Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloud Base Mayhem. Got a great show for you today with Till Galbraith. He's been involved in sports since the very, very beginning, mid-80s, and has been working with Nova now for many years now in the PR side of things. So it's really interesting to get his take on how they developed the Nova team and why they put all those incredible pilots on the mentor a few years back and just kind of blew everybody's minds because these guys were sending these huge FAI triangles in the Alps, and it really made everybody rethink what aspect wing you need to fly to go big. And so we talk a lot about that. We talk about Nova's, you know, the kind of the general thinking has been.
That companies like Jinn and Niviuk and Ozone, by creating open-class gliders and really pushing the limits of what a glider can do, and now the CCC gliders, that that technology gets passed down through the brand and makes the C's and the B's and the A's even better. And Nova has really proved that that's maybe not the case. So really interesting talk about glider design and safety and risk and flying lower-end gliders, flying them really well. You know, kind of the method. You know, kind of the mental capacity that they take a lot less, so you can fly them maybe longer. So some really interesting things to think about in your own personal flying, depending on where you are and how many hours. And as you all know, I'm a big fan of the two-liners, but this really made me think.
So pretty interesting stuff. A little bit of housekeeping. You may remember from the last show, we've got these really cool signs that Josh Heater makes down in Utah that, you know, paraglider needs to ride a car. Super, super lightweight. Made out of great fabric. You can just pop them out and sit on the side of the road and up your chances to get a ride rather than sticking your thumb out. Not such a big deal for those of you in Europe, where you have all kinds of infrastructure and transit and stuff. But over here in the wild, wild west, we often spend a lot of time hitchhiking. So really cool signs. You can circumnavigate, circumvent, I guess is a better word, getting them by just going to his website. Those links to buy those, I think they're like 17 bucks. Are in the show notes for this show and for the last one, Adele Honte.
So you can go to those. But also if you want to just, if you can share the show on Instagram, Facebook, whatever, tag CloudBaseMayhem, I will see it. And I'll put you in a batch with the hats and I'll draw one out of there and send you a sign. So we've got a few of those to give away. So a cool way to support the show is just sharing it with your friends, letting other people know about it, trying to spread the knowledge. So without... Without further delay, please enjoy this really cool conversation with Till Galbraith. This took us months to put together, but it was well worth it. Enjoy.
Till, so great to have you on the show. We've been working at this for months, man. I'm sorry it's taken so long to make this happen, but you know, all good things with time. So I'm really excited to talk to you and hear about what you've been doing with NOVA all these years and the NOVA team. But before we started recording there, you said... You got into paragliding a little bit differently than most just because it didn't actually exist when you got into paragliding. Let's start off with that. Let's introduce yourself to the audience via your history.
Yeah. Well, actually, it did exist, of course, because I was not the one who invented it. But at that time, I was dreaming and fantasizing of a career of becoming a famous mountaineer. And one thing to achieve it was I worked in a mountaineering store. I'm from Munich.
And when we saw in the mags from the first photographs of paragliding, which was obviously coming from France, French are ahead in that case. We looked at it and said, damn, that would be cool to do some kind of climbing and then just be up there, have a fantastic launch site and then fly down. You don't have to walk down. That was so fascinating. So when we started, it was not actually that we were planning to fly. We just want to get rid of getting down, walking down and just get down somehow. The other guy there I started with was Carl Slezak, who has become the safety guru at DHB. And so what we did is we went to our boss and said, hey, you know, Peter, that's paragliding stuff.
That's so cool. And it will be great. And, you know, we are a great shop. So we should we should we should be ahead of the pack and do something on it. And he said, yes. And we also answered. We asked him. All kind of questions that he would have to answer with. Yes. Eventually asking. So what about you buy two wings and we take care how it works? And he said, yes. So it's true. He was he was actually he was. It sounds negative, but he was reasonably easy to manipulate.
If you put in a yes saying mood, he would he would say yes. And that's exactly what we did. So eventually it was in summer of 86, I think. There were two wings and we had absolutely no clue of how how to to operate them. There was no no license Germany yet. No paragliding school or nothing. But there was already that that video from what was his name from Webgy? Supermax. Do you remember? Yeah, of course. It's a supermax video you find on YouTube. So that was actually our instruction manual, because I mean, we were smart enough to start from the very beginning. Just spreading it out. And somewhere it was absolutely dead flat that we would wouldn't be run, wouldn't start flying, just just run.
And and then how does they how do they inflate this thing? I think they they're pulling the front ones. And it was really watching the video and then take wing and then go out on a green field and see how it works. And that's that's that's how we started. It was was years like like I think in 80s, no, 88. I think I went to a paragliding school in. Because by then there was a license and obviously you had to have a license to compete and stuff like that. And then it was still like like the boom times of paragliding. And the instructor said, oh, I can see you've done it before. So maybe you can assist a little bit because I'm actually a hang gliding teacher and I've done just 10 flights. And by that time we we had already done illegal like 50 flights or something like that.
So it was it was wild.
One of my one of my flying partners. Here, Nate Scales said that when he he had a guy come into the ski shop that he was working in and said, hey, does anybody want to learn how to paraglide? And and Nate didn't know what he'd never heard of it or seen it. Yeah, I want to learn how to paraglide. And the guy took him out to a hill and he lobbed him off the hill. And then Nate landed and the guy said, OK, now, you know, everything I know that was that was his instructor. You know, one flight. OK, well, that's it.
When was that? Oh, it was like 87. It's about the same time what you're talking about. Eighty seven. Eighty eight. You know, just right. Right. The beginning. I just you guys are such pioneers. I love I love the stories from back then. Well, then. So so you, you know, so you get into it. You start learning how to fly these kind of three to one gliders. I'm sure pretty much. Yeah. I
mean, today, today, just the Rogalo Reserve has a better LD than the wings we were flying at that time.
And I mean, the funny thing was like we were. We were absolutely aware that it is a potentially dangerous thing. And so we really took it step by step. I mean, first flat, then then a gentle training slope. And then finally, we walked up on mountains that we were hoping would end in some kind of a launchable spot. But we had to find out that nice climbing mountains typically do not end with grassy slopes that that are directed towards the. Wind. Yeah, sure. It was it was a nightmare. And also, like, knowing that the the performance of the wings was so bad, we were I mean, the most important instrument we had was that that LD meter.
Yeah. So you could see. I know. I think this mountain is not steep enough. Let's get a walk down. I think the first first three or four years was basically carrying up the stuff and then walking down again without climbing and without flying.
So none of the advantages you were shooting for. You weren't getting the climbing and you weren't getting the descent tool.
Exactly. Yeah. So that's how it all started. But I'm still doing it. I still like it so much. And I've never stopped. And I've never had an accident. I'm not even hurt myself. Really?
Yeah. Touch wood there. So so, well, give us give us the CV side of your of your flying career. I mean, that's almost 40 years. And I got that right. Yeah. Well, 30, 30, 35. Something. Yeah. Yeah. So did you did you eventually get into comp? Or, you know, what was the trajectory?
Yeah. I mean, what what happened is that particularly in the beginning is that the the performance of the wings was just I mean, the steps forward were just amazing. But but still, I mean, improving from one to three to one to five is almost doubling. But but still, it was only one to five. Yeah. But I remember the first German championships in 80, 87.
Luckily, funnily, there were two because DHV and the Aero Club both. Said it's it's my sports. We want to have paragliding. So there were two German two official German championships. And at that time, there was there were some people like like Tony Bender. I mean, he he he was he was always there and he was always flying and he had a long career as a as a hang gliding pilot. He knew what thermal flying is. I mean, we had no no idea of anything. I mean, we just we would walk up somewhere where we would hope it's launchable. And then. Find out wind from the wrong way and had no clue. And these guys, they these guys, they knew how to thermal. And I remembered it was already in 87 that that at one of the training runs, somebody was flying half an hour.
And I mean, all my flights had been less than five minutes, no matter how you were worse
than speed flying.
It was close to speed. It was a mix of speed flying, but just slowly. Right.
Just plummeting out of the sky slowly.
Yeah. Exactly. I like like close, close to the ground, following the contours. And but but I mean, having no idea of anything. And then, I mean, I thought half an hour. It was just unbelievable. And then, I mean, I saw somebody climbing up. And to me, it was like, what are they doing there? But still, it took me. I don't know. I think I'm not very talented. It took me years to actually be able to stay in. And at that time, it was I mean, you were cool when you had. I mean, first of all, you had to have neon clothes.
Look, looking at these old photographs. My wife, my wife, when she when she saw these photographs, if I had seen that before, I would have never married you. That's so embarrassing.
It's like, you know, what it's like is like looking at the pictures of my dad when he was a golfer back then, you know, like in the 70s and early 80s, you know, just the funniest bell bottom pants. And I mean, the stuff they wore. It's hysterical. But yeah, it's even worse with the paragliding.
Yeah. I mean, it had to be neon bright to be cool. So there was the neon neon times. And then eventually. Yeah. I mean, at that time, you were cool if you had neon clothes. You were cool when you did many flights and you were cool if you did long flights. I mean, not long distance, but just staying in the air. Staying in the air. And I remember it was maybe in my fourth year. Fifth year or fifth year, I was at Walberg, it's the wall mountain, if you translate directly, it's near directly close to a lake and with a north westerly wind, you have a breeze coming over that lake and then a very gentle soaring conditions.
And that was, I remember my first flight, you had to do six hours to be cool and I wanted to be super cool. So I was cruising there. Without any idea how to thermal, just going back and forth on that same slope for six hours, actually had to pee in my Gore-Tex pants because I'd never done such a long flight and I didn't take that into my considerations of things I should do before I launch. And I mean, when you've done five hours, you want to have these six hours. I had to pee in my pants, no question.
So then I became cool.
Once you pee in your pants, you're cool.
Yes, yes, yes, definitely. And then eventually I understood more how thermal flying works. But again, like the more talented people, well, they were already going cross country. And to me that it just didn't pop up into my mind. And also like you heard it, but you didn't see it. And then there was no online contest. It was just basically people who launched with you and then they were gone. And sometimes having a beer, people would say, did you hear he has flown 20 kilometers? And it's like 20 kilometers was just an unbelievable distance. Yeah. It's funny
when you get into it too. When I was first introduced to the sport, I was at Tiger Mountain just outside of Seattle. And, you know, a buddy of mine lived right at the LZ and he would go up and fly all the time. And so I would go over and I'd look up in the sky and I'd see all these people kind of bobbing around. It looked incredibly boring to me. It just kind of slowly bobbling around. And I, when I first got into it was 10 years after that. That I still didn't understand that people could go anywhere. I had just seen people fly around and then you land in the LZ and you have a beer. I didn't understand that you could actually take them to travel. Exactly. This was in the early 2000s. I was just clueless.
Yeah. But then, I mean, if, if, especially at Nova, we have the Nova pilots team, we have the, the juniors. And what I see now is, or since, let's say since 10 years, it's the second generation of paragliders. It's, it's children. Who grow up in a paragliding household and, um, and, and, I mean, since they, they, they started to walk, it, it was obvious to them that something happening there. And, and then they, they start at like launching flying with eight or nine illegally. And just seeing how they, how they ground handle and, and, and how talented they are. I mean, we've, we've been in the pilot's team. We have met people in their first year. They did 200 kilometer triangle. And the first legal year, let's say.
You know, at the, at the start of the X-Alps this year, it was so rainy and terrible. And Chrigel and I were kind of hiding in this little tent that they had for us. And he was showing me videos of his kids, you know, a six-year-old. I can't, I think the old one's nine or something. Can you imagine? I mean, Kriegel's kids. It's going to be fascinating watching what happens in the next 20 years with these, these kids that are, you know, coming into it. I mean, I didn't discover paragliding until I was in my late thirties.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, definitely. It will be. I mean, if you look at sports climbing, for example, it's, it's there, there are a couple of years ahead. And, and there, you see these young guys like 30 and 40 years old and they, they, they, they climb, climb nine C. Yeah. It's just unbelievable. Yeah.
It's just superhuman almost, isn't it? It's just, it's hard to even fathom. Well, that's a good, that's a good transition because I know that you were, you know, first describe, describe your role at, at Nova. And then I want to get into the Nova team.
Okay. Uh, well, after these, these early years, I did a bit of comp flying. Um, but, but I had to realize I'm, I'm not really good at it. Um, but it was more also like a social thing of, I mean, in the beginning where we were so little who did it, that you weren't happy to meet just anybody and have a chat with them. And, um, so I, I always kept on flying some years more intensively, some years less intensively and, um, concerning my, my business career. I, I was, I was chief editor of, um, outdoor magazine in Germany, um, similar to outside in the U S or closer to backpack. I would say my, my, my passion for traveling and the great outdoors and also taking photographs led into becoming the chief editor of a non-existent magazine.
I was a chief editor because it was the only one. Um, no, it was, it was the early days. And, um, from after that, I was, I was traveling for almost seven days. Um, I was, I was traveling for almost seven years, also trying to get, uh, doing living as a freelance writer and photographer, trying to get to the most remote place in the world, like sailing to Antarctica. And I've been on Pitcairn Island where the people, the descendants from the mutiny on the bounty live and walked across the ice cap in Greenland and spent 50 days on the Patagonian ice cap. So, and it was always somehow related with outdoor stuff. And during that time, um, I was asked whether I would, would like to work as a consultant or. Communication for companies from the outdoor industry, which eventually led in 99 that I founded a communications agency together with a business partner.
And we only do sports and outdoor at the moment, like working for Arc'teryx or Gregory Eagle Creek, GSI craft, um, companies like that. And since I was, I was, um, always flying, um, without, I mean, I was writing stories at that time for, um, German speaking magazines. But I. Had no, no plans of, of being deeper involved in that business. And it was a coincidence that the German representative for Nova had the feeling that Nova was not really too good at doing communications and PR. And he introduced me to Wolfie. Finally, I had never been flying in Nova wing, even though I knew the people all the time, but I had in the beginning, I had an elder car like everybody when they were, they were so dominant and then various other wings.
And it was. I think it was 15 years ago that, um, all that clients and clients introduced me to Wolfie, the CEO of Nova. And, um, well, if in the beginning was very reluctant because he thought that all these agency people, they just rip you off and do a lot of, a lot of talking, but, but never work. As I needed a new wing, the initial deal was I get a new wing. I think it was a carbon at that time. It was also the time. Yeah. Carbon was for me. It was, was the first time. Then I stepped back from, from higher class wing to. At that time, a one to two or today ENB wing. And because I had been caught by cross country flying and, um, and, and like being not that talented pilot, I realized that at time that if I, let me compare it with it, with a car, you have a certain amount of fuel in the tank.
And once the tank is empty, you're done. And, and like my ability to concentrate and to focus on, on flying. I found out I, if I fly a higher class wing, I spent fuel on having my wing under control and eventually make a wrong decision and then bump out and, and flying an ENB wing or one to two at that time, that wasn't balanced. I could do this for eight, nine or 10 hours. And because, um, what it required from, from my side on attention was, was something I was able to deliver that whole time. And if you, if you want to fly long, first of all, you have to try to prevent to land. If you stay in the air for a long time, eventually you will, you will go rather far.
And, and that was for me, like, like, um, like, like a key to, to fly much longer than, um, previously. And that was also the time when, when Nova contacted me. So I asked them for a carbon and as an exchange for writing some texts and stuff. And when it came to a point when, where I thought, well, now I've worked enough. Now I should get money for it. Um, it was Wolfie who contacted me and said, Hey, Till, I have to tell you something. I was pretty negative about agencies and guys like you, but, um, I think it can work. And that's, that's how it all started. And in the beginning I was only, I'm still working as a freelancer for Nova running my own PR agency or together with my business partner.
Um, but the involvement with Nova has become pretty deep. So we're still doing public research. But I was also then mainly responsible to have the idea of the Nova pilots team. And, and, and I'm also like, like a part of the team, like the general positioning of the brand and, and what, what we are doing. Um, it's, it's, they, they willingly accept my suggestions. Sometimes they do. Sometimes they don't, but, um, it's not so bad actually.
So, uh, yeah. And that's, that's why, that's where I want to talk about the, the Nova pilot team. The, the, you know, I. And you'll have to correct my time frame here, but, you know, about four or five years ago, maybe four, I was in Spike Bowden with Bruce and, you know, we were just flying. This was before we were kind of thinking too seriously about the ex-Alps and stuff. And there was this sudden just mentor, you know, Bernie Pesce and these guys that were just sending these massive triangles on the mentor. And it was just, it started blowing everybody away. It was really the talk of the paragliding community, well, still is in a sense. You know, these guys are just the first to put up the 300 FAI and just these huge lines on a lower end wing.
And it really just kind of reoriented how everybody thought about exactly what you were just saying, you know, having more energy in the tank. And, you know, Nova's approach. I can't say it's totally unique. I mean, there are other manufacturers out there that also don't mess with the CCC wings and, you know, the open class wings. But, you know, they have carved out a position there that has been really fruitful for them. And I think a lot of that, maybe, I don't know if that started before the Nova team, but I'd love for you to talk about that and the vision and how that played out.
It's all connected somehow. If you look at Nova in the old days, I think there were years, and I don't know which model it was because at that time I was not interested in comps anymore. And I don't know which were the top wings, but I know for sure that there was a year when Nova was so dominating in the paragliding World Cup that all other manufacturers together collected less points than just Nova. So, I think it was, was it the Xeon? Well, I don't know. People might correct me for that. But Nova was extremely strong. But what happened then is that the comp flying became so, yeah, moved away so far from the average pilot that people were just not so interested in it anymore.
And at the same time, this cross country flying happened. And there were lots of people who said, well, like myself, as a comp pilot, I'm not, I hate to go. I hate to go to places which are horrible flying. I mean, sometimes you have to fly through a lee. But with comps, you often have to go to places which are not so comfortable because that's just the task. And if I decide where I go, I can possibly fly around something. And so, I like that cross country thing a lot. And then it was also the time when the Leonardo started. And shortly after that, online contest. And then Leonardo. And then the RX contest.
And suddenly, you didn't have to compare with the best of the world. But you could compare yourself with your buddies on your home site. You could compare within your country. You could compare with other people who flew a B-wing. And it was, and then with GPS, it became simple. It was accessible. And then we thought, well, this is probably the, not the future, but the future that, that may appeal for the majority of the pilots. So, it was a strategical decision to say, we stop building CCC wings or competition wings, however they were called at that time. I mean, I asked in my local club, do you know who's the German champion?
Who's the world champion? And they never knew. And actually, at the last Nova Pilots team meeting, we were in Slovenia. And there were like 75, 80 people. I asked the same question again. And honestly, nobody knew.
Yeah,
it's a very, it's a very isolated end of the sport, isn't it?
Yeah, I'm not negative about it. It's just a matter of fact that as the majority of the people just don't care at all. And we also became aware of, like myself, without being a top pilot, but becoming aware that I can fly a longer distance with a lower class wing, that this is probably the case for several people. And then we said, okay, so let's have a pilot's team, which is completely different from the typical competition team. I mean, the competition team is basically, at that time, it was you buy the best pilots and then try to win. And you give them money. And Nova was really spending money on comps in the old days. But then we said, a lot of the paragliding stuff is not so much about winning and being the hero and being better than others.
But it's a lot of it is also, I mean, everybody's flying by himself. But a major part for, I think, is meeting the other guys and having a beer after you're flown. I think it's a highly social thing. Also, when you're traveling with a paraglider. I've been to Sicily for a week with some friends. And we got in touch with some local people, with Dario and Marco Busetta. I mean, you go there and you change immediately from being a tourist into one of us. And you're accepted. And that's the great thing about paragliding. So we decided we want to do something which focuses more on, first of all, cross country flying. And second, also like having a social component. Like if you want to become a Nova team pilot, you can be the best pilot in the world.
But if you're an asshole, we wouldn't take you. So we try to also have people who are simply nice chaps and also who are happy to share the experience. Not like having. You know, a mirror, mirrored sunglasses and be unbelievably cool. But if you ask them a question, they tell you, come on, go away and leave me, leave me alone. That's exactly what we don't want to have. We want to have like, like friendly people who willingly share the experience. And then at the same time, the performance of the, of the lower class wings became so good and, and that it happened altogether. But it was definitely also, let's say in, in looking at from, from a more, from a wider perspective, like, like. 15 years ago, if you were not flying a high aspect ratio wing, you couldn't be cool.
If you want to be cool, you had to have a hot thing and, and, and flying, flying like a, one of, one of, one of these Zeppelins, like, like an, like an iron today, which is performing fantastic. But at that time it was just not cool. If you were flying a Mambo, a mentor, you were not cool in the early days. But today, if I land too close to somebody with a, with an Enzo, you know, something like this, they fully accept me. Um, because they know I might have covered a longer distance than they, they did. And, and that's, um.
In a sense, you guys made, you know, flying the lower class wings cool again.
You're not cool again. We want to make it cool.
No, but you, but yeah, you made it cool. Not cool again, but you, you made it cool. It was suddenly, you know, I think, I think a lot of people went, wait a minute. Why am I flying this high aspect, hard to handle glider if I can just fly a mentor and go 300?
Yeah, exactly. And it was definitely also, um. A strategic decision to do this because we were, um, I mean, if, if I look at, at the Germany DHV, I think they, they, they issue every year, like 2000 new licenses. So we have 2000 people coming into our sport, but the number of wings sold basically stays flat. So that means the same number of people who get into it also get out of it. Yep. And the question is, why do they get out of it? Um, I mean, maybe. I mean, things like family, career, stuff like this, but I think also that, that in the past, at least there were definitely, I know a couple of people who had negative experiences, found themselves being in, in real shit and having no clue why it happened and being that totally exposed and have experienced this two or three times or also having an accident and just knowing, well, this, this is crap, but definitely some of them were wings that were, were way too hot for them.
And, and, but to, to be cool, you had to have it. So we, we hope that we could make the whole paragliding being more down to earth and, and more normal for normal people also by, by, by having the full acceptance of, of flying whatever you want. I mean, Robert Chala, another one of our team pilots, he flew a 200 kilometer triangle with a pry on three. It's, it's a, it's an instruction wing and he, and he's, I mean, he's a great pilot, but, um, on a good day, a good, a good day, a good day, a good day. A good pilot can, can fly bloody far without having a hot wing.
And what would you say to the argument in, in, I, you know, I, I know I'm not a wing designer and I, I don't believe you are either. You're more on the, the, the PR side of things. But the one argument I hear a lot is that, you know, if a company's not building open class, sorry, CCC gliders these days, uh, then, you know, the, the, the argument is that, you know, the ozones and, uh, gins, you know, the B because they're not, they're building, uh, comp wings, that that technology gets passed down through the brand, you know, so that starts showing up in the, the Bs and the Cs, um, you know, most brands don't make comp wings. So I don't know how much validity that has, but, you know, clearly that doesn't seem to have affected Nova at all. I mean, in other words, they're not really missing out on sales, uh, very much.
Cause I think everybody knows the economics of selling comp gliders. It doesn't really. It doesn't make any sense for a manufacturer. It's more for the fame and it's more for that. And what I hear is that it's more for that kind of, you know, if we, if we press it at that end, that it's going to come down through the rest of the gliders and make them faster, better, safer.
Well, um, if, if, if you, if you look at the formula one, that's what they also say. I, I don't have the impression that, that there is, uh, a huge performance benefit that, that. That the wings from, from, from ozone or, or Navy or gin to name the three most important and, and, and CCC, um, that they're lower class wings are reasonably better than let's say Skywalks and Nova's and, and swings. Um, so if there is some miraculous technology in it, it, to me, it doesn't show.
Yeah. It just doesn't, it doesn't show in the statistics, I guess, does it?
Yeah. Um. And of course, from the marketing standpoint, if, if I was ozone, I would do the same for sure. I mean, they were, they would be stupid if they didn't do it. Honestly, I, I can tell you that, that I see certain differences, um, that are in favor of them. Ozone at the moment and, and, and gin, they have the, obviously the two fastest and still somehow controllable wings. They do the business and everybody else, I don't know who said it, but somebody once told me building comp wings is actually like, like masturbating for the designer because
you have, if you have the best wing that everybody buys yours, and if you don't have the best bring, you actually have to pay people to fly it. Yeah. And, um, and it's, it's basically for the eager of the designer to do something like it. And, and, and I think the higher category wing you have, the more accurate everything has to be because all the tolerance are much smaller. And, um, and we can say on the other side. Yeah. On the other side, we have two full-time designers and we have three full-time test pilots and, and we spent all the energy that we have into making our E and B and E and A, and also like on the sector, E and C wings are Triton to make these wings, excellent wings and their category. And they, they, they don't spend their bloody time on, on making a product, which, which is masturbating for the designer.
And that's why our wings are better. That's, that's our marketing story that we could tell. Um, so. And
I mean, I think I, I saw, um, I saw statistics that somebody had put together a few years back on, on, on everything, every bit of gear that people can buy. And like you said, the attrition rate seems to be keeping up with the people coming into the sport. So, you know, every year it's about the same. So all these companies are fighting for the same piece of the pie and, you know, by far, I mean, it's, it's a, it's huge. The numbers of B and C wings is, is where you make your money. I mean, you're making it there. You're not making it in the DS and the comp wings. I
think ozone makes money. I'm sorry. The ozone is
definitely making it on the Zeno, but yeah,
definitely. I mean, if you look at the PMA statistics, I think it's, it's 45 % of all wings sold are ENB wings and another 25 ENA and, and then C, and then eventually they have to comp wings and then like specials like mini wings and other crazy, uh, acro stuff and stuff like that. But, but definitely, I mean, um, we, we focus on, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the Volkswagen golf category and in paragliding, try to make this category as good as we can.
So tell me more about the Nova team. How do you, how do people get on it? How many do you have on it? Are they, are these paid, are they paid positions or are they just gear, uh, or just partially gear? How does it work?
Yeah. If you can talk about it. Yeah. They, they all get unbelievably a lot of money and get 10, 10 wings free for per year. No, that's just kidding. Okay. I was just about to pass out. I was like, what?
No, it's, um, I think at the moment we are worldwide, um, like 90 pilots or something like it. You can, you can see it on, on, on our website. Um, it's a pilot's team, but something like 90, 90 pilots. And there's always, I mean, some, especially if we have the young ones, um, some of them are suddenly more attracted to, to acro, others start to fly, fly comp. I mean, uh, some of this. Really, really well-known pilots started with us, like, like, um, Paul Guschlbauer used to be a Nova team pilot. He was a Nova team pilot when he was young, then, uh, some of the, the young English chaps have been with us. Um, he was with us, so we've, we've had some young guys who proceeded very quickly and then said, okay, we want to fly in a category that you don't make and, and if they fully focus on this.
And, and actually decide to, to make a, try to make a living out of it, then it's, it's okay. But the good thing is we're, we're, we're still in touch with them and we're still friends with them. And, um, because I think a lot of, I mean, you shouldn't be too narrow minded. Sometimes people are, but, but we try to be rather open and just be, as I said, try to be nice chaps. So if people apply for, for team pilot, it's, I mean, in the, in the beginning, we didn't know how it would work. Okay. So what we did in the early days, we, it was only limited to German speaking countries. And I was approaching people that I knew from the online contests who were already flying mentors or mambus successfully and, and pretty long distances.
And then I asked them, oh, we have an idea. And this, this is our vision. What do you think of this? Yeah, exactly. This is what I'm already doing. Cool. Yeah. And I like Nova. And, and I think everybody that I asked willingly joined the team. Yeah. And it, it was like, they had the same idea that we had. So it started with the 15, 20 pilots in the first year. I think it's now since it's 12 years old, the pilot's team, but it started in, in, in, on, on a very small scale and, and, and it was just growing organically. And it was not the case that, that, that the management at Nova decided, oh yeah, let's spend a fortune on this. It was rather. Giving it a try and see how it would work.
And yeah. And then we realized it works and then we, we made the international team open it up and then added the juniors who unfortunately don't stay juniors forever.
So now that's, I mean, that's, this is like a constant change there. Definitely. Let's talk
about that real, real briefly till the, the junior juniors team is, I think just so smart and, and something we need. We need really worldwide because we just don't have enough young people getting into the sport. I mean, to, to, to sustain paragliding, we need more young people getting into it. And so tell me about the juniors team.
Yeah. I mean, it was basically the, the, the same idea. If, if, if you apply as a, as a team pilot first, you mostly starts with an email and then I asked them, so why do you apply? Why do you apply at Nova in particular? In particular. And it's often that people just think, oh, I would like to be a team pilot. And then you realize like a job application that they don't really look at what your team or what your brand stands for. They just, I mean, I've also re received applications where they forgot to, to change the names that, Hey, at, at, at Skywalk, I want to become a team pilot, which is not the best, best start for a positive answer.
But, but. And, but many of them who actually apply for the Nova pilots team have met other team pilots and, and, and they are pretty, pretty much aware of, of our way of doing things, which as you say, I think we're pretty different from most of the others. At least we're the, we were the first ones to focus on cross country flying and, and absolutely. And strategically ignore the comp world. And so the first, first contact is with an email. And then, then I, I checked. Yeah. how yeah it's a lot of guts feeling um and then we send them the team vision which which explains pretty detailed of of what we have in mind it also explains that being a team pilot is not only taking that it also means giving um that we expect them to to have rather good communication skills and and and willingly write occasionally something for the team blog um give feedback on the wings yeah and you asked about uh do they get money or something no we have we have a system um we have a and b pilots everybody pays for his wing and everybody owns his own wing so it's it's nova never sides directly to end consumers it's always schools and distributors with the exception of the team pilots and and we consider them to be more like brand ambassadors so that in the end they should help our um partners to to sell more wings then we have the system of a and b pilots the a pilots are the ones that that simply do great flying in terms of results but you can also become an a pilot by contributing to the team whatever it may mean it can be doing videos it can be delivering great content that we can use on facebook it can also be that you are the one who organized the next team meeting it's mostly that that we try to go to different locations always the first weekend in october because the xc flying season is over and and people people are down to earth again and and not not i i remember when christian pichler he stopped flying unfortunately meanwhile um he was leading in in the sports sports class on x contest and i was talking to him some some time in early september christian how's life ah i'm stressed i'm so completely stressed you know christian he he runs he owns a company he's he's a whole wholesaler for for wood and and wooden stuff like um like floor and and and there's a big company i think he employs more than 100 people so running a company with 100 people and being an ambitious paraglider often doesn't go together too well and you know now i'm leading now i want to win but you know then i see where the forecast good so somebody might might might defending his defending his position that's the downside of x contest for sure
once you leave do you really want to win and i'm looking so much forward to end of september then everything's over and he was completely stressed so um i mean so coming coming back how to become a team pilot you could you can do you can achieve great results but you can also do videos do some writing sell articles place photographs and magazines uh having your own website doing videos or just be like a super nice guy kind of a respected not not even local hero but somebody who who enjoys a positive reputation as a as a good pilot but also as a reasonable pilot we don't want any daredevils actually i'm i'm actively encouraging all our team pilots if they go xc and and they feel it's turbulent and they decide to land i encourage them to land and say i found it was too bumpy i was scared i landed because i be honest about it yeah just be honest and i mean what's the of being a hero but who is who's doing things that are kind of crazy and it takes once yeah and and and and i i think it's also that we have a clear rule it's always more important if you see somebody who throws his reserve i expect our team pilots to be the first ones to land and to go there and and help and forget about the 200 or 300 kilometer triangle um have the others because that's what i would like to see and that's what i would like to see and that's what i would like to hope that somebody else does so we we we put a lot of emphasis on positive personality in the largest sense yeah that's great and then when when i have the feeling that they might fit they get a pretty long application form that they have to fill in where they actually have to reflect about their their own flying and about what we expect and whether they fit with nova and we've had in the past that people said you know what i thought about it luckily i'm in a position that
you need to i'm not look actively looking for a cheaper wing i think i rather prefer to buy the wing that i think is the the nicest for me in that season and i don't want to sell myself to any other brand and like like i mean we don't have contracts everything is based on on trust and and it's it's it's easy going i highly respect people who say well i don't want a cheaper wing i prefer to buy whatever i think is the nicest and and that's quite cool actually yeah
for sure is it is it possible these days you know i think you know the kind of like kite surfing the days of of you know huge contracts and money and winning you know in winnings that's obviously all gone um but is there you know you mentioned aaron and paul who have carved out you know pretty nice living through sponsorship through red bull and that kind of thing but you know is it is it possible as a as a pilot to you know create a life from flying with nova or is it you know the
it's uh you you get some you get some gear and you've still got to figure out a way to live
none of our our team pilots is is um making anything which might be even close to make a living no no everybody has a has a normal job or is still studying or something like it but um and i think in in general it's
if somebody asked me i want to make a living in the world of paragliding well as a as a let's say really difficult yeah and um and but that's that's that's the same also in mountaineering and expedition stuff generally um but there at least the whole industry is bigger and there's there's simply more money um i mean the paragliding industry it's it's worldwide compared to other industries it's ridiculous i mean we're we're a little freak show yeah
yeah yeah
and and i mean just looking at at let's say north face i don't know what the turnover is i think it's like something like like two billion
dollars i don't know what the turnover is i don't know what the
turnover is i don't know what the turnover is i don't know what the turnover is um i don't know how big the paragliding industry is overall but it's definitely not that big yeah so so yeah i think Chrigel is probably the only one who can live reasonably from being a hero and then already for aaron and paul uh i think they're not getting rich no they get and also looking at my other work as a as a communication agent for for for companies from the outdoor industry these guys might start making a living when they have become so well known that the people from outside the paragliding industry get interested in them exactly
i think within paragliding it's it's nearly impossible exactly
and and and and a lot of like Theo De Blic he he does these great videos and if you get interested interesting to let's say the automotive industry that they they look for somebody who can do some crazy stuff or is partnering with you money is involved but but working uh living trying to make a living within the paragliding industry as a as a sponsored athlete it's yeah you have i mean you have to be extremely good but as a pilot but at the same time be extremely good in marketing yourself yeah
like a jean baptiste chandelier i think exactly yeah jean
baptiste is a very good example yeah um and also if you look at his his his uh number of followers on on facebook or on youtube i mean he simply does great stuff but these big numbers come from people who do not fly themselves yeah these are people who who watch uh red bull tv and get appealed by all kind of adrenaline almost self-suicidal stuff yeah i mean i i see red bull with with um i mean the exiles is fantastic but honestly if if i see at what conditions you guys fly there uh it's it's to me it's sometimes insane i mean i'm doing it because i like flying it's definitely on the edge and and i think it's i i highly admire michael gebert when he said the last time okay we've come to a point where i don't want to do it anymore and and i withdraw and that that takes a lot of courage also to say this yeah
that was a that was the day that tom crashed and uh he and i were in the exact same spot michael was just behind us and i mean it was just madness and it had been you know michael vichy's through through his reserve the day before i mean we were just fighting so much wind and it's you know that's the kind of stuff that's really hard to see from the live tracking you know we're just just constantly you know all day uh just battling these horrific conditions and it was uh yeah that now i had he and i had to talk about that this year down in brazil i really admired him for that as well and
and so becoming a professional pilot
i think you have better chances to work as a test pilot um because that's what what the manufacturers need and and looking at for example mario ada who has been nova for long has been away and then came back and mario i think is very good at at um also finding the right trim for wing and that's that's a very special skill it's also looking at formula one you know there's drivers who never win a race but as a test driver they they are unbelievably important and to the manufacturers you need these and there there are some test pilots who are good at at doing or repeating like almost like a machine they they certification flights and all the incidents that you have to create and but then there are guys like mario who are very good at at actually making the wing suitable for what it is designed for and and if you're good at that you definitely have a better chance to make a living from from paragliding than becoming a star like like
till what do you see in you know you've been following this you you really helped create it the the nova team and you've been following these kids the juniors and the in the international team pilots for years now um what do you see that separates those that you know get on the team and just keep this kind of skyrocket uh learning and they just keep getting better and better and better and you know they just keep achieving more versus the ones that maybe drop off or leave or you know leave the sport maybe but you know are you do you see a kind of a do you see a common thread there generally
i think it is with paragliding like with every other not only sport but with every other skill may it be painting singing writing whatever you have a certain amount of talent and you you can improve by practicing and that are definitely people who have an unbelievable talent and and they they yeah like people say Chrigel the eagle i mean he's he's basically a bird accidentally born in form of a human being he's he's just so much better and also like we have a couple of pilots who who are outstanding not only bernie pestle i mean but bernie is a good example i asked him bernie if you want to fly long that means you have to fly fast and stay in the air and and bernie first of all he he's just unbelievable in finding the right moment to fly and and and and he's just incredible in finding the right moment to fly and when he can launch he's so often he's the first but somehow he never never is too early so he launches and and then finds a thermal and goes up and then he's extremely good at thermaling and like he's super efficient like like he just knows where where's the core and where do you get up as fast as possible and then he has sometimes these yeah these magic lines like Chrigel flies them you look at his track and he's just not thermaling he's just flying and he doesn't lose altitude and i asked him how do you decide which line you fly and he said oh you just look around and i fly but but but but how do you make a decision and he said honestly i didn't know i just fly and then i think come on there must be some secret he's yeah it's it's he can't explain himself and and and we have a couple of other people's like people like like chris bessai who's who's um i mean he joined as a junior and um i think he was he had just turned 16 but he had already been flying five years when he joined the team also living living at at the at the landing and yeah growing up with paragliders and um
funnily he always stayed he was never too much appealed into competition flying but always um i think the highest wing that he ever flew was was a factor so enc wing and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and he's a super smart guy also in it he does the nova website and i mean he's he's really super intelligent and he doesn't fly that much anymore but if he goes flying he easily does a 250 kilometer triangle and and he's also one of the one of these guys like like when i fly want to fly long if if i if i try to be fast then i bump out if i fly to if i try to fly safe i'm slow so and and and i see these young kids just rocketing towards towards me passing me and and i think oh okay maybe i should take that terminal just be safe be high and they just fly and fly and fly and they they go to a spot where it's like they can see the elevator where it goes up and i just don't see it and they are just just better and it's it's i mean it's yeah that people are they are are super talented i'm not i have to accept it but it's but it's okay that's the way it is
yeah that's and we have to know where we fit isn't it i think that's one of the the greatest ways to to be safe is to just know your abilities and know where you are and and and try to try as hard as you can to remove the ego from it uh which in things like the xops is pretty hard to do but till i want to be mindful of your time i know it's getting late your side of the world and you got to get on the autobahn and go to finland so i've got one more one more question for you mentioned right in the early part of the show that you know you've been flying since 86 uh i'm doing my math correctly that's a lot of years and uh and you've never had an accident can you tell us what you attribute that to because i imagine that's probably changed over the years you know i'm sure you weren't always conservative and smart none of us are uh
yes no no i would say generally as a personality i'm more on the cautious side um which may sound i mean you know it if you tell people you're a paragliding pilot then they always say oh you are you are brave you're courageous which i think being being extremely courageous or or willing to to to to risk something is is not sometimes not too favorable to do it for a long time being cautious or at least having respect helps a lot and so i was always more on the cautious side also in the beginning i was smart enough to know it is a dangerous thing and also like coming from from a background as a as a as a climber or mountaineer you you are very much aware of of dangers like people dying in avalanches and stuff like that are just falling i mean that time that there were there were hardly any bolts you had to do all the beelaying by yourself like with rocks and stoppers
i was always very cautious so that's one reason the second reason i think is at least in germany i have the impression that there are several schools who do not have the the target to turn a paragliding beginner into a self-relying pilot because i mean as a teacher you're a good teacher if you make yourself redundant then you're the best teacher because then then you've passed on your knowledge your experience but in terms of paragliding there are schools who who think if if i if i do my job too well i will i will lose a customer and and they don't really teach people to become self-responsible and i i know quite a few people who who pass their license and then suddenly now now i'm a pilot and nobody else is telling me what to do
like during your instruction you're teaching is the god i mean he tells the conditions are good go and you trust i mean you basically you give him your life and then suddenly you're standing at the takeoff and there's nobody who tells you hmm it's good or it's not so good and you stand there and you're wondering is it good is it not good and and i think a lot of a lot of schools don't do this and the way we started i mean i never had some kind of instruction i always from the from day zero i decided what i'm doing and i'm very good at saying no and and and i'm very good at making decisions and i mean last year i i was i was flying in this dolomiti superfly which is like like like mini X-Alps and um i was looking at some of these people when they were flying same same as you said i think come on guys i mean it was end of june beginning uh end of may beginning of june so every day i had double digit you know climb parades and almost every day there were thunderstorms and like i land if i see a thunderstorms building up i land immediately i don't want to come to a point where i have to fight to get down and and and i saw people flying conditions when come on and in particular as i mean you're not getting rich you're not you're hardly getting even if you get famous you you get famous in in in the microcosmos of paragliding who cares
yeah who in the world cares nobody and and and then i say that's that's not worth it and and now also like age matters a lot um i've definitely become even more cautious than than than i ever was and i've i've seen too many accidents and i've lost too many friends um so at the moment i'm flying a phantom which is super low b in terms of safety and it just you know i'm more relaxed with that and um and i'm more relaxed with that and i'm more relaxed with that and i'm more relaxed yeah but but but still i'm almost world champion and having fun ah
yes that was an awesome exclamation point oh that's great i i love it um okay i we should just end there because that was rad and that's a perfect ending but you you brought up something that i gotta ask about because this is actually starting to bother me a bit with the as i'm hearing this a lot also from our guests is there any this is a monumental task but you know so much okay you could be an APPI school or a school whatever you know there's a million of them yeah it's so dependent on that person you know who you go to are you a kinetic it it's totally dependent on how you learn as a person but also who you go to for the school and like you just said you know you've you've got this person that's a god you've got them on the radio and they're telling you what to do and then it's done you get your certification and it's done
no idea what you don't know and some of us get lucky and make it through that period and some don't and and uh i mean i'm finding it it's really frustrating depending on where you go and when when you're just learning you have no idea where to go um you know you might go because you see it outside your window and you know if you're in europe you see people flying all the time but here you you really tend to have to travel a long ways and you go to somewhere and there's a you know there's a school and you take the you take the course and then you're cut free but that course is so dependent on you know what kind of weather you got that week you know what the mood was with the instructor you know it just goes on and on and on is there any way or is there any push for that to change to kind of standardize this because you know if you go to one site you might become a really good ground handler which i think is just paramount in in staying safe and you go to another site and they're lobbing you off a hill you're never going to get the ground handle you know it's not going to be a good ground handle it's just it doesn't work there and so unless that unless that instructor really impresses on you that ground handling is important you're not going to do it yep
i agree now i have have no idea of of what to do and how to achieve it um i think the the only way is actually like when the authorities let's say dhv or an hour in germany when they have these courses where where they where instructors become they're not going to be able to do it because they're not going to do it because they're not going to do it because they're not going to do it because they're not going to do it instructors um that they have to be definitely much more looking into their let's say psychological skills in terms not focus much more on this i mean it's it's very hard how can you say you you are not suitable to become an instructor it's it's i mean there's nothing you can measure you can see how somebody's flying whether he can he can master his wings and all kinds of conditions whether he he he's landing on the spot and stuff like this but um
it's it's um it's it's a very delicate topic but then again if i look at at the how to become a mountain guide i
was just thinking the same thing i mean if you you know my friends that are ifmga guides they are there isn't one of them that's kind of weak they're all amazing i mean they they have they have gone through thirty thousand dollars worth of instruction it's taken them years and years and years they're super dedicated i mean if you go on an avalanche safety recourse you know it's going to be good you know it's going to be taught by amazing people who are super passionate about it and i i guess maybe the difference is there is you know you know you can make a living being a guide like i don't know i it's it's uh yeah it's not as rigorous like you said it is sensitive but it needs to be as rigorous in paragliding i mean you need to know that you're going to a great instructor exactly
um i think that should be much much stricter um one thing is like to to make this i mean you have to do
flying uh when you when you when you want to be allowed to to do the instruction courses but then actually allowing somebody to be an instructor that should be much much stricter that that i think is is the only way how to do it and maybe these the the the associations should look much closer into what what the mountain guides are doing because it's the same here the the young mountain or younger younger generation of mountain guides i would say there's hardly anybody who is not there they're all excellent mountaineers and climbers and skiers but there's also there's nobody anymore who's kind of of a freaky personality they are they are really good and and they are really mentally very strong and and and they all of them do a good to excellent job which i would not say is the case with with the average paragliding instructor in the alps definitely
not and not and not anywhere that i've been i think it really depends i mean there there are great ones out there absolutely uh you know i'll be talking to fabian blanco with flyo here next week on the podcast who's just terrific but i i think it's almost one of these things where we need more regulation which everybody hates but it's almost the only answer is to have you know like the ifmga stuff you know that you have to go through so many different loops and courses and like you said in psychology they're grading you on on how you're you're getting up and it's kind of silent behind the scenes and then they they really tell you how well you did and it can be hard to stomach and um you know i i think it it has to be something like that like i i know and i know there are certain countries that do this but you know like a certain amount of sivs that you have to have before you can even go xc you know this stuff like that i just don't see a way around that i mean it if we want to make it safe which it isn't
yeah yeah yeah definitely no but it's it's it's the the key thing is to actually teach people to clearly identify their their their level of flying and then make them be able to fly in conditions that they they can fully handle that it never gets out of control i wouldn't wouldn't say i mean i'm i'm i'm a strong believer in of sivs definitely but if if you just want to do some recreational flying like where i live a couple of years ago there was a mountain which is now banned for for launch that um every time i went there it's a hike and fly 500 meters altitude gain nothing nothing spectacular and every time i there there were three retired guys sitting there and they had it was a couple of years ago they all had this um the peak you know this this first lightweight wing ever and and sometimes they would even share a bottle of wine they said come on guys you're drinking but why are not flying conditions are perfect he said you know what we're too old for us it's recreation we wait until there's no more thermals and then we gently fly down we have any ambitions at all and we just
enjoy ourselves and even have a wine together and then fly down um i love it i mean of course if there's an incident maybe the lucky leader but there never obviously was one but um i would i wouldn't say that you have to force people into sivs
you're right you're right yeah that probably is extreme but some you know some some kind of like a checkbox system you know that you yeah that you have to kind of work through to in order to do certain things where you're not just so on you know maybe hopefully you're at a launch like anisee and there's plenty of other pilots around who can help you out when you're when you're learning but you know a lot of the places we fly here at home it's you you know and you're just when you're when you're learning it can be pretty scary yeah
yeah and and and one other thing that might help is also like uh especially in the out there's lots of clubs and i think on on club level that might might be i would say like a good pool where people can help each other after they have finished their their their instruction and and it's also like yeah helping each other learning from each other that's also like we we it will be end of april we will have a a new competition format is called the nova xc team challenge and we will have 25 team pilots but not only exclusively nova team pilots that will form teams with four pilots who are get into into one small five person team by kind of some kind of lottery so people don't know who they will fly with and and they should fly together and learn from each other fly with radio and the team pilot the the the the team leader is actually there to help them and ideally they fly together and um and we put a strong focus on that fun and learning thing and and less on on winning and that's going to be pretty interesting and and it's and it's xc flying so it's not typical comp flying the the team decides where they go and what they plan and then they try to fly together and and it's it's going to be really interesting how it works because herman klein who is like the race director he did this on a on a club level and said it was a big success and we were wondering will people like it it's it's different from everything else and does that flying in five people gaggles together will it work we have a different level of skills and
but the good thing is um it's already booked out and if you want to apply now you're on the waiting list and and considering that it's the first time that we do it and nobody knows how it works at least it sounds appealing
that's great that's an awesome idea i love it and there seems to actually be kind of a shift towards that you know one of the guests i had on recently marco um just ran a race kind of like that down in valle so instead of like a race to goal it was just we start here and we try to get back here so it was it was encouraging triangles but it was basically the the scoring system was a combination of x contest and speed and aspect ratio so not even e and b or c or d but aspect ratio uh in terms of uh how how they figured out the i want to try to say not not the points but the handicap and and then you were encouraged to just you basically won if you chose the right thing to do that day and went really big and it was it you know so it was encouraging people to do that and it was encouraging people to not go into dicey places not have to fly in the league all the time like you do on a task and uh and you know from all reports i wasn't in it but all reports it was just a blast and you know and it's really it was geared to really find out who's the best xc pilot you know in that kind of format Chrigel would definitely win but uh he would
always win yeah he always won everything but you know
it was it i and i think there's a real push that way but it
and i i think that's that's a yeah a great way forward well congratulations on on doing i think that's a great idea
yeah we we have the same handicap like like we have three it's maximum is e and c so no d and no cc wings and we also have a handicap on on the um aspect ratio so we have four aspect ratio categories um so we we picked up some of the ideas but then again we try to encourage a lot this this um this this the the team idea people flying together having it planning together yeah
that's great
creating new teams it's going to be interesting to see how it works i i i mean i hope we're lucky with the weather and but but so far i'm i'm pretty positive but we can we we we we will see um beginning of may so it's it's going to be 27th of april to first of may in greifenburg so oh
perfect spot to do it yeah that's a great site well i'll check back in with you on that till thank you so much i'm gonna let you get on the road i really appreciate this uh lots of great info there and uh best of luck to you and i can't wait to spin around in the sky doing the absurd thing that we do one of these days
yes thanks a lot thanks for the for the interview and i think actually we've we've met on on the X-Alps uh three years ago because you were passing our house and i was standing on the road and giving you some some apple juice ah no way that's right
until of course of course good that was so good i just downed it
yeah of course yeah yeah i didn't
i did not put that together that's i i now for sure i remember that very very vividly yeah that was oh that was
good man
thank you for that yeah it's a
small world it's a nice world it
is a nice world till thank you very much thanks
cabin and um hopefully see you soon see you soon
i
hope you enjoyed that really cool to sit down with these folks that have been in the sport since the very beginning and get their take hope you learned a lot from it and if you are getting something from the show uh please support us you're you can support us in a number of different ways doesn't have to be financial although all we've ever asked for is a buck a show so you can kind of treat it like a magazine subscription you can support us through the cloudbasedmayhem.com you can see the links there to support us on a one-off donation through paypal or as a kind of a set it and forget it and be rewarded for doing so through patreon.com forward slash cloudbasedmayhem but you can also just share the show talk about it with your friends on the way up to launch tell the school share it with your club you know there's a lot of different ways to get the word out there this is all about just spreading knowledge but your support goes a long ways as you can imagine this takes a lot of time a lot of money and uh but it's fun we're going to keep doing it and we really appreciate your support and we'll see you on the next show cheers