Hey there, everybody. Welcome to episode 60 of the Cloud Base Mayhem. I can't even believe it. Unreal. Before we get into this show, which is a pretty major departure from our typical show, which I think you're going to really dig, but before we get into it, a couple items of housekeeping. One, just got back from the Monarca, 150 pilots down in Mexico and Valle. Valle always just delivers. It's such an amazing place. But I just wanted to put out a shout to Alastair Lombre and Miguel Gutierrez and Claudia and that whole team. They just do such an amazing job. So much fun was had. If you haven't been down there or you've missed a few years like a bunch of us had, make sure you go this year. They had to turn a ton of people away because there were only swats for 130.
They ended up bumping it up to 150 because so many people just begged them. So get on that for next year. It's such a great place to fly. It's an awesome place to race paragliders and it's just a fantastic learning environment. Just a reminder about reserves. There was a lot of people in the air. There weren't just the 150 of us in the comp, but all the different other gaggles and groups and stuff that go down there to train in the winter and learn and fly, which is great. But the skies were crowded with paragliders. Not crowded like you had to worry about it, but there were just a lot of people flying around and Valle can get a bit spicy. So I think every day, pretty much every day. There was at least one or two reserve tosses and as far as I know, there wasn't any injuries. Certainly nothing major.
A couple of minor ankle sprains and stuff and some tree extractions. But just a reminder of how good reserves work. So, I mean, that's a lot of reserves over the span of a week and a half and no injuries. So heads up. Just such a cool thing to see. That hopefully the word is spreading from things like this podcast and about safety and that kind of thing. But reserves really do work, obviously, with all those going down. And so like Tom Dorledo says, when in doubt, there is no doubt. You know, chuck it. If you're in doubt, get out the laundry and come on down and have a coffee at the end of the day and a beer. And you can laugh about it.
So make sure you get that stuff out. This show. Super cool. A few weeks ago, actually, just before I went to Mexico, I got an email from a gal named Lisa. And and she said, I've been listening to the show. The show got my husband into it, which meant it got me into it. And but we're total newbies. I've got 58 flights. And you always talk to these incredibly good pilots that have been around for a long time. And I'd love to just get the perspective from the gals and also get the perspective from a total newbie. And and she suggests. She suggested that, you know, she she'd been she'd flown in, I think, seven different countries and had racked up 58 flights in a year and was just super stoked. And so we said, OK, well, let's do it with you.
And this was just a total blast. It was really cool to just kind of go back in time to remember my very first flights and just the stoke and the excitement of being new. But we get into all kinds of really cool things like how she's you know, how she went about searching for an instructor. Really wants to encourage other women to get in the sport because there's so few. It's really obviously super lopsided things we've talked about before on the show. But this was just a total blast. And whether you're, you know, World Cup expert or just getting into the game, I think you're going to really dig her perspective and kind of what she's what she's gone through and what she's really enjoying and some of the tougher things.
And then also just the need for us as a community. To come up with better ways of teaching, because, you know, really, it's so dependent on who you go to and what school and the personality and male and female does matter. And so we need more female instructors in the in the game for sure. We've always known that. But I think this is just super valuable for those of you who are teaching or instructing or at the kind of the expert end of things to rewind the clock and remember what it was like. To be. To be a beginner. So this is all all for you newbies. We get a lot of requests for shows like this, you know, like, hey, I'm just getting started. And, you know, what you guys are talking about is super complicated. And I can't even imagine getting to that point.
Like, I'm still at the sledder level or taking tandems and that kind of thing. So that's what this show is all about. So please enjoy this conversation with Lisa Holt-Testra. Enjoy.
Lisa, I am psyched to talk to you. I really appreciate you reaching out. That's what this thing is all about. This is going to be a really cool conversation because we don't talk to many newbies. And as we talked about before we started recording there, you've got 58 flights and a little little self-promoting of the show. I understand that your husband got into flying because of the podcast, which means you got into flying because of the podcast. So let's start there. You're I'm talking to you in the Netherlands. We're quite a long ways apart. So it's getting into evening for you. But tell me about why you why you reached out. And a little bit about your flying career thus far.
All right. Well, thank you so much for taking the risk of having me on the show, because I know I'm in a pretty awe-inspiring company talking to you and knowing others that you've you've talked to. So it's really a privilege. And I reached out, you know, mainly because I I love paragliding. I'm a new pilot and, you know, it's been about a year and a half since I first learned. And I have noticed the last
few years that I've been doing paragliding. And I've been in a lot of different places in the world. But I really like the lack
of women in the sport. I mean, there's there's women out there, but there could be so much more. And I really would like to hopefully pique the interest of some women who might be listening. I didn't want to learn to fly. My husband got into it first and I was really resistant. I did a couple tandem flights and I was actually bored. It was like, yeah, that's fine. Or whatever. But, you know, I as much as I learn and love listening to really experienced pilots and, you know, like my wife and I, I'm really excited. and experts in the sport, every once in a while, I'm like, man, I really would like to hear somebody who's new. And am I alone in what I'm experiencing? Or is this common? So, you know, maybe my perspective can help somebody who else is new, encourage them, talk about some of the challenges that I face getting into the sport as a woman, different things that I would recommend to somebody who's getting in and really just kind of be an advocate for women who want to fly.
Yeah.
Awesome. Well, let's, let's get into it. Tell me about your most memorable flight so far. I bet you've had, I bet you've had a few.
I have had a few, although the one that stands out happened in Italy in September and it was number, I don't know, 30 some, maybe 40. I got to thermal for the first time and I was watching another pilot. I see him, you know, circling. I am like, I'm going to go try that, you know? So I go over there and next thing I know, sure enough, I'm turning in this thermal. I'm, you know, getting higher and higher and I'm like, this is awesome. I'm like a bird. So super cool. I outflew my husband for the first time and you know, he's down at the LZ and I'm still up here. I'm like, this is, um, the next day, my second day, it was, it was perfect conditions for thermaling the site. It was just textbook. It was like right there.
There's where the thermals are going to be right there, you know? And so I'm having this grand old time, you know, practicing. And feeling my wing bump into the thermals, turn into them, all this stuff, but it's a little bumpy. And, um, next thing I know, I say to myself, oh man, um, my stomach's feeling a little off and I'm like, surely this can't happen. Right. I know I got sick when I was a passenger, but as a pilot, you know, it's like getting car sick. You don't get car sick when you are the driver. So I was certain that I was not going to get sick as a pilot. So, um, my husband and I had been thermaling together. We're having a great time. Just take off my radio, quit transmitting. So I couldn't tell him what's going on. So I just fly out over the Valley. I'm like, okay, all is well, but all was not well, my stomach.
I'm like, oh, great. You know, I'm going to be sick. And then I'm like, what am I going to do? So I wear a full face helmet, so I can't just puke off the side. Right. And so I'm thinking to myself, okay, here's, here's where the rubber meets the road. Lisa, you've got to solve this problem. Nobody's here to help you. You've got to figure this out. So I think through, I'm like, okay, I've read stories where people do, I mean, they swallow their own vomit. I mean, they, they hold it in if they have to. So I'm thinking all this through and I'm like, okay, this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to be, I'm, I'm going to be this. I, I, there's no, I have no other choice. Right. I don't want to throw up all over myself. It's gross. So I make this decision because I couldn't, I couldn't think, you know, I was like, I can't take gloves on. I can't take my helmet off. Like what would I do with it? All this stuff.
So I throw up in my mouth.
Hold it in.
And I, I'm like, okay, here goes eggs and coffee. Second time around. And I take a big gulp and I just swallow it back down.
And I just had eggs
and coffee. That sounds terrible.
I'm sorry. I know this is really gross. I should have warned your listeners that this, if you have a sensitive stomach, you don't want to listen to this story. But then I get down to the LZ and I have one of the most beautiful landings ever. I land down there and I just stop. And I look down at myself and I'm like, man, I did it. I have little tiny bit, you know, a little bit on my coat, but like, holy shit, I just threw up and I just swallowed it and I just landed and I was throttling. This was amazing. And so I get down there and again, my husband's calling down on the radio. I try to tell him I'm safe. I'm down. My radio is not transmitting. So then some other guys flying with us, he lands and you know, my husband's like, are you coming back up to launch? And I said, uh, no, I didn't want to announce over the radio.
It just happened. So I just said, yeah, no, I'm done flying for the day. I'm good. Meet you down here. And you know, a couple other people land and stuff. I just kind of sit off to the side and collect myself. And then finally my husband comes back down and I tell him the story and he's like, you did what?
And so I have to say, Gavin, I, this was classic. Look, I had a problem. I kept my, you know, classic
paragliding. You're solving it. Yeah. You're taking care of business.
Second time thermaling and just beautiful conditions and, you know, picture perfect landing and, you know, solved a few problems between, uh, that,
uh, that isn't totally unique. I didn't think that happened to people, uh, flying solo. Uh, you know, that was, it was, you know, typically it's very, it's something almost all pilots experience on tandem, you know, that you just, you, you can handle it for 20, 30 minutes and then that's it. You know, even if you've got a pretty, solid stomach and, uh, not everybody, but most people do get sick on Tana, but solo it's, it's super rare, but it does happen.
Anyway, certain things that, you know, you don't, you don't usually hear about in this, on that side of the sport, but that's
a good one. Cool. Um, so your, your husband learned, where did he learn? And then what was the, what was the conversation there? Like, Hey, you've got to do this or, I don't know, or, you know, um, cause I, you know, in my own experience, I, I see a lot of, a lot of guys, you know, that would, like you said, the numbers are way skewed. I just got back from this comp in Mexico, or there was 150 pilots in the comp. And I think there were five or six women. Sorry if I got that wrong, but it's, it's something like that. It's way less than 10%. And, uh, and you know, I, I've often thought about, you know, there's, there are a lot of those guys would be so psyched to have their, you know, the women in their lives fly, but I'm kind of psyched that my girlfriend doesn't fly because you know, it, let's face it is a little bit dangerous. I've taken her for a couple of tandems and luckily she thought it was pretty boring as well, but yeah.
So what was the, what was the catalyst there? What was the convincing factor that got you into it?
Yeah. So, I mean, we, my husband and I were living in Saudi Arabia at the time when he first listened to the dirt bag diaries episode that you and Will Gadd did sharing about your vol biv experience across the Canadian Rockies. And he just was beside himself and he starts talking about this paragliding and vol biv and I just pretty much tuned them out. And we, you know, we do adventure sports together. We rock climb together, we sail, you know, we do Alpine stuff. So we do all this stuff and I'm like, we do enough, right? We, whatever, whatever, you know? So it was in the spring of 2015, we were headed back to the States for a few weeks and we were going to spend a week with my family in Eastern Pennsylvania, which you would think is not a good place to learn to paraglide.
But my husband as determined as he was found an instructor like 45 minutes from where my parents live. So even though the season was really early, he kind of had to talk this guy into taking him on as a student because he wasn't, you know, a great time of year, but he was determined. So it was toe up, you know, flights and fairly difficult conditions to learn. And I'm watching and one of the flights very early on, I don't know, maybe my husband's fourth or fifth flight, he has this asymmetrical collapse. He's not very, you know, high, he comes in, lands hard on his side and he's really shaken up and he's ready to quit at this point in time.
And I don't know, maybe I'm not the typical wife in this because I said, look, you want to do this. You said you want to do this. You said it's worth the investment of this money. Get back out there and do it.
That's awesome. You're not the typical wife. I love it.
So, so, you know, that was kind of his start. And then a couple of weeks, well, like the following week, we were out in British Columbia with his family. He meets up with another instructor out there, takes some more lessons. I did my first tandem plate. It was a sledder. It was kind of like, yeah, that's kind of fun. Okay, whatever. And then a couple months later, we were in Ancy in France and John is continuing to take some lessons because his instruction was not the greatest along the way. And this is part of what I observed. You know, as his wife, I'm thinking, in fact, I asked one of the instructors, is he safe? Is he okay? Because I think he doesn't know as much as he should. And they're like, no, no, he's going to be okay.
He's going to be okay. So then I did my second tandem plate there. And I mean, it's just gorgeous, right? It's the Alps. It's amazing. It's spectacular. We're doing evening flight. And so there's just lifting air everywhere around. But honestly, I'm looking around. I'm like, yeah, it's pretty okay. But I'm, I'm kind of like, okay, whatever. And then my instructor, the pilot has to get down and to the LZ to help some other students land. And he's saying something to me. And he, he, I don't speak, I speak a little bit of French, but he's talking to me in English, but with this thick French accent, and I am not entirely sure what he's asking me. And just about the time that I realized he's asking me if I get car sick, he puts us in a spiral or, you know, and starts,
to get to, I have no idea what's happening. We have a GoPro on, of course, because I'm, you know, and I start feeling miserable. And then he stops and he's like, are you okay? And I was like, um, not really. And then he, you know, other direction. Oh, she must be fine. She's not
saying anything.
I, I got sick. So I throw up on this flight. We have it on GoPro. I mean, it was absolutely miserable. So this is sort of my introduction to paragliding and a couple, you know, John continues to fly, loves it. And the following year we're back in Ansi and I'm kind of just bored out of my mind, right? Watching him fly, but him finally, you know, giving in, okay, he's going to really want to do this. And we got a hotel on the opposite side of the lake from, you know, where everybody's flying. And I'm, so I'm sitting on my balcony overlooking this gorgeous lake. Watching everybody fly. And there's this whole gaggle of pilots up above Plen FAI.
And I'm watching and I'm watching. And all of a sudden I see two paragliders break out of the gaggle and they start their, you know, cross going across the lake. And I looked at it and I was like, oh, that would be kind of fun to do with John. Yeah, having a little adventure. That's when, I started to actually seriously look into it myself.
But, you know, some of my hesitation, Gavin, was I wasn't impressed with the instruction that I'd seen my husband receive. And I realized that with this sport, I had to make sure I really knew what I was doing because I couldn't rely on John. And so many of the other adventure sports we do together, if we're rock climbing and I get into a tight spot, he can help me. And I knew as a paraglider, I had to figure out how to do it myself. He wasn't going to be the
guy that was going to help you.
Right. Because
he didn't know what he didn't know.
Right. And, and so I started just Googling women in paragliding and I was reading some forums. And most of what I found was men talking about it was, there was very few women talking about it. But in general, the theme was, yeah, we need more women in the sport. You know, the men in the sport were saying we need this. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and a woman, uh, a woman's name came up who was an instructor in Colorado and we were going to be back in the States. And so I ended up reaching out to her and telling her kind of my perspective on things. And she said, please come out, you know? And so I spent two weeks, uh, getting my P2 certification in Colorado and, um, was really happy to have, uh, a female instructor.
And there was actually two instructors there that week. So I had the perspective of a woman. And a man. And it was really valuable having, you know, different perspectives and, you know, just a different way of coming at all the different parts of, of learning to fly. Let's, do you
mind, can we break that down a little bit? What, what was different? What was better? What was worse? You don't have to name any names if you don't want to, but it sounds like you got, you know, some valuable information from both of them.
Yeah. So I think some of the things that really stand out from the female, the female instructor that I worked with was especially when I was learning how to ground handle and using my center of gravity, because I mean, women are built different than men. Our center of gravity is lower. Our strength is different. And, you know, just learning to really weight my harness from, you know, the beginning and learning how to ground handle, you know? So, so that was one of the things that, that stood out to me. And one of the other things that stood out even early on was paying attention to the weather and noticing the risk level. Of the woman versus the man. And, you
know, They had more risk awareness or more, they were more, more fearful in general.
No, I, and I would say just a little bit, and, and I don't know, maybe this is on, you know, not fair for the, the, the man, because he was, he was actually from Washington state and he was just in, um, visiting and, and assisting for a couple of weeks. So, she definitely knows the area and the weather better. And she kind of looked around and said, oh, we better, we better go in right now. It's probably not a good time to be ground handling might be gusty in a little while. And she was actually in the harness showing me and got drug a little bit because big gust comes whipping along. And she said, afterwards, she said, I knew I shouldn't be out there, but you know, here's, you know, my colleague, my friend he's in, he's saying, oh, now's a good time to go out and do a little ground handling. And it was, it was actually a really good lesson.
And for me to say, Hey, you know what? I need to listen to myself when I'm out there. I need to great. I mean, that's the,
just the classic peer pressure thing. You know, there's so much lemming flying and flying. That's, that's, that's a great initial lesson.
Yeah. And actually just over Christmas, we were in Morocco flying and I had, I had this exact experience happen where my husband had taken off and one of the other guys we were flying with had taken off. And the guide was telling me, take off Lisa, it's fine. And I'm looking at it and I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, at the clouds and I'm saying, it's going to be really gusty in a few minutes. And he's saying, no, no, no, no, no, it's fine. It's fine. Just go, go, go. And I said, no, I'm not going. I'm not comfortable going right now. And sure enough, in a few minutes, I mean, the gusts come in and it's crazy. And, you know, I just packed my wing. I said, I'm not, I'm not going. And I was so proud of myself for saying that because then in another 20 minutes, the gust front passed and it was beautiful and I had a nice flight, but you know, I kind of linked that back to my early experience with the instructors of saying, listen to yourself, don't doubt yourself, pay attention to what you know, and, um, and go with it.
Right. Don't listen to somebody else who's telling you to fly when you don't feel comfortable to fly.
What, what, what was it like? I want to come back to that. Cause that sounds like you've got a lot more to share there, but what was it like kind of, you know, you're okay. Your, your husband's maybe a little bit ahead of you. He's got an extra year or something, but what was it like kind of learning together? Was that tricky, easy? Um, you know, what, what were you comparing notes or was it kind of, you know, I've, I've often heard that, that I've, I've just never tried it, that, you know, that when you're, it can be quite tricky to teach your significant other something. Did you guys just decide you just make, made a decision that, Hey, we're not going to teach each other. We're going to learn from instructors.
So sort of, um, most of the adventure sports that we've done together, my husband and has, has had more experience. So he's often teaching me and, and he's a good teacher. And most of the time I'm an okay student, not all the time, but most of the time. And so it, it's been a new experience for us learning to paraglide together. And it was interesting for John, he sat in on, you know, some of the lectures and he was listening in on my instructors when, when he was, when I was learning and he really appreciated kind of hearing things. And I was like, Oh, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this again and hearing things from a different perspective. And then we would talk about it together.
So I realized at that point, Oh, we're pretty much on the same page, even though he has, you know, a little bit more experience than I do. And yeah, it's been, it's been nice. And, and again, for, for me, one of the major differences with paragliding is I have to make the decisions for myself. And, and this is one of the, this has been one of the surprises for me. And I think it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, about how much I enjoy having that independence and it's increased my confidence in myself and my abilities, my ability to make those decisions out in the mountains and paying attention to the weather. And, and that's been really empowering for me.
And I really, really enjoyed that aspect of it.
Why, why are there fewer women?
Well, that's a good question. I should, I I'd love to, I'd love to hear your answer to that question. What, I mean, you've been doing this for a lot longer than I have.
You know, I, we asked, I asked Isabella about that, who is going to be more articulate than I am. You know, I, I think that, I think some of it is some of it's just the overwhelming male dominance in the sport. And, and you know, even if you're a really powerful uh, independent woman, it can just, it can just be intimidating. And, you know, I think, I think guys mean the best when they, you know, try to give a helping hand. But I think a lot of times it's like, God, get away. I got this, you know, and, and, and let me, let me tackle this on my own. So I think, I think part of it's intimidation. I think part of it is definitely, uh, I think women and men see or
experience risk differently. Um, and I think, I think for, for many that get into it, it's pretty fun. And then they have that, you know, scary moment, which all pilots are going to have multiple times in their flying career. Um, I think maybe the attrition is higher from the women's side. I, I don't know that. I don't know if there's any statistics on that. Um, but yeah, I, you know, I don't know because the hands down, you know, Lori Genovese and I might be butchering her last name. She just got six at the Superfinal, you know? So there's, there's a lot of, there's a lot of, there's a lot of definitely at the comp end of things. There's, you know, typically women are smaller and bigger wings fly faster. So, you know, they, they are disadvantaged, uh, by being smaller a little bit, but otherwise there's really no advantage.
There's no physical advantage, certainly to fly. I was just down in Mexico, uh, this gal Patty and another girl, Bianca just crushed it. And, and they're both pretty small. And so, um, you know, I, I, that, that, the size thing can, can, can be overcome to an extent by just making good decisions and being a good pilot and training hard. And, you know, so there's no real, it's a bit baffling really, because there's no real advantage to being bigger or stronger in this sport. It's, it's tactical, it's strategy. It's, you know, there's not, there's not a huge physical aspect to the flying side of it. There is to the Vivi side and that kind of thing. But, um, yeah, I, I mean, I don't know.
Yeah. Well, and that's one of the aspects that I like about it because it doesn't involve, you know, brute strength because men are always going to be, you know, stronger in general than women. And when I, you know, go running with my husband or go cycling with him, he's always going to be, you know, waiting for me and he's always faster and can go farther and go longer. And it's nice to be in a sport together where I, it, it doesn't rely on, you know, my physical strength. It is more that tactical. Um, so that's, that's a nice aspect of it. When I talked to, I tried to convince a few of my friends to consider it.
And some of it, I, I wonder if it's some misperceptions. Um, I w I didn't, I didn't grow up in the world of adventure sports. And when I was two 2005, so how many years 13 years ago my first husband died I was 28 and that was a major transition in my own life and before that I had been outdoorsy I grew up with horses and I was really involved in horseback riding and things but I hadn't really been involved in you know adventure sports or a lot of outdoor physical activities and after his death a kind of part of my healing journey was pursuing physical exercise and pushing myself and adventuring and I found a lot of I guess solace and healing in pushing myself physically where before with this experience with my husband being ill and dying it was all emotional and so I you know late 20s early 30s kind of got into this world of outdoor sports and rock climbing and hiking and camping
and now I mean I was 39 I guess when I was learning to to fly and or I guess 40 even so yeah I'm learning to fly at 40 and you know I guess some people think well you know if you don't learn it early in life it's too late right and that's one of the other beautiful things about paragliding is you can learn it at any point in time and you can continue you know if you're safe I want to be an old pilot right I don't want to be one of the bold pilots I want to be an old pilot this is something that can continue for you know 20 30 years as I age and that's a nice aspect of it some of my friends think oh you have to jump off a mountain I could never jump off a mountain and so I try to tell them it's actually I you don't well I mean you can go places where you have to jump off a mountain right but most of the time you
know just a nice little incline and you start running and next thing you know your feet are off the ground it's amazing it's really gentle and gradual most of the places that you can fly especially as a beginner and you know just helping people see it's it doesn't have to be this big oh jump off a mountain uh experience and I think you know as a as a woman I'm not I noticed some of the difference between my husband's goals for himself and he immediately he wants to get high he wants to fly high he wants to fly xc he wants to and I look at it and I say someday
once I have the experience that would be really enjoyable but until I have the experience until I feel really confident in myself I'm okay with sled rides and I'm okay with you know some nice easy ridge soaring and you know well this last fall I got to experience some thermaling for the first time and that was cool you know and just really looking at it step by step and it doesn't have to be I've got to get as high as possible and as far as possible as soon as possible if that makes sense how
do you how would you encourage um women to to get into the like how what was the what was the hook you know you had these kind of dismal not maybe not dismal but you had a boring tandem you had a tandem where you puked all over yourself uh you know obviously if you hadn't had your husband into it that would have been it but um when was it that you went whoa this is incredible I gotta I gotta do this my
first flight my first training flight and my first training so at my training site it was all hike and fly I had to hike my wing up the hill every single one of my training flights um and my very first flight I had an instructor at the launch and I had an instructor at the LZ and right before we take off we do a radio check everything's working fine and they had done a really good job of talking me through everything so I knew you know they're like when you take off you're gonna stay out of your harness for a while don't get in your harness right away wait longer than you think you should all this stuff so I take off and I'm flying and I look down and there's three or four deer down grazing on the hillside and they look up at me and I'm like oh that's
and I'm not hearing any instruction at all on my radio and all of a sudden I think hmm I think I should probably get in my harness so I get myself in my harness and I I'm drifting off to the right the LZ's over to the left I'm drifting toward this lake little do I know my instructors are freaking out because the radio had quit working and they're why isn't
she turning left
why isn't she turning left yeah and so I steer myself back around and I'm like oh my god I'm over to the LZ and I yell down to the instructor I'm like I got nothing on the radio and she runs over and you know talks me through my landing but I landed and I was like I just did my first flight completely solo I'm awesome that was amazing and for me it was just like I didn't know how I'd react when I was flying by myself but I loved it it was like that moment it was like okay this is awesome and how badass that I did my first flight with no instruction yeah I
think that's uh it's one of the things we talk about all the time after you get thousands and thousands of flights even it's uh that first one's always in some ways the most special it's the one you chase for the rest of your career is just that whole like oh my god are you serious the absurdity is just through the roof uh and it's still absurd I mean even now it's every time I step off it's still totally absurd let's get back to how how you're navigating the instructional space because you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're it sounds like you know before we started recording you were talking about that a bit that it's been tricky you know one of the things that um we're trying to figure out and by we I mean the community is that it's it's it's not like it's a franchise this isn't mcdonald's how you learn how to paraglide you know I mean it's just totally dependent on the instructor and the country and the rating system and you know there's just the variables are massive and there's a lot of just frankly bad instructing going on out there and there's a lot of really good instructing but it's
just it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just
it takes some effort to find it and to make sure you know and when you're new you don't know what to look for so what what were the things take me through that a little bit what were the things that you decided you know and seeing your husband kind of learn uh and then when you just you had that you had this first flight you know taken from there so
I mean for me it was I I really wanted to make sure that I was getting instruction that I could understand I have a hard time grasping the the physics of understanding the wing and why it flies and why it doesn't and understanding what the wings coming from this way you know the wind and that is not easy for me to grasp and it's much more intuitive for my husband and so for me I wanted to make sure that I I really understood as much as possible and I and I've had to come to terms with the fact that I have to hear it multiple times I have to read it I have to read it and I've had to come to terms with it multiple times to play around with it. I have to visualize it in my own mind.
And then, you know, it's kind of understanding the way I learn and then finding, you know, an instructor that will recognize how I learn and respect how I learn. Because as an adult, we get to make that choice, right? As kids, when we're in school, we don't get to choose our teacher. But as an adult, I get to choose, you know, my instructor. And I think that's really crucial that we find somebody that communicates in a way that works with the way our brain learns, if that makes sense.
Totally. Is that, in your experience, did you find that in your female Colorado instructor? Have you found that it's just, it seems to be better with other females or not really?
Well, and that's a good question because I haven't interacted with other women instructors since then. Since I arrived in the Netherlands, we moved to Europe in October of 2016. And I thought, great. We just learned to fly. And now we moved to the flattest country in Europe. Is this a joke or what?
But there's a dune soaring community here and a community of paragliders and the beach. I mean, I was kiting on the beach for three hours earlier today. It was awesome. And I met up with an instructor here. And the first day I went out and I said, well, I'll just see how it goes and, you know, pay him for a lesson. And I was blown away with how much I learned just about ground handling and immediately signed up, you know, for his whole course to learn. And so since being here in the Netherlands, I've spent so much time ground handling and really understanding how my wing responds. And I know you, you've had whole episodes, which I've loved on ground handling. And for me, as, as a new pilot and learning, you know, as I, as I progress, you know, in this very beginning of my career, I'm realizing how significant it is that I just happened to land at a place where I have ground handling, you know, Jedis to learn from.
And they're amazing. These guys that fly the dunes and some women as well. My, and my, my first instructors were really good. We didn't have great conditions for ground handling. I mean, we did the best we could. But they were really good about saying, look, consider it two separate sports, ground handling and flying. And that's something that has really stayed with me. And, and I really focused on developing here because we have just great conditions to practice kiting and ground handling. And I am so much more confident now when I go to a mountain site and I go to launch because I know what my wing's going to do with the wing, you know, the wind catches it over here and I know how to kite my wing so much better. It's not just, it's a crapshoot when I go to take off.
I'm like, well, I hope it comes up and does what it's supposed to do.
So the ground handling I think is huge in my mind for learning and becoming a confident young pilot.
If you, Sally, you've flown in seven countries, which is pretty extraordinary for someone with 58 flights. If you could kind of rewind the clock, where would you go? Where, where would you, you know, if you could go, I mean, if I, if in a perfect, perfect world, where would you go to, to learn if you could do it again?
Oh man, that's a really good question. And I've actually, I've thought about that. And I, I mean, I guess it depends because it's a, it's a combination of the instruction you can get and the conditions, right? So there's a part of me and I, I, I've flown in Ansi, you know, which is just one of the most epic places to fly in the world, I think. And, and yet I've seen, you know, some instructors there. Of course, I'm not, there's the instructors coming from all around the world, but my husband was able to get instruction in French. And I'm like, I'm not going to be able to comprehend enough. And I don't want, you know, somebody giving me instruction in, you know, English that I can half understand. So it was really important communication, even though the conditions there
are fantastic for learning. And I, and I think, you know, when I, when I think about other pilots learning, what would I recommend? I'd recommend find a spot where you can go and, and spend, you know, two to three weeks learning at first, you know, where you can do it every day, conditions permitting versus just showing up once a month and, you know, getting bits and pieces. So if at all possible to take that bulk of time early on, but, you know, it's funny, Gavin, because learning here in the Netherlands, and it's kind of counterintuitive to say learning on the beach, learning on the dunes, this is probably one of the best places to learn to fly because of, of the solid ground handling experience that you get. Yeah,
that's, that's the case anywhere in the world. I would highly, highly, highly recommend that you should spend months doing that, you know, because you're going to learn. We've talked about this ad infinitum on the show, but it's, you just get so much more out of ground handling than flying, you know, flying is easy. It's getting off the landing. That's hard.
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I, we were just in Morocco over the holidays and the local pilots there, we're amazing to watch. And we learned that, I mean, first of all, they don't have the money to buy their own wings. So they're, you know, borrowing from somebody, but as kids, they learned to fly a piece of plastic and just ground handle a piece of plastic with some strings attached. And most of them just ground handle for two or three years before they ever fly. And they're ridiculously good when you see them flying and the different conditions that they're kiting in and maintaining it just, again, it reinforced in my mind, the ground handling is, it's just, it can't be overemphasized how much that contributes to, to flying.
I'd like to talk about you and your husband, you know, and kind of going through this process together. Are you guys worried for each other? Is it scary? You know, how, how are you tackling kind of the risk end of things?
Well, you already heard my worry for him when he almost crashed in his fourth flight. And I'm like, get back out there and do it again. You know, I, I trust my husband to, you know, he's a smart guy and he's, you know, able to take care of himself. I think he worries more about me. And one of the things that I've noticed as I've progressed and, and gained my own experience, if he's not flying, when I'm in the air, he likes to be on the radio telling me,
that
must be really annoying.
And well, you know, the, the intention is good, right? Sure. That he's going to say, oh, I'll never talk to you on the radio. And it's not that I don't want him to, cause, cause if there's something I'm missing, I absolutely want him to be on the radio to me. But on the other hand, and he actually asked me fairly recently, he's like, do you want me to worry about you when you're up there? I just told him, I said, no, I, I, we need to be independent when we fly. And obviously there's care and concern and, you know, we want each other to be safe, but he, he told me after I started to fly that I made up my mind. I'm like, I'm not going to fly. I'm not going to fly. I'm not going to fly. I made him a safer pilot because I, I would say, oh, no, no, it's, you know, I'd rather, I want to wait. I don't want to take off right now on a white and see what the winds are doing. And it looks a little bit sketchy and that would cause him to pause.
Whereas before, if I wasn't flying, he'd just be like, I gotta fly, you know, go for it no matter what the conditions. So by starting to fly, I, he has said I've made him a safer pilot. And so I think that's a really positive thing. And, and again, learning, I guess, you know, for me, it's just, it's really significant that I, I make my own decisions and there's times where he has chosen to fly. And I say, yeah, it's a little too strong for me. I'm going to sit it out, you know? And just to be perfectly okay with that. So I think that's part of the balance in the safety and the risk-taking as
well. What do you think about, what would you say to the guys listening to the show that would love to see their significant other fly? I think a lot of us have hesitation about that for sure. But, you know, what, what have you found in flying or, you know, we talked about this before a little bit that you'd really like to encourage women to fly because it's, it's so amazing. And you've been able to navigate that space, even though it's different. You know, what, what, what would be your call to arms?
Tell their girlfriends, wives, partners, whoever, tell them to call me, tell them to talk to me. To other women, you know, it's been so inspiring to meet other women. And I, you know, you've had several women on the, the podcast as well. I really enjoy hearing their perspectives. And, you know, early on we met a couple in California that fly and she was just learning and her husband was more advanced and things. And, and, you know, her perspective, she really, she enjoys going and flying tandem with her husband. And now that they're both pilots, you know, they both can take turns, you know, flying. He can be, you know, fly in the wing and, you know, they can do that together.
I, I, I want to fly my own wing. So that's not for me, but that's also a possibility after you become a pilot, maybe you want to fly tandem together. And that's another way to enjoy it. So, you know, my friend and her husband really seemed to enjoy getting out and flying tandem together. That's something else, but, but for, for us as women, the opportunity to talk to other women, I think is, is so important because our perspective is unique and different. And, and, and so I would really say, you know, somehow, if you want your girlfriend or your wife or whoever to consider flying, figure out a way for her to talk to other women who fly. And I'm more than happy to talk to anybody who's considering, considering it.
And what, what should we, that's great. And what, what should we look for in helping them find a good instructor?
I think, well, I'd love if there were more female instructors out there. Um, I have no idea what the, do you have any idea what the numbers are? I mean, just even in the States.
Clue there. I mean, they exist for sure. You know, Rob Sporer out at Eagles. Uh, he used to have a couple, I'm not sure if they're still there. Uh, I know that one of them had a pretty tragic accident, but I think there's someone at the point, but I'm not sure that, I mean, there's not many, but they are, they, they do. Exist for sure. And they for sure exist in Europe just cause it's a numbers game. You know, I don't know them personally, but, uh, you know, for sure there's, there's gotta be not tons, but there's gotta be many.
Yeah. I think number one, you know, just kind of understanding how, how, how are you going to learn best, you know? Um, and then, and then talking to instructors beforehand, I mean, I basically interviewed, you know, my instructor before I decided to take lessons with her. I wanted to get a feel for her perspective and did she understand where I was coming from and my concerns. So, you know, to say, Hey, I'm going to, I'm going to take this seriously. I'm going to, I'm going to talk to a few instructors, you know, send some emails and just start the conversation and see where it goes and get on the phone with a few instructors. Cause you can kind of tell a lot just from, you know, a bit of a conversation, whether you're going to click with someone or not. And I think it's really important to find someone that you click with another woman, pilot.
I ran into, I mean, she started her lessons with the pipe with an instructor and he just tended to be really rough and, you know, yelled at her about different things. And she just quit. She said, I'm done. I have no desire to learn this way. And it took her, her husband was a pilot and he finally talked her into taking a second chance. And she found a different instructor and now she loves it. So it's not working
switch, switch gears. Absolutely. Yeah,
absolutely. And, you know, one of the other things I think that's so important, you know, for women considering is knowing that the wings are so safe and I have an a wing and I fly an a wing. I fly the BGD Adam wing. And I love that Bruce Goldsmith designed this for his 14 year old son because he wanted his son to be safe flying. And you know what? My first priority as a beginner is to be safe and it's not high performance. And it's not distance and it's not how high I get. And I think, you know, it's tough because, you know, there's a lot of energy around, you know, flying high and far and all this stuff. And of course I want to do that eventually, but, you know, I had somebody say, just get your first hundred flights in, just launch and land, launch and land, get comfortable with it.
And to know that, you know, I'm on an a wing, it is so forgiving. That thing wants to fly. I'm going to have to do something extremely drastic. You know, to stall this wing, to crash, that's really comforting to me as well. And, and I kind of went back and forth, well, do I get an ENB or, you know, do I want something with a little higher performance? And I just, the guy that I bought the wing from just came back to just get your first hundred flights in on this wing. It's gonna be the safest wing out there. You know, you're not going to regret having a super safe wing. And, and I think that's something else to keep in mind. I
think that's something else to keep in mind. That, you know, moving up too fast is a snake in the grass. You know, you're just asking for trouble. That's, that's great. Be conservative there. There's no reason not to, there's no rush. You know, like you said that I got into flying when I was 36, you know, we can, we can do really well later in life. That's what's so brilliant about the sport. It's not, you know, it's, it's, it's not football. Awesome. What about, what about like, okay, so you've flown Montmain and Plan Faye, two of the busiest launches, maybe in the world. Uh, you know, fantasy is just amazing. What can you tell the listeners of the audience about how to, I don't know, behave around women? Is it, is it, has it been an inviting space? Is it, cause I, I mean, I, we all want more women in the sport.
There's no guy in paragliding that doesn't want more women in the sport. We get, I can just tell you, we get really psyched when we see you guys come to launch. And so it's not, it's not a lack of desire. Um, but Isabella brought up some good points about, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, how that environment in a really, in a really busy launch can be, I don't know, it's a, it's a space that's difficult to navigate. Do you open the car door? Do you not these days? You know what I mean? It's, uh, you know, you guys are independent, powerful women just automatically cause you're in the sport. And, uh, I don't know, comment on that.
Yeah, I think, oh man, I mean, it's, it's tricky. I, I love, it's really affirming to hear you say that, Hey, we want more women in this sport. You know, guys want more women. That's really affirming. And I think just hearing you say that as part, part of it, that's like, wow, that's really, that's really encouraging to hear. And I hope other women, you know, are also encouraged about that. Um, it's intimidating flying where there's a lot of really experienced pilots. And I think one of the benefits of my time flying, in, um, ANSI is seeing so many women there because it's much more common there.
I mean, it's a third of the pilots, you know, taking off Vermont men are, are women. And so that has been, um, really encouraging to me. A lot of the other places I go, I might be the only female pilot, or maybe there's one other. Um, and so I think just being, you know, encouraging, I think we have, we have, we have, we have, we have, we have, we have, we have, we have, we have, one of the surprises that I've found in this sport too, is just the community, which I find amazing. And we have met super experienced pilots. Um, in December, we were flying in Spain, met up with these two British guys who've been flying for 30 some years, you know, hang glider pilots, and now they paraglide and just, I mean, phenomenal pilots.
And they kind of took us under their wing and they'd been to these sites, billion times. And so they kind of, you know, gave us a briefing of the launch sites and things to watch for, and just really took their time in, in sharing their knowledge with us. And we've experienced that over and over. So the men that I'm running into, particularly the ones that are a little bit older and have been in the sport for a while have been really encouraging. And I'm up front about, Hey, I'm a beginner, you know, I've got whatever, how many flights I do, you know, and I'm not out to prove something. And, you know, so I have found it to be a pretty welcoming community. And that's been, that's been really nice.
I think it's, it's something that we comment on all the time. We certainly did a lot in this last trip down to Mexico. And then the trip before that to Mexico, the other comp in December down in Zapotec is just the, the community is really awesome. It's, it's really special because we've all, everybody's got each other's back and, uh, you know, we've all seen way too much tragedy, and so we're, we're concerned for everybody. And that's, uh, that's, that's awesome. And I think it's, it's also really incredible how much sharing is going on and nobody hides their tricks. You know, they're, they're all out in plain sight. If you ask a question of any pilot, I've never heard of anybody not take the time to give you the answer, you know, even if it means getting a late start at a comp or whatever, it's, it's, I think it's all kind of an, it's almost like obligatory and it's, it's, it builds up.
It builds a really special community.
Yeah, it really does. I agree with that. And it's interesting because when I was observing my husband learn some of the, you know, I would say, man, there's so much ego, you know, I just see so much ego in the sport, but as I've gotten into myself and as I've gotten to know other pilots and especially the older pilots who have so much experience and knowledge and wisdom, it's, it's just, it's a very generous community. And obviously you can find the ego and everything as well. But I have really been impressed with the generosity of the community.
Let's break the ego thing down more. Were you finding that from the instructor side or just, just generally in the community or just, you know, at the LZ? A
little bit of both, a little bit in some of the instructor side.
When my, my, my husband had his first asymmetrical collapse and almost crashed the instructor. He says over the radio, John, you're freaking me out. And that is not what I want to hear from an instructor. You know, I need the instructor to be calm and confident. And then also just, you know, a little bit of, you know, one of the other instructors, you know, kind of putting down some of the instruction that, you know, my husband received like, oh, that wasn't good. And, you know, you know, just kind of that a little bit competitive vibe and putting down somebody else had taught him or how they taught him. And, and to me, that's not helpful. You know, if someone has learned something incorrectly and then, then be helpful and help them learn it correctly versus, you know, put down somebody else that you haven't met or, or things like that,
you know, that, that kind of was a, was a turnoff for me in, in watching those interactions and stuff. It's
a tricky thing, isn't it? Because you've got to, you know, I hadn't thought of this in years, but my very... My very first solo flight, maybe it wasn't my first, first, but it was right up there. I was up at Tiger. I'd had, I'd had the same experience that you did. I did a couple of tandems and I was like, yawn, holy cow, this is boring. And, and then my very, it might've been my first, I can't remember, but anyway, I think I was flying a different harness. It was, you know, it wasn't a pod for sure. It was a seat harness, but I had this, this new instructor and he was just going to be on the radio. Like, okay. So I, maybe I'd, I'd had my, some kind of sign off or something, but anyway, I, when I launched, I, I just brain farted and I couldn't figure out how to get in my harness.
You know, I was just kind of hanging out of it and to get into it, I started pulling my brakes, you know, like rather than, you know, rather than using my foot strap or grabbing the whole risers, I started pulling on the brakes and he just started screaming at me on the radio, stop, stop, stop, stop. And I didn't know what, like, stop,
stop, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop,
stop. What? Stop flying, stop turning right. Like I had no idea what, you know, and I, I damn near stalled the wing and would have gone in and, you know, eventually I realized, whoa, I'm pitching way back here. And, you know, I just, for whatever reason, I just had a totally spaced out moment and, um, you know, decided that day. And my, my buddy who had arranged the instruction was on launch and saw the whole thing. And when I landed, he was like, we're not going with him. That's it. You know, like he just totally panicked. And, uh, but you know, how do you know that they're going to react that, that way? He had been an instructor for years and, uh, you know, it was just one of those things that he didn't anticipate. He was paying attention to this cute girl on launch. You know, he wasn't really watching and he looked up and he saw me nearly stalling.
And, um, but yeah, it's hard. I mean, how do you find, how do you know that they're going to behave correctly? Like your guy, you know, that was really stupid. Wait a minute. That's not what I want to hear right now.
Yeah. Well, and I think, you know, again, following the advice of your friend, we're done with that instructor, right? You have an experience like that. You move on. You don't have to stay with that instructor. And that's part of, you know, really feeling empowered to search out an instructor that, that works for you is so important. And, you know, I mean, it's one thing to be a great pilot. It's another thing to be a great instructor and, you know, different skill sets. Yeah. And I think, you know, for an instructor to keep in mind as a new pilot, I mean, I remember very distinctly just learning to ground handle and my instructor saying, why are your hands doing this?
And I, I remember thinking, I have no idea what my hands were doing. I have no idea what you were talking about. And she said, okay, so next time, you know, raise your right hand or your left hand or, or do it this or put it here. And then, you know, it was this experience of, okay, now I'm aware that I have a right hand and it's actually doing something. And, you know, and again, having an instructor who can articulate what you need to do rather than, you know, in your case, he was just saying, stop, stop, stop. You need an instructor to say, raise your hands up, you know, and be able to give you simple advice that you can follow because when we're learning something new, I mean, it's overwhelming to our brain at first. And, and I, and I find it really interesting, to learn as an adult, because I kind of could feel my brain process this information.
And, you know, the first time I would be like, I have no idea what my hands were doing. And then the next time I would think about my hands and be like, oh, cool, look, look what they're doing. And look what happens when I can actually pay attention to it, you know, until you get that muscle memory in. But I think, again, having an instructor who can articulate in very simple terms, patiently, what exactly you need to be doing, because it is overwhelming to our brains when we're first, first learning.
Yeah. And this recent trip down to Mexico, there was a gal in the van going up to launch one day and she was cracking up because she was being very vocal that she was single. And, uh, which is a great playing field because there's so many men, but she was saying, you know, the, you know, in this sport, you're either, you know, you're either single, uh, because the sport has made you single because you chase it so hard and you never have time to be home or you're in a relationship with another pilot. And that has not been my experience. All the guy pilots that I fly with here in Sun Valley are in very strong relationships and none of their spouses fly, unfortunately, including my own. But, um, so, but I got to ask you this, this personal question, because it's something that our listeners frequently ask. And I think, you know, they,
people don't understand how to navigate this space. You know, you're, you guys are learning together. You're married. Uh, has it created any problems? Has it created any issues? Are there, are there things you've had to quabble over?
You know, it's interesting because for us, it hasn't, it hasn't caused any major issues. Um, it caused more issues before I was a pilot because I was tired of sitting around waiting and I didn't get that, you know, he'd go fly in the morning and then he'd be free in the middle of the day and then say, well, I'm not sure. Maybe I'll go back tonight. Maybe I won't. And I'm like, what the heck? I don't understand. Just, are you going to fly or are you not going to fly? You know? And so I didn't understand and I got very irritated a few times. Um, so it's actually helped, um, a lot understanding the sport. And I would say, even if I decided I don't like this, just taking the lessons, just understanding what he's doing, I have more appreciation for it.
And at the same time, I can see as we move forward, I mean, we're both pretty new, so there's plenty of time in our futures for it to cause.
We'll
do a follow-up episode.
Yeah. Yeah. Get back to me in 24 months. But again, here's, here's the thing. I think it's really healthy for our relationship coming back to the independence part where there's lots of things that we do together where we're dependent on each other. And those are really cool in a different way. The fact that paragliding, we're not dependent on each other. I have found really healthy for, for both of us. And, and again, especially, you know, I think it's really healthy for me as a woman and being used to doing other sports with John, where he, he always takes the lead and he has more experience. And I just, you know, I'm the Blair I'm following I'm cleaning, you know, this and that. And, and now to say, you know what? No, I've got my own wing. I've got my own gear. I have, I have the knowledge to do this and it's given him the freedom.
Cause I'll say, Hey, if you feel good about flying, go fly. If I want to keep my feet on the ground, then I'm going to make that decision for myself, but you make your own decision. I have found it a really healthy thing in our relationship.
Cool. That's great. Lisa, this was highly entertaining. I had a smile on my face the whole time. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you articulating all of this and sharing with the audience, your, uh, your endeavors up to 58 flights and talking about your perspective. I think that's super valuable. Shout out to the, the women listeners there and the guy listeners too, who, who want to get their, their, uh, their gals into, into the sport and contact Lisa, give her a shout. And, uh, that's just awesome. Like I said, we, we would love to see more women in the sport. So I hope this is, uh, encouraging to those that are maybe on the fence thinking about it, but, um, is there anything else before we, before we sign off? I really appreciate this talk. Thank you for your time.
I
would say one other thing that really stood out to me that I heard from one of the guests on your podcast. And I, I'm really bad at remembering the names, but, um, very pilot had had a pretty, um, serious accident.
And you're talking about a female.
No, it was a guy. Um, but after his accident, when he got it back into it, he made the decision to evaluate, Hey, what is, what's my, you know, a hundred percent capacity level. And then to back it off 20 or 25 % and to fly within, you know, 75 % of his ability. And as a new pilot, I listened to that. And I said, you know what, that's a really good thing for me to keep in mind as a new pilot, to not push it to a hundred percent to say, Oh, I could do that, but probably backing it off 20, 25 % is going to keep me safer. And that has really stuck with me. And that's obviously looks a lot different for me than it does, you know, for you or, you know, another super experienced pilot. Um, but that has been profound and really has stood out to me from one of the episodes of the podcast.
Um, because again, it goes back to the safety for me. I really want to, I want to start off safe. I want to be an old pilot. And, and so I've, I've got to be careful and not, and not push those limits all the way to a hundred percent. I
don't know who that was. I want to say that's Will Gadd, but he's never had an accident. So it's not him. Cause that sounds like something you would say. It's so smart. That is great.
Thanks for bringing that back up. I'm actually working with, with cross country magazine about, uh, putting the podcast together as a book, kind of like a, like a Tim Ferriss's tools of Titans, you know? So once we get to episode a hundred, I've already actually started going back through and, you know, organizing it and putting all the chapters together in terms of, you know, in terms of safety and risk and three liners, all the different aspects that we cover on the show. So that, uh, that's a great one. Thanks for reminding the listeners about that. That's good advice. Lisa, thanks so much. I really, truly appreciate this. I, I, I appreciate you reaching out. That was kind of a bold move and, uh, it was, that was, that was super enjoyable. It reminds me that we have to, uh, cater more of the shows to, to your end of the audience as well. Cause that's, you know, that's what we want to do is encourage people to get, to get into the sport.
Well, I appreciate being able to have the conversation. And, um, and like I said, I, I, the offer is serious. If there's any women out there who just want to talk about or explore it, I would be more than happy to, uh, to connect with them.
Awesome. Well, we'll put your, we'll put your details in the show notes. And then, uh, you mentioned also quite a few instructors. And so after we stop recording here, I'll, uh, I'll get that information from you. And if you're comfortable with it, we'll put some of that stuff in the show notes as well. So people know where to go and who to contact Lisa. Thanks. Awesome. Uh, enjoy your ground handling in the Netherlands. May you and your, your husband, uh, have a great lifetime of flight and I'm sure we'll be meeting in the air at some point. That's how this sport works.
Sounds great, Kevin. Thank you.
I
hope you enjoyed that really cool talk with Lisa. I think that was very enlightening on a lot of different levels, no matter where you are in the game. I want to thank her for that. As always, always ask for a buck a show. If you're getting something out of this, if you're finding that you're, uh, being safer, better sending it farther, uh, talking about it in the car on the way up to launch, whatever, if it's a resource that you like, uh, think of it as a magazine subscription, but only if you can afford it. We don't want it to be a stretch. We don't want it to dig into coffee money and that kind of thing. But if you can't afford it, uh, go check us out on cloudbasedmayhem.com. There's the links to support us. If you want to just do it as a one-off, a lot of people do it that way. They listen to a whole bunch of shows and then send us 30 or 50 bucks or whatever, which is great. Or you can go to patreon.com forward slash cloud-based mayhem and kind of set it and forget it.
That's where you can decide whether to give us a buck or two or three, a show, whatever. And I can be rewarded for doing so. And then it's a, you can pick a limit. So you can't spend over a certain amount every month. And it's totally dependent on us. You only have to pay when we put content out. Had a big surge in that this last month, which I really appreciate. Uh, and if you go there, you might see that, Oh my gosh, these guys are getting like 750 bucks a show, which sounds like a lot, but these days we're getting, you know, anywhere from 10 to 25,000 downloads a show. So, and a lot of those people on Patreon and then on PayPal and that kind of thing are sending us quite a bit more than a dollar a show, which means that only a bare fraction of the listeners are actually supporting it, which is totally cool. We're going to keep doing it and it's always going to be free.
And I understand a lot of people just don't have the funds to do it, but if you're getting something out of it and you think it's a good resource and, uh, and you want to support us, we'd be really pleased to accept that. Thank you very much. As you can imagine, there's quite a bit of money spent on equipment and servers and music and editing and all that stuff. And of course, a lot of time, but we dig it. We hope you dig it. Thank you very much. And PS, uh, the next show is with Marco, who I just was flying with and racing with down in Mexico. He was absolutely amazing. He's a great guy. He's a great guy. He's a great guy. He's a crushing it on a queen and he NC wing. It was actually a pretty frustrating. He was just dominating the gaggles and pushing out and, uh, really flying fast. I mean, he's making the Enzo threes looks, looks slow. Uh, so got to ask him about the wing, but a lot of you have been asking, you know, a lot of the people I, I interview are two liner, two line pilots and world cup pilots and that kind of thing.
And that's definitely not the majority of paragliders in the world. And, uh, so many of you have been asking about the wing. And I'm going to ask you about techniques and strategies and just, you know, digging into the, the deep stuff on three liners and how to fly, you know, an ENB or an ENC glider better. So that's what the next show is all about. Really stoked to talk to Marco. He's a long time world cup pilot. I think he's going to be signing up for the X ops the next time. So he's an exceptional pilot, but he was down there just crushing on an ENC. So that'll be a lot of fun. So stay tuned and we'll see you on the next show. Cheers.