to a sewing factory in Rehetobel, which is in Upper Zellerland. And just to start learning about how to sew and how to use a sewing machine and those kinds of materials. At this time. A skydiver named Guido. He was a skydiver, a very famous skydiver, Swiss National Skydive team.
And he said, oh, look, we should try to make from these seven-cell skydiver the same one with the zero porosity materials. So then boss Hans-Willi Zuberbühler told me we should make this and we should copy this. And this was the time when I thought, ah, but I won't do it. How will it work? They will not jump out of the aircraft. For me, skydiving was something that I didn't want to know nothing about. I was really scared about skydiving at this time. As I did not really understand actually what is this big game of playing in the air. And so it starts. And at this time then I came together with Roman Bühler.
And we built it Swing. It was called Swiss Swing. Which still exists today as Swing, German manufacturer today. But the start of Swing was Swiss Swing. And before that, then during this process, we make the Inferno 55. And in the process then we get, we make the work together to make it as short as possible. Then I leave this Zuberbühler sewing manufacturer. And just to start be full time. Only building paragliders with Roman. And with him then we build Paratech. With Paratech we make the first paraglider. Who flew one to six.
We know that a paraglider of one to six. Now we just passed nearly three years. From Zuberbühler sewing factory to Paratech in Stad, in St. Gallen. And yeah, this one to six paraglider flew. From Roche-en-Herbert, which is a small hill. Where you have 500 meters level difference. And three kilometers down to the lake. So if you reach the lake, you flew one to six. And this was our goal. And we reached this goal. But during this project also, you know, we started to find out the problem of when paragliding actually starts. It was more a sport for mountaineering people.
Guys who walked up and want to glide down to the valley. So this was the start. So we had at this time, if you look to old magazines. You can see all these mountain people with mountain helms on. And with this old, yeah, you know, the glasses we used at this time. But then we start to make flights and start soaring. Reach starts, turbling. And paragliding really, I believe. Then in, this was 90, it was 89, 90. When it starts to grow and grow. And so many telecables in Switzerland were nearly die.
Starts to really re-burn by more and more paragliding people used to get up the mountain and fly down. And in 91, we make this big film. Which is called Duell in den Wolken. Which was made from the Swiss-German TV.
And this was getting out on TV station in 91. We had the first world championship. It, you know, was Robbie Whittall, Ueli Wiesmeyer. And Andy Hediger. And Urs Harri. And, you know, we are at this time. We went those big ones. Big pilots. And in Sant 'Andrea, the first world championship.
Five world championship. Which was, you know, we flew nearly 90 kilometer tasks. At this time was just, wow. Flying incredibly, incredibly tasks. But now, you know, from 84, when I started, 85 to 91. It was just also nearly six years past. And these six years went, I think, the really strongest paragliding growing process. Yeah. From a seven-cell paraglider up to a 21-cell paraglider. Our first 21-cell, which calls Airbus. And then, you know, the progress.
We flew one to six. Which have started to bring many, many problems to the people. For flying as, you know, the, how we said, the conditions of flying a seven-cell. Low, very low performance paraglider. Up to a one to six. Changed completely the piloting. So, then the accident started.
This was a time when I thought I must start to make safety courses. So, I went to look for a place over the lake. And then I get to Monte Generoso in Lugano. It was a small train driving up. And we had 1,300 meters. So, people gliding out. They arrived at this time with 800 meters. In the future, of course, with much more as the performance increase. And I learned to the people. And mostly people who are just finished the school. How to fly a paraglider out of normal control. Yeah. And so, I was also at the creator of this. Getting an SIV. SIV. And then I saw to the Federation.
I get also in with Alain Soler. With test pilot for the Federation. And with Alain Soler, I grew in all process. How to test paragliders. How to certify them. How to get a safer space. How to do sports. And look just today. It's incredible where we reach.
There's this beautiful scene. The very last scene in the movie. You're on a trampoline in your backyard. It looks like with your family and four kids. Yeah. And one of your little cuties goes, you know, my dad has an awesome job. You know, maybe. How did. And what is your job now today? Let's go from 30 years ago to now. And navigate some of that space for me. Like when did the relationship with Didi at Red Bull begin? And it just seems like that's been a major component of your life.
I think when I get into 91. This world championship in Santander. Which I finished second behind Robbie Whittall. It was then a big bang start. Then I meet Hannes Arch. He came from Austria. Visited me. He wanted to know about paratech. And a big friendship starts at this time. And he just started living and staying with me in the sewing factory. And I learned him flying paragliding. He brings me out together with Ulrich Grill. Our photographer. At this time. And we had the first meeting with Didi Mateschitz in 92.
And then when it starts. Actually our Red Bull acro team. And then you know. I am more the person who is a visionist of flying. I have started to make maneuvers. And aerobatic maneuvers. And I could even speak during these maneuvers. So when we start filming all those test parts. And talking to. I just discovered that I have this capacity. And I could transmit all my experiences. And transmitting. And then one part was certification test development. And the other part then was start to make films.
Photo shootings. And with Hannes who had the vision of this acro team. Ulrich who was the photographer. And I was more the man who prepared and flew. And make the actions. The Ueli Gegenschatz. So and then we get in Guido Germann. So we build it. And bring together skydiving. Hang gliding. Paragliding. From that base jumping. And we start our circuit with the trike. Where we could fly in over all those Red Bull. These first competitions or meetings. He organized the shows. You know. For example in Salzburg.
Where is this ski jump place. We flew in with making aerobatic shows. With live documentation. Muses. And some snowboarder. And this was the first event that Red Bull organized. And we just flew in there. And then the Flugtag starts. So it was the very, very beginning of Red Bull actually. It was just known in Austria. And afterwards. Who all knows the Red Bull story. They know that once Red Bull was forbidden then. And this makes of course a very special effect. Afterwards. This you know. We went. I was just an athlete. And I receive a support.
From a person who believes in our vision. To bring those sports together. And to transmit. The feeling to dance in the air. Today you asked me. You know. I fly from caravan. Sailplane. Small aircraft. Strikes. I'm skydiver. Now I'm strongly wingsuiting. Of course not the proximity. But from aircraft. And you know. I just like. For me. It's just like a good musist. A musist. You know. A good musist. Is a band. Who can. Or. Who can. Touch. An instrument. Several. Kind of instruments. And. Be an airman. Or. An air sports artist. It's like. A little bit. The same vision. You know. To know that. The air. It's. Our.
Swimming pool. Or. Our air pool. You know. Where you jump in. And you fly through. But. I can. Just advance. One. Of course. Of your question. It will come. For sure. Paragliding. It's still the most. Wonderful. And beautiful. And most. Perfect. Wing. That exists. On earth.
Which. I mean. You. I've got it written down here. The trike. And the hang gliders. And the swift. And the. Virus. Sailplanes. Our cop tricks. The tar. I mean. You fly. Them all. But the. The paragliders. You're still. Still your favorite.
You know. I get. Then. You know. My accident. Stopped me. For nearly. Three years. And then. I start. Make a few. Little flights. But very scared. About my. My legs. And now. That I'm trained. Every day. I get. Them stronger. And this year. Actually. This season. Also. With advance. Who started. To. Retake. A little bit. On high. Performance. Prototypes. I have just.
Rediscovered. How much. I love. Paragliding. And how beautiful. And how simple. This wing. You know. And more. And more. In today. Where. Air spaces. Are restricted. Where. Everywhere. You know. You need. To be. It's. Complicated. And be the. Paraglider. It's. Still. This. This. Feeling. Of. Be free. You know. You have. This. Little. Bag. With. These. Lights. Light. Paraglider. Stuff. You. Get. Some. Some. Lightness. Harness. And. Light. Wings. You. Get. Just. Four. Five. Seven. Kilos. You. Walk. Somewhere. You. Take. Off.
I. Love. Dark. Optics. To. Food. Lunch. And. Fly. And. Fly. Thermals. Then. You. Can. Either. Fly. With. Paraglider. For. This. Very. Very. Super. Top. Low.
Minimum. Sync. Performance. But.
I. And. I'm. Just. Free. And. That's. What. I. Feel. Is. Paragliding. Is. That's. Why. Paragliding. At. Least. Is. So. Strong. And. So. Big. And. Is. Still. Growing. So. Everywhere. And. Today. All. My. Students. They. Came. Here. And. They. Want. To. Know. About. Flying. They. Start. With. Paragliding. This. First. Step.
That's. The. First. Step. In. The. Way.
Of.
Flying.
So. I. Very.
Important. And. I. Is. Very. Important. And. I. Think. That. Important. And. I. That. I.
Think.
And. I. Think.
That. That. Is. A.
Big. Story. For. Think.
That. Is. Important. For. Everyone. My. you know, my, my girlfriend was, was watching last night with me. I was showing her when you, when you jumped off the, out of the reserve before it slammed into the water tower. I mean, just the heads up presence there was just terrific. And, and, you know, I, I don't think many people would have had the, the wherewithal to, to, to make that move. Cause obviously really scary. And you, I mean, you timed it perfectly, but you still got pretty hurt. I'm just, just wondering, you know, a very common theme on the show is, is talking to people who have had an accident. Cause it's just a part of this sports that, you know, it'll, it's not inevitable by any means, but a lot of people unfortunately have been hurt. And it seems like the recovery is off often much more so in the head, in the mind.
Yeah. Look, if I'm very honest, I had several accidents and I has been part in, uh, unauthorized, analyzing accidents in the Swiss, uh, hang gliding federation. Um, I think in the life, we know that we can do however, what we want and we can get die on a herd attack. We can die on a brain attack. We can die at the truck, get crashed into our car, our bicycle. You know what I never do. For example, I never go bicycling on the road. Impossible that I go with the bicycle to a road.
In Argentina either. But then if you go and fly, you are by your own. So the risk to be catched from another airplane, it's very small.
But, um, you know, those primary accidents that I had, that was to my back twice time. Then I had the accidents after Bettina dies. It was nearly, I was in coma for several days. Um, but I don't know why. Let's say somebody bonds that. I continue. So I continuing and then you just you just grow with that. And that's why all the time say, feel fear. It's natural. We must fill this, this part of, you know, be just, uh, I should be very conscious and be on the safe side.
That's so wonderful. concentrated what i do and this is a part of life and afterwards now this last accident which was filmed shows one more that if you don't sing your sings well or if you feel that somebody is not really as it should be um you should not doing so if you are drunk and you drive you can do it but you know that you're doing a bullshit maybe if you arrive at home and the next day i said wow how i reach my home driving back i think you know to make a conversation how many times people are doing this kind of of of things and not only driving i think in a lot of other uh the part in in our lives yeah um then afterwards if you survive it might in this part which is filmed now with the trike when when this happens you know i i was feeling that we are doing bullshit i know this so
you you had the sense before you even started like something's wrong yeah
of course and i did i do also explain it a little bit in the film now to try to analyze and i thought look we had to so many d-bag i was a developer of the d-bag we and harness actually harness in white uh invented and i sold the first d-bags when i jumped out from a balloon with a tandem paraglider at this time with bettina i thought yeah but we could jump out we make a small bag and hannah said okay let's do it and we designed the d-bag and then we start to jump out from the trike with the d-bag and we had make hundreds of d-bag jumps from the trike afterwards from the balloon from the helicopter from the bridges from either paragliding we went on red bull vertigo i remember this was maybe 94 5 something like that we take off three on a paraglider and then i released with d-bag hanging on me uli gegen shots dropping him out you know this was just never seen before and we had make all this progress making a nice work and then here we had make i start to make the red bull uh actual team of latino america
together with ernan bitoko nico lopez then i will build this red bull aerobatics team and that's when those athletes get into red bull we made several shows over hundreds of thousands of people in in santiago and buenos aires and then here one day in our garden on a monday you know and none wanted to change the system and then he put this belt between d-bag and himself to be more comfortable the reason he want to do that was i was agree if you have to fly far away into a show it's very uncomfortable but it wasn't never a problem as we have done it years during years and i said this bell will fuck you up and i know that but i was never strong enough to say
i'll just look for another pilot do it with somebody other ah andy you start to be old oh andy you start to be you know and i start to be really older actually my brain i'm still like i don't know 22 now but maybe 28 30 i'm end of months i'm 52 and still alive however then this shit happens and then one when it happens and i lost conscience and i was really i saw them i'm dead then my conscience came back as i have very very strong negative g's yeah and up and i get to the emergency handle and i saw fuck emergency handle my emergency shoot is expired since years i was thinking this you
know and i went and i i just get to this handle against all these forces and when i hear the explosion you know i said wow it was just orgasmico yeah yeah and then i was looking and where is this fucking shoot and it just paused and half me if you look the video and they're already straight
down the
rocket bent straight down you know but the bad is configuration and it paused just by side and it did not hang in however opened and i'm hanging there you know and when i'm hanging out there i say okay now back to earth it's okay i was just very angry and i was just uh just you know how we said the word when you said bad words when you are just fucking bullshit and i was just cheating out yeah and then i saw those water tanks and i laughed and i said no i can't believe i get into this water tank no look all the space i have you know and then i stopped loving and i concentrated me i said man if i get in those tanks i was even in the water of course why i did not jump in the water you know why why we put the top on the tanks with some steel cables against
the birds so this was you know how we said cover it and those steels i thought if i jump and i get one of these steels i'm cut like a salami yeah
you're dead
and i saw okay i must jump off but then was two of those tanks i need to wait that i jump pause the first to jump and then i need to crash in the second one however it works i'm here i'm talking to you then i then you know to get back to the recovering to all those um you know you have family you have your children's you have your project you have many things going on growing this this all this inversion we have done bringing a caravan towards argentina and none had jumped out from the caravan with paraglider i don't know if you you heard about this 20 000 feet it was so nice history for me you know it was so nice you know paragliding
burns about skydiving but paragliding also gives back to skydiving so many um development of you know how to sew profiles look these high performance skydiver rigs today they are like that through paragliding development yeah uh we had done so many things and then i had this bad accident which stops me and you know you think this is just the end but actually it was just the beginning of a new era now i walk sometimes well sometimes like a very old man but i walk and i can fly i can jump i could take off even the arctopteryx by myself and i can fly and i can jump and i can fly and i can jump and i can take off even the arctopteryx by myself and i can take off even the feet on zero wind conditions this is just amazing and that shows me that yeah the what
we have inside the head brain or however our center is so so interesting how it works and how i think we also can if you have more or less good health you can just be influenced to be positive you know to look forward but i must also be very honest today i'm not sure if i'm today with this project after all things who happens i sometimes said oof should i not have been just just go forward with paragliding only paragliding you know as paragliding at least i have i like that you know now i have a prototype that i received from advance and i can just work a little bit on it and flying and make some knots and and change and you know this is just for me it's so beautiful so nice work simple yeah i don't know it's very simple as wing it's very simple yeah but it gives me you know it's bring me back to the to the very beginning beginning
that's kind of cool that it's come full circle andy how much you know you you've lost a lot of friends yeah you've already mentioned them honus whaley guido um do you you know were their deaths partly because is any of it because of the pressure of of red bull or the pressure of you know always doing something new and performance and you know kind of pushing the limits or is that just built into you guys anyway would that have been not inevitable but you see what i'm saying you know without red bull as a player would it be the same thing you
know gavin red bull maybe um we should be very careful of how we get this um explained for me red bull has no any responsibility of nobody honus whaley uh guido we are just personalities who had this passion for our sport yeah and if you look to all those other for example go pro or all these cameras who who are making possible to see and i think they are also big part of how fast sports grows as many many people could start looking into youtube thousands of times the same maneuvers i think
if you die it was just the time that you live this level of life and it has nothing to do with a sponsor or how whatever whatever you want to if a surfer dies in in in in a wave you know it wasn't the responsibility of his surfboard yeah
sure good
uh however and if here i think it's just you know we are maybe people who are we are not as normal that we get a normal what is normal you know uh being married or not married having children or not give them uh and education that they in future are of their own life and during this time you give your children you transmit what you can i have four children and my oldest doctor will be 18 now and then i have my my son which is 14 and he just made me crazy right now you know and then i have my daughter and then i said what will be of them you know they are they are unique and they are just through a process and then i think back to my life how i grew up and i was the same stupid asshole when i was 14 15 years old and i start discovering what is for what i have my balls between my legs and and so on so you know then it comes the time that you grow and you feel a passion of do something and if it's
maybe doing a very good meal and you are a chief kitchener maybe you will die as you are fat or not and if you are a diver a soup diver a mountaineering you are a motorcycle you are a surfer you are a hawker hockey player however whatever you are doing but you are doing it as it's your patient then nobody can be responsible which could be a clothes sponsor or a energy drink sponsor in my personal case but what i give a very very big thanks to red bull in this place that it's give to many people an opportunity to grow through the passion you had
and but not only give you money you must have also like you must have a characteristic to be an athlete of red bull
and this is not be a crazy man as you can see in red bull today this is so big uh a very very big aspect of different kind of sports artists uh you know of art in every kind of view so there where i'm a little bit sensible and people said ah red bull is responsible that this or this guy dies now i'm absolutely not agree with it
andy the at the very end of your movie your wife um says you know it's it can be really hard to be in a relationship with someone who has so much passion who's so driven um and i i'm smiling as i say this right now because my my girlfriend would say the same about about me uh because you know it's it we just we we tend to be very distracted with the things that we are passionate about um so i i i think i know what she's saying but i i wanted to get your thoughts on that
right now at these days it's a very sensible point to talk with me about um as you know in in in a relationship you have highs and a little bit less highs as you have a nice thermals you can have a very big sink rate you know it's um especially in my case you know you know in my case And how I can tell this, it's very difficult to explain myself, even in English. But what I want to say is, after my life today, I'm very thankful about all this experience I have done in any kind of view.
I don't know if you know that one years ago, I was high catching in my house. And I got into a very bad fight and I was nearly killed. One more. And I thought, now, look, you know, I will just do what I want to do and what makes me feel right. I will not go anymore to any social bullshit stuff where you must go to visit, you must go to friends, you should go to this concert and you must go out. And even... Eat and you should do this and this, you know, you should go to theater. No, I'm a very, I should say, a very big egoist.
Why? Why I try to live my life now more than even before, day to day, as I like to do it. I have the chance to live 50 meters from the hangar and from the sewing factory. I like the part of my house, cooking, to prepare good meals, to eat well, to get good wine to drink, to make sports, to use my time doing things I like to do, I love to do, to create this art that I'm creating here, which is so, you know, it's so utopic, actually, this Aero Atelier, but it's unique.
It's like an art I'm creating. And I feel how many... People start to understand why I'm so making important that if you want to start flying a 747, Boeing, Airbus, airline pilot, you start, you should start paragliding when you are 60, 40.
So this is my art and I live for that. So I didn't care about concert, about, you know, going out, about all these things. And that's very... My wife really had very, very big heart and she let me do. And, of course, she's my first wife. I was married, I was divorced, then I get a friend, then she dies, then I get a mother, then she leaves, then I have now with Lily. And, yeah, I think people who are patient on what they are doing, you know, they have not...
They have not... But also people who are working at their stage. Please, let me go alone, with the Stars.
That would be great. I'm ready,
come on now, you've let me out. OK, I am too angry.
I love you. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.
I can feel like that what I'm doing, it's something with discipline, continuity. You know, flying a caravan with 18 skydivers behind or jump out with a wingsuit or make a power landing tandem flight, you must be very responsible what you're doing. You are responsible of person. You are getting into this big air pool, to not say swimming pool. That's how I try to explain to the people when they jump from the aircraft, for example. You are not jumping into that. You're jumping into a big swimming pool and you will swim with your body, you will fly through.
You know, this is the part where I feel that I'm maybe very egoist in one part, but I must really take all the advantage I can take from my experiences. As I know that. However, it's so quick that the lights or the life turns off.
And I know that, you know, if you are in a very bad situation personally, like I was, you know, after four operations, getting out and home and wheelchair, you are thinking sometimes to kill yourself. But I know that I have no right to do that.
I have so many accidents which I survived. And then. This last one where I was catched up in my home and I have to fight through my life in front of my family. I said, I must life until who is in charge of our life. People said God, others said other gods, however it is, just turns off the life and goes to the other level. So all my friends I lost and my woman, my biggest love, which was Bettina, I think they are just in another level. They win. They are in an advance. They has passed just to the other place. Nobody really knows how it is or how it is.
So that's why maybe it helps also when we lost somebody. We should not be so frustrated. At least we should be frustrated as they has win us. They are just in another place. And we must still go and, you know, cooking, eating.
Suffering sometimes, loving other times, and even see you start to be older and older and older and, you know, so it's very sensible point of discussion. And I know, I don't know if I can really explain what I want to, but that's what I can say. That was a
perfect explanation. I just lost a very good friend of mine, one of my supporters. And the ex-Alps and I kept thinking about this quote as I was going through and still am, of course, going through all that. You always are. But, you know, pain is inevitable. Suffering is a choice. And I liked that, you know, that it's, you know, we, you said, you know, we don't really know where these people go, but we're all going to find out, aren't we? It's inevitable.
Of course, that's the big question of our life that nobody really can respond. But we know. And we feel it in our heart. I think this is a natural process.
Andy, if you could, if you could rewind the clock, let's just divide by half, you're 52. If you could maybe give us some perspective of maybe where you were, but if you could divide in half, let's rewind the clock to, and you're 26 years old, where were you, what were you doing? And if you could do anything differently, if you could go back in time and say, Andy, I'm your 52 year old self. And this is what you need to do differently, what would it be?
How many things I will try to be different? Yeah, that's the big discussion I have with my mother.
My mother, she wanted that I make, you know, university and,
and I think this was my best decision that I have done. You know, I lived in a small, when I lived home at 19, I just got a small car with a bed and all my stuff. And I was, this was my home and my home went from parking place to parking place, from surf spots to surf spots, traveling down to the Canary Islands to, to, to Morocco, to surf, to make experience. And then I got into this, this paragliding world, you know, when it's really starts and I said, wow, and I must say, I will never change this choice having taken at this time. Then I married very soon. You know, married. This was a big influence also of, you
should marry it as you live with a woman, you should marry her, but she wanted them to get a house and I said, no, never, and get compromised with the bank, you know, no, I said, taking some doubts with the bank and all this shit, but maybe, I don't know what I would really change to, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, sometime I'm asked me, have being as egoist as I am, I have no sister, no brother, so I was an own child, yeah, maybe this makes also, then I grew up in one place and another place and another place, so I never had really friends,
long time friends, as when you burn in town and you grow with the kindergarten, first school, second school, to university, and then you are 20 years old. You get friends. You get friends from 20 years, I never had this, so if I could really change back, back to more than 26, I would ask my father to make three or four more children, so I could grow up in a bigger family, and this could have changed my being, and maybe today I would be, I don't know, an airline pilot, I
don't believe. No way, come on. I
don't know.
But when I was 26, I was just, you know, in love with Hannes, Hannes and I, we went brothers, Hannes for me was my brother, he's still my brother, actually, although he leaves this earth one and a half years ago, the helicopter accident, you know, but what I have lived with him, and this pure, this pure living on a patient, to go and party.
You're blind already. In my time, we didn't have any computers. You know, we shaped a whole part of the wing with foam to get the clothes around, to get the development of a cell, of a bottom and the top-cell, and we made the lines by ourselves. When I look, there's all those young pilots, you know, they never fabricated by themselves a full line set, for example. And I have sewed nearly 60 paragliders from zero to flying them in the prototype parts, changed the wing tips, get another bottom cells open. There's hours of sitting there, cutting and sew again and inflating in the wind and try and fly and be frustrated.
And then at least the day we arrived to one to six with the progress, you know, and to grow up and to start to make maneuver and be an air, you are a pilot. You are a captain of an airplane, paragliding pilot. You are in charge of an airplane. So I must really say when I look back now, I take the best choice. I
like that.
Doing what my patient had. What I should have maybe been a little bit more diplomatic. I should be not as much. That's what you talk with my woman all the time. You know, I'm very impulsive. Yeah. A
little more, a little less fire. This
is the Latin.
Yeah, this is, I think this is the Latino part I have from my mother, from Italian, you know, my cats, so my, it makes me sometimes a little bit, you know, cooking my blood, but I, and another part, it's just an art of being. I do not, I don't know, I'm not making, living on costs of a state. I never ask money on a bank. I never went, you know, stealing something or leaving an account of other people and person who are just getting in touch with me to get information of flying.
I'm really open to transmit, to give, to give out. I have made so many safety courses just for free as I just wanted that people learn flying, that they can really feel how it is flying nice. Yes. Be a safe pilot, yeah. And maybe I should have even a little bit more power at this time when I am sitting back. This may be very sensible what I will say right now, but I was very angry about the flying schools at this time, you know. The flying schools, they just want to make flight very quick to the people and sell them a paraglider where they have huge part
of money. They get. In their pockets, but there was never a real, I think it's still a big problem. The schools is just, they sell, they just sell a, a, a, a, a quickie, a quickie flying experience. Um, and they just want to give you and sell you as fast as possible. The paraglider that's where they have the most, um, uh, uh, benefit the margin. Yeah. But then the school, why they don't know, learn the people how to inflate the paraglider, how to inflate reversed. You know, I need, I use the paraglider for my students to explain them why something is flying, what
is the suspension and when, and, and, and, and how it works. And through the paraglider, it's the best tool you can do it. Yeah. And I said, and I saw that then the schools. The only thing, what they want is, ah, it must be as simple as possible, you know, and the simplest possible, they must have the, those licenses. And this makes for our sports, a big dark shadow, which ends on accidents of person of people who never heard of different kinds of factors, which are a part of very important part of power sport.
Yeah. This has been a big theme lately. I don't know why it just keeps coming up lately on, on a bunch of the recent shows is just that it, it's, it depends so much. There's no, very few schools are teaching people to be an autonomous pilot. You know, you're, you're, you're just checking the boxes. You're, you're going, okay, well, they've done this, they've done that, they've done that. Okay, here's your license. And they're sending these people off with none of the requisite knowledge of being a pilot. And it's, it's really, uh, I think it's really fascinating. I, there are very good schools out there, but I think it's so important that, you know, but there's a lot that aren't, and, and it's so dependent on the instructor you get and the, uh, it's just, it's a real, I think it's a real problem in the sport.
And I think you're, like you said, it's also one of the reasons for so many accidents.
And it's still a big problem. When I look, and when I talk with Alan Soler, who came one month, nearly three weeks here to my place now this summer, and we talked about it. We talked about all we suffered during, during all the process of certification and the safety aspect of a paraglider, but they could never make power that the safety aspect are the schools and the schools must be more expensive than they are to give a more specific education and formation of paragliding pilots. And they should have much more time.
And it's still today, the same problem. And we still today have three or four different, uh, certification process with different kinds of certification ideas. And it's just ridiculous. And the sports is not safer. It's the same as it was 10, 20, 25 years ago. No, no. However. I just thought that for me, you know, these are in, in the paragliding world, I can see these kinds of things, but you know, what happens to me and which is quite, uh, lovely, uh, you know, there are the, the paragliding pilot is one personality, the skydivers, they are other personalities.
Then you have the sail plane pilots. Then you have the aircraft pilots. Then you have the helicopter pilots. And then, you know, you have the balloon flyers and then you have the hang glider pilots, which we are not anymore so much. I, we know why, but I really like hang gliding actually. But what I want to go into, it's this different kind of personalities who practice this, those different kinds of, of, uh, uh, air sports activities. And maybe if you look into music, you have the guy who is very good bassist.
Another one is more on the violin, on a piano. You have a few of them. They are good in many kinds of instruments, but they are not so much of them. And in the flying, I suppose it's very, the same, very nearly the same when I have an airplane, when they hear PPR pilot. Who came to start flying an aircraft. And they said him, now we go inflate a paraglider to make the, the sensible of, uh, meteorologic, of the air, of the mass. When we start learning aerodynamics through a paraglider, he looks to you like, eh, he feels, or when I have a skydiver and I said, skydiver.
Skydive student, we will start paragliding before we skydive or during your first skydive tandem jumps, you will make paragliding first step cool, school. And I'm fighting with the skydiver instructor, as they said, no, nothing to do. You are just giving too many information to our students. And I said, man, how you can jump out an aircraft, make free fall. And afterwards you open a paraglider and you can't fly. Where exists this? You can't believe how many discussions I have. And I'm sometimes thinking I'm really pissing outside the toilet. What, why, what is happening?
You wonder, you wonder how many accidents could be prevented in the, in the base and wingsuit world. If those, if you know, if, if there were more paraglider pilots, you know, I think when you have the reverse opening next to the wall, it's no big deal. If you're a pilot, you know what to do immediately. It's just not a, not a problem.
Look, look. If you ask power, he's flying with his, his, his Piper cup or I'm flying with a caravan, me, the 900 power horsepower turbine into the Andes. I fly same as a paraglider. Where is the wind from? How strong is the wind? Welly wind where I should not fly into or however you're sinking process is so much richer as when you did not have free flight before. I
have a great story for you. When, when, when I was working with Paul on the Alaska project, um, he not, not Kenny, who, who is a paraglider and who really taught Paul how to fly his cub and was very much a part of that whole project. But another guy was, was flying out, uh, to drop some gear to the camera crew one day. And, uh, Paul was up at, they both left the same place and they were going out, out into the big mountains out in the, into the Alaska range. And the one guy who had been flying up in Alaska. Super cubs and beavers and otters. I mean, you know, very experienced, uh, airplane pilot was, was at 6,000 feet and Paul was at 14,000 feet and, and the, and the guy radioed him, Paul, how are you up there?
You know? And Paul said, I'm thermally, what are you doing? I'm thermally, you know, I mean, in one season and I've told this story at the, at the, you know, when we'd show North unknown and the film projects, when I go on tour, I'm like, oh, I'm going to do this. But in one season, by the end of that summer, Kenny said that Paul was the best airplane pilot he'd ever seen in Alaska, you know, and that was just in one summer. And that was because of Paul's paragliding background. You know, he just, he understood it naturally to have an engine was just a bonus. You know,
that's makes me feel so happy, uh, listening, these kinds of stories, you know, this gives me, this confirms that I'm not. Yeah, no,
it was, it was amazing. It
was amazing
to watch how good he got.
You know, this is just the right, this is, this is very, very the right stuff. And that's why, and that's why it, and when I was here with Paul and we have so great time together, um, uh, to feel that he, he, he, you know, he's thinking the same way. And that's why I think my project as utopic, it sounds, it makes some sense.
Andy, I want to be mindful of your time. And I, so I just. I just have one more, this has just been amazing, but I have one more question. You know, you in the film, there's just so many amazing adventures, your, your caravan trip from, from Salzburg, from, from Red Bull across Scotland and Greenland and Northern Canada, all the way down to Argentina and your world cup win in 2000 and your incredible accident with Hernan. I mean, there's just so many things there. And again, listeners, you got to see this movie. It's just fantastic. But I'd love for you to close with your, your greatest adventure. You know, what, what, you know, now after this 30 something years of flight, you know, what, which, what, what stands out the most, what journey, what adventure, what experience, what friendship.
Um, as you saw before, we have a very windy day and I have time enough, but to make it very short, this question, I think the biggest advance adventure I lived. My life, uh, it's a very pure, um, pure art of living my life. And in this, I have many very, very nice experiences with persons. And I think, you know, the relationship I had with harness, uh, he was my brother. Uh, I filled with him so strong, this art of being and, and, and all this characteristic he had, which I don't have. From what I wanted to get from him and
did the same part. He gets from me this patient of flying. However, uh, to get into be a Red Bull athlete since very beginning as, uh, Dietrich sometimes sells Urgesteine, yeah. Urgesteine means, you know, very old stones, uh, to be part of this history. Yeah. It's makes me very, very proud and to have now also, uh, uh, these projects running with all these missions to, you know, to have airplane instructor, skydive instructors,
paragliding, flying, sewing, and so on to mixing all those. It's like an orchestra and then my family be father of four children's my daughter, which will leave house. Nice. Now in the end of year, and the youngest one who had now four years, this is also a big part of my adventure. Uh, and now what I try to, it's just, you know, be a little bit more careful, but still the wing, what I really feel.
For example, this wingsuiting, uh, you know, I just get through Sebastian Alvarez, uh, he's very big wingsuiter from Chile. And he came. He's here and I make several jobs with him and I really could discover how to work, how it works. And now I'm just sleeping with that. I don't think I will really do an, a proximity.
Wingsuiting, but be with your body in, in, in this wingsuit is just amazing. It's just, but then I go to paragliding with my new prototypes that I can get and fish out from, uh, from advance. And I say, wow, I should maybe go back once to compete. Yeah. The
world would love to see that young
friends. And, you know, I was part of Xavier Murillo when 91, when we start with the project of, uh, paragliding world cup, it starts together. Xavier Murillo and I, we started this project legend. And today is what it is, of course, after several things. And so my biggest advance, uh, adventure is actually all my life.
I love it. Perfect answer. Andy, that was just such a treat, man. Such an honor. And, uh, I hope we get to share the skies together someday. Uh, it's been, it was just incredible to watch your, your movie and to share all that history. And, and, uh, thank you from the bottom of my heart. Thank you for making this time available to, to your fans and our fans and the people that, oh, so much gratitude and, oh, so much to you for, for, for making this, uh, this amazing sport. That we are all so passionate about. Thanks a lot.
Thank you, Gavin, that you take me, uh, part of, of, of, of, uh, this project you're doing, which is broadcasts and, uh, maybe just one thing I wanted to know. It's in, you talk several times about my film. There is the, the original one, which is called airman done really, really by ourselves. Um, then was, uh, sharing the sky, which is a little bit. Same in a English and more short version. Uh, I still believe that the original version is a little bit more nicer version for all those people who get out. Yeah,
that's the, I agree. I watched both and I agree. I'll, I'll have, I'll have links to both in the show notes, but, uh, yeah, the, the long one is, is just terrific. And I, and I think it's always better in, in the language that you speak. That's a, so I appreciate, I know this is probably hard. To get through in English, but, uh, you're, you're very articulate. That was fantastic. Thank you.
So thank you once more Gavin. And I really hope to meet you one day somewhere out there in the big, uh, I'm sure we will.
It's a small world. Isn't it? It's a small, big world. Thanks, Andy. Talk soon. And, and, uh, again, I really appreciate it and best of luck to you down there and to all your beautiful children.
Thank you to all our listeners and, uh, hang loose. I
hope you enjoyed that. I had her smile on my face the whole time. For that one, such a, uh, legend, legend in the sport. It's just amazing to, to sit down with Andy and, and hear all those stories. Uh, if you're getting something out of the show or one of the previous shows, or if you're just discovering the show, go back and check out the hours and hours and hours of great talks with so many incredible pilots. There's so much good advice there. And a lot of things to make you smile and a lot of things to make you better, please do support the show. All we've ever asked for is a buck a show. You can do that as a one-off through PayPal. Uh, go to the cloud-based Mayhem. Dot com. And you'll find the links for supporting the show. Uh, don't just send us a buck. Wait until you want to listen to 20 or 30 shows and then send accordingly. Cause PayPal takes a little chunk out of that. So a buck doesn't go very far, but, uh, we do have quite a bit of expenses.
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Cheers.