63. Adél Honti and what makes a successful pilot - Adél Honti

Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloud Base Mayhem. Really psyched to bring you this show. For a long time, people have been asking me to get Adele Honte on the show. She just got third overall, not in the women's, but overall, down at the Columbian Open. She's only been flying comps for about five years, but has been flying since 2004. And in all those times between 2004 and the comp years, maybe got like 100 hours. Just, you know, didn't really get it, didn't understand what all the fuss was about. You know, loved flying, but didn't really understand cross country. So she's got this amazing kind of bridge between, you know, kind of the newbies and the expert. And she's also super analytical. So we get into all kinds of real deep stuff on what makes a really good pilot in training.

The kind of physical, technical, and mental aspects of it. Talk a lot about team spirit. And, you know, what the French and the Swiss and the Germans are doing. And compared to other teams that don't have the funding for that, is that kind of a requisite for success. All kinds of technical stuff on how to fly fast and how to score well. But just also how to enjoy it. And I got all the conversations we have on the Mayhem. It just made me a better pilot. I love every one of them. I cherish every one of them. But I think I got more out of this talk than any of the others. So you're right. You're really going to enjoy it. Before we get to it, a few little things of housekeeping. Josh Heater sent me these really cool, super, super, super lightweight signs. Cross Country Magazine is making them as well.

But they're these little things you can stuff in your bag that pop out. They're made of this real thin but durable fabric that just says, pilot needs to ride to car. Don't need too many of those in the Alps. But for those of you that fly in really remote places, I find that that goes a long way rather than just hitchhiking. So I've got a few extra of those to give away to you. You, our listeners. In the past, we've done all kinds of fun challenges and that kind of thing or reviews or sharing it. I don't have a way to single it out. So just do something cool with this podcast. Share it with your friends or share it with a group or do a review and just make sure I've seen it. And you'll be in to win one of those and ship one off in the end of next month or something. So get started right with the season.

The other bit of housekeeping is just it's spring for those of us in the Northeast. Northern Hemisphere, things are going to start turning on here again. And this is always a time of the year where we see typically statistically a lot of accidents because we're, you know, we're not real tuned up and skiing or doing other stuff for the winter and spring thermals can be pretty sharp. So just, you know, make sure you got you've gotten all your reserve and rescue gear totally in order. Take it easy in the beginning. Take it slow. Take your time. Get your SIVs under your belt. Make sure you get those stalls dialed. Um. Uh, before you really go for it, just, uh, you know, the season is long, but it's really short if you go out and get hurt right off the bat. So take it easy, folks, uh, be conservative, dial it up as, uh, as you know, how, but don't, don't over overstep how far, you know, where to go.

So, uh, yeah, anyway, just a quick reminder to be careful. It's spring. That's when things go wrong. Adele Hanti. This is just an awesome talk. A little bit longer than some of the ones we do. And that's just because I didn't want to stop it. It was just fantastic. There is a lot here. Uh, so without, uh, further delay, please enjoy this conversation with Adele Hanti.

Adele, so great to have you on the show. I've been dying to talk to you. We've had many, many, many requests and it was kind of timely because when I was down in Australia, uh, hanging out with Chris and some of your fans, I guess you'd call them, uh, you were crushing down in Columbia. And so usually, uh, I would ask, uh, our guests to give a little bit of their history in paragliding. We're going to get to that, but I thought we might, uh, start at a different way this time with you and just have you tell the listeners a great paragliding story, whether that's something that you did yourself or you saw, or you heard, or, you know, what's kind of the craziest, coolest, wildest, neatest thing you've done in the sky.

Yeah, I'm very, very honored to be here. So thank you so much for inviting me. I really love this podcast, so it's, it's absolutely great to, to be in it. And I was thinking when you asked that, uh, I have a recent story, it's actually from Rolda, this competition, a couple of weeks back, uh, I heard so many stories about, uh, fires and, you know, how dangerous they can be, but I never actually experienced that myself. And in this competition, uh, it was not, uh, prohibited to, to fly in the fires and we had some weekdays. So there was this, uh, this day, which I think decided, uh. Uh, for me that I ended up on, on the overall podium, which was really, uh, surprising. I was really elated to, to fly so well.

And, uh, I think if I have to put my finger on it, what was the deciding factor? Then I would say that that one single decision, when we went into that fire, one of the last days, and it just started as, as like a normal 1.5 maybe. And we went through it once already. We did a turn point, the final one. And on the way back, we did a turn point. We stopped there again because the whole weather was just really dying. It was all shaded out everywhere. And we had like 15 or 20 more Ks to go. So we saw it as really the last opportunity to, to raise, uh, or get some height. And it was very mellow at the beginning, but I guess I just didn't see how quickly it turned out, uh, to be something very dangerous.

Well, I was in, in the leading gaggle with Brad Gunuskio, with, uh, Krisha Berlinger. And we had Kaliche from, from Columbia, awesome local pilot there and myself. And, uh, I think there were, uh, a big group behind us just coming into that fire as well. And I saw Krisha Berlinger coming up with maybe a five or a six meters per sec, uh, you know, lift. And it looked also steady. So I, I remember pushing the bar with all I had going in it and I was already in the lift. But the moment it just hit me, I was elated and I was shouting to Krisha like, Yahoo, that's it. We are going to make it to go. And then we are going up. We have like two or three turns.

And what I didn't see because it was so dark in the smoke already and we had black things flying all around. I didn't see that he was riding this bubble. It was like riding a wave that behind him, this very frightening and scary black smoke was brewing because the, the Pacific wind just picked up. And the fire started to burn like crazy. So I didn't see this bubble coming up below him. But after a couple of seconds, it hit us. And it was like a washing machine. I remember. Thanks God. I did an SIV already on this wing because I had everything you can imagine. All the collapses to the left and the right going behind me in front of me. And, and I, I even installed the open side in a collapse one.

So I had a spin. I did everything. So I was telling myself with all I had, I've done this before. I've done this before. I'm stealing control, but I was so scared. And there was one moment when the glider just disappeared. I don't know where it went, but I remember having that doubt, you know, Oh, this might be trouble. And next thing, what went through my mind is what happens if I throw a reserve in the middle of a fire? I mean, it's possibly very silly. But then you

hope you got a beamer then. Oh, yeah,

I have, I have a square and a beamer. And yeah, well, I, I think, I think not necessarily skill was what saved me there, but the bubble was really a bubble and we just fell to the side of it. So we just lead to the side in the turbulence. And when we were already on the side and, and, and the glider just rearranged itself somehow. Then. I could, I could manage that and I could fly out of this fire. And I remember not hearing anything except my own heartbeat. It was like beating so fast and so loud that I had to actually put some mental effort to calm my mind and looked around and I saw Kaliche. I saw bread coming out. I saw, I saw Krisha as well.

And that I look back and everybody landed. Like everybody decided, okay, this is too much or, or they went, went out. And it was only. The four of us, no one else. And we had a very gentle flight to the goal. I mean, it was not football anymore. It was just survival. And we had to, had to stop twice with birds solo that we were really thinking that, you know, we might not make it, but I had a very, very strong conviction that the four of us would just make it to go. And I was repeating, repeating this and we crossed the goal line. So low that we couldn't even turn into the wind to land. So we were landing right crossing the top of the trees and just hit the goal line.

And wow, that happiness, the four of us on the retrieve car, it was not, it was just one, one chip taking the four of us back. And wow, it was absolutely amazing. That

is amazing. I have a more, more somber fire story. Many people will probably remember. This or heard about it on the forums or that kind of thing, but I'm kind of surprised they, uh, they still allow fire flying because they, in 2012, uh, that was all very much still allowed. And in the Superfinal in 2012, it was one of the last days and the leading gaggle, uh, came up on like a proper Inferno. It wasn't one of these just, you know, fires that's kind of milking along. It sounds like kind of what you got into it, but it was just really, really going off. And, uh, a bunch of guys were low. And it was like a proper column, you know, like the, the definition between clear sky and black was just like a line. And, uh, and Chrigel went into it and a bunch of guys did it, but Yassin went in like 50 feet off the ground.

You know, he was really low as classic Yassin out in front and pushing hard and, uh, just completely lost his glider. And he ended up 2000 feet above cloud base and, uh, his, he broken a whole bunch of lines at that point. And his glider was wrapped up so many times and twist. He figured over a dozen times that it was like a rope over his head. And so as soon as he kind of came out of this insane lift, Chrigel caught it. He had to full stall three times and Chrigel had it on his instrument. It went online, a picture of it. He was in 20 meter climb. It was just proper scary. And, uh, anyway, Yassin went to throw his reserve and realized, oh my God, I can't throw it now. I might land back down in the fire. So just like you, he just kind of.

Waited for a couple of minutes, you know, under this kind of rope over his head. And then finally he threw. And the next day at the, you know, the task briefing the next morning, uh, Luke Armand got up and he was almost like in tears, just really upset. And he just like, listen, I don't come to these things to watch my friends die. We're not, we're not doing that anymore. We're not going to be cloud flying anymore. That's it. Or I'm going home. So I'm surprised, you know, is it such a, I mean, it happens every day. They light those fields up this time of year. I'm surprised that they, they still allow it, but that's a happy fire story. I like that one.

Yeah. But you know, on the other hand, I have to mention that once we got back to headquarters, we met Miha Gierlach who won this competition and he is absolutely a stunning example of a very, very, uh, controlled, amazing pilot. And he told us that he was, he was leading this whole comp, but at that point, when we went into the fire, for some reason, he was a little bit behind us and not by much. Maybe like halfway. Half a minute, but that was already enough that he saw how crazy it was all turning out and he decided not to fly into it. And when we met him back in the headquarters, still in that elated state, you know, he, he just told us in the, in the calm, uh, voice of his that I think that was irresponsible, irresponsible.

So I decided to lend because at the end of the day, this is just a game and you know, it, it, it is so true that this is just a game. Yeah. And we are fighting for virtual points. You know, we are not getting anything out of it. We are not going to, uh, gain fame or money or there's nothing at stake. And we are really playing this game with our friends and taking it too seriously. It's not just good for the ego, but it's terrible for the health as well. Yeah. I

couldn't agree more. I mean, that's a common theme on the show. And when I try, when I give talks on the road and that kind of thing, I constantly remind me, no one will remember who the Superfinal is. The final winner is two years from now. You know, it just doesn't matter. It's just, it's just a game. It's supposed to be for fun. And when you, you know, you do something stupid, then it's no fun.

Yeah. Yeah. So it was an awesome story, but I think it reminded me that sometimes, uh, a terrible story and an awesome story is, it's just a hairline difference. You know, it's just so, so small.

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. For sure.

So when somebody asked me, do you recommend Firefly? No, I do not recommend it.

Definitely not. No,

I do not.

Yeah. Um, so that, that's a good junction though. So now let's, let's jump to your, your history because as I understand it, you've been flying for quite a while, but you've only been flying comps, um, you know, pretty recently, like the last five years. So take us through that a little bit. And then I'd like to hear about, you know, how you've had some success.

Um, well, I, I started flying in 2004 and, uh, and, uh, I, I was really just concentrating on, on work at the first couple of years. So flying was mostly re-soring, tourmaling, just enjoying myself with my friends, going on tours, flying maybe 10 hours a year or so. So, um, when in 2013, uh, I had maybe 100 hours, um, in that nine years. So I was relatively, you know, unexperienced and not much cross country flying at all. So my mentor and best friend asked me why I'm not so into flying anymore. Yeah. I said, well, I don't know. I mean, I, I, I'm not sure I really understand what's so great about it.

And, and I just can't figure out this invisible mess of air. I'm not sure I understand. And I'm sure there is a science which is behind it, but I'm just not possibly, I'm not really cracking this code here. I'm not really so good in it. And he told me, well, the best way to, to learn is to come to a competition. And he used to compete when he was, uh, between, 14 and 18. He already peaked in his paragliding career. I know it's crazy, but this guy is that good. And he flew already like world and Europeans. He was Hungarian champion and he, he just lost motivation by the year of 18 and he stopped. And, uh, he told me that, listen, if you don't fly competitions, you're never going to really improve and learn.

And my approach, I remember my response was, you are crazy. I can't really fly. Well, I, how can I even go to a competition? And. And, you know, you should be good first and that's when you go. And he, he just signed us up. Both of us in 2013 to, uh, the Syria cup. I remember, uh, that he was the Hungarian national championship at the same time. And we went and I had a blast. I sucked so badly. I was so bad. I never, I realized they can thermal, I can't even pick how to take a good line and nothing. I thought I learned in that 100 hours. So flying, everything was basically wrong somehow. And I'm the kind of person, uh, who is really analytical.

And if I, if I find something, which I don't really understand, I started to take it apart. And I look at every single piece and I learned how I can improve every single little building block. And that's how I basically build businesses or that's how I, I work as a business developer and business coach. So it just really, you know, it, it irritated me that I, I, I sucked so badly. And then I decided, okay, because it's, it seemed like a great fun and a lot of good friends were there that I going to think about it. Uh, I mean, I going to sit down and really think about it and that's what I did. And I went to a couple of comps the next year, but I was still kind of busy with work, but I got very lucky afterwards that, uh, work was going in a great direction.

I had more free time. So in the last three, four years, let's say three years, I could. At 10, maybe six comps a year or something. I really don't have much time to fly free fly during the year, but all my holidays, I tried to organize around, uh, competitions. And, uh, I think I worked out a method which really worked well for me. And now I, I just have a great time. Every, every single time I go like now in Rodanillo, I learned so much and, uh, it's, it's, it's amazing how, how. how well I can benefit from paragliding, not just in a flying sense, but, you know, it's integrated. I'm changing as a person. I see the development in my business, how I'm assessing risk, how I look at opportunities, and also my personal life.

So it's, I think, the luckiest decision I've ever made.

So let's let that, that's, that's, I'd like to apply your analytical thinking to how you've approached training. You mentioned before we started recording that you kind of broke it down into three categories, physical, technical, and mental. Talk about that because it's only been five years, but what we often hear is that, you know, one competition, so one week of comp flying is really worth one year of free flying in terms of the training. And what you're going to learn and just having all those different pilots and mentors, but we've heard that. So how, how have you, how have you kind of applied, you know, how you live your life, how you, how you attack business to flying?

Well, I remember attending this course two years ago. It was about business development and how successful business people use sports psychology and, and the methods in, in sports psychology. What Olympic athletes. It's also a use and it's really fascinated me. And I decided to, to look up books about it. And then it just, one thing led to another. And I ended up talking to this amazing woman who wrote a book about mental trainings, mental strength. And she told me to, as you mentioned, break this sport down to physical, technical, and mental areas. And the first exercise she gave.

Me was sit down and write down a couple of points for each category, which I think it's very essential to be successful. And then ask my fellow pilots, my national team members or other pilots. I really look up to, to also write their own categories. And finally to rate me from one to 10. Well, that was super scary, but I went ahead and I made this leap of faith to ask my friends to give me points. And they gave me. Uh, very honest, uh, but I was so grateful for the, for the ratings because, uh, for these honest opinions, I could see the areas where I really needed to, um, improve more where I had to go deeper into some areas.

And, um, what I put together and they put together was quite similar. Although I had to, uh, I, I couldn't have, but notice that most pilots in the mental area didn't know what to put. Some of the great ones had some very good insights, but most of the pilots, even the very, uh, successful ones put a lot of technical points into the mental, uh, bracket. Uh, and, uh, and it just made me realize how under valued that area is. And I really didn't really understand at the beginning why, but, um, the more I learned and the more, uh, we started to discuss. Openly, you know, mental trainings, feelings, fears, all these areas.

I realized that, um, maybe because it's so attractive, this, uh, adventure sports are so attractive to, to men. Maybe there is some kind of taboo about talking about fears, controlling our emotions, what type of trainings we use. And, and some pilots are, are amazingly good in it. Some people are very instinctive about it. But there are a lot of people like, like, um, like me, maybe who, who need a structure. And once I see a structure, I can work with it and I can improve there. What

does that look like?

So basically what, how we went along, I first started to look into the physical, uh, category because, uh, I always looked at paragliding as a very technical sport. And I was not sure how much, um, you know, the physical aspect comes into the picture. Obviously in the Red Bull league subs. It's very easy to tap the physical elements, how necessary they are or at the hike and fly. But in my type of flying, I was not really, uh, valuing it much till that point. And then I realized that endurance and the ability to concentrate long is very strongly correlated, uh, with each other. So if I wanted to be able to fly, uh, better, uh, or even to improve more, I had to start to look into bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger.

And, uh, I, I attended so far one Europeans, one world's and one PWC. And when I noticed that after a couple of days, I was just unable to wake up, uh, happily or energetically in the, in the mornings because I was just so tired. Sometimes I flew six hours or five hours a day. And after like five hours, I was just so tired. After five days, I, I was fretting the, the upcoming six more tasks, you know, and I realized, okay, that's definitely one reason why I have to start working out more. And, uh, now I also see that, uh, if I check, uh, the performance of a race car driver, for example, uh, I'm very lucky because the gym I, I, I go to, uh, the owner is a race car driver and they have special training, concentrate, uh, concentrating.

Uh, type of trainings for race car drivers, formula one, go-karts and so on. And, uh, they call it fit for race. And what you do there is in one hour, they give you so many things to do at the same time. It feels like a circus, like there is a huge football, you are kneeling on it. You have a small ball in one hand, another bigger ball in another one. And while you are balancing on top of this football kneeling there, you are throwing these two balls to the wall. And because they are different sizes. They are going to react different way. So one is flying back to you faster. The other one is slower. And once you are able to do this and it's, I'm telling you, I I've done it and it really feels like a circus. Then your trainer starts to ask you mathematical questions or questions about your day, messing up your concentration.

So it's, it's very, uh, very complex and you can work on concentration in this type of trainings as well. So. Another aspect why it's so important to be fit is definitely safety for, for me, when I started to fly two liners two years ago, um, and I went to my very first SIB with a mantra six. And ever since I've done it also with the Zeno, I realized that, um, I can be very compromised. My safety can be compromised after a couple of days flying at the competition. Um, if, if it's super turbulent and I need to stall my glider out, which happened to me in real life. Before that, I had to stall my glider out in a, in a cascade. Then if I was not fit enough to, to do that after five hours of flying that day and let's say 30, 40 hours of flying in the previous days altogether, if I had pain in my shoulders or I was not, you know, up to the task, then it can be dangerous.

So, um, it's very needed. And also if, if, even if we don't get to that point of stalling the glider. Well, working the bees for, you know, for hours in a very turbulent air, it's not so easy sometimes. And another thing is that I used to fly, um, now I fly a big comp harness, so I don't find this that important anymore. But when I was flying a smaller, uh, harness, I always felt that I was sitting on a top of a feed ball using my whole upper body and hips, uh, controlling my glider. And sometimes I, I felt that after some days of flying every day for five hours that I had muscle pain everywhere, my, my stomach, my back, everywhere, my legs.

And it's not just the harness set up necessarily, but, you know, all that little balancing movements. So that's also another thing. And then, uh, when, when I was not so fit, um, my, my whole equipment now is about 30 kilos, sometimes 36. So depending on my own body weight, but, um, I was making stupid decision based on comfort that if I was low, then sometimes I took the easy, easy way out, not even consciously, just unconsciously concentrating on a village or a bus stop or something, you know? And ever since I don't care if I have to walk two hours with this equipment, uh, I'm just more confident, uh, letting myself be, um, you know, letting myself.

To drift more into areas where there is no, no landing option or no, or there is a landing option, but then no roads or no villages. So it makes me overall a better pilot also just by not having that pressure. I

think that's a really, uh, really critical point that you make. And I, I think we think of it more in areas like where I fly in the Rockies, cause there are no roads, you know, that we, we talk about that quite a bit, you know, as opposed to the Alps. Where you've got, you know, bus stations and train stations and it's, you know, there's just more infrastructure, so you don't have to think about it as much, but it's still, it's still even, like you said, even if it's unconscious, I think it really affects the decisions that you make. And if you look at like Kriegel's track logs in the X-Alps, he's often completely abandoning course line, um, because it's the move that makes sense. If it doesn't work, it's going to put him way deeper in a much. Much harder walk, uh, which I think the rest, you know, for the most part, the rest of us in the X-Alps, just as much as we say, we're going to ignore that we don't when it, when in the race happens, not because we're not fit.

We really are, but we're constantly thinking about, God, if this move doesn't work, then that's going to add two hours on the ground and no, I'm just going to keep going straight and hopefully I'll make it work. And then inevitably you end up on the ground because that's not the XC move to make. And I think that that, you know, that fitness level, it doesn't, like you said, it doesn't have to be the. X-Alps is just for good flying, you know, to start flying big lines, you just have to be totally comfortable with landing deep with whatever you have on your back and walking out. That has to be a non, a non-issue.

Yeah, definitely. So now I work out three, four times a week. Uh, normally one hour is, uh, with weights, uh, and half an hour, 40 minutes running. So I try to put it together and I really don't enjoy the gym. I'm not that kind of person who would. I normally just do it, but I broke my leg, uh, three years ago. And, uh, during that period of, of, uh, recovery, I put on like 10 kilos, most probably because I'm, I'm, uh, I wasn't really not moving and, and I tend to eat when I, I get, uh, stressed. So that was the moment which really changed my, my workout schedule. So before I was just, uh, casually going for like aerobics type of things, uh, you know, this common thing.

And at that point, uh, I really needed special help, um, because I just couldn't do anything with, with the broken leg. I needed physiotherapy, special type of training program and so on. So I was super lucky to, to meet, uh, a great trainer. And then she helped me to lose, uh, even more than what I put on during those periods. And then I just stick to it. And, uh, because of that, I noticed how it was influencing me. It was influencing my flying in a very favorable way. So now I feel way, way, way much more healthier and I have a better understanding, you know, about, as you said, decisions, you know, that I, I never have the pressure anymore and it feels great.

So I really recommend it to, to anybody to consider working out, not just, you know, for health, but it's great for flying too.

Yeah. I think, I think often underrated in our sport because we don't think of it as a very physical activity. But I think it really. It really massively impacts your flying, especially like you said, when you start taking longer and longer flights, you know, I think a lot of people, you know, when they bomb out in three or four hours, don't attribute it to that. They just think they made a mistake. Well, that's a mistake that you probably wouldn't have made if you have that endurance training and that focus. And there's no real way to get that except by training. Um, so let's, let's switch. So what about the, we've talked about the physical, what about the technical and the mental?

Uh, technical, I, I think it's. It's something what most pilots absolutely, um, uh, most probably they would put all these things on the, on the list as, as I did. It's very easy because this is what we all talk about. This is what we really concentrate on. So it's, uh, understanding the instruments, you know, the maximum capacity, uh, what the next enough boxes mean, uh, what type of data they gather and then understanding the capacity of a glider. So SIV trainings are, there should be mandatory. Although in many countries, they are not, uh, after a while, for example, in my country, we have to do it once to pass the pilot exam and never again, it's not mandatory. It's optional.

And if I really look deep into, um, you know, the type of flying I studied to do, then I think it's very reckless to, to assume that, um, I, I can learn everything about my glider just by flying it. Uh, because. Yeah. The polar curve, the positive aspect of it for minimum to maximum. Yeah. Normally if I really push a lot, I can understand it, but you know, stalling it and the negative aspects, I mean, going flying backwards and stuff, it's, it's not gonna happen unless I, I go over a lake and really train. So I think that, uh, now I'm flying a Zeno and, uh, I'm considering moving up in, in the future, but I think that I will have to.

Really start doing some acro, although if I'm not an acro pilot and it never interested me, I mean, I, I, I look up to pilots who do it, but I'm not the type of very adventurous person to be attracted to this aspect of flying, but I feel that this is getting mandatory. I cannot ignore it anymore just for safety.

I think, I think like climate change, you know, the whole magic three 50 number. That's the, that's the, the number I hear from the acro guys and gals all the time is. You, you've got to do 300 stalls before you consider that you, you know how to do stalls and that's a lot of stalls, you know, that's way more than one, one SIV, you know, where you're going to maybe get three or four on the last day. You know, that's really actively working on it where it becomes something that's as easy as a, as your most basic maneuver that you just don't even think about. It doesn't raise your blood pressure. It's a, um, I recently gave a little talk down in Mexico and, you know, of the whole audience, no one, uh, had done 300. And so, I mean, I think it's, you know, and pretty much everybody in the room, we're flying comp gliders, you know, so I, I think it's a real hole in our sport, regardless of the country, regardless of the certification.

Yeah, last year I was very lucky to join the BPRA, the British Paragliding Racing Academy in Annecy and we had a great trainer, uh, Fabian Benko from, uh, Flyo and he told us that, um, that just doing it once a year, it's, it's better than nothing. But it's very close to nothing. So he recommends us to, to get a, uh, maybe a older B glider or something and, and start pushing our boundaries and whatever we already know to do, we, we can thermal up high and start doing some stalls and even over the ground, start practicing because, um, it should be something that whenever they wake us up in the middle of the night, we can do it. You know, it's, it's like changing gears.

It should be that natural. Yeah. And that's what. All the, the French team is doing and many of the other great teams are doing, um, practicing all year round. So I think this is the next step for me in my, my personal development for sure.

Yeah. We're, we're having Fabian on the show next week. I can't wait to talk to him. I've been trying for years. I, I, we gave a, a film, I did a film, I think 500 miles to nowhere at his shop in, in Annecy a few years back. So I've been friends with him for a while, but that's going to be terrific. He's got some great thoughts on not just SIV, but Volbis. And everything. So he's a great personality. I'm excited to talk to him. Um, Oh, absolutely. I

remember this last year that I had, um, we were practicing rapid exits from a three 60, which is the, the maneuver you do before start stalling the glider. So I remember doing it in one direction. It was okay. And he told me, okay, now switch to the other direction, do a three 60 to the left and then a rapid exit. And he, he teaches people. Not to catch the dive too fast, because if you do, it's, it's, it's not the point. The point is you let the glider shoot forward so aggressively that it's nearly too much for you. And I was practicing that and I had, and messed it up so badly that I had a giant collapse, a twist and then it looked very bad, but then I could somehow manage it, open it. And I heard him on the radio and it's, it's on video.

So whenever I think about him, then I hear this sound like, let's do it again.

Yeah, he's always smiling. It's great. I love his, his energy. Um, okay. So the, the, the mental side, maybe, you know, we don't have time to go through all the little boxes that you had to tick when you, you know, you went through, you made that list and then you had your friends make that list. I mean, I just think that'd be something that would be terrific that we all had to do, you know, and how scary that must've been to go to all your mentors and go, you know, what am I good at and what do I suck at? But what, what were some of the kind of. Real big takeaways there.

Oh, well, definitely. I, I, I realized that, um, I didn't have enough self-confidence. That was one of the issues. Many of them told me that I, I needed to work on because whenever I went to a takeoff, for example, my first European, I was there at a takeoff with my glider in the heat in Macedonia. And I was thinking, oh, wow, this psycho is coming. So, so yeah, she, she can take off in front of me. And then, oh, wow, this is. Okay. He's going in front of me. And I was just letting everybody pass because I was thinking what happens if I follow my face in front of this crowd? You know, what happens if, if my ballast is too heavy and I just roll down to the bottom of the takeoff and, you know, I don't know.

I had all these, uh, all these thoughts in my head and I was ready. I wanted to take off, but then I was just stalling and waiting and I was not confident enough. And then when in the air, uh, before the pilot, it is just so intense and can be very aggressive that people touch your glider. And whenever I'm, I'm, I'm experiencing it a lot nowadays, but now I learned to react it in a different way. But I had this problem that I was in a thermal and people were coming in and they were cutting me off. I noticed that they were not flying to the end of my pod, but, you know, behind me, but they were aiming to my feet. They were coming to cut me out. And if I, if I turn my face and I showed them, I'm seeing you, I'm going to slow down so you can cut in front of me.

They did. And I was so sure that if I don't do it, they're going to fly into me and we're going to crash. And then I just, after some training and after realizing what's happening, I learned to deal with this. And what I do now, I signal them that I see you, but I'm going to ignore you. So I keep, I keep on my, my. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm not turning away completely and, and not watching them. You know, I just give them a sign. I really clearly turn my head there. Sometimes I even signal with my hand that I'm going straight. So I'm not going to do anything. You know, you can make your decision flying to me or you fly behind me, but I'm not doing anything else. And it changes how, if you are self confident, it changes how people see you in the air, how they react to you.

And, and. There is, I'm not saying it's bullying, but it's some, if, if somebody is very sensitive to these kinds of things and very polite or unconfident, then it can happen that people cut somebody out of their moles. So

I think, I mean, I think lack of confidence is, is like the major difference in, in the folks who do really well in flying and not, I mean, if you're not majorly confident, you don't have that whole kind of bill Belcourt concept of bringing it when things get rough and, and. Unstable and sketchy and, and, and you go land, you know, versus the pilots that just are like, yeah, man, I got this and let's keep going. So, you know, how do you, how do you train that though? How did you, how did you kind of, okay. Everybody says I lack self-confidence. You know, I'm imagining you didn't just start being more aggressive in a thermal. You probably had to do some, you know, meditation or what, what did you do to, what did you do to start kind of changing that aspect of your inner self?

Well, first I, I read a couple of books about sports psychology because this is really universal for all sports. There are a lot of advices to learn. And because we don't have the type of training methods, like in Hungary, the Olympic swimming team or the water polo team, they all have their sports psychologist. We're in polo gliding. We are kind of self-teaching ourselves. So I, I, I turned towards all this material, which is already out there and accessible. We, we're just not, I would, I was personally not using it before. And, and I realized that polo gliding is not an 80 % technical sport, but it's an 80 % mental sport. I mean, for me personally, I'm talking about my personal experience and whatever I could improve in the technical aspects, like learning, you know, to, to take off better with the heavy ballast, learning methodology, instruments, capacity of the glider, throwing the reserve parachute.

GeForce trainer, all these things I did to technically improve myself and physically the trainings I've done, it was only improving that 20%. So even if I was already quite okay, it just made a very small difference. It did a difference, but it didn't make a huge difference. But once I started to really do the technical trainings, I learned about modeling, visualization, using a mantra, learning to deal with fears, how to set the goals right. Um, dealing with failure, uh, working on my, uh, self-confidence, meditation, focusing, choosing a mentor and self analyzes all these things. I started to learn and practice more. I just realized that my flying got way better.

Like the leaps, uh, when I already, I only had 600 hours when I was about 200 and the world ranking or something. So, uh, I mean, it's, it's not something I really, uh, check, but two years ago I had to do, um, they asked me to do a speech for, for the Hungarian flying community about competitions because I was the newest member of the paragliding national team in Hungary. And my, my views were quite fresh and, and it was, you know, people were interested as there was never a woman in our team. So they thought that it's a fresh perspective. And I sat down and I realized, I really did the, uh, the math and I did a lot of statistics, um, what I learned and how I could translate this down to numbers, which most people understand very easily.

So I checked my world ranking and I checked the trainings I've done and I, I don't know if 600 hours is much or not much, but for me, as I'm a completely average, I mean, I'm not a very athletic person. I'm not, um, I don't know, uh, you know, anything special or an acro pilot or anything. My point was at this lecture that regardless of your age, your sex, your weight, anything, everybody can do this. Everyone. So paragliding is for everyone. I think it's a sport where we've got a huge diversity. And, uh, if you start using the methods I personally learned and they work for me, maybe there's something for you as well to take away and, and, and do. So, um, that's, that's what I noticed that psychology is.

It's huge in this sport and how one thing I started with was, uh, reading about the flow theory, uh, from cheeks and me high, me high with a Hungarian psychologist. And I think many people know this theory, but, uh, they not necessarily translate it down to, to paragliding. Um, so what I did was, uh, was looking at this, um, this chart and for people who don't know this or not familiar with. Uh, there are two X's is the Y is challenges and the X is skills. And when somebody learns for a gliding or any adventure sport, then normally the skill level is very low, but the challenge is high.

So the anxiety level is also very high and, and the fear is there. But once we start improving and our skill level is improving as well, um, we can set. Higher and higher challenges. And once we reach a right amount of skills and challenges, uh, we enter a flow channel, what cheeks and me high calls flow that mental state when time just doesn't exist. Time is, is not a factor anymore. We can work, we can play with our kids. We can, uh, uh, do adventure sports. Uh, we can, uh, paint paintings, compose music. It doesn't matter. What? What we do. So the important point is that we focus so high that even if five hour passes, we just don't realize that time is gone because we are so intensely in that moment of doing something, of creating something, of solving a problem.

And if we don't set the challenge high enough, but our skill level is high already, then we experience time. We experience, uh, because of boredom. We experience every minute is just so slow. Um, it's dragging its feet. It's, it's never going to end. But on the other end, if we set, uh, the challenges too high, which is not in proportion to our skills, then we experienced that time is running so fast that we can't even put our finger where it went. We can't recall what happened. For example, great example is an accident. I'm sure many people already had that moment in their life. Maybe.

It was

a car crash. Maybe it was paragliding accident or they just slipped and fell on the, on the floor. But when somebody asks, so tell me from second to second, what happened there? If you are in the high challenge, but low skill level, then it's, it's very hard to recall. So I remember in, in one of my, my paragliding accidents, I fall down 500 meters before I could manage the situation. And I was, uh, falling for, for, for half a minute already in a complete shock. I had no idea what's happening. I don't even remember how I got that kind of cascade. I, I, I, people saw it. So they could tell me now I can also tell you, I just had a giant, uh, um, half side collapse and I over control the open side.

I stole the open side. I got to spin and I, I just didn't recognize the configurations for some, for some reason. And then. And then when I, I tried to manage that, it just became worse and worse. I reacted slow to this and that, and I ended up with a bad cascade and I wanted to throw my reserve. And that's when I realized, uh, that, okay, this is the moment where I throw it and I have to look down where I'm going to end up. And I look down and I see a giant power line under me. So my whole mind cleared in that second, I lost that panicky feeling because I realized I'm going to die here. Most probably if I keep this. So I, I remember every single second from that decision that I need to control this moment, or I really just gonna stop existing.

And I look down at my instrument. I checked the wind speed, the wind direction. I check where if I'm in this height, if I saw the reserve, are I going to end up with my reserve? I look around and there is another power line there. So my chances of throwing a parachute and ending up alive, not, you know, being electrocuted was very low. So I decided to stall my glider and I never stole it in a real life situation until then. And I just started to fly the M six. I had maybe 10 hours on it or, or 15. So I was a newbie in the, in the D liner category and I just stole it and managed to, to open it back up 150 meters above the ground. And, uh, just over the power line, I flew away.

And I can tell you every second after. As I said, after I realized that this is going to be it. So if, if, if somebody is, is not in the moment in the right skill set or mindset with the right amount of skills, then, uh, it can be very dangerous and even it can lead to, to death. So once I figured out this theory and what it's really meant, I realized that my goal for the future, and not just in one single day to stay in the flow, but. Try to. Stay in the flow in my life to, to balance, you know, my, my skills and challenges in the right way. And once I also realized that anxiety is not something I can get rid of, it's always, always going to be there.

I accepted it. And I, now I welcome it because I know that, uh, if I'm, if I'm advancing, if I'm moving out of the flow, because I'm learning something, then it's going to be normal that I hit that anxiety will hit me and fear. Will. Hit me as well. And for that, I just need to learn some exercises, how to, how to deal with it, but it's not something I should be afraid of because it's, it's a good thing to, to have. It's like an immune system, or if it's like sensitivity, sensitivity in the skin, just imagine how terrible it would be if I could just switch off sensitivity in my skin in a cold weather and my fingers could freeze because I would never realize what's happening and I would never put on a glove. Or. In a, in a, for example, working in the kitchen, I could just put my hand on the stove and burn myself crazy.

Uh, so all these kinds of things can happen without fear as well. And, uh, uh, an example, what I can name here is Jeff Corliss, top wing suit pilot, who was talking about his fatal crash, uh, not so long ago.

Near, near,

near, near fatal crash. He survived. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. His, his. His, his amazing. He's on the top of his game. He's, uh, he's one of the absolute best wing suit pilots in the world. And he said himself, and I quote him now because it really resonated with me when I watched this video of his about that near fatal crash. He said, I made a big mistake. I lost fear. Fear is super important because without fear, you will die.

Yeah. Let's, let's talk about fear some more. As soon as you talked about Jeb, I used to do a lot of whitewater kayaking. So very, very extreme, steep, creaky type stuff and big waterfalls and that kind of thing. And what my partner for a long time was a guy named tail Berman who went on to be a big red bull kayaker. And he literally, we, they, we did a kind of a study on the two of us at one point. He literally did not experience fear. So for him, it was all, you know, he wasn't doing it for the adrenaline rush and for the excitement of that. For him, it was all very technical. It was about nailing really difficult moves. And he would visualize. And he was incredibly gifted as an athlete. But I haven't talked to him about this. I don't know this for sure, but I think he quit kayaking also because it became, you can imagine it wouldn't be very fun either without fear.

I mean, it adds, it adds that zest. It adds what we need to, to be excited about something. But it also, as you so deftly point out, it's also what keeps us alive. You know, without it, we, we would make very stupid decisions.

Yeah. I think that most people cannot mentally switch fear off or you cannot train your brain to deal with it in that way that even in the dangerous situations, it's not going to go away. I mean, that's what sports psychology says that it's just your, as your skill set improves and the higher challenges you give yourself, if you set the amount right, then you're going to experience the flow. But if you set the bar too high or something. Uh, you know, and unexpected comes in, then fear or not, maybe some, some very expert, uh, sportsmen, they don't call it fear. They call it anxiety. Like now I noticed many times that if my, my body is reacting in a certain way, my, my breathing speeds up, I sit up in a harness a little bit.

So my, my, my shoulders are getting closer to my, my, uh, uh, my risers. Then there is something going on. I, I noticed that I'm getting anxious, so it's not necessarily freezing fear, but, um, um, and it can happen for many reasons. It can happen because the air is very bumpy or because I just got a collapse or something, but it can also happen, uh, because I'm very low, for example, and I'm close to bombing out and that's not the best type of fear. I'm not afraid of dying at that moment, but I'm very afraid I got a bomb out and that also affects how I move. So I think it's a little bit of a thing for me to be afraid of because I can't really make a decision. Hmm. So definitely not in

the flow. If you're in that state of mind, are you, it's, you know, when you're suddenly really tense, that's about the worst you can possibly fly.

Yeah. So I, I do many mental exercising and I listen to, to music to, to conquer these situations and they really helped me to, uh, to, uh, equalize my feelings and, and switch off these, uh, these emotions, which can really bother me in certain, certain situations. And what I noticed that in one simple flight during a day at a competition, I'm okay, let's say 60, 70 % of the time and I'm anxious maybe in the rest of the time, not all the way, but let's say if it's 70 % okay and 20 % anxious, sometimes the 10 % is actual fear or spikes in my pulse.

It can happen. And I'm actually aiming to keep this ratio up because I think this is how I keep improving. I'm pushing myself to learn new things. Otherwise, I'm just flying in my comfort zone and not learning much. And there's nothing wrong for me to be scared sometimes and I'm very often am. I'm not ashamed to admit that sometimes I'm shit scared. But I learned to deal with it. I manage it and I overcome it. And as a person, this mental trainings really changed me. And I noticed that in business, I'm not struggling so much with the what ifs and what's happening if I make this decision.

Am I going to lose much money or, you know, these kind of fears I have. I'm learning to manage this way better ever since I'm training in sports. So it has a great effect. Also, my personal life. Sometimes I have anxious nights or I can't sleep for a week because I'm dealing with a big question. And now I take it as a good sign because normally when I'm experiencing so much difficulty in life, I know that I will start working on it very hard to seek out the solution and work on it. And sooner or later, it will turn out. To the beginning of something great and something new. So if I have a difficult period, I keep telling myself, you've been this before, you know what it means.

So just take charge, take control. And instead of feeling this anxiety and uncertainty, just start doing things one by one. Just concentrate on the next little mini goal. Only tomorrow what you're going to do. And I'm so, so grateful for progress. It's so exciting because it's really made my life so much more exciting and it keeps teaching me new things. So I'm excited, you know, for the next couple of years, what they're going to bring.

Listeners, if you're as intrigued by all of this as I am, I can tell you that Adele has graciously provided a very elaborate email with tons of links and drawings to the Epsilon graph that she talked about and some of the books. And so all of that will be in the show notes. So when you get done with this podcast, listen to it again. And then go back into the show notes. And if you want to check some more of these resources out, I can tell you some of the things she's already talked about or some of the things we've been studying for the ex-Alps. And it does make a ton of difference. Switching gears here a little bit. Well, actually, I want to come back briefly to the technical side. When you and I talked before, before we were recording, you had a kind of an interesting experience with a very good friend of ours, Trey Hackney, down in Columbia with gear.

And I think he would admit that he's a bit of a gearhead. I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum. I was dealing with a harness down in Menarca, and I had to ask him all kinds of probably very infantile questions because I just don't pay attention to that stuff very much. Just briefly touch on that technical side. You already have, but we didn't mention gliders and tuning. Because where I want to go with this is females in the sport.

One real, very real disadvantage is if you're not a big person, you're light. You have to fly a smaller wing. They just flat out don't go as well. But talk about Trey, and then we'll get to that.

Yeah, okay. So let's start with how this whole thing happened. I met Trey two years ago, and he was the superior pilot, no question. Absolutely flying way much better than me, smashing it at that time. But then he had an accident after that, and the recovery was not easy at all. He did a great job. He did a great job because now watching him carrying his equipment and flying this amazing two-liner, it's great to see him back. And at the beginning, because he just got the Zeno recently, at the beginning he was struggling a bit with the newness of this glider. Although these type of gliders are not new to him, and he had experience with them, just this specific one was not so familiar.

And I flew the Zeno regularly. So I like geeking out on equipment, and he absolutely adores going into the small technical details and tuning it to the maximum effect. We had a lot of great conversations about it, about harnesses and what to do with the Zeno. Well, the first day, he just approached me saying, Adele, I have to admit there's something with my glider because you just passed me by on that long glide. And I was just staying behind, and I don't understand what's happening. What do I do wrong, or can you look at my stuff? So we went into the details, and these two-liners are super, super sensitive.

And as I said, I don't normally fly much free flight, but I go to comps. I hear other pilots talking a lot about it, and they told me so much information. And one of the most valuable information I got away with is even the smallest asymmetry between the lines can really cause a big difference in performance. So I take my glider in every 40, 50 hours for checkups and tunings. And the guy in Hungary, Gabor Ture, who is the ozone dealer, he has a very good approach. He's not just checking the lines, but he's really, really looking at the whole picture, checking the angle of attack. And if he finds some irregularity or anything which he doesn't really comprehend, and it's not according to the book, then he contacts ozone directly, and he sends the measurement data, and they discuss what is the best setting, which is the closest to the factory setting for this glider, and how they can really take the maximum effect of this equipment.

And I took my glider to him last year, complaining that on full bar, I have to touch. My glider, and I have to always control the right side a little bit, because my glider is just turning to one direction always. So I need to always break the right side a bit. And I don't know what's happening, but sometimes I get a little ear collapse on the right side. And I would be very grateful if he could check my stuff. And when I went back to him a week later, he told me that there was one centimeter difference between my left and right side. But I shouldn't be overly concerned, because it's impossible to feel that. That one centimeter. I think he just forgot that I took my glider to him with a complaint. So it is possible to feel even a slight little difference.

And one centimeter is not small. I mean, for me, it's not. And how I like to fly this glider, but it's very personal. It's my preference, is that when I'm on a glide, and I'm pushing the full bar, I'm really aiming to lean back as much as possible and move my toes up a little bit, so my harness is not leaning down, and I don't ruin the aerodynamic of this harness. And then I'm not resting my hand on the wooden handles on the bees. I mean, my hand is there, and I'm touching constantly the risers.

But I'd rather push a little bit than pull. And I think since I stopped resting my hand on long glides, because it's very comfortable, and I used to just keep my hands down, not controlling necessarily, but resting the own body weight of my hands. And that slowed down my glider maybe one or two kilometers per hour, depending on conditions. But it's very small, but it is a difference. So I don't touch it. But I keep my hands, I mean, I don't pull it, but I touch it. I keep my hands there. I even push it a little bit. And whenever anything is coming, I'm ready to catch it. I'm ready to act.

And the more aggression I feel from there, the more aggression I give back. So I'm really, really doing this type of balance with the glider. But when it doesn't require any aggression or anything from my end, that I'm not hanging on it with, you know, with my hands. And I think that in this way, I can feel everything. Even if there is a very small asymmetry, I can feel it. And if the glider is asymmetrically out of trim, that's not a big issue. I mean, it's not good. Obviously, it's not a good thing. But it's not so bad if it's asymmetric. And if somebody does a lot of spiral dives at the end of the task, then it can also make the glider look like, like a propeller, like a helicopter, you know?

So it's not very good. So I was checking Trey's stuff. First, I checked if he released the Bs, because with the Zeno, after 40, 50 hours, angle of attack changes and the factory recommends to release the B lines. And I asked him if his stabilos were not shrinking up a little bit, because that also can happen that the tips of the glider starts to pull down a little bit. And that also changes the overall performance. So much can be changed with a good expert. But I mean, you can loop some lines, but there's not much to change if one is shrank. So you have to change the stabilos if they are just too short. And these things I checked with him.

And we started with the glider because I was first, my first thought and feeling was that it must be the trim. But then it turned out that Trey moved. Up a glider size I was not aware of. He started to fly XL size. And once he told me, I was asking, OK, so what size, what is your takeoff weight? And he said the amazing thing about the Zeno, everybody, everybody told him flight on the top, but he flies an L size, which the top is 125 kilograms. But in the US where he flies, he experimented with it. And he realized that it's a great glider throughout the whole, the whole weight range. And he prefers when it's lighter so he can really feel the air, get the nuances.

Even when he's low, close to bomb, he can really sniff out the air better and find the thermals, which in his type of flying, because he normally flies by himself and he takes amazing lines and he flies so well. It's a great attribute. But in comp flying, having a two light glider is not, not favorable. I personally very prefer to, to fly at the very top. And I, I, I like it if my takeoff weight is, is in the middle and I can play with the water. I can ballast up if I want, but I can also dump it. It's very, very rare. I decide to dump, dump the water because who knows if I run into some headwind and, and, and something at the end of the task, you know?

So I prefer, I prefer to fly at the very top. I prefer to keep it even in different situations, but I have the option to get rid of it. Now, Trey, he has a great option to get rid of tons of water because he now is flying his glider and 113 kilograms. So 12 kilos under the weight maximum. So I gave him my ballast bag and told him, fit it up with water and just try flying with it. And I think it was day three or day four. Um, I know glide, uh, four or five pilots. We were just, uh, uh, pushing it towards goal. And I see Trey and his smiling face over passing me, you know, and he flies into the goal. You should have kept your secret till the very

end of the comp and then told him.

No, no, no, no. Why? I mean, it's, um, no,

I'm kidding. That's great.

It's not about, it's not really about, you know, um, competition in that fierce environment. I know.

Absolutely. You know, it's all. We're all there to support each other.

When we were, when we were traveling down to Robo, there were some, some problems with sanctioning the event. Everything was figured out at the end. So it was all happy feelings and stuff at the end. But at the beginning, there was some uncertainty and I was talking to many top pilots in the, in the, in the town, you know, are you coming? Are you coming? And they were, ah, we are not sure if you could do it because there's probably not going to be points. And I was telling them, you have to, you have to do it. You have to come, you know, it's going to be fun. That's why we are here. This is our holiday and who cares? You know, just let's have fun, enjoy ourselves. And somebody said something, which I, I don't know who it was, but I really stick to me. And it's so true. A pilot told me, yeah, Adele, I see your point now.

It's not so fun playing in your little sandbox all by yourself, is it? And it's so true. You know, it's, it's, it doesn't matter where I end up at the competition. It's more important that I fly. I fly with people I can learn from and I can have great fun with because it's boring otherwise. I mean, we are doing it all to have fun. That's the ultimate goal to have fun and to learn. So I, I, I don't mind because, uh, I, I, I ended up, uh, just a couple of points in front of Trey, but I'm pretty sure that if he could fly more than he's, he's the better pilot. So, you know, we, we don't care. We're at this ranking because deep down, we all know who, who flies how well, and we had a great flight after the comp, uh, three, three of us, Crystal, Trey, and myself.

And we flew for six hours, uh, down in the Valley and, and, and back to Zarzal. And it was amazing. And, you know, it was never about who pushes out front and how much do you lead? It was working in a team. And in this competition, this last one, I, I felt several. Times that, uh, we were just a bunch of friends on an excursion, exploring this beautiful Valley and, and flying. And when it was difficult, we were low in the Valley and it was shading out. We all gathered together and we were helping each other, finding the core coming up. And yes, it's a competition, but, uh, in another hand, you know, it's, it's again, it's a great game. So I was very, very happy that, uh, he could figure, figure out.

Uh, because this was just a very small thing, the, the wing loading aspect, so he could figure it out. And then we moved on to geek on, uh, the OD and instrument set up. And the next, the next day we were just, yeah, we were just talking nav boxes for two more days. So that was,

I love it. I love it. Well, I'm, I'm sure that, that, that gave him a big smile for the rest of the week. I'm sure he appreciates that very much. Adele, tell me, tell me a little bit about team spirit because there's, I've had some interesting talks lately. I was just down in Australia, uh, hanging out with Dave Snowden and he's been real instrumental him and Brian Webb about kind of putting together all the Australian squad and the Australian team. They put a, put together a great team for this year, year's worlds. Um, but you know, it's something that a lot of the countries that don't have the financial backing, uh, you know, that France and Switzerland and Germany do. And also the, just the numbers of pilots really struggle with, we all, you know, like in the U S we kind of have to do it on our own and we don't have a coach. We don't have a really any kind of even. Uh, club that, you know, that, that really gets behind those kinds of efforts.

It's a very independent thing here. Um, so talk about team spirit. Cause I know that's something you've invested some time in.

Um, yes, because Hungary is very similar, uh, in, in aspects. Um, as, as you said, in the U S we don't have much money for, for the sport and everybody's is, uh, learning individually and we have a national team, but. We can't really. Talk. About the real team spirit or, or coaching. And although we have amazing pilots here, somehow sharing the knowledge and coaching each other is not our strong, uh, uh, point. So, uh, I, I was at the SIV, a conference in the beginning of, of, uh, February in, in Porto because, uh, I'm, I'm, uh, the sport diplomat of Hungary there. So there is a yearly plenary meeting and, uh, we travel there once a year and, and, and talk about, um, um, rules of paragliding and how to improve the sport and such things.

And, uh, DDA Maturin, I hope I pronounce his, his surname, right? Uh, so DDA is, uh, is there as a, uh, representative of France with another pilot. And he's also the, the team coach of France since 2008. And I was very lucky to travel with him one hour to the airport this last time. So we had a lengthy discussion about the success of, of France. And I asked him this question, you know, and, uh, I was asking him, how does he, how does he look at, at, um, the advancements of, of pilots? What is the success of France? And he, because I was thinking, yeah, money, you know, you've got so many pilots there over 10,000, maybe even more.

And, and obviously if there is so much money and they have even a high school and in university, you can choose paragliding as, as, uh, your faculty. So that is, is a great base. And, uh, I read in some years back, one of the interviews he gave, and he said that, uh, we have a big pyramid of pilots in France, but it's one thing to have a lot of pilots at a good level. And it's another to develop pilots to the world class level. So I asked him, how did you do it? What's your secret? And he said, building a team. And, uh, I didn't really understand at the beginning what he was saying. What he was talking about, but then he went on and, and he said, once you break down the ego of pilots that, uh, they are afraid to share the knowledge because they are afraid that I'm the best one now.

But if I share my, my secrets, then you're going to overtake me. You're going to learn more. You're going to do it better than I do. And, uh, and the beginning pilots are, are not so happy to work together, but once they realize that there is a, in the natural curve of progression, there is a plateau, which everybody hits once sooner or later, and you just, uh, struggle, you can struggle to, to move from that level. So you reached a very good pilot level, but the world class level, it rests in that point. If you get another couple of good pilots around you, a great coach, and you start sharing the information, you start learning from each other, learn from each other's mistakes or successes and, uh, work together.

Not just because you are so altruistic or because you love society and you want to help, but because that's the key for your individual improvement. And I was thinking about it. And then I said, yeah, yeah. But don't tell me that, uh, you know, the fact that you are there, um, full time and you are employed there full time, you know, it doesn't help. So money is required. And then he just said, okay, uh, explain to me the Slovenian team. Now he was thinking. Oh, wow. Okay. So Slovenia, Hungary has 10,000 people in inhabitants. Slovenia has 2 million. Oh, sorry. Hungary has 10 million. Slovenia is way much smaller. They have 2 million and they have world class pilots were absolutely amazing and smashing it at every competition.

And they don't have a huge backing either. But what they figured out is being friendly, uh, being a group of friends, sharing the information, having a good time. That's the key to success. And we could do that as well. I mean, technically in any country you can do that and you don't need money for it. You just need one or two motivated pilots who will take their egos and put it in the backseat and say, okay, let's sit down and let's talk. Or we just think our, we think our calendars, you know, we, we go together and, and we think together because, um, I w why? Why? I'm so active recently in the, in the backstage and, and, and in the, uh, you know, organization levels in paragliding is not, um, because, uh, I'm such a busy body and I have so much time because, uh, I'm very busy with, uh, with my work.

But I realized when I started comp flying that there are so many obstacles and a lot of them are pointless. And the good thing about. Uh, Hungary, that it's so small that, uh, the bureaucrats we have, um, they don't really care, you know, if they, if you take some free work off their shoulders. So by rewriting the Hungarian sport codex, uh, creating, uh, new rules for record flying, harmonizing our, our structure to the FII rules, uh, creating a female national team, it just created so much more opportunities. And even yesterday. I had this, um, pleasant experience going to, um,

um, there was an award ceremony, uh, where we award record flyers and, and, uh, you know, we give the, uh, sports woman or sport men of the year award. And there were several members of, of my national team there. And, and I, I respect them a lot. I really look up to them as they are amazing pilots. But when I was asking them, would you like to. To participate more in, in, in this concept, you know, um, working on the, on the regulations more to smooth it out. Uh, they were saying, no, it's just too much work and, and nobody's thanking us for it. So why should we do it? And, uh, uh, it, it hurt my feelings in a way, but I realized that, um, it's not that for me, the right approach is not to get hurt and just move back to the backseat and say, okay.

I'm not going to do it anymore. If nobody's caring, I'm not going to do it. No, I think the right approach should be to be more insistent a little bit and, and just, just show to a bigger group of people that, um, you know, by contributing just a little bit, you don't need to put your whole life up to that. But if, if, if you want to have fun and we are all paying our own money, I mean, in, in, in my country, nobody sponsors us. I'm not sponsored. I pay from my hard earned money to enjoy myself. And this is my hard day. This is my hobby. I'm not a full time pilot. So for me, it's really matters how I spend my free time. I want to have great fun because that's the free time I have and the rest I'm spending my time on, on other things. So for me, the quality of my free time really matters.

And I think the good approach is what Didi pointed out that we should change. We should shift perception. Uh, I should not give up. And, and push on to show more people, especially the newcomers in, in our, uh, national team that working together is essential. Uh, it's the key for all of us to advance more. And, uh, it's, it's a struggle, but we can do it. And the good example is already there. Look at Slovenia and they are doing it in a great way. So I'm really hoping that sooner or later we will also get there.

A lot of it's just pressing the start button. Isn't it? It's just, you know, it's, it's getting people moving in the right direction and then it all kind of coalesces and goes the right way. It's like a snowball.

Yes, but it's not easy because, uh, uh, because being a first, it doesn't matter what area in life it is. It's sometimes very challenging and emotionally challenging, not just technically, you know? And, um, I think it's, it's another challenge in my personal life. How am I going to, how am I going to take this in the future if I can, I can really rise above because, uh, I'm experiencing a lot of, and I don't understand why many negative emotions about it, uh, from, from people. When I, as I said, there is absolutely no stake here. Nobody's paying anybody to volunteering, to doing some work, but, um, I'm very, very positive that by doing a good example.

More and more people will get on board and it will help me also. Um, if I'm saying from an ego, egoistic viewpoint, it will also help me not just others, but we have to all move together into the same direction. So I'm working towards it and I already see, uh, a lot of effort, um, starting to, to, uh, have a result. So I'm very excited. I think in a couple of years we should, if, if, uh,

if, uh, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, uh,

if we talk about it later, then I hope that I will be able to say that we, we are, yeah, we'll

have a nice, we'll have a nice follow-up women in sport. So we've had some, some women on the show in the last kind of year, and there's been some really interesting perspectives on this. Um, I'd love to get yours because you, you talked to that. That was one of the things you kind of would love to talk about. Um, there's so few of you in this sport and, uh, the, the big question of course is, was why? Do you have a unique perspective on this?

Um, yeah, I think that, uh, it's very easy to grasp that, uh, adventure sports don't attract that much women. Uh, everybody knows this statistics that in pro gliding, we have about 10 % women, uh, actually a little bit less. I think it's 8%, but it's easier to do the math with, with 10%. So let's use that number. And, um, there are many reasons why we are not. Um, you know, that many in competition, I get this question all the time. So I gave it some, some thoughts, um, in the last couple of years. And I think that if, if we go back to, uh, the three characteristics, what we talked about, what makes a very successful pilot, then we, if we talk about, uh, the technical aspect, I don't think that there is any disadvantage being a woman because everybody can learn to use the instruments and capacity of the glider takeoff methodology.

Um, you know, all these things. So I think that here, it's not a gender issue. It's more like, you know, personal who, who, how high your IQ is, uh, how much, uh, you analyze things, how much thought you put into it, how much, how many hours you learned your methodology and, um, you know, all these things. So the technical thing, it's, it's not gender related. I mean, we, I don't see any issues there. And in the, in the mental aspect, uh, when we talk about these methods, uh, dealing with fear, modeling, visualization, learning mantras, uh, goal setting, dealing with failure, self confidence, meditation, learning to focus.

I don't think that women have fear, any issue either. It's again, it's not a gender thing. It's more like, um, you know, how your brain works. And it's very personal. One person can really, uh, learn a lot, uh, in these trainings. Another one who is not so adventurous, maybe less.

So I think we can also prove that theory or hypothesis, I guess, because we, you know, we look at Lori Genovese who just got sixth in the Superfinal and Seiko and Claudia and Nicole. And, you know, there's been, you know, if you, if, like you said, if it's less than 10 % are even participating. Um, and you've got those, those women and more doing really well, you know, winning, winning PWC tasks, uh, doing, you know, sixth overall in the Superfinal. I mean, that is unbelievable. Um, and so I, you know, I think, I think, yeah, okay. Continue. Cause that, that's kind of true then I think.

Yeah. I, I think, uh, what everybody knows that we struggle with is physical size that, uh, 80 % of female pilots, according to statistics. Yeah. Fly a glider, which has a takeoff weight between 65 to 95. So my takeoff weight, uh, is very unique. I belong to the 4 % of women who can fly an M size glider. So, uh, it's, it's true that there is some disadvantage there, but it's again, it's the disadvantage of small pilots, you know, which is more, uh, more female belong to this category, but you know, also small. Small male pilots have the exact same challenge that if you fly an excess Enzo or boom or whatever, CCC glider, that's going to be more aggressive and it's going to have a worst performance.

It doesn't matter what brand it is. It's just the facts. It's not passive possible. Even if glider manufacturers would love to do a very safe, uh, excess size and a very, uh, uh, like brilliant one, which outperforms all. It's just. It's physically not possible. So if we, if you are there and then, then you could ask, why the hell do we need the female category at all? I mean, if you don't have any disadvantages and then we are exactly all the same, then why do we need this? And, and I have to tell you, I, I went the full circle on this because, uh, when I started paragliding, uh, and, and started flying competitions, I was super inspired watching women succeed and, uh, just by not.

Being buried in the, in the numbers, having that spotlight for the female podium was very, uh, inspirational for me. And then later on, when I studied, uh, having some success, uh, and, and, uh, I could experience standing on that podium myself. Then I, I started question because as I said, I fly an M size, I'm 185 a centimeter tall, which for Americans is 6.1, one. So I'm not an average size of woman at all. And by saying that it doesn't really feel right to me when I'm standing on the podium on the top. And there are two girls standing next to me who are like 50 kilos together. So, you know, it's just, um, I have a problem with that also.

And I was thinking about more weight categories that maybe that's all more fair and it's better. And then, uh, the more I traveled, the more I saw, I started to go back for being a, a absolutely for the female podium. And my reason is that I realized that there are some issues, what we don't really discuss. Um, it's the numbers game again, that if there are only 10 % women, then, uh, if you check the odds of, of, of, uh, brilliant, that if we check that there are 130,000 pilots worldwide from which 10 % are female, then we have 117,000. Men, we have 13,000 women.

And if we, uh, assume that there is one exceptional from 10,000, who is a genius, who's very, very good in what the person does, then we end up with 11 men and we have one woman. So fighting for a Superfinal podium, um, it's

11, one.

Yeah, it's just, and, and the, it amazes me that there are even two women, uh, in, in that 10, you know? So I think what you are saying is very true that it's, it's, um, it's, uh, it's just the numbers, you know, that it's very hard to, to, to put their exceptionally good ones from a way smaller crowd. So that's one, one reason, which, uh, which, um, which, um, I would say that, um, puts a reason behind. Why we need the female podium. And another one is, um, is that in many societies, especially in, in mine, I, I see that we are not there yet. We are not completely, uh, there where gender equality is, is not an issue anymore because we are just so equal.

We still have some, some, some differences with salary and, and when men are already able to have that type of freedom to travel, uh, women might start it a couple of years later. Uh, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, it's not something I'm judging. I'm just saying, this is a fact. So if you look at the success rate in paragliding that as we discussed, it's very mental, but obviously it needs technical learning. It takes time. So by the time somebody reaches the level to fly a Superfinal, uh, I have never made it to that level. So I, it's just my observation. It's not my personal experience, but what I see there, uh, or what I saw when I flew, um, the world. That the average age was around 40 to 50.

So if we take this into consideration that women can start, uh, comp flying late, late in their twenties or early thirties, or even later, later, later, then, um, it's already a child bearing age. And if, if they want to have a family, then they only have a couple of years to, to, to try out the comp scene or they ever, never even make it there. Because before they just advanced to that level, that they're going to be that good, they, or they have children. And, um, I don't know if, uh, if, uh, the, the risk profile is, is much different for women. Some people argue that, yes, uh, women are not that adventurous. I don't like to, to, uh, think this way.

I think it's again, very personal because there are some men who are super careful and there are some women who are. Absolutely, uh, adventurous and amazing. Uh, so it's not a gender issue, but I think it's a family issue that once you become a family, uh, men or, or, or a mother, a woman, then you just don't necessarily want to take those type of risks anymore because, um, if you have two small babies at home, then racing a CCC next to rocks, all that type of flying, we discussed that it's a big game. We do. We do it for, for, we don't even get a bunch of money doing this. We all do it for personal gain benefit for the love of it. So why would somebody want to take that risks when, uh, you know, there are, uh, there are small kids at home.

So I think it's a, it's a valid issue to discuss that, uh, that, uh, um, women don't have that much time, uh, to, to succeed. So our career career curve. Our career path is way shorter. So I think that's a good reason to, uh, to say that, uh, some positive discrimination in this area is not, um, necessarily a bad thing. It's actually something which inspires a lot of people and not just the women. It inspires men as well to push more because, uh, I, I took to many of my friends and who I started to fly with. And they say that sometimes when we go to an event together, and, uh, we, we all are in the same, we form our little team and we fly together.

I, I also inspire them that they see that it's so rare for women to, to, uh, to fly and, and they see it as a challenge for themselves and in a good way. So we really enjoy flying together and it's a healthy challenge and, and competition between friends, you know? So it's, it's something which, uh, is an opportunity and this is how I would like to look at it.

I love it. But yeah, I think that's a good way to look at it. I think it's pretty, um, insightful.

Adele, final question. And you, you, you gave this to me. I can't claim credit for this, but you wanted to talk about wanderlust and I want to talk about it just because I love that word so much. Uh, talk to me about wanderlust. And then I know you, we've, uh, we've been working at this for quite a while, so I'll be, uh, be mindful of your time.

Um, yeah, we, we discussed. We discussed it a little bit before we recorded it because, uh, um, it was always something which, uh, fascinated me, you know, why some people are so drawn to, to travel or, or adventures or adventure sports and, and some aren't. And, uh, some of my, my friends, longtime friends started to call me the crazy one or, you know, the adventurous one and all these labels I didn't really, uh, like in a way. And I asked them. I don't understand you enjoy seeing the world as well. So what, what do you think is the difference between us? And the more we tapped into that topic, the more I realized, uh, that, uh, in, in a society as a whole, we have different type of roles for people and many, many people are, are inspired or they are happy and, and they feel comfortable if their future seems stable.

And that's a very normal feeling. That's what I can totally relate to. But there is a smaller group who, who feels restless. If everything is too stable, everything is too, uh, uh, you can calculate your future for years ahead. You can see where you're going to be. Um, for me, because I belong to this group, it, I, if I feel a bit uncomfortable, not suffocating, that's not the right word. Although I heard some pilots saying that more like I feel, ah, there's no challenge there. There's no fun there. It's too easy. And, uh, I think that, uh, uh, that small group of people who can really go from the extreme to, to the average, uh, traveler and, and, and there is a, a big variety there.

Uh, this moves the society forward. We need a lot of, we need a big group of people who can keep the society stable, but we need a smaller group of people who are willing to jump off cliffs, are willing to go to the moon, willing to explore new worlds. And, and they are always curious, but the mortality rate of these people is way much higher. So it's, it's a good thing that they are the minority in the society, but for health of a society, it's very important to have these group of people. And it's, it's, it's no judging. Both of the groups are essential to have. And, uh, uh, whether you belong to one or the other, both of them are great. Just figure out where you belong, because if you stuck into your, uh, nine to five, five jobs and you hate what you do because you keep dreaming about doing something more doing, uh, big travels or experiencing some, some adventures, then don't be afraid to make a change because by the, by that leap, uh, you can find fulfillment and, and happiness.

And there's nothing wrong with you if, if you keep feeling restless and, and, and you don't understand why is it that I always need to go, um, you know, and, and, and, and, and, uh, wandering around.

Adele, what an absolutely thrilling conversation. I feel like I, I just got to inhabit your mind for a little while and I would like to do that more. I'm not sure you have the space. There's a lot of really neat things going on in there, but I just learned a ton. Um, thank you so much for sharing all of that. I think we're going to have to do a, an episode two, a part due to this at some point, um, after I get to fly with you somewhere. Chris promised me. Chris, Manfred, a very good mutual friend of ours, he promised me that this would be enlightening and a lot of fun and he was dead on. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

Thank you so much for being here. I really enjoyed it. And I'm looking forward to flying you soon in the US or in Europe if you're coming over.

There's an open invitation. We've got a cabin in the back and I think Sun Valley is one of the greatest places to fly in the world. That's why I'm here. So yes, please, let's do that. Thanks, Adela.

Thank you so much.

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