Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloud Based Mayhem. Got a great show for you today. As you've heard on the last couple of shows, I was down at the Monarca in January in Valle de Bravo. We had six epic days of racing around the sky in paragliders. I think there was 150 people in the comp. It was absolutely just awesome weather, fantastic racing. And a friend of mine was there, Marco Hergetich. I hope I'm saying that right. But a longtime PWC pilot, just air Jedi, really, really, really solid pilot. Usually flies two liners, of course, in the World Cups. But he was down there on the ENC, the 777 Queen, and just crushing. He totally won the sport class easily.
I think he was still top five overall, maybe even a little bit better than that. He was one of the only six. He was one of the only six that made goal on the final day. We set a really long task. I was on the task committee, and we set a big one on the last day. He was one of the few to get in. But just, you know, totally gliding with everybody that were on the Enzo 3s and the Booms and the really fast, you know, two liner wings on a sea. Marco lives now in Valle, has a school there, instructs there, planning on doing the 2019 X-Alps. Just prolific pilot and has a lot of experience. He's got a lot to offer. And many of you have been asking for real, you know, a lot more specifics on technique, especially when it comes to three liners, because most of the guests on the show are two liner pilots.
So this is all about you, about three line gliders, about gliders that are a little bit lower level. But as we saw in the Menarca, you can still make them go really, really good. And so this is all about instruments and harnesses and hand position and weight shifting and how much brake pressure you can put in. And how to glide better. So a lot of, you know, real specifics on how to make you fly faster. A lot of people actually at the race were coming up at the end and going, God, man, I can hang with you guys in the league gaggle for a little while, and then I just lose you. And I mean, I don't understand how do you fly so fast. So this will answer that and give you a lot of things that you can go out and practice on, even with when you're not at a comp.
Marco also has just ran the first edition of this very cool aircraft. Air Race he's doing down there in Valle, which he's going to do from now on. So keep an eye out for that. And check out the website, all the show notes that go with this show, because he we talk about polar curves. So those of you that are confused about that or how to use them, how to use McCready. We have a really good discussion about that. So all that's going to be in the show notes. He gives there's a lot of links there to the things he's talking about. And if you're kind of unsure, you just want to brush up or want to know how to put it in your head. That's all in there. Those of you who've been to Valle, you know, it's a pretty loud place. So there's honking and dogs and a lot of cars and trucks in the background. It's still worth it.
I know that's annoying, but it kind of sets the tone for where he is. And that's okay. That's what we had to deal with. So please enjoy this awesome, fascinating talk that I think you're going to get a lot out of with Marco Hergetich.
Marco, man, so cool to catch up with you. I wish we could have done this a couple weeks ago down at the Menarca live. Of course, but I've been actually dying to talk to you anyway, because you were just crushing on the E and C on the queen. So we're going to talk about that glider and how you make that thing go so fast. Because that was really awesome to see just cruising around the lead gaggle and crushing so hard. But before we do, I know many of the pilots listening to the show know who you are and have maybe gone to your courses and flown in your comps or seen you at the World Cups over the years. But can you give us kind of a quick rundown of your history of flight?
Okay, Gavin. Hi, everybody.
My name is Marco Hergetich and I come from Croatia. I'm just flying. It will be 13 years in the comp scene, probably like 11 years and flying World Cup. Probably around nine years, maybe less two years. I just didn't have time to go. The last one was I think in Azure, like two years ago. And yeah, I was still am in the Croatian team at the World Championships and European Championships. But we'll see what's if I'll keep on doing that or not. I am an instructor, a master. I'm an instructor of APPI and been teaching already a couple of years, almost 10 years from now, starting in Croatia and now doing it here in Mexico.
And what was the catalyst to bring you to Mexico? How did all that unfold?
You know, women.
As all good things do.
I came here actually for the World Championship 2009. And then at the closing ceremony, I met my wife. And that's how it unfolded later on. So that was, yeah. Is she a pilot or is
she Mexican? Or both? Both. And is your work 100 % flying related?
Yeah, now yes. I had some other businesses before, but flying really took me, takes me all the time. I have so I'm just dedicated for flying.
And does VIA work for instructing and for lessons year round? Tell me a little bit about your school. What is, are you just mostly teaching beginners? Are you doing XC clinics or what does it involve?
Well, we work all year round. For this, VIA is really great. Like we have flyable 330, 340 days per year. Even in the rainy season, we can fly in the morning. So it's really great place. So when you come to fly, to learn some course, you will know that you're going to fly. So this is really great about VIA. And then, as the season here changes, so we have the dry season and the rainy season and the conditions also during the months change, we program the courses that we give depending on the season. And mostly I teach from the beginner courses to the instructors. So, So for now, it's like that. I don't know if in the future, maybe we'll split a little bit.
But for now, I am from the beginners to the instructors. I help a lot to create new tandem pilots and instructors here in Mexico, licensed. I work as an examiner for APPI. And so, yeah, everything is just a little bit split depending on the months and the season when we can do what. But some seasons, we do just beginner courses. Some months, we do cross country courses depending on the season.
And was that tricky as a foreigner or is that because your wife is Mexican, that's not a big deal? Was that tricky to just uproot and move to a different country and start a paragliding school? I mean, was it quite hard to start getting your first clients and stuff or was it pretty seamless?
I would say, well, it has like… Two points of view. For getting the clients, I wouldn't say it was not so big problem because as I already won here a couple of competitions before I opened the school. So more or less people knew me. So it was a good start. But, you know, always when you go to work in some other country, you have to work. You have to be like twice as better as the locals. You want to be at the same level. So I must say I work hard. We work hard. It's every day 14 hours from teaching and preparing and things.
So it's working. Maybe the first year was a little bit like not so much work, but now it runs good.
And you've said APPI a couple of times. I'm not even… I'm not even familiar with that. Is that the body? Is that the license that the students end up getting? Is that a Mexican federation or who is that?
So APPI is an organization that comes from Switzerland. It's registered in Switzerland. It's an organization like any other paragliding organization. Just this one is international. APPI means Association of Paragliding Pilots and Instructors. APPI has a couple of years of history. And the idea of APPI was to create a system that could be like international recognized and a chance for a pilot that can learn in one country and then go to fly in another country and have his license recognized. APPI is quite still new.
But APPI as an organization is recognized by FAI. And so for us here for Mexico, it's in terms of FAI, it's the official system for schooling here and in some other countries also around the world. Like for people that really want to know what it is, they can find it on apifly.org. Like a lot of information about it. So we use in my school, the APPI system for teaching and for licensing and it's a really nice way to learn. We actually, I was actually twice in the US, probably some listeners will know.
In Salt Lake City, we were giving workshops for instructors and pilots, how to like improve their skills. And how to become instructors and then pilots and also get certified for in the APPI system.
Take me real, real quickly, Margo. There are a lot of listeners that are very new to the sport. And, you know, I think one of the frustrations that I hear a lot from listeners is that, you know, it depends so much on who you go to. And, you know, if you're APPI or USHPA or Swiss or French, you know, they, they, they, there, there's a lack of standardization, I think, when it comes to teaching and learning paragliding. You know, again, very briefly, but you're, you know, the APPI system or what, what, what would, you know, a total, somebody who's never flown, you know, that comes to your school, what are you, you know, take me through the syllabus.
We do it a little bit. I know USHPA system.
Because we, we like trying to do also some interviews. We're interchanging with the USHPA system.
What I can say about APPI, we have quite good the idea of how to teach to be autonomous pilot. Okay. The system of teaching is actually quite a big part is copy of the French system. Probably something also from the Swiss system. So it gives. It creates pilots, not chauffeurs, the pilots that really think and it's a lot of emphasis on the autonomy on the decision making analysis during the flight before the flight. So it has some quite good benefits that people that come into APPI from maybe some other system, they can really notice the difference.
Okay. Cool. Okay. Shifting gears here a little bit. When I got down to the Menarca, you guys were just wrapping up, uh, the XC sky race, which I think it was the first edition of that. Is that right? Yes. It was. Yeah. Good. Tell us, tell the listeners about that. Cause that seemed like a really cool way to race paragliders. That was pretty fun. That was, this was kind of your brainchild.
Yes. We were like, the idea was to create a competition where you don't. Uh, need to have a top gun glider to win. Uh, that was the idea. And then also then to show your real cross country skills, uh, for everybody in the same conditions on the same terrain, you know, it's not that maybe someone who makes, uh, has money and goes around the globe, I don't know, to shadow or somewhere else and makes a huge flights that he's actually the best cross country pilot. We wanted to make a competition. Where we can see who's the best cross country pilot, but same conditions, same everything. And just who will make, uh, the more.
So that was the main idea of the competition. That was the main idea. And then also like there are many pilots that don't like to compete on the competitions because they say, well, they always send us somewhere that I don't want to go. So here on our comp, you can fly wherever you want your, you make your own task, you fly wherever you want. And at the end of the day, who makes more kilometers, like more valuable flight, he will be the winner of the day. That was like the, say the general idea of the, of the competition. Yeah.
Talk, talk briefly about how you scored it because it was kind of a combination of, you know, you, the pilots would upload their flights to X contest. Uh, so that was, that was a score, but you also had a couple of kind of an, a couple of interesting. Uh, ways to, to handicap, depending on the glider you were on and then a really interesting finish. I don't know if I even understood that, but a cool way to, uh, you know, so it was a combination of average time. Give me, give me all the components that, that, that created the score.
So the score, like the formula that we made for scoring, uh, uh, I was really like, uh, doing, uh, brainstorming about it a lot, uh, how to make something interesting and what's the most valuable of the cross country flight, uh, if you want to make a competition. So the scoring, uh, it's not so complicated, basically you get a flight, uh, as any other cross country flight, depending if you make a, an open distance or you make a flight triangle or FAI triangle, you get scores for, for that. Uh, but the trick was where you can fly wherever you want. Yeah. Yeah. But you have to get back around the takeoff in the five kilometer radius.
So you don't get the negative points. It's like making a goal. So you have to make your own flight plan. Uh, so at the end you end up close to the goal. Maybe you can end up also somewhere further, but you will lose some points that is all a part of the tactics. So that, and then it was multiplied by the formula by the handicap factor of the gliders. So. So the idea is that all the gliders can participate. It doesn't matter if you have a top gun glider or maybe big glider, C glider, you get more points if you're flying the lower class glider. Also we wanted to do this a little bit for, for other brands that don't have top, uh, top notch gliders, uh, to participate on the competitions because it's a good chance.
Okay. Maybe you don't have a, the best TCC gliders. But I have a, I have a good chance. Uh, the best B glider and I can make a really, uh, good flights. So that was, uh, another part in the formula. And then the, the complete second part of the formula would, uh, give you points for the speed. So you could fly the same route, but in faster time, uh, as your buddies in the same category and you would score more points. We wanted to do this. So. Is. Is the idea of the cross country flight or, or the value is like personally for me, the, the cross country flight has a big value when it's planned and you can come back at the same place where you started.
So you all made, you made a good, good plan about your flight. And then also if you may made it faster than someone else. So maybe, so we have maybe two pilots, they fly same category of the glider, they make the same flight, but one of them made it one hour faster. So he should get more points because he was flying faster. So he was more efficient. So he should get more points. So that was like the other part of the formula that was giving the, the average speed points, uh, for the pilots. And sometimes it made some changes in the scoring, depending on the whole, the other pilots did. So it was quite interesting to, to see how it works.
Yeah. I see. It's an awesome concept. Uh, a good friend of mine and a guy, I know, you know, and Nate scales here in some Valley. This was our third year. He runs a comp called the inner mountain wide open and it's, uh, similar to yours, but different too. But it's, it's, uh, it's, we, it's basically your best four scores on X contest over kind of a two and a half week period and, but you can pick the site as well. So it's, you know, so it invites people from Nevada. Cause we're really spread out here, as you know, in the States. And so it's a great way for, to, to encourage a bunch of people to fly. And at the end, it's just bragging rights of, you know, who went the farthest, but I really like your concept. Cause you're, you guys are, you know, you're picking out a task you're, you're flying, you know, at the same place, the same day.
And like you said, if it was just X contest without the speed component, you know, you could fly really conservatively and, you know, try to stay in the air for seven hours and by, which would be a pretty long flight in the middle of winter and, and go really big, but you know, it's maybe not as tactical and as much strategy and is, you know, uh, efficient is, is trying to fly something really fast. So I think you're really onto something there. It's it, that's a, it's a great concept.
Yeah. It's, uh, like people liked it. We have to still like for the next version, we'll make some small upgrade in this, uh, scoring, uh, in the average speed. Uh, we saw like some things. That are maybe not so perfect. Uh, one of the reasons why I competed on the, also I was the organizer, but also competitive. I wanted to see how it works, the like where we can play and how the formula should be designed and, uh, maybe some upgrades, uh, in the future.
Very cool. Very cool. Well, listeners, I would, and I assume you're going to do that next year, right before the Monarch as well. I'm definitely going to come down and join it cause it looked like a blast. And, uh, so listeners, I'll have it. I'll have that up in the, in the show notes, the link to the XC sky race and Marco's deal. That'll be, that'll be a lot of fun. I'm sure you'll see a lot more pilots in it next year. That'd be great. Um, Mark, let's transition to you, uh, the queen. Okay. So, I mean, I think a lot of people were, there was, there was two of you guys flying that the seven, seven, seven gliders, and, uh, both of you were flying really fast. Uh, Ryan bloom was on the other one. We get a lot of questions about three glide three liners, and this is a great opportunity to, to get in. And all of that, because, you know, all of those years, I think you said 11 years of comp flying a lot of, a lot of world cups and world championships and championships
and on, uh, you know, cereal and CCC gliders and stuff and open class gliders, um, you know, you were on a C on this one. So, uh, I'd love to, I'd love for you to share your thoughts on how you were making that go so fast because it's, you know, clearly, you know, being invited helps, you know, you know, you know, the area really well. But, um, you know, it, there, you, you definitely had some secrets on all of us. So I, I, I'd love to just kind of tap into, you know, some of the things that you can pass on to our listeners that are flying B's and C's, um, maybe let's just start with, uh, start with some tips and tactics. What, what are you, what are you thinking about like in the, during the Menarco, what were your, you know, what are some of the things you were doing that you maybe saw other people not do?
Okay. So I, I will tell you like in the order of what, uh, because it was like a puzzle. It was many things that I put it together that at the end worked out good. Uh, so I will like tell you the whole story. I think what, what helped quite a lot is that a week before Menarco, I flew in, in six days, we flew like 35 hours of, I flew 35 hours. So. I was quite, uh, like sharpened. I know the terrain, I know how it works. So that helped quite a lot. But then, uh, for the comp, uh, I must say I made like a mindset that I will be flying a sea glider.
So some decisions that normally would make on a, on a comp glider, well, you, you can't make. So I really like prepared for myself. Okay. I will fly. I can't win. Uh. Uh, the whole thing that's for sure, but there are some advantages of flying, uh, a sea glider, uh, on the comp, like I want for sure be pushing the bar till the end, uh, in front of, because everybody will pass me, but if the guys are ready in front, I can use this a little bit for make a better, uh, better strategy, uh, some good tips, like I flew quite relaxed. Uh, I must say, uh, one of the reasons was the glider, uh, sea glider really relaxed.
I didn't have, uh, I didn't get tired, really relaxed. So I was, I could really be focused on, uh, not making mistakes, uh, during the flight. That was also one of the, like a little bit of the mindset, uh, preparing was like, don't make big, bad mistakes, especially on the, on the very beginning. Just like be focused. And I think the flying, uh, more relaxed helped a lot, uh, with this, like having a cool hat.
Uh, some, some, some advantages I had, uh, was, uh, the first, especially the first days we had, uh, the conditions with strong thermals, but really tight, uh, thermals and maybe on each glide, I would come a bit lower. Uh. I was in group, but I could catch up with, uh, with the turning. So every thermal, I would be already on the top of the terminal. So this is really healthy to, to stay in, uh, leading gaggle.
Let's before, before you go on, because that's, that, that's one that, you know, especially lower hours pilots, but, uh, you know, even the experts, um, you know, tell me about some techniques there because, uh, I, I was actually fielding a lot of questions in Menarca and people would come up and go, man, how are you guys? Climbing faster. Um, you know, so talk about, talk about the subtleties of, of out, out climbing other gliders because it's not, I think a lot of new pilots assume that, oh, you just got to turn inside everybody. And that's not what it is. It's, you know, there's a lot of other things going on there.
I would say the, like a tip for all the pilots, if you want to climb good, you have to always search a better climb. Yeah. And this also is quite related with, uh, with the feedback from the glider, but I got the queen, it's really stiff glider. And I was a little bit afraid if I will feel the thermals, uh, because it's really important for you to feel the terminal where it's going to be stronger and you blew up in the terminal. And so what, what worked out quite good for me that every terminal that we started, I would come with the group, maybe a bit lower. I could feel where the core was. And just was able to, to center it better and, uh, and what also helped a bit, uh, I could make a tighter turns.
Uh, so I could, I could catch up, uh, the group, but the feeling on the, on the glider is quite important. And then also being, uh, relaxed.
Okay. Keep, keep going with your other tactics. Then I'm going to, I'm going to drill down on some of this stuff.
Okay. When, when flying, uh, uh, flying a C glider, uh, a good advantage is, uh, like when the things go wrong, it's, you can fix it up quite good. So I really didn't have a problem flying in turbulence. Uh, you know, the task when we were flying over the crazy thermal and the spine, like, I don't know how many times we passed there, like six times. Yeah. Uh, like I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, and I was on the full bar all of the time. And it was just going sometimes like five meters per second up on the full bar. Uh, and I noticed for more handled, uh, pilots where I, I was there, uh, there was Kansas.
Uh, and every time they got a little bit like of the life, everybody would like really little bit of the Tennessee Torres. And car,
and little
by little, I was catching they're them the guys I just didn't touch the breaks, uh, at all. Okay. just going on bar and controlling the glider with a BC system, and that's it. And it was a really, for me, it was a good advantage. Like, for me, if it was turbulent, it was a really good advantage. Yeah, you just
didn't have to come off. I can tell that watching you. You were just powering through. It's so unusual to fly on full bar through a five-meter climb, but that was the day to do it, for sure. That was so much fun.
Okay, so next question. That's great. That's a great lead-in. You were talking about controlling the glider on the BCs. So a lot of lower-hour pilots, they are quite mystified by the two-liner thing, using the badger bars, flying on the Bs, whatever you want to call it, using those instead of going to your brakes to catch mostly every one of those. You know, clearly that's a time thing. You know, that's just experience. But, you know, I haven't flown a three-liner in years. So talk through, you know, how should people who are just learning, you know, maybe they're stepping up to their first C, how should they approach it, and then what's the goal?
Okay, what I teach on the cross country courses, especially the more advanced ones, hands up. Like, they... The hands are up, except when you're termaling. Then the hands are down. But the hands up all the time. We try, like, don't touch the brakes.
On the glides, when it's a bit turbulent or whatever, every time you touch the brake, you will lose the performance. You slow down. You slow down, you lose your glide, and then after some time, the guys that didn't touch the brakes, they really leave you. This is, well, something we were talking about, about Bruce Goldsmith's article. I completely agree that nowadays gliders should be, if you want to really make a performance, you should be flying without using the brakes on the glides. Also, there are some, like, advantages and disadvantages.
The new gliders, they are all, like, made that they can adjust themselves a bit without touching the brakes. Like, something like a reflex technology. So the glider just cuts through. And then, especially if you're putting the brakes on... If you're pulling the brakes on the glider, on the transitions on the speed bar, your profile actually becomes much more unstable, and it's more prone. For collapsing. So, heads up, it's a good tip. You have to be, like, relaxed on your glider. And, of course, you won't be doing hands up if you're close somewhere to the rocks and you didn't make a good SIV and you don't know your glider.
But if you want the performance, I tell to the students, hands up. It's 10 % performance. It's like jumping from B to C glider. Just with flying hands up. And then, again, controlling a little bit the pitch and the movement during the glides on the speed bar. One thing is controlling it with the legs, with releasing or pushing the speed bar if you're not on full all the time. And then, controlling with the back risers. So, here, with controlling the gliders, with the back risers, well, there are some couple of, like, different opinions about it.
I really like how Wallich brothers nailed it with the BC system on the Queen and the King. I must say, it was the first time, first glider with BC system I flew. So, for the people that know what it is, it's a small bridge between the, the B risers and the C risers that, so when you pull, so when you're pulling, you're pulling not just the Cs, you're pulling also, actually, also the Bs. So, it will behave, I would say, as a two-liner. So, for controlling it in the turbulence, it's really, really efficient. You're not distorting the profile of your wing,
like on a regular three-liner when you're pulling just,
just the back risers. Some guys say, some designers of some companies say, if you don't have the, like, bridge between Bs and Cs, rather use the Bs, so you don't lose the performance. And I must agree that every time you pull the back risers on the glider, you are also losing there the speed. If you check your wing up above you, you will see it deforms the profile, which in the, the queen doesn't happen when you're pulling. It really pulls it as it would be a two-liner and you're trailing there. It just nice and clean all the time.
So, let's, let's sit on that for a second, because I think a lot of pilots don't know that. So, if you don't have the kind of symmetrical, connected system that the, that the Malch brothers have done on the king and the queen, you're saying it's actually better to reach around and still fly it on the Bs? on a three liner well
that's i i personally fly with the seas okay i feel it much more comfortable and uh pulling the piece it's quite hard uh i know wallace brothers they say it would be better to pull the piece uh than the seas uh but it has it's like when i'm flying the the night that is a low b it doesn't have a bc system i use the back risers but i will always try to avoid to to use it just if i really really need it i would rather release the bar a bit with my foot uh then touching the the risers or the brakes like okay
so do more with your feet yes
do more with the feet uh and less with the hands or on any glide okay
would you would you say that's the case with two liners as well well
with the two liners it's you can control much better like the profile of the glider so i would say a combination of both on the two liners work works quite good okay
um speed so a lot of people were coming up to me at the monarca you know day three day four uh gavin man how do i fly faster you guys just leave us you just leave us and and uh um you know what what are some and you know my response to that you know most of these people that were asking that it only flown a couple comps you know or maybe that was the first one and that's just experience but what do you tell your students about you know starting to pick up efficiency and speed uh when you're when you're flying xc if
you want to fly fast the the first thing you have to do is climb fast that is like you you you can have a better glider or better glide or you're pushing more speed bar but that is really something irrelevant in comparison of how much time you lose in thermaling if you really want to fly fast then you have to be really good at thermaling it's where you spend the most of the time because your average speed when you're thermaling is zero so the more time you stay thermaling the slower you'll be flying and that that was like the key like the guys were flying fast because they really was we would find the thermal quite good we would climb it fast uh really just
into the core one round and we were in the core climbed it fast and when it got weak we were left just like spent as least time in the thermal that was the core and i can see like a tip for for uh upgrading your performance when you're thermaling and when you're flying so if you know it was like a four meter per second thermal and suddenly drops down to one let's go you don't stay there another couple of times and then you're flying and you're flying and you're flying a couple of rounds which i see a lot with beginners they stay and they need more altitude more altitude and then of course the guys in front got another four and you are still in one so it's thermaling it's it's the number one thing uh just like you better your thermal good and be have a clear decision when to leave the thermal what
about when you're on glide uh speed by i heard i heard farmer say some some really interesting things about uh you know just being super loose and and really allowing your your hips and your butt to to go with the with the glider when you're on when you're you know pressing a lot of bar and being on glide you know the the importance of being super relaxed can you can you talk about that in in other words to avoid collapse that you really wanted to go with it to you know to weight it and and to go with the the sink whereas i i think that's kind of opposite of what people mentally think you know if it suddenly drops to the right you you you go to the left you know but you really have to go with it yeah
you have to go with it i like personally my harness that i fly is uh the the ventral strap is completely loose i i fly really with harness that is super unbalanced like really unstable uh
in thermaling but it's not so good on maybe speeding uh speeding it it moves a lot so
so in other words you want to be explain that for the folks that don't don't that may may have lost you there so you want to be really sensitive you want to feel everything that's why you have it we're really opened up yes
uh i like it like that so to feel uh the thermal you can feel the convergence or the lines uh but it has also a downside uh when you get the collapses they are bigger the good thing is you have a more chance of counter steering with a more loose uh ventral strap so that's a good good thing the bad thing is when you're on the speed bar it's really unstable the harness so you have to really work it work it good with your body so you don't get the collapse but you're you're mentioning if you put yourself really stiff and the harness is uh very unstable then you will be getting collapses all the time so you you have to work maybe if you are flying i know some harnesses you can adjust this uh how you want it stable or unstable so maybe on some you can be more stiff but in my case as i fly i like it quite unstable okay
weight shift talk to me a little bit about that you know there are quite a few questions that come through there people are confused about you know should i have a hammock harness or should i have a seat board um you know and obviously these are these are dependent on you know the objective and what you're doing are you flying comps you fly and hike and fly but um you know your your students or your xc students what do you advise them on when it comes to gear and take me through the whole gamut harnesses instruments wings with
the harnesses i must say i'm not a fan of harnesses i'm not a fan of harnesses i'm not a fan of hammock harnesses uh for two reasons it's uh like both related to safety personally i think if i hit uh maybe some rocky ground uh having a seat board is something that will probably save me a bit more but then there is this other thing uh like the hammock harness normally you don't have so much force to make a counter steering especially when you have some situations when you have a big crovat and uh the glider is pulling you into the sat auto rotation uh so in this kind of situations you really want to have uh some
like uh yeah seat boards so you can lean completely on the opposite side to go out of the problem otherwise if you just hit the brake you will stall the glider and you end up in the which i saw quite recently already a couple of situations with the combination of glider hammock harness and crovat sat or spiral the a gliders now they fly they have like uh the new ones nine to one glide it's like better than my first comp glider and i make when i fly cross country courses here i fly an a glider with my students and we make a nice uh cross country flights on on an a glider maybe they're flying a b glider or also an a glider and we make nice cross country flights on an a glider so it flies amazing and it's like no worries brain-free gliders that's
great yeah that is just fantastic um what about instruments how where do you steer people there because you know there's the there's been this big transition in the last couple years to you know people being able to use apps and smartphones and stuff um what about what about that uh
well like my favorite instrument is the audi udi from naviter i must say uh even though i was working before a little bit on the development of lk8000 a couple of years ago uh
personally i'm like uh i don't like to have too much stuff because then i like start losing it and the cell phone then you need an extra battery and uh the app and uh that's and you don't see the screen and like and you need a vario part so i like to have just one thing that has everything what i need that's me personally how i like it and
does the is the audi have one of those kind of thermal tracking you know i don't know what you call that uh helper you know that kind of shows the circles and where it thinks the core is do you use that do you utilize something like that
yes yes it has it uh and i must say that i use it really a lot especially like on the comp uh every time i wanted like it gives you really a good advantage when you're a little bit below to see where was a better thermal by uh looking the colors and uh the guiding that the instrument gives you so i really use it a lot for me it's for thermaling it's a really fantastic thing just important to say like for the beginners uh you can't be thermaling and watching the instrument all the time you know look up
we had some mid-airs down there didn't we yeah
so so but but the instrument is a really important part especially if you're flying cross country alone and you want to be efficient you make uh you can try it like for pilots that didn't try the thermal helper you make a couple of turns and you think oh maybe the thermal yeah it was here i just moved a couple of meters and then when you see the map you see that you moved a lot you're really somewhere else than the thermal was and you can always come back to the there was the good spot so i must say it's it's important thing i i really i really recommend it but okay i wouldn't uh recommend it to the very beginner like take just something that makes beep and anyways you have to concentrate on the traffic and uh the type of turn and stuff and later on you can think about having uh screening colors and help you out with that stuff what
are you thinking about you you know i i maybe kind of cut you off earlier tell me again you were you were kind of talking about some of the strategy points and tactics you were thinking about during the race you know i know you've brought a lot of that across from your your world cup and world championship experience and nationals and all that kind of thing talk about that a little bit more because i think you've got a lot of valuable things to to you know for for those that are listening that you know don't have a lot of comp experience you know take us through day one to day and you know kind of how you should be how you should think about it how you should train for it how you should you know approach each day um what are what are the kind of the things how do you set yourself up for for success in a comp okay
the first thing i i this one i got uh this tip gave me one uh friend one slovenian pilot it's a don't uh screw up the first day okay that's so that is like a rule number one first day don't like first day you make it to the goal and then later on you can just upgrade so that's like i would say tip for all the pilots competitors first day it's the day that in general people we won't be pushing so hard and so just make it to the goal and after that you will have certain mental advantage over the guys that didn't make it to the goal they are under more pressure you have like already checked one goal so you will be flying much more relaxed than other pilots so this would be like a really good tip and
then probably if you're flying if you're listening this and maybe you're not flying for the very very first place looking in front where the other pilots go can save you a lot of time so we had some situations that unfortunately also some days i didn't also quite see good but uh if you look in front where the pilots went you can make a better decision don't go if they if it's not working for them we'll try something else so it's if you're flying in the back you have like some advantages of flying so just make better better decisions
that was i would say you know the last day the last day i actually uh came uh on the podium i i i missed uh the the the third overall place for six points but but it i i made it the last day uh what what happened you know we had this long task at at the end we were gliding from the north of valle back to the airport and i was there with uh piero i saw mitch in front of me and and we were in a good position but i knew if we go on a final glide we're going to be in a good position together i have a c glider they have a CCC glider like i i just can't make it with them
so i made a good decision i saw it's uh it's weak that it's windy and i left the guys i got drifted all the way to sakamakate uh got climbed and i was one of seven that made it to the goal and it put me on the podium like on the first place in the sport and cereal just by making a good decision on what was going on like easily i could have been pulled like some other guys to to go on a final glide with them and then end up short because i would end up short for sure the other guys did uh piero didn't make it and i wouldn't make it also for sure so uh decisions on the what's what's going on uh it's also good
what about um speed to fly and you know i i'd actually ask you to think about places not like via because vice you're one of these rare places where you can use i think a lot more bar than we often do in other parts of the world because you can just get in these crazy i mean that that day we had the concentric circle task that was just you know the guys that were top three just never came off bar you know there was no point you know you just never turned um but you i think speed to fly still for a lot of people is kind of this mystery thing you know we we can't you know we we can't really fly like the hang gliders you know we can't really fly mccready um so how you know how how are you deciding how much bar to fly um and especially in comps but i guess just in general but especially in comps well
i i must uh a bit of disagree here i would say and mccready rules apply for us also uh and i this is something what i also teach on the cross country courses i will tell you one secret i have a flight x6030 uh for one reason because it is has like an average thermos of the day on the scale on the on the vario and based on that i think about the speed i should be flying to have the optimum um glide uh like to be the most efficient uh so i do use it just this is something that people have to work out uh what we are normally i teach on the on some workshops for the instructors and cross country performance courses and stuff uh the tools what they can use to make their own polar curve based on their glider and how much speed bar they should be using
uh uh if you have an average speed uh
of thermals let's say two meters per second for for a comp glider it will mean you'll be flying all the time let's say 70 percent speed bar but uh for a big glider it will be maybe just 30 depends on the glider so this is something that really have to put people a little bit mathematics onto it to see how it works but uh we do have a lot of people who are doing it and we do have a lot of people who do depend on this and then also some misconception about the average uh thermal uh people think oh yeah we had uh thermals like if you really want to apply speed to fly and uh and mccready and all these theories you really need to know the real average thermal
so maybe we got like peaks five but at the end from the time you got the thermal you found the core you moved the thermal and you got the thermal and you got the thermal and you got the thermal maybe a little bit here there you got some like altitude that you divide by time and you will get what was your average speed and i will tell you if the peaks were like five the average thermal was two yeah or maybe 2.5 like if it's really blasting day it's term average thermals of three meters per second but it's really like super good so so yeah i would say it's important as you say here in why it's a bit different story because you catch convergence so if you push into it before you're winning there's some time because you're not thermaling you're just uh like flying for free but maybe if you are flying in colombia or in flats then you will really have to think about it i will tell you one story i ended up in 2009 and the first Superfinal
in pocho bustonia i ended up ninth uh overall and why this uh why uh result i bought uh 60 30 and i bought uh the speed probe that was uh telling you your air speed and then you could set up an or 60 30 the polar curve and it would tell you like which speed you should be flying uh at the the weather was not very good it was weak uh and the pilots were very eager to win so everybody was pushing a full speed bar and i was just reading the instrument i was saying this is crazy like the instrument is saying we can't push so much so every thermal i would come maybe a bit uh later into the thermal but i would come always higher into the thermal and i could stay really most of the time above the leading uh gaggle so it was like really good and really great discovery for me so it works it works just uh you have to a little bit pay attention to it so it will depend how much speed bar on the daily average uh sink uh you're flying in headwind and stuff like this and this is all something that you can play like if you draw your own polar curve and uh make some maths on it it's you will understand much better how to drain the maximum performance of your paraglider and also not to fly uh too fast yeah there are some like misconceptions um
what i also noticed uh many people goes maybe flies a big glider and on the club they go full bar against the wind and stuff like this to get a better glide but if you check your polar curve you will see that you really need a little speed bar flying against the wind and if you're flying a b so it will change between the gliders between the aspect ratio and stuff how much speed bar you should be using and i would say if you really want to have a good performance to perform good you really need to know your glider and what you can drain out of it you know the maximum performance you can take
talk about that because i know you've you've you've lost a lot of listeners there especially the folks that are getting on their first b and c you know explain polar curve explain how they can utilize it explain how they can um you know enter that into their into their systems these days with a lot of systems they've made it pretty easy you can just tell the system what wing you have and it'll enter the polars for you but can you give some more color on just just explain that because i think some people were going to be googling then right then when you were talking
well if you're googling then google geogebra.org and there you put flumen that's the name of my school or aprende a volar or you can put also polar curve and you will get like some really cool uh polar curves with stuff you can play with the wind the type of glider and you can download it on your computer and you can really play and you can see the differences between the different
uh and it will tell you your make ready speed uh how much speed bar it is and that winds so so if you really want if you're into it this is like the most fantastic thing you will find on the internet so geogebra.org and then just search flumen or put the polar curve maybe if you put like triple seven rook or boomerang it will pop out uh somewhere there cool
i'll i'll uh i'll add that to our show notes so people can see it and i'll see you in the next one bye bye explore that very cool uh a question that just came in for you actually i've got a little thing going on right now on facebook um any tips for uh saving your legs you know on a big long day when you're using a lot of speed um do you have any do you have any tips or strategies for pilots to not fry their their legs pressing so much bar uh
ronston ratchets uh like the yeah ronston ratchets uh that's definitely uh like without that you just can't make it okay so really good uh pulleys uh i i really like this orbit ronston ratchets uh you that you can buy it also online on some websites and it comes with some racing harnesses it's really really saves your legs well of course it's good also to be in good shape yeah
yeah that helps as well marco you've talked about a lot of you know kind of the like the technical things and the school stuff and you know what are what's another kind of foundational thing that you think maybe is undervalued uh or that people really need to be doing
uh i would say the SIV courses uh it's not you know SIV courses they it's always like good to have but also the way how the sivs should be done now with the sivs should be done with the sivs the modern gliders people think oh i made an SIV like a couple of years ago yeah i know how to make a full stall whatever but the thing is the gliders they changed quite a lot really a lot it's it's really not uh something uh invented the gliders behave uh quite differently and there are the techniques that were taught before on the sivs how to do the things
some are really outdated some really shouldn't be done anymore uh and especially like a focus i would give on practicing and controlling the sat outer rotation which with modern gliders with high aspect ratio is more and more common to happen so before you got some collapse it would into the spiral you would throw the reserve and all good but nowadays the gliders they like to go into the sat type outer rotation when you throw the reserve the normal way it tangles into the lines and you have a huge problem and these things can be practiced and they are really easy to to handle uh with uh with weight shifting i i do this uh on my SIV courses
and uh you can make this without any like i personally just to show it to students i do it completely without the brakes going into sat with half glider closed no brakes at all and just going out so they can see it can be done quite easily and this is something i would really focus on the pilots uh to practice on the sivs because modern gliders they really don't forgive that one
that's great advice what what about um some of the things that should be dropped from SIV you mentioned that you know a lot of the things that you know were kind of staples of SIV aren't really appropriate you
know for instance a full stall before uh it was like oh you just put the hands down and you hold it you hold it you hold it you hold it now you do this you put the hands down you hold it you hold it and you're twisted like you do you do this on xeno are twisted immediately okay so this stuff can't be done anymore this way so there are different ways now how to do a full stall especially on the high aspect ratio gliders the the the full stall should be done differently it's a different technique manner and uh how we use the back fly and stuff like like this is something completely different and uh should be like i know should be upgraded uh in the future on all the courses yeah
they um for those of you listening i actually gave a talk about this when i was down at the uh at the pre PWC in zapolta tech back in december and i showed the videos that charles and seiko have been doing they've got some great educational videos and anisee about you know about the xeno and doing a lot with your bees but also they they they very clearly show the kind of proper way to do that you know the back fly and release and and uh you know come i would think of it more kind of like an acro full stall uh and instead of you know setting yourself up for what's almost an inevitable cravat if you just bury the hands great oh fantastic um the other the other thing too you know some of the acro pilots we've had on the show they talk about you know that if you do an SIV you know i say even if you're you're good and you do an SIV once a year which we wish everybody would do at least that many but um you know usually in an SIV you get you might do a few stalls at the end of the last day kind of thing and the the acro guys are horrified by that you know what what do you what do you encourage your students to you know they all talk about at least 300 stalls before you even you know you should even think about moving on you should you mean a full stall should be like launching it should just be something you don't think about too much yeah
yeah it's true uh i fortunately can practice this uh a lot uh and i practice it even here in why with all the gliders i get i make like a whole session to know how it works i tell to my students uh always like the first SIV you will make it's just an introduction okay you won't be able to do it if you don't have the right skills you won't be able to do it if you don't learn much but you will know what can happen and how your glider behaves and and stuff you won't be confident to make some stalls but then maybe if you do it regularly and then after the third SIV then you get relaxed and if it's not like a third after five years you know uh then you get much more relaxed about uh what you're doing and to understand and so people come on my SIV like they return they change the glider they just want a little bit refreshment uh a couple of toes and uh just that they feel comfortable with it and at the end everybody's doing uh helicos black flies uh whatever like no no problem what do you like i would also say one one important thing maybe if some of the instructors are listening uh i
actually don't know that i can teach people how to glider so i think i'm gonna try to teach it's it's very good idea yeah so you know every glider that comes on the SIV like i haven't flown i first take it in the air and i try it before doing SIV with the student so i know how it behaves what i will tell him so it's like something think that helps me also a little bit me to just feel the stuff and and think but i would really recommend to the instructors like take the glider in the air try it yourself how it works so you can give a really precise instructions to your student great
um how do you feel about uh doing a bunch of SIV on you know on a comp glider is it there was i and i i don't want to put him on the spot because he may have changed his view now this was quite a few years ago but at the at the uh the world cup here in 2012 um russ ogden gave an incredible talk that you know we put up on youtube and it went crazy viral but he talked a lot about two liners and you know how things had changed and how you know just the whole old school hands up in a frontal situation was potentially lethal on these newer gliders you know you really had to catch them um so it was it was great stuff but when people asked him about practicing SIV he really actually recommended that that we didn't do it on our on our you know super high aspect wings that we do it on our old beat up b um but how do you feel about that now because you know when i look at charles and seiko's uh videos you know they're i i can't remember that i think they were doing them on the enzos too but they were certainly doing them on the xenos but um you know i it seems like now with the kind of the new knowledge and really like like you're talking about acro stalling instead of full stalls and you know utilizing backfly um it seems like we can really we can and should practice yes
uh i think like what you're flying you you should know how to stall it spin it and go out of it like whatever thing you're flying if you can't do that
in situation you can't resolve so i had uh recently talked with the guy and he says like uh it's crazy if you're flying something that you can't stall or spin uh and uh get out of it so i think people should be doing sivs also on their comp gliders for sure and i can see if you open on youtube and you search uh for fabio blanco he's teaching there the french team everybody's doing uh everything on the comp gliders looks spectacular and the guys just nail it so they can fly much more relaxed because they they have the thing in the tip of the toe if you say so great great
perfect speaking okay big transition uh we talked a little bit of x helps when i was down there do i understand correctly that you're uh you're gunning for it in 2019 okay
it should have been a bit secret but uh
yeah well that's a little bit of the idea um yes i have it for a while and uh i think uh i was listening the other day uh also the podcast about selection of the athletes i think i would have the the stuff uh just to prepare the uh physically the body uh for the thing uh i think flying is not a problem and uh just to get into good shape so mexico is good for for training we have a good terrain quite high so place for running that we go for run it's at 3 000 meters so it's really good good
training uh place
excellent well that's that's a that's super exciting and if i can if i can help your campaign in any way uh let me know that's you you learn a lot going through it of course and it's god there's just so much logistics of course as you know so it's there's many little moving parts but if i can if i can help or assist in any way let me know i'm more than happy to answer questions but it makes me smile just thinking about it it's a lot of fun
thanks for this i i know uh that is one of the like the the the things about the x ops it's the the logistics uh like the thing behind the the athlete uh and uh i know that's the most important thing yeah
that that's that's what's yeah it's the the unsung heroes for sure are your your team those the guys are really working hard but uh yeah well well cool well that's that's exciting that'll be that'll be really fun and watching how you fly Monarca that i definitely have somebody to worry about there you're an awesome pilot uh well great marco thank you for your time and i'll see you so much i really appreciate it uh that's some just super valuable stuff about three liners that's great i think the listeners are going to really enjoy that uh folks we'll be putting up in the show notes i'll be putting up all the links to marco's school and the the race he's doing down in valle and and uh all the things we were talking about i'll make sure i put all those in the show notes so check that out uh marco thanks man i really appreciate it thanks for your time thank
you gavin uh for uh inviting me to i must say i'm honored uh to to share some ideas here i really appreciate it uh and i hope my tips will help someone to become a better glider i really i really appreciate uh giving sharing here some ideas awesome
thanks marco appreciate it if
you're enjoying the show if you got something out of this one or one of the many many many previous episodes with all these uh great folks that have been so kind with their time to come on the mayhem and share their knowledge with you if you get something out of it think of it like a magazine subscription or going to the Moyes or something uh if it's been entertaining or informative all we ask for and all we've ever asked for is a buck a show we don't do this with sponsors we do it through you our listening audience so please support our work and uh we'll keep bringing it to you you can find the links to do that on cloudbasedmayhem.com or you can support us where you can support us through paypal or through patreon.com a couple different ways to do it where you can set it and forget it which is pretty fun uh you can also support it just by sharing it share it on facebook tell your friends share it on other platforms uh follow us on facebook instagram all those that's a way where i can leverage my own sponsors to help make this work so lots of different ways you can do this but mostly just spread the word it's all about making the community safer and making us all better pilots thanks a lot appreciate it we'll see you on the next show cheers