Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of the Cloudbase Mayhem. This one's pretty special. I'm recording this now back in my house, but a couple days ago I was down in the final days of the pre PWC in Zapotec, outside of Guzman, in Mexico. It was the first time that Miguel Gutierrez and his incredible team, Alastair Lombre, put up a comp there. I think it was the first comp they've had there in Mexico. They've been flying in that region and near those volcanoes for a long time, but of course most of us all flock down to Valle every year. Got to put in a shout for those guys again. It's just an amazing place to fly, an awesome place to race. Really psyched that they're going to keep doing that every year. This was kind of the test piece. It was absolutely amazing, and I've got to encourage all of you to listen to the show when they have that Zapotec Open next December.
To definitely head down there. Just an awesome venue. We had parades and huge feeds, and the locals are just totally into it, just like they are in Valle. A really cool place. A lot more possibilities, actually, than Valle. A lot of ways to win a race down there, instead of just kind of following the gaggle around. So it was very exciting. Huge thanks to the Alastair Lombre team. This podcast is with Miguel Gutierrez, who I knew was a legend, who I knew was rad. But I had no idea the depth of it. His father was the first one to skydive down in, and not really even skydive, like base jump, back in like 1930. This is absolutely amazing. This one's all about the history of the sport. Miguel was the first one to ever fly in Valle.
He cut his teeth in the Owens flying gliders that you just wouldn't believe. There's going to be all kinds of pictures up when we put this up live, and you've got to check those out. His dad was known as... El Gato, the cat. But before we get into it with Miguel, just because I'm so excited to put this out, but before we get into it, just a few items of housekeeping. One, we had this cool giveaway for the Power Traveler battery, and the Flymaster Vario, and the solar panel. I've got the winners of that. I just wanted to read a couple of them. First, from Gabriel Bass, cloud-based man with ultimate mental training, one of the most essential aspects for the paraglider pilot. Second,
from Gabriel Bass, cloud-based man with ultimate mental training, one of the most essential aspects for the paraglider pilot. Third,
from Gabriel Bass, cloud-based man with ultimate mental training, one of the most essential aspects for the paraglider pilot. Fourth, from Gabriel Bass, cloud-based man with ultimate mental training, one of the most essential aspects for the paraglider pilot. Fifth, from Gabriel Bass, cloud-based man with ultimate mental training, one of the most essential aspects for the paraglider pilot. Sixth, from Gabriel Bass, cloud-based man with ultimate mental training, one of the most essential aspects for the paraglider pilot. Sixth, from Gabriel Bass, cloud-based man with ultimate mental training, one of the most essential aspects for the paraglider pilot. Seventh,
from Gabriel Bass, cloud-based man with ultimate mental training, one of the most essential aspects for the paraglider pilot. Who's been on the show twice. He put up a really cool comment after the Dustin podcast, and I'm going to be sending him some swag as well. I really appreciate you all sharing the knowledge and sharing the love; that is very cool, and a way for—I got to switch back to another thing here—a way that I want to show appreciation to all of you. One of my sponsors is Garmin, of course. They picked up Delorme, so they're now the owner of inReach. These days, they just put out a new model about six months ago, maybe a little bit longer than that, and as you all know, I am way more hip to inReach than I am to Spot. I just, you know, I hear these—I hear people say, "Oh, well, it's way more expensive," and I just think that's hogwash. I mean, we buy paragliders, we parallel.
I mean, what? It's your safety. So, if you ask me, you have to have an inReach. I mean, Spot's certainly better than nothing; it's nice to have the tracking, but I mean to have that two-way communication and be able to Tell people specifically what's going on. We had a rescue here a little over a year ago. If we hadn't had those, if everybody actually in that team hadn't had InReaches, it would have been a way worse scenario. So get yourself an InReach, and for a limited time, in fact, between the 15th when this goes live and the end of the month, so 30th, so it's only available for 15 days, you can get 10 off of any InReach, so either the SE model or the Explorer model. And, uh, this is a specific code to the listeners of the Cloudbase Mayhem, so, uh, go on to their site, garmin.com.
I believe this works for anybody around the world, but I'll, I'll make sure on that, uh, the codes are, there's quite a few, but it's gavin 2017, gavin space 2017, gavin 2017, or, yeah, sorry, lowercase or uppercase, any of those should work if you have any trouble with that.
email through cloudbasemayhem.com, and I'll make sure you get the hookup. So that's 10 again, that's 10 off, so that should save you about 40 bucks, 45 bucks, uh, of a new Garmin InReach to get you psyched and stoked and ready for the new season. Uh, what else? I think that's about it. I want to get into this show we did this live down in Mexico with Miguel. There was a little bit of background noise, but I think it should be pretty good. We got going early, fantastic, just amazing. How amazing to learn how he's gotten sponsors so interested in it, uh, by far the most, uh, experienced and professional team at running comps in the world. But so, so, so much more, and, uh, really cool to just see how Miguel's passion started for this sport, literally when he was tiny.
He's the youngest of 10 kids, uh, amazing family of pilots, and you have got to check it out. So enjoy this most incredible conversation with Miguel, very good friend of mine. I'm happy to call him my friend, Miguel Gutierrez, Miguel...
It's a real honor. I've been so excited to talk to you for so long, and it's nice to be able to do this in person here in Zapotec at this amazing comp. I can't wait to tell everybody about this wonderful place you've found, another place for us to race. And usually, in these conversations, I would ask to start with your history, but in, in this case, I, I really want to start with you with your dad. You know, you were showing me these photos yesterday, uh, which listeners were going to put some of these online. You, you have to check these out; it's just amazing. But tell me about your dad and, and a little bit about the flying history of your family before we get to you, hey.
Thank you very much, it's an honor for me. Hola amigos. Uh, yes. Uh, well, my father started flying in 1927. He got the license, the Mexican license number 34 or something like that. So he started with the the civil aviation in Mexico, actually. And uh, he was like 17 and uh, he was working and he, he was not rich. He was just uh, working on coffee in Mexico City. So when he saw the first airplanes flying around Mexico City, he, he wanted to to go in and fly on one of those.
So, but he didn't have any money so, and to do that or to learn. So what he did was to get in in the first um parachute corpse of the army and uh, like a volunteer. And he taught uh, used to tell us that 10 people sign in and only three jump from the airplane, and he was one of them. And since then, he really liked it, and uh, so he started jumping from the airplanes, and then he learned to fly immediately, like at 17 years old, only three hours of teaching, and he was flying alone.
And after that, um, what he was doing was like an air shows, or just like the
original Red Bull athlete, yeah.
Actually, like, so in order to get at the spot on the landing, because those parachutes didn't have any controls, so um, what he was doing is, uh, like a base jump basically. The very, very low, he, he walked on the, on the wings and then jumped from the wing very, very low, so he can open the chute and just land like, like, and um, so he became, uh, he, the, the, their friends give him the name of the cat because he has, uh, more than seven lives and um, so um, after that nickname, he thought, well, what I'm gonna do is jump with, with cats and somehow he start, um, building a small parachutes for, for their cats.
He used to love cats anyway, but I think it was like, uh, I don't know, weird and so, and so he start jumping with the cats and at that time, you can imagine in Mexico, Even only looking at the sky and see those airplanes flying was amazing for the people. And then, uh, suddenly some weird guy came land with a cat. It was like, I don't know, like a black cat, you know, like magic or something like that. So that was like the starting of this flying, this loving of flying in my family and
You showed me pictures that he also built parachutes for the cat, so he would like throw them off a bridge and they would parachute down, maybe
It's not nice in this time, you know, because it's like I don't know, protecting the animals, but maybe they liked it. I don't know, so I'm the last of my... we have my family is very big. We are ten: five brothers, five sisters, and I'm the last one. So my father born in 1910, and so since kid, I... I flew, you know, I was flying in my father's airplanes, and we always go every weekend to fly and see my older brothers flying sailplanes, and so we and
You said he was your dad, the first one to bring a sailplane into
Mexico, oh yes. Also, yes, he was a—he flew a sailplane from Mexico City to Acapulco. That he—somebody tow him halfway, and then he flew to Acapulco. And yes, he was famous also because when somebody disappear, when the pilot disappear flying around the country, and my father always was a volunteer to the to go and find them. And normally he find found many of the pilots that had an accident in the mountains in Mexico at that time. So he was—he got a lot of medals and things like that, you know.
And actually, he was part of the development of the Mexican law, or the the like, the FIA, the Mexican FIA, yeah. And and
There's, there's always another day to fly. That was the famous words of my father. So when my Vico is my, my closest brother, it's only one year and a half older than me, and he was always doing crazy stuff, also like my father and his father. He started building and in 1973 or '74, we saw incredible magazine called Wings with hang gliders. It was a hang gliding magazine, but I think it was from Britain or Europe.
I don't remember, but it was colorful and we saw those hang gliders, you know, Rogalo many like colorful and many people flying those things. So we just start not sleeping, you know, he, we were just dreaming about having one of those or flying one of those and how
Old are you then?
maybe 12 okay and then at 13 my Vico was like 15 he came up to the house with full of garbage like tubes, tubings that he found in a construction, It was a PVC tubes, and he was very excited and tell us, "Look, we're gonna build a hang glider," you know, because we saw many pictures from Bob Wheels and Chris Wheels flying the bamboo gliders. And so, here we go, then we start building this hang glider, and we didn't—I mean, the center of gravity and those things, it was probably not in the right place, yeah.
And that my mother helped us to, so Sue, Sue, the the Sale, it was a plastic sale. We went to my father, my father's coffee factory. It was big and they have a lot of material there, and so we build it. And so then we, we went to some little hills around Mexico City to fly it, and only long last that afternoon, you know, it broke, break immediately, and we just feel some kind of lift, but we actually never, that thing never flew. But the second, the second try, my vehicle also found some aluminium tubing and we built another one bigger, but
And then that, that hang glider we, we bring it to air show that my older brother did in Mexico City with, he was flying the pitch specials and sail planes in this air show. So we set up the hang glider on them, on the main runway. There was a lot of public attending this air show and from the public, one when we build this hang glider there, from the public came, came some people that they have already contact with a real hang gliders in Mexico and so they, they told us, "Okay, I know where, what, where they fly, you know, and I can, I can pick up this weekend and let's go flying." So we were all amazed and so these guys pick up
Went to my house on the weekend, and we went to the place where they were flying, and we saw about 15 hang gliders flying in these little hills around Mexico. And those guys were the pioneers, actually. It was the name Manolo Santos, Manuel Santos, and he get to know Bob Wills, and they get kind some friends at that time. They, they teach us some tips and this and that. Of course, they didn't allowed us to fly this hang glider that we bring because it was completely ridiculous, but some some parachute parachutist friend of my brother and in that air show land also with his parachute, and they he told us, "Hey, look, I have a real hang glider in my house."
I change it, trade it for a parachute, and I don't know how to fly it. Yeah, you can take it, and when you learn, you tell me and you teach me. And we were—I was 13 years old at the time. I don't know, these guys, older guys, how they can think about that, you know? I think everybody was just in idiots, but so we bring this hang glider to
Mexico, and we bring this hang glider to Mexico, and we bring this with the we
pick up this hang glider with the friends that came into this air show, because we don't even drive a car. So this guy that came down and see our hang gliders at that air show, they have like maybe 24 years old, 25. So anyway, they pick us up the next weekend. We bring this new hang glider with the old hang glider, and then we start trying it. My brother vehicle fluid and crash it immediately. And so after that, well, you know, it's the stories that every weekend we just go to fly, and we start flying. Finally, we start flying the hang gliders, and since then, the difficult part was that we didn't want to go to school.
You know, we just think about flying, and well, After some few years, we, we survived, you know, that time. We managed to fly these rogalos for 41 hour and a half soaring, but we discovered everything because we didn't know that we can actually, um, sore with the wind or things like that, thermals, I think thermals. We, we discovered many years later when, um, when we traveled to California, because what happened is that, and every weekend we go flying with these friends and we don't have money because we were kids.
So these, these friends always pay for the food and this and that, and suddenly they start telling us, "Look, you have to bring some money, you know, because we cannot sponsor you all the time." So what they did is buy two, um, wheelswing universals, it's called, uh, SST super swallow tail. universals that they were designed for teaching, so they bought two of those and they um found founded Alas del Hombre. Alas del Hombre means the wings of man. Alas is wings, hombres man.
So they, they, that that was how Alas del Hombre was found, uh, founded, and um they hired my brother and me like monitors or instructors, so they, so then we can pay our own food during the weekend, or so. So that was the the start of the company that I run today. Um, and then um, well, we after a few years, we discovered Valle de Bravo in 19, first we discovered Tapalpa actually in 19, in 1977.
We discovered a takeoff there, and we traveled all the way from Mexico to Tapal by every every year in October to fly this place. And we have just a few places to fly. We didn't really know, um, many of the—we were discovering everything because there was nothing. And I have to tell that the the after two months of of learning the, like, we just get into the sport and these pioneers, the first day we we went, these guys tell us that a month ago a guy was get killed and, uh, so that was the first news when we get into the training hill the first day, you know?
So it was like very intense, you know, serious, yes. and um
Is this about the time, uh, you, you were telling me that your, your mother was, uh, she helped you so in the beginning, but then when she saw what you were doing, she did really didn't want you to do it. And your dad would say, "No, no, it there'd be fine," because I was fine, something like that?
Yes, yes, yeah. My father always told my mom, "Look, don't worry. I mean, I didn't get killed when I learned to parachute, and I think these hang gliders looks safe. You know, it looks big, they fly slow, and and the kids, the bones of the kids are like, uh, like plastic. You know, they don't, they will not break any bones. Don't worry. It was my older brother, that he, he was a very good pilot. He got married with a Texas girl, and he became one of the Confederate Air Force pilots in in the in Texas. He was a very good pilot, acrobatic pilot, and um, and actually he was the FIA president in Mexico or the Idol Club, and um, so he got a lot of information about hang gliders and other aircrafts, so he explained to my father and to me and my other brother and that the hang glider was
A very good pilot, and he was a very good pilot, and he was a very good pilot.
in
englands
know so
He was a very smart pilot, and he has an vierta cannot fly that thing, and they say, "Oh, look at these pictures, all the pilots are hippies." You know, there they look—I mean, you cannot, they're just a crazy guys don't. And so yes, it so this this my friends, the old friends that found a las del hombre, and they make this school. They, they organized a trip for my brother and me to California, so we went to Sylmar and we met treat melinger. He was a very famous pilot at the time because he was one of the first cross country pilots.
He flew about 30 miles in Cerro Gordo in Owens Valley at that time with a Phoenix Delta wing, Phoenix 6b. I remember this because All these guys were our heroes, and so he invited us to his house in California, and we stay with him, and then we, we, we learn how to teach. We learn that you, you must have wheels on the bar, things like that, you know. We were amazed to see his school, you know, like in a little building with everything all set with
and a shop, and you know, all professional. So we learn a lot about, about, about many things, so we bring all that knowledge to Mexico, and we start teaching. But, however, again, I was now, I think, and I said, how those adults and our students were like 30 years older than us. We were only 15 years old, 16 year old, and I don't understand why they became our students, you know what I mean? Yeah, we were just... and very young, but we start teaching people and...
but in the first years, the instructor, there was an instructor at that time, and when we start flying and, uh, just six months later, this instructor get killed also, and we were there, you know? So it was the most, uh, shocking experience maybe in my life, I will never forget, you know, because we were at takeoff, we helped him take off, and then in a place called Hokotitlan, it's a very high mountain, uh, without our... they were taking off in a rock, very crazy, with a lot of wind, because we don't even think about what time to fly, you know?
Like, if one o'clock was okay, it doesn't matter, we just jump into the air, and it was... I mean, every... I'm... I'm very grateful to be here, you know? I'm very...
Every, every week when I get going to the bathroom, I saw my body and I was thinking, maybe tomorrow I'm not going to be here. How, how, how is existentialist? Yeah, thinking at the age of 17, I don't know. So then we, I remember we bought a Phoenix 8; we jumped from the Rogalo to the Phoenix 8. and we start flying the phoenix 8 the phoenix the you know those gliders that they come from the ashes see and um well
I have, um, one of my nephews. I have, as I said, my family is very big, and my older brothers and sisters, they got their sons at the same time when I was born, so I have many nephews at the same age. And one of them, we will they learn with us in at that time, one of them was 12 years old, Santiago. And after we learned one month later, they, they went to to California to leave because my sister get married with a guy from California, Jeff, so they went and live in LA.
and we were, my brother and me, were really jealous because we knew that California was the mecca of the flying, you know, all these heroes were there, actually right there in Cal, in LA, so we were all jealous. So when they get to LA, they write us, call us, that, "Yes, we are here," and we just met Bill Bennett and and this and that and Joe Greglo and Joe Greblo from from Silmar was so nice. He, he, he always been so nice, and they teach us a lot, and my, my nephews were with him all the time and learning, and they start working at Bill Bennett factory.
So by then, ev, since then, I, I flew to LA every summer because in Mexico was, was raining, and also it's summertime where the school is finished, high school, so I run away to every summer since then, like I don't know, 15 times, and Bill Bennett gave me a job every time when I was in California, and so I used to cut the sail patterns of the hang gliders from Bill Bennett, and so I learned a lot there also because every week we have to go and test the hang gliders
Every hang glider that we build, we have to test it, and we get paid for that also. And so it was very nice times there. Then I got sponsored for him to go to Australia and fly the hang gliding worlds, and I flew with many of the good people pilots there. So I, I became more one more experience. Then I, we start flying Owens Valley actually in, in the night, in the night. And 81 was the first time I went there. I was 18, 18 years old, and I went to Owens without any expectatives, you in any expecting nothing, you know, just but I don't know, I remember, I cannot tell you.
I, I have no conscience, you know, it's like I don't even think how dangerous was just Yes, so big the place, no there wrote no roads, and I don't even think what happened if you land somewhere in the middle of nowhere, it's
Amazing to me to think what you guys were doing there then, and we still, I mean, today it's the strongest place, yes, maybe anywhere you know to fly. I mean, there's, it's strong, it's
like, uh, um, right now or something, yeah? Because, yes. And so I, I met Larry Tudor there, and and all the, you know, monsters, yeah? And um, Eric Raymond, and so Pete Brock was very nice with us, and um, he speaks perfect Spanish because he used to live in Taxco in Mexico and making business with um, silver, so he had a perfect Spanish. And uh, when he saw us so young, he was like, "What are you doing here?
You are crazy. You cannot fly Owens Valley," you know? But um, some of the Mexicans were—we went a group of Mexicans, one of them was having, he was a rich guy and he sponsored, he was, he become up dealer and he bought like five comets and he sponsored me with one, so I flew the competition without any thinking Nothing, and I finished third place, and it was a the cross country open. So what they did is put the the rigid wings flying with the hang gliders, because at that time they the comet start flying
almost the same as the fledge gling, the fledge the rigid wings. So what they did is put them together so they can test it, and that Larry Tudor won that competition. He beat Eric Raymond, who was flying a prototype from Bob Trampano. The the seed wing is called... it's a very strange wing with dihedral and and yeah, you showed me pictures of that. We'll put that up on the website. It's amazing, amazing. The bar was a cable, and then you have those uh like uh, handles to move the ailerons and
and it was a very fast wing, and Eric Raymond was doing incredible loopings with that in the Owens, but uh, Larry Tudor beat him, and I placed third, and I over Rex Miller, who was a world champion, with another fledgeling. So Eddie Graymond, I mean, Pete Brock, was surprised, you know? And then he, he built a special glider for me with the Mexican flag on the kill kill pocket, and uh, so I flew the the classic, the cross country classic, and at that time we flew over 100 miles, like 17 pilots, what
What year now are we?
81, 81. Wow, yeah, it was Steve Moyes, yeah, Rich Pfeiffer, Larry Tudor, and we all flew over 100 miles, but at that time it was, uh, like, uh, today they are flying 500 kilometers on that gear and with
That knowledge was that when you got the third, it sounded like you were already completely obsessed, so you were gonna do it anyway. But when you, when you got the third there in that competition, was that the kind of the eye-opening for you like, "Oh, I could, I could do this"? Is it, yes?
Exactly, yeah. It was like, uh, wow, I, I can do it, yeah. And, uh, well, it was like, uh, living in a dream, you know? It's like, and actually, when I, I, when I went to those competitions, I was in high school and, uh, but that time my notes were terrible. Like, I mean, I was just thinking and drawing hang gliders during class, not paying
the ego, I, I was better than the than the professor, yeah, you know, yeah. So, in um, so I, I didn't get some um, I didn't pass some um, like mathematics and all. I was, uh, how do you say, a really bad student? Yes, really bad. So my teacher says, "Uh, you're not gonna go to the next level, you know."
So, um, so I said, "Well, the problem is that I don't even will be attending the the final exams," and they say, "Why?" Because I'm going Owens Valley, you know? And they said, "Well, what's that?" You know, yes, this competition, competition, and it's a world class, and I'm going, I'm going there anyway. So they said, "Okay." The like, the director, that he says, "Okay, well, it's your your call. Is you choose if you go there, you're not gonna pass the year, you know? But, um, what are you going to do?" So I said, "No, I'm going to fly there." And so they, he said, he told me, "Well, if you go and you place a good good place..."
I, I will give you the the past, you know.
the like, the current football players, you're getting the—you're getting the original pass back in the day. I love it, so
When I came back, I was very proud and, uh, he, he gave me the year, yes. And, um, so since then, I, I was going to Owens every year, all years, for, um, I don't know, maybe until 1993, where the world's, uh, the world hang gliding championships was, um, organized there. Tom Preachy and these guys, so
Um, I went to to the this competition and I placed placed six and in this hang gliding was my best position ever, and it was John Pendry and many of these guys. And since then, we start organizing competitions in Valle de Bravo since 93, no, before that, yeah, we way before I thought, yes, we
organized the Daniel Gremion Cup. Daniel Gremion was one of the most popular and leaders of hang gliders at that time in Mexico. He was very nice. He was, um, from France, the Mexican, but coming from France, and he was really nice guy and every everybody loves him like Pete Brock of at that time in Mexico, and uh, he get killed in a competition in Valle de Bravo, and then he was competition hang gliding competition in Mexico in Tapalpa, and um, so we, we love it, um, Danielle, and so we, we start doing this competition in El Peñon called the Daniel Gremion Cup, and it was very popular like Monarca, um, Gerard Tevenot from France came, John Pendry, Rich Pfeiffer, all the so
That kind of became one of the stops, yeah. Okay, on
the tour by you start getting into the calendar, you know, at that time for hang gliders and
You said you were the first person to fly by? Yes, it's amazing.
Yes, I, I first was Tapalpa, yeah. And we came to Tapalpa like in a safari car, without ceiling, without, and the hang gliders there like 14 hours driving. At that time, the roads were terrible, there was no highways, and um, we, we discovered Tapalpa. We built the takeoff and nobody wanted to jump the first time in Tapalpa at that time, and I was the first. I jump it, I, I take off, so I was the first time, the first pilot to fly Tapalpa actually. Also, because after I take off, everybody takeoffs, and um, at that year in '77 or '78, uh, Trip Melinger, the guys we met in California, the school, Wind Heaven school, they come down to Mexico, and we, they flew Tapalpa, and the first article in the hang gliding magazine from the USPA
Written for of Mexico was article and I, you can I have the collection of magazines of the USPA, yeah. And, uh, this article was the hombres pajaros of Mexico was written by by Trip Melinger and it talks all about Tapalpa and Mexico and it's funny and and, uh, after Tapalpa we discover Valle, Valle de Bravo and and how does
that, how does it happen? How do you discover, like, how do you, I wouldn't even, you drive through and look around. I mean, how did you discover that place?
Well, first we discovered the place that is on top of Valle, you know, it's La Torre, which is right there. And because there's a forest tower for fire. So we saw that and we thought, well, okay, if that is a tower there for the forest, it must be a road. So we start looking at it. But when I was a kid before, since five years old, I was going to Valle because one of my sisters, older sister, has a house in Avandaro. He was one of the first houses there.
And Valle was fantastic. Very popular for the rich people because they were the first one to discover it for sailing, you know, sailboats. And so, like, it was the first sport in Valle, the sailboats. Then the horses, horse jumping, because those sports are for more rich people. So they start going to Valle and buy. They built ranches and that was the first developers. My sister was one of the first of my family who, they have a house there. So we were there, going there since five years old.
So when we start flying hang gliders, we always think about Valle. Because then some friends that they sail, have sailboats, they told us that the wind was always there. It was always the same direction and perfect, not too strong, not too mellow. So we got to find a place to fly there because it's beautiful. So then we saw this tower and we saw the direction of the wind and that's the place, you know. So I remember I was, I mean, very young and a priest. We were at dinner somehow in Valle and when there was a priest there, he was like a missionary or something that he, he was like very adventurous.
So he told me, I tell him, we were starting talking about hang gliders and that we wanted to fly in Valle. So I show him that tower and he says, well, I drive you, you know. So he drive us and we. We get up and we saw the wind through the trees because it was full of trees. And, uh, well, I talked to all the friends in Mexico and we organized a group and we were, we, we went all, all, all the way to the, the, the top with, with the machines, chainsaws. And we cut the trees without, um, um, of course we have a saying in.
Mexico. It says, which is, it's fair to say, I'm sorry that to ask for permission. So we cut the trees. And, uh, so I took off, I was the first one to take off. There was only three pilots there. And, uh, the other two were older than me and they don't want it to take off first because they told me, no, you are more light. You know, you're, so you can, you can, you, you will pass the trees, you know, because the, it was not perfect when we, so I flew there and the next weekend, everybody came to fly and from there to today is what, what we discovered the place.
Of course we didn't know that, that it was going to be so popular. So after about in, in, in the eighties was where the opinion was discovered that because we were flying there a lot, but somehow, you know, another guy discover the opinion and, uh, the road and everything was there, but there was no, no ramp at all. It was just trees. And then we did the same. We cut the trees and we opened the place and, and here. We are, you know, amazing, amazing. Yeah. And then it was only until 2007 where we, um, we
apply for the world championships, the paragliding championships. And then we ask, uh, the governor of the state to help us to build a big, big, um, takeoff so that, uh, the governor. Is the actual president of Mexico. It's a major project to bring a hang, uh, paragliding championships. And so they help us to build this ramp. All these, uh, working it's has been very, very hard, like the landing in, in, in La Torre where the first place by the lake is a dam it's artificial lake. So they take the water used to be.
For electricity, but now it's a part of the, they pump that water into Mexico. And, uh, so what they do is they fill out completely the lake and then they start taking the water out. But when they fill the lake, the landing disappear. So we have six months normally without landing. So for about 15 years. Yeah. We try to convince the, the authorities to build for us, uh, like, um, the landing because we need it. So we keep a lot of time. I, I never been in politics.
I really don't like it. I hate it actually. But you know, since I was a kid and I saw everything growing, I have the opportunity to see so many things happening since I was. I was a young kid that I have a lot of experience and, and I, I saw many mistakes and good, good decisions and this and that. So I, I find the way to, to convince the politicians and the authorities and what's the, what's, what's best for the sport. So I have, I have been lucky to, to, to take or to. Uh, find a way of having help from the government.
Um, and the government actually in Mexico, the tourism office from all these offices from the government, the tourism office is really, really good. They really understand what, uh, how important is the, the, the tourism for Mexico. Mexico is one of the, it's, it's ranked on top of the tourism. Um, um, countries in the world. So they, they, this office is really well organized and they, they are kind of smart doing some things. So the paragliding and hang gliding is, isn't we, we, what we do is it's a sport, but we, what we do is putting on the tourism, um, area, you know what I mean?
So that helped us a lot. Uh, I did that. But in here in Zapotec, so I don't go, I don't go to the sports, um, agent or the sports, uh, government, whatever that is very bad, you know, it's corrupt and this, but tourism is better because it's, it's, it's a sport, but it's more tourism.
They understand that these people come and they spend money and they're, yeah, it's good for the community. Exactly. Because when we got here, there was parades and. I mean, um, fireworks and food,
and it was just amazing. It has a, uh, paragliding has a big impact in the people in Mexico. It's still very, um, the people are still amazed to see a human landing in their backyard with a paraglider from out of nowhere. So they get amazed just like my father land with a cat, you know? Yeah. So it still has. That because in Europe or United States, the people already know so many things and they're used to all kinds of stuff. I'm
not so
surprised by it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But in Mexico, the magic still happen. That kind of magic, you know, it's like, because it's more like the people don't, and like Zapotec, they don't even be, uh, imagine that they have now a lot of people flying over their houses. No. When
I was at the, uh. The, at the parade, when you had the big stage, a woman came up and she had a, her young son, five, maybe, and, uh, she'd spent quite a bit of time in Scotland and she was just so excited to practice her English and, and what is, what's going on. And, and I explained it and yesterday her son took a tandem and she, she, what's happening is so excited, just thrilled, you know, but she, I don't think until this happened, she knew what it was. You know, it's pretty exciting. Maybe he'll be another, he'll be one of your good pilots in 15 years. Yes. You never know.
Like in Ala del Hombre right now, all my, my instructors are from Valle. They, uh, Emma is very good pilot and Joaquin is placing very good in this competition and all these guys are from there. Yeah. Joaquin born in El Peñon actually in the little community down, down the landing. Yeah. And they help us to. They start their career by, by helping us, uh, folding the gliders and now they are all instructors. They, they earn more money than me. Probably they do a lot of tandems. Yeah.
Um, Miguel, over this, these decades you've been flying and all this time and the many, many competitions you run in, in Valle and then now here, you've obviously seen a lot of accidents and stuff. Uh, you always give the talk about the trees in, in Valle and how to get down. What, what are the kind of the sum, what are the, what are the snakes in the grass that you see over and over again? What are the most common causes that could easily be avoided?
Well, um, I run a school and for me it's a very big responsibility to, to teach. Because I have seen so many accidents, as you said, and I think the, the most important thing is to keep learning because this is a sport that is growing still. Everything is changing. The paragliders now are different than the paragliders five years ago. And, uh, uh, I was listening to your, um, exposure last night about the two liners was very interesting. Those gliders. The paragliders are completely different. It's another way to fly them. And, uh, so I think it's very important to keep learning and I have 40 years of 43 years flying and I still learn.
I have, there's a lot, a lot to learn. Actually, I took, uh, some of the, um, clinics for the, in the USPA, uh, every time I, uh, when I switched to paraglider, I went to Arizona and visit, uh, Dickson White and to learn from him. And I, I took the first USPA clinic there and I became instructor from USPA. And then also, um, I met in Mexico, I helped Chris Santacroce, David Bridges, and all, all you guys when they came to Valle. Uh-huh. I helped them out.
So they, they all, they all invite me to the States on, in summertime, just come and visit and do tandem for us, whatever. So I went to Aspen and, and, and stayed there for some months, also in Sun Valley and, uh, doing tandems. And I got, I also made some instructor clinics there. I, um, so. So it, it, it really helps, I mean, to learn. I love how the USPA do the clinics because they invite many instructors from many places and all of them has to teach or, um, explain what, how they teach their best techniques.
Like if you are good in, I don't know, teaching these two liner techniques. It's, uh. It's, uh. Everybody get your knowledge. And so if I am good in like meteorology and I explain, everybody will, um, get my knowledge. So it's very, very good because. That
kind of community. Yes. Yeah. You,
you have the best things from, from the best. So learning is, it's important because, uh. Is, this sport is. It's not like, like, uh, bicycles. It's, uh, you have to learn. You have to know all the time. Now I am getting into the APPI, the, um, system because, uh, because it's, it's good, you know? I, I, and I'm still learning. I just get the instructor license, but not the master. So I have to do a lot of work. Mm-hmm. To get. To get all the certifications. So I like that. It's when, when I like to, when I switched, I, I, I was flying hang gliders and then I switched to paraglider.
And then when I switched to paraglider, what I loved the best was that I was nobody. You
were new. Yes. I was. It's the best to be new at something, isn't it? Yes.
It's, it's amazing. A big sponge. Because you, you, you're, I was already having. Like lots of competitions and I am Miguel and whatever. And then you go to paragliding and you are nobody. Yeah. It's the same when I was, uh, when I was going to the California back on those days. I was Miguel in Mexico, but I, in California I was nobody. I got a lot of, uh, pilots, uh, yelling me that I was doing very stupid things in California, no? So it, it's the way it is. It's the way you learn because you are nobody. Yeah. And, uh, I like that. So I think it's important to learn and go to, um, the right place to teach, to, to get, uh, knowledge.
I think it's, I, I have seen one very dangerous thing that happened in the hang gliding and paragliding community, which is the ego. Mm. Like sometimes. Uh, um, well, many times, uh, the people, the pilots get this ego thing and, and once they learn to fly cross country or whatever, it's a very dangerous part. You know, it's like the intermediate syndrome where they, they think they knew, but you never knew. It's a, you always have to learn. Yeah.
Yeah. That's very, and, uh, in Mexico, we don't have a very good, we don't have a, like a USPA, like a federation. We have it, but it's not working. And, uh, what we are seeing is many people that learn to fly, they start teaching their friends and they teach and. They're not
teaching correctly
in the, they don't have their own foundation. Yes. And, uh, so we are, I, I can see that they are doing the same mistakes that I did back, back then. Yeah. So it's. Unnecessary. Exactly. It's unnecessary. We're
seeing that, uh, in a really big way right now with the speed flying community at, at, at home and at the, the, um, for whatever reason they, they don't like USPA and, and they want to do it on their own and, and, uh, and it's, it's, it's exciting because it's an exciting kind of new sport. I mean, it's still paragliding, but it's, uh, but, uh, they just, the, these crashes are horrendous that, you know, and a lot of really bad accidents and it's unnecessary. Yeah. You know, if there was, there, there's, you can learn all that in a really safe way, but they just, they're, they're doing it cowboy. They're doing it like, like you did it back in the day. And it's, it's, it's really sad to see because it's, it's totally unnecessary. You know, all the systems are there to learn meteorology and learn how wings collapse and learn the dangers that we've all learned, you know?
Well, uh, for
my part, I am still learning and, uh, I. Uh, now I'm doing like another, um, courses with APPI and this and, and, uh, it's still very interesting. Like meteorologies, you always learn and we never know. It's important to, to, to know that we are, we are doing something that is, uh, it's, a lot of things, the air it's invisible and, uh, it's, It's where we are going to go, so we need to be careful. When I switched to paragliding, it was like in 87.
Yes, I was... Right at the beginning. Yeah, I was in Silmar working for Bill Bennett again. As I said, I was going every summer. So I was flying my hang glider in Silmar, and suddenly I saw a paraglider in the same thermal getting up. It was like a very square thing. I already knew about paragliding, of course. I remember Roy Haggard. Roy Haggard was the designer of the Mosquito and the Comet. I mean, the Comet was like the glider, you know. It changed the sport.
And Roy Haggard went to Mexico for a show. A long time ago, I don't even remember, but they flew off in a stadium in Mexico City. He and Mike Arambite, they went to Mexico. And we went to the show, and we saw them taking off from the roof of the stadium. And then I invited him home, and he stayed with me. He was completely a hero, you know. He was just older than us. He was very young also. I remember that he flew off a square parachute, you know, with control in Waimanalu, in Hawaii.
So he was like paragliding's beginnings. I remember that. And then we started looking in Europe, the developing of the sport. And I was, like, very interested because I thought, this is going to be the future because, and I was not close, you know, like other paraglider pilots. Because I start the paragliding, you know, when the paragliding starts. So I saw how the sport developed. So when I saw the paraglider, I said, this is interesting because it's going to be the future.
And every time you set up a hang glider, we were always saying there's going to be a time when you don't have to set up a hang glider, you know. Yeah. All this is, this has to be changed. Then I remember the first Atlas, the Lamuette, that you just put two pins. It was a very incredible hang glider, you know, and it's very smart from Gerard Thévenot. But anyway, when I saw this paraglider, in Sylmar, in the thermal, I was really amazed. And then I saw where he land, and I land there. And he was Mathieu de Quignac, a French guy that still flies.
And he was one of the founders of Ozone, actually. He comes from Barcelonette in France. And Barcelonette, the biggest community of French in Mexico, comes from Barcelonette. And actually, Valle de Bravo is, just a few months ago, they become Barcelonette at Valle de Bravo and Brother Cities. And they make a big ceremony. And if you go to Barcelonette, there's a lot of Mexican stuff, because the biggest community in Mexico is from there. And they come, it's a poor, poor, I mean, poor in France. But now it's very rich.
Because the Mexican community comes from there, are very wealthy now. And so they send money to there. Whatever. So Mathieu is from there. So when we land, we talk all about this and that, and the paragliders, and this and that. So he was very excited because he spent like three months in the United States traveling with their paragliders and looking for promotion and, you know, showing the new sport. But he was really sad at that time because he never had any, it was not popular. Actually, he didn't, he, when he was trying to take off in Silmar, they didn't want him.
Now, you know, this is why you're crazy, you know. The insurance and this and that. So he went to other hill and take off, whatever, like a paraglider. So when we land and we were excited, he was very excited. excited, so he gave me that, he teach me to fly the paraglider right there. So I start flying the paraglider there, and he gave me the three paragliders he built he himself. He gave it to me, bring it to Mexico, teach and develop the sport. So I bring those paragliders to Mexico, and I start flying paragliders there, but the day those paragliders were really bad, you know, you don't fly.
I mean, you just
go down
and I try and invite, yeah, and I don't even reach the landing. I land in a very small soccer field, which is down there, but you can manage to land in a very small field because they don't fly, you know? You just go one-to-one or two-to-one or something like that. So, and I flew the paragliders, but I never quit to fly hang gliders. Then the paragliding were developing. I never, never stopped to fly paragliders, but, but keep a lot of time to convince myself.
Then I saw this time where paragliding was really dangerous, when they start to liking hang gliders, when they start to, to open it and better glide. And this, but they were like dangerous, no? So I was looking at the pilots, the paraglider pilots, like, oh, these guys, they have balls, and I don't want to, to do the same with the rovalos, you know? I thought I survived that time, I don't want to survive another time, you know, right? It's like I'm gonna keep, I'm gonna keep looking, you know, how keep
looking and see how how it goes, but here and there I was flying, you know? Then I, I fall into the trees. Remember that photograph? Well, I fall that into the trees because the problem is that you fly the paraglider and you know how to fly and the thermals, and you get into a thermal and you just turn. It's like you turn and you want to go up, but finally, you know, you have these collapses and you don't know what to do. And and then, so I fall into the trees one day and I quit flying paragliders for a while. Then I, I saw pilots coming in with paragliders, more paragliders every time, you know?
The the days passed and more paragliders and more paragliders, so I, I never quit flying paragliders, but I not always chickened out. I felt uncomfortable being in the air, some it took it took me some time. Then I got a voodoo from an airwaves, yes. And so then I, I started, I started doing some cross country from El horrible wave, and, I saw Dickson White also when I was flying hang gliders, Dickson was one of the first Americans that make some trips to garder, for paragliders,and some people in town told me there are some gringos flying at nine o'clock in El Peñon and climbing a thousand meters and I said it's impossible we we always go to one o'clock with a hang glider and we we thought the thermals are from one o'clock to, but not nine o'clock.
Yes, they believe me, so I went there with my friend at nine o'clock and there were—they were flying off very high, Dickson and Granger banks with those rainbow at El farah gliders. Anna, Anna German friend give me one of his para gliders, like a school paraglider, very basic, and I jump in and fly towards them, and I reach them on the same thermal, and I jump in and And I flew to Valle because I knew the way, and I landed in Valle, and I was very excited. It was my first cross country flight from El Peñon to Valle, you know.
So I was really excited. And after that flight, Dixon came to me because they were trying to fly to Valle for the whole month and they couldn't make it. So I explained the way. I didn't explain the way the first time because Dixon was really, he didn't, I was on the road.
Hitching. Hitching. Yeah. And he didn't pick me up because he didn't know me. So I hate him, you know. I said, what? So I went to Peñon by my own flight to Valle and then they came to ask me. And I didn't. I didn't say nothing. They were flying in the wrong way because they went to the tanque de gas, the Jovan. Yeah. And fly. They tried to fly under the wind. Yes. Yeah, yeah. With the stability of the lake. Yeah. And you have to do it through the convergence. Yeah, yeah. So the second time I arrived to Valle again, the second day.
Yeah. Yeah. It was. Until the second day, they came really serious to ask me how I was doing that. So I start telling all these stories that I'm telling you now. Yeah. And then he was like, oh, wait. So he understand that I had that experience. Legitimate. So what happened, it was the next month, I was in Arizona with him. I went to visit him and really nice, you know, he opened his house to me and I was spending a lot of time with him, learning all the USHPA, whatever.
He gave me my first paragliding license from the USHPA and then we became friends somehow, you know. And so from there, I, I, I, uh, like,
uh, at the time I jumped
into paragliding. Wow. So it was in 2000 and two to, and in the year 2000, I really quit flying hang gliders. Yeah. I went to Italy. I went to the world hang glider paragliding championships in 1999 in Austria and pins go. Okay. Uh, to do the paragliding worlds. Um, and I from that, I, World Championships. I went to Italy for the hang gliding world, so I did both the same summer with with Chris Muller also. Chris and me were were the we we met, we flew the paragliding in Austria and also we flew the hang gliding in Italy both.
But that time I was sponsored by Nova because I would like to tell you this story because the Nova guys, my kung Balter holds me where all these Austrians, they came to Mexico in 97 to make his catalog of photographs. They wanted to do it; they were doing this catalog in many countries, so they thought, "Let's go to Mexico." So they contact me because the photographer, photographer Ulrich Grill, I'm—it's a friend—so he told me the Nova guys once, and so whatever, so I help them out.
So when they come, they told me, "Okay, these guys, our team, they don't want to fly in any flying site, they want whatever just for, for pictures." So they hire me, but they, but they didn't allow me to fly. I was just a driver, and so I start to hate them because after two, one week, I just was the driver driving around, and it was incredible to see them, you know, that because my kung and they were doing incredible stuff. They flew from the pyramids, and they flew in very amazing places. And then after a while, I was in the airport, and I was in the airport, I was just Primển Bay.
They never got there, and they let me to join them the next day. They will see the Malaysia, they give me a better glider, and next day, "Oh, he can fly! Oh, he can fly!" And they start to tell me, "Okay, you, you can, you have to do like this next day." And then the next day, thanking for such a roll, they didn't sell anything, and they said, "It's just a bit, do a full stall here and this." And the other were doing very organized, very professionals. And so after the trip, the all these, they were happy with their work, and they lend me a taxi, a tandem. They pay me very good, and they sponsor me for about six years.
They send me every year a new glider, the expert, and this and that. I flew in Austria, that world championships, one of the, there was like four or five prototypes, the X 79, very extreme paraglider, yeah, and Also, they modified it after the... it was named Krypton, the Krypton. So I used to fly that, like, I are also. So I was like, that well, I was, yeah, yeah, exactly. See, it was funny, and so I, I, I did those championships, and in 2000, after that championship hang gliding, I quit like only
paragliders, yes, and
Then was this, there was a Las del Hombre at that point, very much a going concern. It was, you know, that's the—can I imagine it then like it is now, or a much smaller and it was, but that was really still your business. Or at this point, were you still just free-flying and going to competitions? Well,
I have some... it's difficult to be a competition pilot and fly, flying, and also doing business, you know? Yes, difficult. Yeah, so what I did was I got like a good team. I work hard to make a team that knows the business and knows what we have to do, which one of the important things is that you have to put all in, like, in in a system. You have to have a program or system for everything, like...
How to teach is here, you know? So, we, I, what I did is like a manuals for everything and we, we train that, we, we learn and we, we get into us program is made by the government. It's called MM system, M mother and mother Nisa modern, which is from the tourism office. It's like ISO 2000, yeah, kind of where they teach how to manage a company for tourism purpose and so you put the whole company like in books and the system for everything.
Some of the, the techniques and or systems come from Japan, like the 5s for cleaning and having everything in place organized, so every it keeps a lot of time to, to teach and, and all the people since the guy who drives, the guy who cleans, the guy who is selling, so about keeps like maybe five years to get into this place, and now it's working perfect. Like, everybody knows what to do, and one of the main things that probably give Alice El hombre the big difference between the other companies is that since young, I used to always look for sponsors.
It's because I saw all sports, they have sponsors, you know, football, everything. So I said, paragliding must have sponsors, and it's very, as I tell you, that it still has a lot of impact into the people, a paraglider in Mexico at least. So we should put brands on the paragliders. So I work in that for many years, even in the hang gliders. I, I used to have many companies sponsoring me as a pilot, but it's not, it's not Interesting for a sponsor to just to sponsor one guy?
You need to a big companies; they want to spend lots of money. If you ask for one thousand dollars, they
don't even
Listen, but if you have a project like for a hundred thousand dollars, maybe they will look for it if it's interesting. So I start to work a lot, I work my ass off as you said, yes, for years until I got um, uh, Tell-Cell, the company of the biggest company in Mexico. The phone, I got three gliders for them and, uh, there, when I have these paragliders, three paragliders, and there was another, the marketing director of Nextel, which the, the um, competition came to Valle and saw this Tell-Cell, and he came to me and says, "I'm"
from from the competition, and I, uh, I don't want these gliders flying around. I want my company. So I said, "Okay, perfect, perfect. But it's gonna cost you." "Okay, no, it's not, it doesn't matter." So I teach him to fly also, and then they sponsor me for 10 years. They bought me every time, every three years, at least 10 to 15 paragliders, so the tandem paragliders, and they sponsor Monarca. And I think from there Dallas get a huge jump into the space.
And then it happened that the AT&T, the American big company telephone, bought by Nextel three years ago. So I was really worried because we didn't know what's gonna happen. But again, I have a lot of luck because the director of marketing, yeah. They, they came to to um rescue Nextel because actually, in Excel was getting out of the business. They have this like radio thing, yeah? And uh, the radio didn't work now with the WhatsApp and all that. So what they, so they came to rescue the company and the guy was like, the marketing director, was okay, this project out, this out, out, out like this until it gets to Alice the Lombre and says, "Wow, I want to learn." So he keep the project for another three years.
I teach him to fly and um, and then AT&T came and buy the company and I was like, "What's gonna happen?" And again, they, they put all projects out and saw our project and says, "Okay, because after 10 years, it's if a project runs for 10 years is because it's good, you know?" Yeah, so they keep it, we, they keep it for another, now it's three years.
It's good to know the history of this, because we all in it at home around the world. Everybody says, you know that you, Miguel, and your team, you run the best comps of anybody. You know, it's just so organized and it has sponsors, and I, I think you're the shining example of what could happen, you know? Is it's, it's it, but like you said, it's a lot of work. There's a lot of dedication, and uh, you are the master, I think.
Of well, I'm I'm always always grateful because because I I've been lucky, you know, but my father always says, "Lucky comes if you if you look for it, because if you stay in your home and you don't look for it, luck, it's not gonna come. You have to go and and seek it out." Yes,
Miguel, uh, I think that's a good note to finish on. A little bit of advice from your, from your dad... I, I, uh, this is a, a real pleasure to hear these stories. I didn't know hardly any of that. That's amazing. It's a, so fun to, to have this, this time with you and be able to share this new site with you. Uh, it's an exciting place to, to race paragliders. I think everybody here is just, uh, over the top happy, you know? So we have one more day. Uh, it looks like the weather is good and I think we should go, go fly. Yes.
Let's go, all right? Well, I just want to tell, um, the gringos, the American people, it's like I always look you as, uh, my all older brother, you know? You always have this incredible social way of doing things, organized. It's very different than my country, you know here is, it's like very different, but, uh, I, I learned all the professional, all my professional career, I really did it in the United States, you know, all professional stuff I learned in Silmar and Chris Santacroce invite me to Sun Valley, so I, I really learned a lot how to do the professional way in the United States and I, I'm always being will be very grateful to you guys and, uh, and
Uh, well, the project in Sapotiltik is is for you guys also, because uh, you are very welcome to come and if if you want to make tours and I I will help you out. No, I don't, I I'm not expecting to have a business for this; is just helping you to come with your bodies and fly here. I can help you whatever you need, so I I'm sure this will be like a
place like Valle, because Valle now it's
It's full, yeah. Another, another value, another. It's exciting to fly new places and learn new things, and makes you a better pilot. And yeah, so you're very welcome. Thank you, thank you, Miguel. And it's also an honor for me. Appreciate it. Me too. Thank you very much. Well,
I hope you enjoyed that, so cool! I just, man, I was smiling the whole time listening to Miguel recount those incredible stories. We got cut off way too early; I would have liked to keep going, going, and going, and going, but we were heading up for the last task down there in Zapolta Tech. Again, as I said at the top of the show, you've got to check this place out; just a fantastic place to race paragliders, so many possibilities, really cool venue. Many thanks to Jocky Sanderson for being the meat director there, and all the wonderful people who made that possible, and the incredible team at elast lombre. That was a real honor to be there, very special to be at the first one, and I can't wait to come down every year. As always, if you got something out of this show, this is a listener supported podcast. Yes, we only get funds from you, the listeners, so if you enjoyed it, you got something out of it, or one of the previous shows, or if you're just discovering the podcast, make sure you go back and check out the more than 55 episodes we've had now, with some of the best pilots in the world.
There is so much incredible knowledge there that you need to become a better, safer pilot who sends it hard, so check those out if you can support us. Awesome! If you can't, that's totally okay, but we'd love to see for you to support us. You can find those links on the cloudbasemayhem.com; that'll take you either to PayPal for a one-off donation, or you can sign up through patreon.com forward slash Cloudbase Mayhem, if you want to be a kind of a member of the support, and you can kind of set it and forget it there. And it's totally on us; you only pay when we put out content, and as a patron supporter, you get all kinds of bonus stuff, like the bonus episode with Chrigel and myself about the ex-alps and Larry Tudor magic bus show, and the recent one we just put out with Nikki longshore, who recently won the gecko challenge, and a lot more.
We've got more coming your way, and we'll see on the next show. Thanks so much, happy holidays.