Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloudbase Mayhem. Got a great show for you today. As you've heard on the last couple of shows, I was down at the Monarca in January in Valle de Bravo. We had six epic days of racing around the sky in paragliders. I think there was 150 people in the comp. It was absolutely just awesome weather, fantastic racing. And a friend of mine was there, Marco Hergetich. I hope I'm saying that right. But a longtime PWC pilot, just air Jedi, really, really, really solid pilot. Usually flies two liners, of course, in the World Cups. But he was down there on the ENC, the 777 Queen, and just crushing. He totally won the sport class easily.
I think he was still top five overall, maybe even a little bit better than that. He was one of the only six. He was one of the only six that made goal on the final day. We set a really long task. I was on the task committee, and we set a big one on the last day. He was one of the few to get in. But just, you know, totally gliding with everybody that were on the Enzo 3s and the Booms and the really fast, you know, two liner wings on a sea. Marco lives now in Valle, has a school there, instructs there, planning on doing the 2019 X-Alps. Just prolific pilot and has a lot of experience. He's got a lot to offer. And many of you have been asking for real, you know, a lot more specifics on technique, especially when it comes to three liners, because most of the guests on the show are two liner pilots.
So this is all about you, about three line gliders, about gliders that are a little bit lower level. But as we saw in the Monarca, you can still make them go really, really good. And so this is all about instruments and harnesses and hand position and weight shifting and how much brake pressure you can put in. And how to glide better. So a lot of, you know, real specifics on how to make you fly faster. A lot of people actually at the race were coming up at the end and going, God, man, I can hang with you guys in the league gaggle for a little while, and then I just lose you. And I mean, I don't understand how do you fly so fast. So this will answer that and give you a lot of things that you can go out and practice on, even with when you're not at a comp.
Marco also has just ran the first edition of this very cool aircraft. Air Race he's doing down there in Valle, which he's going to do from now on. So keep an eye out for that. And check out the website, all the show notes that go with this show, because he we talk about polar curves. So those of you that are confused about that or how to use them, how to use McCready. We have a really good discussion about that. So all that's going to be in the show notes. He gives there's a lot of links there to the things he's talking about. And if you're kind of unsure, you just want to brush up or want to know how to put it in your head. That's all in there. Those of you who've been to Valle, you know, it's a pretty loud place. So there's honking and dogs and a lot of cars and trucks in the background. It's still worth it.
I know that's annoying, but it kind of sets the tone for where he is. And that's okay. That's what we had to deal with. So please enjoy this awesome, fascinating talk that I think you're going to get a lot out of with Marco Hergetich.
Marco, man, so cool to catch up with you. I wish we could have done this a couple weeks ago down at the Monarca live. Of course, but I've been actually dying to talk to you anyway, because you were just crushing on the E and C on the queen. So we're going to talk about that glider and how you make that thing go so fast. Because that was really awesome to see just cruising around the lead gaggle and crushing so hard. But before we do, I know many of the pilots listening to the show know who you are and have maybe gone to your courses and flown in your comps or seen you at the World Cups over the years. But can you give us kind of a quick rundown of your history of flight?
Okay, Gavin. Hi, everybody.
My name is Marco Hergetich and I come from Croatia. I'm just flying. It will be 13 years in the comp scene, probably like 11 years and flying World Cup. Probably around nine years, maybe less two years. I just didn't have time to go. The last one was I think in Azure, like two years ago. And yeah, I was still am in the Croatian team at the World Championships and European Championships. But we'll see what's if I'll keep on doing that or not. I am an instructor, a master. I'm an instructor of APPI and been teaching already a couple of years, almost 10 years from now, starting in Croatia and now doing it here in Mexico.
And what was the catalyst to bring you to Mexico? How did all that unfold?
You know, women.
As all good things do.
I came here actually for the World Championship 2009. And then at the closing ceremony, I met my wife. And that's how it unfolded later on. So that was, yeah. Is she a pilot or is
she Mexican? Or both? Both. And is your work 100 % flying related?
Yeah, now yes. I had some other businesses before, but flying really took me, takes me all the time. I have so I'm just dedicated for flying.
And does VIA work for instructing and for lessons year round? Tell me a little bit about your school. What is, are you just mostly teaching beginners? Are you doing XC clinics or what does it involve?
Well, we work all year round. For this, VIA is really great. Like we have flyable 330, 340 days per year. Even in the rainy season, we can fly in the morning. So it's really great place. So when you come to fly, to learn some course, you will know that you're going to fly. So this is really great about VIA. And then, as the season here changes, so we have the dry season and the rainy season and the conditions also during the months change, we program the courses that we give depending on the season. And mostly I teach from the beginner courses to the instructors. So, So for now, it's like that. I don't know if in the future, maybe we'll split a little bit.
But for now, I am from the beginners to the instructors. I help a lot to create new tandem pilots and instructors here in Mexico, licensed. I work as an examiner for APPI. And so, yeah, everything is just a little bit split depending on the months and the season when we can do what. But some seasons, we do just beginner courses. Some months, we do cross country courses depending on the season.
And was that tricky as a foreigner or is that because your wife is Mexican, that's not a big deal? Was that tricky to just uproot and move to a different country and start a paragliding school? I mean, was it quite hard to start getting your first clients and stuff or was it pretty seamless?
I would say, well, it has like… Two points of view. For getting the clients, I wouldn't say it was not so big problem because as I already won here a couple of competitions before I opened the school. So more or less people knew me. So it was a good start. But, you know, always when you go to work in some other country, you have to work. You have to be like twice as better as the locals. You want to be at the same level. So I must say I work hard. We work hard. It's every day 14 hours from teaching and preparing and things.
So it's working. Maybe the first year was a little bit like not so much work, but now it runs good.
And you've said APPI a couple of times. I'm not even… I'm not even familiar with that. Is that the body? Is that the license that the students end up getting? Is that a Mexican federation or who is that?
So APPI is an organization that comes from Switzerland. It's registered in Switzerland. It's an organization like any other paragliding organization. Just this one is international. APPI means Association of Paragliding Pilots and Instructors. APPI has a couple of years of history. And the idea of APPI was to create a system that could be like international recognized, and a chance for a pilot that can learn in one country and then go to fly in another country and have his license recognized. APPI is quite still new.
But APPI as an organization is recognized by FAI. And so for us here for Mexico, it's in terms of FAI, it's the official system for schooling here and in some other countries also around the world. Like for people that really want to know what it is, they can find it on apifly.org. Like a lot of information about it. So we use in my school, the APPI system for teaching and for licensing and it's a really nice way to learn. We actually, I was actually twice in the US, probably some listeners will know.
In Salt Lake City, we were giving workshops for instructors and pilots, how to like improve their skills. And how to become instructors and then pilots and also get certified for in the APPI system.
Take me real, real quickly, Margo. There are a lot of listeners that are very new to the sport. And, you know, I think one of the frustrations that I hear a lot from listeners is that, you know, it depends so much on who you go to. And, you know, if you're APPI or USHPA or Swiss or French, you know, they, they, they, there, there's a lack of standardization, I think, when it comes to teaching and learning paragliding. You know, again, very briefly, but you're, you know, the APPI system or what, what, what would, you know, a total, somebody who's never flown, you know, that comes to your school, what are you, you know, take me through the syllabus.
We do it a little bit. I know USHPA system.
Because we, we like trying to do also some interviews. We're interchanging with the USHPA system.
What I can say about APPI, we have quite good the idea of how to teach to be autonomous pilot. Okay. The system of teaching is actually quite a big part is copy of the French system. Probably something also from the Swiss system. So it gives. It creates pilots, not chauffeurs, the pilots that really think and it's a lot of emphasis on the autonomy on the decision making analysis during the flight before the flight. So it has some quite good benefits that people that come into APPI from maybe some other system, they can really notice the difference.
Okay. Cool. Okay. Shifting gears here a little bit. When I got down to the Monarca, you guys were just wrapping up, uh, the XC sky race, which I think it was the first edition of that. Is that right? Yes. It was. Yeah. Good. Tell us, tell the listeners about that. Cause that seemed like a really cool way to race paragliders. That was pretty fun. That was, this was kind of your brainchild.
Yes. We were like, the idea was to create a competition where you don't. Uh, need to have a top gun glider to win. Uh, that was the idea. And then also then to show your real cross country skills, uh, for everybody in the same conditions on the same terrain, you know, it's not that maybe someone who makes, uh, has money and goes around the globe, I don't know, to shadow or somewhere else and makes a huge flights that he's actually the best cross country pilot. We wanted to make a competition. Where we can see who's the best cross country pilot, but same conditions, same everything. And just who will make, uh, the more.
So that was the main idea of the competition. That was the main idea. And then also like there are many pilots that don't like to compete on the competitions because they say, well, they always send us somewhere that I don't want to go. So here on our comp, you can fly wherever you want your, you make your own task, you fly wherever you want. And at the end of the day, who makes more kilometers, like more valuable flight, he will be the winner of the day. That was like the, say the general idea of the, of the competition. Yeah.
Talk, talk briefly about how you scored it because it was kind of a combination of, you know, you, the pilots would upload their flights to X contest. Uh, so that was, that was a score, but you also had a couple of kind of an, a couple of interesting. Uh, ways to, to handicap, depending on the glider you were on and then a really interesting finish. I don't know if I even understood that, but a cool way to, uh, you know, so it was a combination of average time. Give me, give me all the components that, that, that created the score.
So the score, like the formula that we made for scoring, uh, uh, I was really like, uh, doing, uh, brainstorming about it a lot, uh, how to make something interesting and what's the most valuable of the cross country flight, uh, if you want to make a competition. So the scoring, uh, it's not so complicated, basically you get a flight, uh, as any other cross country flight, depending if you make a, an open distance or you make a flight triangle or FAI triangle, you get scores for, for that. Uh, but the trick was where you can fly wherever you want. Yeah. Yeah. But you have to get back around the takeoff in the five kilometer radius.
So you don't get the negative points. It's like making a goal. So you have to make your own flight plan. Uh, so at the end you end up close to the goal. Maybe you can end up also somewhere further, but you will lose some points that is all a part of the tactics. So that, and then it was multiplied by the formula by the handicap factor of the gliders. So. So the idea is that all the gliders can participate. It doesn't matter if you have a top gun glider or maybe big glider, C glider, you get more points if you're flying the lower class glider. Also we wanted to do this a little bit for, for other brands that don't have top, uh, top notch gliders, uh, to participate on the competitions because it's a good chance.
Okay. Maybe you don't have a, the best TCC gliders. But I have a, I have a good chance. Uh, the best B glider and I can make a really, uh, good flights. So that was, uh, another part in the formula. And then the, the complete second part of the formula would, uh, give you points for the speed. So you could fly the same route, but in faster time, uh, as your buddies in the same category and you would score more points. We wanted to do this. So. Is. Is the idea of the cross country flight or, or the value is like personally for me, the, the cross country flight has a big value when it's planned and you can come back at the same place where you started.
So you all made, you made a good, good plan about your flight. And then also if you may made it faster than someone else. So maybe, so we have maybe two pilots, they fly same category of the glider, they make the same flight, but one of them made it one hour faster. So he should get more points because he was flying faster. So he was more efficient. So he should get more points. So that was like the other part of the formula that was giving the, the average speed points, uh, for the pilots. And sometimes it made some changes in the scoring, depending on the whole, the other pilots did. So it was quite interesting to, to see how it works.
Yeah. I see. It's an awesome concept. Uh, a good friend of mine and a guy, I know, you know, and Nate scales here in some Valley. This was our third year. He runs a comp called the inner mountain wide open and it's, uh, similar to yours, but different too. But it's, it's, uh, it's, we, it's basically your best four scores on X contest over kind of a two and a half week period and, but you can pick the site as well. So it's, you know, so it invites people from Nevada. Cause we're really spread out here, as you know, in the States. And so it's a great way for, to, to encourage a bunch of people to fly. And at the end, it's just bragging rights of, you know, who went the farthest, but I really like your concept. Cause you're, you guys are, you know, you're picking out a task you're, you're flying, you know, at the same place, the same day.
And like you said, if it was just X contest without the speed component, you know, you could fly really conservatively and, you know, try to stay in the air for seven hours and by, which would be a pretty long flight in the middle of winter and, and go really big, but you know, it's maybe not as tactical and as much strategy and is, you know, uh, efficient is, is trying to fly something really fast. So I think you're really onto something there. It's it, that's a, it's a great concept.
Yeah. It's, uh, like people liked it. We have to still like for the next version, we'll make some small upgrade in this, uh, scoring, uh, in the average speed. Uh, we saw like some things. That are maybe not so perfect. Uh, one of the reasons why I competed on the, also I was the organizer, but also competitive. I wanted to see how it works, the like where we can play and how the formula should be designed and, uh, maybe some upgrades, uh, in the future.
Very cool. Very cool. Well, listeners, I would, and I assume you're going to do that next year, right before the Monarca as well. I'm definitely going to come down and join it cause it looked like a blast. And, uh, so listeners, I'll have it. I'll have that up in the, in the show notes, the link to the XC sky race and Marco's deal. That'll be, that'll be a lot of fun. I'm sure you'll see a lot more pilots in it next year. That'd be great. Um, Mark, let's transition to you, uh, the queen. Okay. So, I mean, I think a lot of people were, there was, there was two of you guys flying that the seven, seven, seven gliders, and, uh, both of you were flying really fast. Uh, Ryan bloom was on the other one. We get a lot of questions about three glide three liners, and this is a great opportunity to, to get in. And all of that, because, you know, all of those years, I think you said 11 years of comp flying a lot of, a lot of world cups and world championships and championships
and on, uh, you know, cereal and CCC gliders and stuff and open class gliders, um, you know, you were on a C on this one. So, uh, I'd love to, I'd love for you to share your thoughts on how you were making that go so fast because it's, you know, clearly, you know, being invited helps, you know, you know, you know, the area really well. But, um, you know, it, there, you, you definitely had some secrets on all of us. So I, I, I'd love to just kind of tap into, you know, some of the things that you can pass on to our listeners that are flying B's and C's, um, maybe let's just start with, uh, start with some tips and tactics. What, what are you, what are you thinking about like in the, during the Menarco, what were your, you know, what are some of the things you were doing that you maybe saw other people not do?
Okay. So I, I will tell you like in the order of what, uh, because it was like a puzzle. It was many things that I put it together that at the end worked out good. Uh, so I will like tell you the whole story. I think what, what helped quite a lot is that a week before Menarco, I flew in, in six days, we flew like 35 hours of, I flew 35 hours. So. I was quite, uh, like sharpened. I know the terrain, I know how it works. So that helped quite a lot. But then, uh, for the comp, uh, I must say I made like a mindset that I will be flying a sea glider.
So some decisions that normally would make on a, on a comp glider, well, you, you can't make. So I really like prepared for myself. Okay. I will fly. I can't win. Uh. Uh, the whole thing that's for sure, but there are some advantages of flying, uh, a sea glider, uh, on the comp, like I want for sure be pushing the bar till the end, uh, in front of, because everybody will pass me, but if the guys are ready in front, I can use this a little bit for make a better, uh, better strategy, uh, some good tips, like I flew quite relaxed. Uh, I must say, uh, one of the reasons was the glider, uh, sea glider really relaxed.
I didn't have, uh, I didn't get tired, really relaxed. So I was, I could really be focused on, uh, not making mistakes, uh, during the flight. That was also one of the, like a little bit of the mindset, uh, preparing was like, don't make big, bad mistakes, especially on the, on the very beginning. Just like be focused. And I think the flying, uh, more relaxed helped a lot, uh, with this, like having a cool hat.
Uh, some, some, some advantages I had, uh, was, uh, the first, especially the first days we had, uh, the conditions with strong thermals, but really tight, uh, thermals and maybe on each glide, I would come a bit lower. Uh. I was in group, but I could catch up with, uh, with the turning. So every thermal, I would be already on the top of the terminal. So this is really healthy to, to stay in, uh, leading gaggle.
Let's before, before you go on, because that's, that, that's one that, you know, especially lower hours pilots, but, uh, you know, even the experts, um, you know, tell me about some techniques there because, uh, I, I was actually fielding a lot of questions in Monarca and people would come up and go, man, how are you guys? Climbing faster. Um, you know, so talk about, talk about the subtleties of, of out, out climbing other gliders because it's not, I think a lot of new pilots assume that, oh, you just got to turn inside everybody. And that's not what it is. It's, you know, there's a lot of other things going on there.
I would say the, like a tip for all the pilots, if you want to climb good, you have to always search a better climb. Yeah. And this also is quite related with, uh, with the feedback from the glider, but I got the queen, it's really stiff glider. And I was a little bit afraid if I will feel the thermals, uh, because it's really important for you to feel the terminal where it's going to be stronger and you blew up in the terminal. And so what, what worked out quite good for me that every terminal that we started, I would come with the group, maybe a bit lower. I could feel where the core was. And just was able to, to center it better and, uh, and what also helped a bit, uh, I could make a tighter turns.
Uh, so I could, I could catch up, uh, the group, but the feeling on the, on the glider is quite important. And then also being, uh, relaxed.
Okay. Keep, keep going with your other tactics. Then I'm going to, I'm going to drill down on some of this stuff.
Okay. When, when flying, uh, uh, flying a C glider, uh, a good advantage is, uh, like when the things go wrong, it's, you can fix it up quite good. So I really didn't have a problem flying in turbulence. Uh, you know, the task when we were flying over the crazy thermal and the spine, like, I don't know how many times we passed there, like six times. Yeah. Uh, like I, and I was on the full bar all of the time. And it was just going sometimes like five meters per second up on the full bar. Uh, and I noticed for more handled, uh, pilots where I, I was there, uh, there was Kansas.
Uh, and every time they got a little bit like of the life, everybody would like really little bit of the Tennessee Torres. And car,
and little
by little, I was catching they're them the guys I just didn't touch the breaks, uh, at all. Okay. just going on bar and controlling the glider with a BC system, and that's it. And it was a really, for me, it was a good advantage. Like, for me, if it was turbulent, it was a really good advantage. Yeah, you just
didn't have to come off. I can tell that watching you. You were just powering through. It's so unusual to fly on full bar through a five-meter climb, but that was the day to do it, for sure. That was so much fun.
Okay, so next question. That's great. That's a great lead-in. You were talking about controlling the glider on the BCs. So a lot of lower-hour pilots, they are quite mystified by the two-liner thing, using the badger bars, flying on the Bs, whatever you want to call it, using those instead of going to your brakes to catch mostly every one of those. You know, clearly that's a time thing. You know, that's just experience. But, you know, I haven't flown a three-liner in years. So talk through, you know, how should people who are just learning, you know, maybe they're stepping up to their first C, how should they approach it, and then what's the goal?
Okay, what I teach on the cross country courses, especially the more advanced ones, hands up. Like, they... The hands are up, except when you're thermaling. Then the hands are down. But the hands up all the time. We try, like, don't touch the brakes.
On the glides, when it's a bit turbulent or whatever, every time you touch the brake, you will lose the performance. You slow down. You slow down, you lose your glide, and then after some time, the guys that didn't touch the brakes, they really leave you. This is, well, something we were talking about, about Bruce Goldsmith's article. I completely agree that nowadays gliders should be, if you want to really make a performance, you should be flying without using the brakes on the glides. Also, there are some, like, advantages and disadvantages.
The new gliders, they are all, like, made that they can adjust themselves a bit without touching the brakes. Like, something like a reflex technology. So the glider just cuts through. And then, especially if you're putting the brakes on... If you're pulling the brakes on the glider, on the transitions on the speed bar, your profile actually becomes much more unstable, and it's more prone. For collapsing. So, heads up, it's a good tip. You have to be, like, relaxed on your glider. And, of course, you won't be doing hands up if you're close somewhere to the rocks and you didn't make a good SIV and you don't know your glider.
But if you want the performance, I tell to the students, hands up. It's 10 % performance. It's like jumping from B to C glider. Just with flying hands up. And then, again, controlling a little bit the pitch and the movement during the glides on the speed bar. One thing is controlling it with the legs, with releasing or pushing the speed bar if you're not on full all the time. And then, controlling with the back risers. So, here, with controlling the gliders, with the back risers, well, there are some couple of, like, different opinions about it.
I really like how Wallich brothers nailed it with the BC system on the Queen and the King. I must say, it was the first time, first glider with BC system I flew. So, for the people that know what it is, it's a small bridge between the, the B risers and the C risers that, so when you pull, so when you're pulling, you're pulling not just the Cs, you're pulling also, actually, also the Bs. So, it will behave, I would say, as a two-liner. So, for controlling it in the turbulence, it's really, really efficient. You're not distorting the profile of your wing,
like on a regular three-liner when you're pulling just,
just the back risers. Some guys say, some designers of some companies say, if you don't have the, like, bridge between Bs and Cs, rather use the Bs, so you don't lose the performance. And I must agree that every time you pull the back risers on the glider, you are also losing there the speed. If you check your wing up above you, you will see it deforms the profile, which in the, the queen doesn't happen when you're pulling. It really pulls it as it would be a two-liner and you're trailing there. It just nice and clean all the time.
So, let's, let's sit on that for a second, because I think a lot of pilots don't know that. So, if you don't have the kind of symmetrical, connected system that the, that the Malch brothers have done on the king and the queen, you're saying it's actually better to reach around and still fly it on the Bs? on a three liner well
That's, I, I personally fly with the seas, okay? I feel it much more comfortable and, uh, pulling the piece, it's quite hard. Uh, I know Wallace Brothers, they say it would be better to pull the piece, uh, than the seas, uh, but it has, it's like when I'm flying the, the night that is a low B, it doesn't have a BC system. I use the back risers, but I will always try to avoid to, to use it, just if I really, really need it, I would rather release the bar a bit with my foot, uh, then touching the, the risers or the brakes, like okay.
So do more with your feet, yes.
Do more with the feet, uh, and less with the hands, or on any glide, okay?
Would you, would you say that's the case with two liners as well? Well,
With the two liners, it's you can control much better like the profile of the glider, so I would say a combination of both on the two liners work works quite good, okay?
Um speed, so a lot of people were coming up to me at the Monarca, you know, day three, day four. Uh, Gavin, man, how do I fly faster? You guys just leave us, you just leave us. And and uh um, you know what, what are some? And you know, my response to that, you know, most of these people that were asking that, it only flown a couple comps, you know, or maybe that was the first one, and that's just experience. But what do you tell your students about, you know, starting to pick up efficiency and speed, uh, when you're, when you're flying XC, if
You want to fly fast, the the first thing you have to do is climb fast. That is like, you, you, you can have a better glider or better glide, or you're pushing more speed bar, but that is really something irrelevant in comparison of how much time you lose in thermaling. If you really want to fly fast, then you have to be really good at thermaling. It's where you spend the most of the time because your average speed when you're thermaling is zero, so the more time you stay thermaling, the slower you'll be flying. And that, that was like the key. Like the guys were flying fast because they really was. We would find the thermal quite good, we would climb it fast, uh, really just
into the core, one round, and we were in the core, climbed it fast, and when it got weak, we were left just like spent as least time in the thermal. That was the core, and I can see like a tip for, for, uh, upgrading your performance when you're thermaling and when you're flying. So, if you know it was like a four meter per second thermal and suddenly drops down to one, let's go, you don't stay there another couple of times, and then you're flying and you're flying and you're flying a couple of rounds, which I see a lot with beginners. They stay and they need more altitude, more altitude, and then of course the guys in front got another four and you are still in one. So, it's thermaling, it's, it's the number one thing, uh, just like you better your thermal good and be have a clear decision when to leave the thermal.
What
About when you're on glide, uh, speed by, I heard, I heard farmer say some, some really interesting things about, uh, you know, just being super loose and and really allowing your, your hips and your butt to, to go with the, with the glider when you're on, when you're, you know, pressing a lot of bar and being on glide, you know, the, the importance of being super relaxed. Can you, can you talk about that in, in other words, to avoid collapse, that you really wanted to go with it, to, you know, to weight it and, and to go with the, the sink? Whereas, I, I think that's kind of opposite of what people mentally think, you know, if it suddenly drops to the right, you, you, you go to the left, you know, but you really have to go with it.
Yeah.
You have to go with it. I like personally, my harness that I fly is, uh, the the ventral strap is completely loose. I I fly really with harness that is super unbalanced, like really unstable, uh.
In thermaling, but it's not so good on maybe speeding, uh, speeding it. It moves a lot, so
So, in other words, you want to be... explain that for the folks that don't, don't, that may, may have lost you there. So you want to be really sensitive, you want to feel everything. That's why you have it. We're really opened up, yes.
Uh, I like it like that, so to feel, uh, the thermal, you can feel the convergence or the lines, uh, but it has also a downside, uh, when you get the collapses, they are bigger. The good thing is you have a more chance of counter steering with a more loose, uh, ventral strap, so that's a good, good thing. The bad thing is when you're on the speed bar, it's really unstable, the harness, so you have to really work it, work it good with your body, so you don't get the collapse. But you're, you're mentioning if you put yourself really stiff and the harness is, uh, very unstable, then you will be getting collapses all the time.
So you, you have to work, maybe if you are flying, I know some harnesses you can adjust this, uh, how you want it, stable or unstable, so maybe on some you can be more stiff, but in my case, as I fly, I like it quite unstable, okay?
Weight shift. Talk to me a little bit about that. You know, there are quite a few questions that come through there. People are confused about, you know, should I have a hammock harness or should I have a seat board? Um, you know, and obviously these are—these are dependent on, you know, the objective and what you're doing. Are you flying comps? You fly and hike and fly? But um, you know, your—your students or your XC students, what do you advise them on when it comes to gear? And take me through the whole gamut: harnesses, instruments, wings with
The harnesses, I must say, I'm not a fan of harnesses. I'm not a fan of harnesses, I'm not a fan of hammock harnesses, uh, for two reasons. It's, uh, like both related to safety. Personally, I think if I hit, uh, maybe some rocky ground, uh, having a seat board is something that will probably save me a bit more. But then there is this other thing, uh, like the hammock harness normally you don't have so much force to make a counter steering, especially when you have some situations when you have a big crovat and, uh, the glider is pulling you into the sat auto rotation, uh, so in this kind of situations you really want to have, uh, some
like, uh, yeah, seat boards, so you can lean completely on the opposite side to go out of the problem. Otherwise, if you just hit the brake, you will stall the glider and you end up in the, which I saw quite recently, already a couple of situations with the combination of glider, hammock, harness, and crovat sat or spiral. The A gliders, now they fly, they have like, uh, the new ones, nine to one glide. It's like better than my first comp glider, and I make when I fly cross country courses here, I fly an A glider with my students and we make a nice, uh, cross country flights on, on an A glider. Maybe they're flying a B glider or also an A glider, and we make nice cross country flights on an A glider.
So it flies amazing and it's like, no worries, brain-free gliders. That's
Great, yeah, that is just fantastic. Um, what about instruments? How, where do you steer people there? Because, you know, there's the—there's been this big transition in the last couple years to, you know, people being able to use apps and smartphones and stuff. Um, what about—what about that, uh?
well, like my favorite instrument is the Oudie from Naviter, I must say, uh, even though I was working before a little bit on the development of LK8000 a couple of years ago, uh
Personally, I'm like, uh, I don't like to have too much stuff because then I like start losing it, and the cell phone, then you need an extra battery, and uh, the app, and uh, that's, and you don't see the screen, and like, and you need a vario part, so I like to have just one thing that has everything what I need. That's me personally, how I like it, and
Does the... is the Audi have one of those kind of thermal tracking, you know, I don't know what you call that, uh, helper? You know, that kind of shows the circles and where it thinks the core is. Do you use that? Do you utilize something like that?
Yes, yes, it has it, uh, and I must say that I use it really a lot, especially like on the comp, uh, every time I wanted, like, it gives you really a good advantage when you're a little bit below to see where was a better thermal by, uh, looking the colors and, uh, the guiding that the instrument gives you. So I really use it a lot. For me, it's for thermaling, it's a really fantastic thing. Just important to say, like, for the beginners, uh, you can't be thermaling and watching the instrument all the time, you know? Look up
We had some mid-airs down there, didn't we? Yeah.
So, so, but but the instrument is a really important part, especially if you're flying cross country alone and you want to be efficient. You make, uh, you can try it like for pilots that didn't try the thermal helper, you make a couple of turns and you think, "Oh, maybe the thermal, yeah, it was here," I just moved a couple of meters. And then when you see the map, you see that you moved a lot, you're really somewhere else than the thermal was, and you can always come back to the there was the good spot. So I must say it's, it's important thing. I, I really, I really recommend it. But okay, I wouldn't, uh, recommend it to the very beginner, like take just something that makes beep.
And anyways, you have to concentrate on the traffic and, uh, the type of turn and stuff, and later on you can think about having, uh, screening colors and help you out with that stuff. What
Are you thinking about you? You know, I, I maybe kind of cut you off earlier. Tell me again, you were, you were kind of talking about some of the strategy points and tactics you were thinking about during the race. You know, I know you've brought a lot of that across from your, your World Cup and World Championship experience and Nationals and all that kind of thing. Talk about that a little bit more, because I think you've got a lot of valuable things to, to you know, for, for those that are listening that, you know, don't have a lot of comp experience. You know, take us through day one to day and, you know, kind of how you should be, how you should think about it, how you should train for it, how you should, you know, approach each day. Um, what are, what are the kind of the things? How do you set yourself up for, for success in a comp? Okay.
The first thing I, I, this one I got, uh, this tip gave me, one, uh, friend, one Slovenian pilot, it's a, don't, uh, screw up the first day, okay? That's so, that is like a rule number one, first day, don't, like, first day, you make it to the goal and then later on you can just upgrade. So that's like, I would say, tip for all the pilots, competitors, first day, it's the day that, in general, people, we won't be pushing so hard and so just make it to the goal and after that, you will have certain mental advantage over the guys that didn't make it to the goal.
They are under more pressure, you have like already checked one goal, so you will be flying much more relaxed than other pilots. So this would be like a really good tip and Then probably, if you're flying, if you're listening this and maybe you're not flying, for the very, very first place, looking in front where the other pilots go can save you a lot of time. So we had some situations that, unfortunately, also some days I didn't also quite see good, but uh, if you look in front where the pilots went, you can make a better decision.
Don't go if they, if it's not working for them, we'll try something else. So it's, if you're flying in the back, you have like some advantages of flying, so just make better, better decisions. That was, I would say, you know, the last day. The last day I actually, uh, came, uh, on the podium. I, I, I missed, uh, the, the, the third overall place for six points, but, but it, I, I made it. The last day, uh, what, what happened? You know, we had this long task at, at the end. We were gliding from the north of Valle back to the airport, and I was there with, uh, Piero.
I saw Mitch in front of me, and, and we were in a good position, but I knew if we go on a final glide, we're going to be in a good position together. I have a C glider, they have a CCC glider, like, I, I just can't make it with them. So I made a good decision. I saw it's, uh, it's weak that it's windy, and I left the guys. I got drifted all the way to Sakamakate, uh, got climbed, and I was one of seven that made it to the goal, and it put me on the podium, like on the first place in the sport, and cereal just by making a good decision on what was going on. Like, easily I could have been pulled like some other guys to to go on a final glide with them and then end up short, because I would end up short for sure.
The other guys did, uh, Piero didn't make it, and I wouldn't make it also for sure. So, uh, decisions on the what's what's going on, uh, it's also good.
What about, um, speed to fly? And you know, I, I'd actually ask you to think about places, not like Via, because Vice, you're one of these rare places where you can use, I think, a lot more bar than we often do in other parts of the world because you can just get in these crazy—I mean, that, that day we had the concentric circle task, that was just, you know, the guys that were top three just never came off bar. You know, there was no point, you know, you just never turned. Um, but you, I think speed to fly still for a lot of people is kind of this mystery thing. You know, we, we can't, you know, we, we can't really fly like the hang gliders, you know, we can't really fly McCready. Um, so how, you know, how, how are you deciding how much bar to fly, um, and especially in comps, but I guess just in general, but especially in comps, well
I, I must, uh, a bit of disagree here, I would say, and McCready rules apply for us also, uh, and I, this is something what I also teach on the cross country courses. I will tell you one secret: I have a Flight X6030, uh, for one reason because it is has like an average thermos of the day on the scale on the, on the vario, and based on that, I think about the speed I should be flying to have the optimum, um, glide, uh, like to be the most efficient, uh, so I do use it. Just this is something that people have to work out, uh, what we are normally I teach on the, on some workshops for the instructors and cross country performance courses and stuff, uh, the tools what they can use to make their own polar curve based on their glider and how much speed bar they should be using
Uh, uh, if you have an average speed, uh...
of thermals, let's say two meters per second for, for a comp glider, it will mean you'll be flying all the time. Let's say 70 percent speed bar, but, uh, for a big glider, it will be maybe just 30, depends on the glider. So this is something that really have to put people a little bit mathematics onto it to see how it works, but, uh, we do have a lot of people who are doing it, and we do have a lot of people who do depend on this, and then also some misconception about the average, uh, thermal. Uh, people think, "Oh yeah, we had, uh, thermals," like, if you really want to apply speed to fly and, uh, and McCready and all these theories, you really need to know the real average thermal
So maybe we got like peaks five, but at the end, from the time you got the thermal, you found the core, you moved maybe a little bit here, there, you got some like altitude that divide by time, and you will get what was your average speed. And I will tell you, if the peaks were like five, the average thermal was two, yeah, or maybe 2.5. Like, if it's really blasting day, it's term average thermals of three meters per second, but it's really like super good. So, so yeah, I would say it's important as you say here, in why it's a bit different story, because you catch convergence. So if you push into it before you're winning, there's some time because you're not thermaling, you're just, uh, like flying for free.
But maybe if you are flying in Colombia or in flats, then you will really have to think about it. I will tell you one story, I ended up in 2009 and the first Superfinal In Pocho Bustonia, I ended up ninth, uh, overall. And why this, uh, why, uh, result? I bought, uh, 60 30 and I bought, uh, the speed probe that was, uh, telling you your air speed, and then you could set up an, or 60 30, the polar curve, and it would tell you like which speed you should be flying, uh, at the... the weather was not very good. It was weak, uh,
and the pilots were very eager to win, so everybody was pushing a full speed bar, and I was just reading the instrument. I was saying, "This is crazy," like the instrument is saying we can't push so much. So every thermal, I would come maybe a bit, uh, later into the thermal, but I would come always higher into the thermal, and I could stay really most of the time above the leading, uh, gaggle, so it was like really good and really great discovery for me. So it works, it works. Just, uh, you have to a little bit pay attention to it. So it will depend how much speed bar on the daily average, uh, sink, uh, you're flying in headwind and stuff like this.
And this is all something that you can play, like if you draw your own polar curve and, uh, make some maths on it, it's... you will understand much better how to drain the maximum performance of your paraglider and also not to fly, uh, too fast. Yeah, there are some like misconceptions, um... What I also noticed, uh, many people goes, maybe flies a big glider, and on the club they go full bar against the wind and stuff like this to get a better glide. But if you check your polar curve, you will see that you really need a little speed bar flying against the wind.
And if you're flying a B, so it will change between the gliders, between the aspect ratio and stuff, how much speed bar you should be using. And I would say, if you really want to have a good performance, to perform good, you really need to know your glider and what you can drain out of it, you know, the maximum performance you can take
Talk about that, because I know you've, you've, you've lost a lot of listeners there, especially the folks that are getting on their first B and C. You know, explain polar curve, explain how they can utilize it, explain how they can, um, you know, enter that into their, into their systems. These days, with a lot of systems, they've made it pretty easy; you can just tell the system what wing you have and it'll enter the polars for you. But can you give some more color on just, just explain that? Because I think some people were going to be googling then, right then, when you were talking.
Well, if you're googling, then Google geogebra.org, and there you put flumen—that's the name of my school—or aprende a volar, or you can put also polar curve, and you will get like some really cool, uh, polar curves with stuff you can play with: the wind, the type of glider, and you can download it on your computer, and you can really play, and you can see the differences between the different
Uh, and it will tell you your make ready speed, uh, how much speed bar it is, and that winds. So, so, if you really want, if you're into it, this is like the most fantastic thing you will find on the internet. So, geogebra.org, and then just search flumen, or put the polar curve. Maybe if you put like triple seven rook or boomerang, it will pop out, uh, somewhere there. Cool.
I'll, I'll, uh, I'll add that to our show notes so people can see it, and I'll see you in the next one. Bye-bye. Explore that very cool, uh, a question that just came in for you, actually. I've got a little thing going on right now on Facebook. Um, any tips for, uh, saving your legs, you know, on a big long day when you're using a lot of speed? Um, do you have any, do you have any tips or strategies for pilots to not fry their, their legs pressing so much bar, uh...
Ronston ratchets, uh, like the, yeah, Ronston ratchets, uh, that's definitely, uh, like without that you just can't make it, okay? So, really good, uh, pulleys. Uh, I, I really like this Orbit Ronston ratchets, uh, you, that you can buy it also online on some websites, and it comes with some racing harnesses. It's really, really saves your legs. Well, of course, it's good also to be in good shape, yeah.
Yeah, that helps as well. Marco, you've talked about a lot of, you know, kind of the like the technical things and the school stuff, and you know, what are—what's another kind of foundational thing that you think maybe is undervalued, uh, or that people really need to be doing?
Uh, I would say the SIV courses, uh, it's not, you know, SIV courses, they, it's always like good to have, but also the way how the SIVs should be done, now with the SIVs should be done with the SIVs, the modern gliders, people think, "Oh, I made an SIV like a couple of years ago, yeah, I know how to make a full stall, whatever," but the thing is, the gliders, they changed quite a lot, really a lot. It's, it's really not, uh, something, uh, invented, the gliders behave, uh, quite differently, and there are the techniques that were taught before on the SIVs, how to do the things
Some are really outdated, some really shouldn't be done anymore, uh, and especially like a focus I would give on practicing and controlling the sat outer rotation, which with modern gliders with high aspect ratio is more and more common to happen. So before you got some collapse, it would into the spiral, you would throw the reserve and all good. But nowadays, the gliders, they like to go into the sat type outer rotation when you throw the reserve the normal way, it tangles into the lines and you have a huge problem.
And these things can be practiced and they are really easy to, to handle, uh, with, uh, with weight shifting. I, I do this, uh, on my SIV courses. And, uh, you can make this without any, like, I personally, just to show it to students, I do it completely without the brakes, going into sat with half glider closed, no brakes at all, and just going out, so they can see it can be done quite easily. And this is something I would really focus on the pilots, uh, to practice on the SIVs, because modern gliders, they really don't forgive that one.
That's great advice. What, what about, um, some of the things that should be dropped from SIV? You mentioned that, you know, a lot of the things that, you know, were kind of staples of SIV aren't really appropriate, you
know, for instance, a full stall before, uh, it was like, "Oh, you just put the hands down and you hold it, you hold it, you hold it, you hold it. Now you do this, you put the hands down, you hold it, you hold it, and you're twisted." Like, you do, you do this on Xeno, are twisted immediately. Okay, so this stuff can't be done anymore this way. So there are different ways now how to do a full stall, especially on the high aspect ratio gliders. The, the, the full stall should be done differently. It's a different technique, manner, and, uh, how we use the back fly and stuff like, like this is something completely different and, uh, should be like, I know, should be upgraded, uh, in the future on all the courses, yeah.
They, um, for those of you listening, I actually gave a talk about this when I was down at the, uh, at the pre-PWC in Zapolta Tech back in December, and I showed the videos that Charles and Seiko have been doing. They've got some great educational videos and Annecy about, you know, about the xeno and doing a lot with your bees, but also they, they, they very clearly show the kind of proper way to do that, you know, the back fly and release and, and, uh, you know, come, I would think of it more kind of like an acro full stall, uh, and instead of, you know, setting yourself up for what's almost an inevitable cravat if you just bury the hands, great, oh, fantastic. Um, the other, the other thing too, you know, some of the acro pilots we've had on the show, they talk about, you know, that if you do an SIV, you know, I say even if you're, you're good and you do an SIV once a year, which we wish everybody would do at least that many, but, um, you know, usually in an SIV you get, you might do a few stalls at the end of the last day kind of thing, and the, the acro guys are horrified by that.
You know, what, what do you, what do you encourage your students to, you know, they all talk about at least 300 stalls before you even, you know, you should even think about moving on, you should, you mean a full stall should be like launching it, should just be something you don't think about too much. Yeah.
Yeah, it's true. Uh, I fortunately can practice this, uh, a lot. Uh, and I practice it even here in why with all the gliders I get. I make like a whole session to know how it works. I tell to my students, uh, always like, the first SIV you will make, it's just an introduction, okay? You won't be able to do it if you don't have the right skills. You won't be able to do it if you don't learn much, but you will know what can happen and how your glider behaves and and stuff. You won't be confident to make some stalls, but then maybe if you do it regularly, and then after the third SIV, then you get relaxed. And if it's not like a third after five years, you know, uh, then you get much more relaxed about, uh, what you're doing and to understand.
And so people come on my SIV like they return, they change the glider, they just want a little bit refreshment, uh, a couple of toes, and uh, just that they feel comfortable with it. And at the end, everybody's doing, uh, helicos, black flies, uh, whatever, like no, no problem. What do you like? I would also say one, one important thing, maybe if some of the instructors are listening, uh, I Actually, don't know that I can teach people how to glider, so I think I'm gonna try to teach. It's, it's very good idea, yeah? So, you know, every glider that comes on the SIV, like I haven't flown, I first take it in the air and I try it before doing SIV with the student, so I know how it behaves, what I will tell him.
So, it's like something think that helps me also a little bit me to just feel the stuff and and think, but I would really recommend to the instructors, like, take the glider in the air, try it yourself, how it works, so you can give a really precise instructions to your student. Great.
Um, how do you feel about, uh, doing a bunch of SIV on, you know, on a comp glider? Is it? There was, I and I, I don't want to put him on the spot because he may have changed his view now. This was quite a few years ago, but at the, at the, uh, the World Cup here in 2012, um, Russ Ogden gave an incredible talk that, you know, we put up on YouTube and it went crazy viral, but he talked a lot about two-liners and, you know, how things had changed and how, you know, just the whole old-school hands-up in a frontal situation was potentially lethal on these newer gliders. You know, you really had to catch them. Um, so it was, it was great stuff, but when people asked him about practicing SIV, he really actually recommended that that we didn't do it on our, on our, you know, super high aspect wings, that we do it on our old beat-up B.
Um, but how do you feel about that now? Because, you know, when I look at Charles and Seiko's, uh, videos, you know, they're, I, I can't remember that, I think they were doing them on the Enzos too, but they were certainly doing them on the Xenos, but, um, you know, I, it seems like now with the kind of the new knowledge and really like, like you're talking about acro stalling instead of full stalls and, you know, utilizing backfly, um, it seems like we can really, we can and should practice, yes.
Uh, I think like, what you're flying, you, you should know how to stall it, spin it, and go out of it, like whatever thing you're flying. If you can't do that,
In situation you can't resolve, so I had, uh, recently talked with the guy and he says like, uh, it's crazy if you're flying something that you can't stall or spin, uh, and, uh, get out of it. So I think people should be doing SIVs also on their comp gliders for sure, and I can see if you open on YouTube and you search, uh, for Fabio Blanco, he's teaching there. The French team, everybody's doing, uh, everything on the comp gliders looks spectacular, and the guys just nail it, so they can fly much more relaxed because they, they have the thing in the tip of the toe. If you say so, great, great.
Perfect, speaking okay. Big transition, uh, we talked a little bit of X helps when I was down there. Do I understand correctly that you're, uh, you're gunning for it in 2019, okay?
It should have been a bit secret, but uh...
Yeah, well, that's a little bit of the idea. Um, yes, I have it for a while and, uh, I think, uh, I was listening the other day, uh, also the podcast about selection of the athletes. I think I would have the the stuff, uh, just to prepare the, uh, physically, the body, uh, for the thing. Uh, I think flying is not a problem and, uh, just to get into good shape. So, Mexico is good for, for training. We have a good terrain, quite high, so place for running that we go for run.
It's at 3,000 meters, so it's really good, good. training uh place
Excellent. Well, that's—that's a—that's super exciting. And if I can, if I can help your campaign in any way, uh, let me know. That's—you—you learn a lot going through it, of course. And it's—God, there's just so much logistics, of course, as you know. So it's—there's many little moving parts. But if I can, if I can help or assist in any way, let me know. I'm more than happy to answer questions, but it makes me smile just thinking about it. It's a lot of fun.
Thanks for this. I, I know, uh, that is one of the, like, the, the, the things about the X-Ops; it's the, the logistics, uh, like the thing behind the, the athlete, uh, and, uh, I know that's the most important thing, yeah.
That, that's that's what's, yeah, it's the the unsung heroes for sure are your your team, those the guys are really working hard. But, uh, yeah, well, well, cool. Well, that's that's exciting, that'll be that'll be really fun and watching how you fly Monarca, that I definitely have somebody to worry about there. You're an awesome pilot. Uh, well, great Marco, thank you for your time and I'll see you. So much, I really appreciate it. Uh, that's some just super valuable stuff about three liners, that's great. I think the listeners are going to really enjoy that. Uh, folks, we'll be putting up in the show notes, I'll be putting up all the links to Marco's school and the the race he's doing down in Valle and and uh all the things we were talking about, I'll make sure I put all those in the show notes, so check that out.
Uh, Marco, thanks man, I really appreciate it. Thanks for your time, thank
You, Gavin, uh, for uh, inviting me to, I must say I'm honored, uh, to to share some ideas here. I really appreciate it, uh, and I hope my tips will help someone to become a better glider. I really, I really appreciate, uh, giving, sharing here some ideas. Awesome.
Thanks, Marco, appreciate it if
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