Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloud-Based Mayhem. Really excited to bring you this show. Before we get into it, just a few little items of housekeeping. I wanted to remind everybody that we've got that new Spotify playlist up, the Cloud-Based Mayhem playlist. That's just yours to grab. You can find that on Spotify. You can also find it on the website and on the Facebook feed on Cloud-Based Mayhem. And then we still got this giveaway going. We're going to keep this going to the end of the month. I've got a Flymaster Vario, a B1, a little bit older one, but it still works great. And I've got a Power Traveler spare battery. I think that's 8,000 milliamp battery. I got the 2015 X-House, but it's brand new, never been used. So if you need an extra battery for when you're flying or for vol biv or whatever, that's there. And then I've also got a NOCO 15, sorry, 5-watt solar panel, which is a little light.
You need a little bit more than that in my experience for proper vol biv. But definitely enough to keep your phone up or an extra battery up for a quick little one or two day trip. Pretty lightweight. And that's brand new. And that comes with a couple different batteries. So now we're going to do that one instead, rather than doing the ratings and stuff like what we've done in the past is just spreading it via social media. So, you know, if you spread it on a Facebook group or put it in a forum or just tell your friends and you come up with some kind of cool little jingle or a way that people will actually listen to the show and maybe get some new listeners, just make sure I know about it. And you'll be. One of those three great things. Again, I'll announce that at the end of the month. Social media, we've been getting, we've had a few people put their hand up to help us out with social media. Thank you so much. I think we've got the UK, most of Europe and where else?
Romania, a couple of the places covered, but I'm still looking for somebody to help us out in North America. I think Australia, New Zealand, we're pretty good, but I'm just looking for somebody to kind of put, you know, when we put up a new show to just spread it around a little bit on the different Facebook groups and that kind of thing, the different paragraphs. Hang gliding and clubs. So if you want to help us do that, that would, I would really appreciate it. It'd be a great way to support the show. And yeah, let's get into this talk. I just got a phone with Zandy. He teaches SIV and he's a, he's a test pilot for Icaro. He teaches SIV in Gurlitson and Acro. I've been in the game since the late eighties, has a fascinating history. I've been a test pilot for many, many years. So in this show, we get into SIV and maneuvers that are really important.
And how, how a wing becomes kind of from paper to a real product and through certification and hits the mass market. Lots of fascinating things. We talk, we don't really talk about accidents, but we talk about how to avoid them. And he's just, he's got, he's got a lot of good perspective because he's been at it for a long time. This came to us through one of our Patreon listeners. If you're a Patreon supporter, you get to put in for somebody you'd really like to see on the show. And I try as hard as I can to make that happen. So, here is one of those. Please enjoy this talk with Zandy straight from Gurlitson. I think you're going to dig it.
Zandy, welcome to the mayhem. It's so awesome to have you on the show. It's, I really appreciate your patience. It's been a couple months and we've been trying to link up and, and make this happen. Shout out to Warner for introducing me to you. I, I didn't actually put it together until recently that one of my, one of my Bibles acrobatics was actually coauthored by you. So, uh, it's, it's exciting for me to have you on the show. Why don't, why don't we start off with, um, you know, for those who aren't familiar with your background, cause I know you, we were just talking before we hit record, uh, your backgrounds in acro and testing and, and being a test pilot, but, um, take me back to your beginnings. You know, how did it, how'd you get into flying and, and get us up to speed?
Hey, nice to be on your show. Thank you for the invitation. Yeah, it's great to talk to you. The story of my flying thing, it, it began when I was a little child, you know, it's like this typical dream when a, when, when a child starts to run and to see and detect things. And then suddenly this dream is coming out in, in this child's brain, you know, to, wow, to, to fly, to get airborne, to feel like a bird and something. But, you know, as a child, you don't have the chances to take off and fly. Maybe you have a father who has the paragliding school, but my, my dad. Yeah, they didn't have it, but he was a passionate, um, radio controlled airplane pilot. So he was totally in, in the construction, the airplane stuff and taking me to the airfield every weekend where he tried out his, his new planes.
And that was my contact actually with, with flying. And I was, I also got totally into it and most was making my own designs, my own radio controlled models. And then with 16 or 17, I think I was like, yes, my father brought a paraglider as a present and then I took it on a hill and, and I, I knew actually how flying is working somehow because I was with these airplanes around and the first takeoff went well. And then I was on the beginner's hill making my first steps with 16 or 17 with the paraglider behind the family's house. There was no, no flights cool around or something.
And what year was this? Um, what year was this? It was 1986 or 80s, uh, 1989.
Wow. So right back in the beginning. Yeah. Okay, cool.
Yeah, this was the beginning and my mother thought it was dangerous and she said, no, don't, don't make experiments with that thing anymore. You stay on the ground, but I had my motorbike. And so, I, I tried it, my paraglider in the wood. And I said to my mom, I go trust promoter biking. And then I went into the And, to the mountain, then I made, my two flights there. And I went to these hills that we have been before with the airplanes. We knew where the thermos there and started to love this, the paraglider and, and, and, and everything worked out in the beginning. Because I had my basics already from the, the control things. And. And in 1995, I made the license, the paragliding license.
I went to the flight school and said, hey, I need a license, actually, because once I was landing in the farmer's field and I had no license, and he called the police, and I got in some little troubles.
Was this in Karlitzen, or where were you back then?
My hometown is half an hour away from Karlitzen to east, east Klagenfurt is my hometown, and there are some hills around with 1,000 or 1,500 meters, and there I made my first steps. I also knew about Karlitzen, but I knew also that you just can fly there if you have a license, and then so in 1993, 4, 5, I managed to get this license. And to continue with that hobby, actually, since that time it was just a hobby because my normal profession then was – Normally, I was a primary school teacher. That's what I've learned, actually, in the beginning to have a normal job, but I never did it.
I stuck in paragliding.
Okay, gotcha.
In 2001, 2002, I had my plan, so just like how can I live from paragliding? Okay. Because you need your mind. You need your money to stay alive somehow, and so I tried to manage this with some tandem flights. I made my first SIVs for students, and so all this started in 2002, yes. So up until that point,
were you still teaching in primary school? Yes, so in
that transformation period, I did both, actually, yes, and then I quit this job of teaching and stuff.
I started to become a professional paraglider. Gotcha. Cool. Yes, yes. More exciting. It was quite funny.
And define professional paraglider. Was it more your own personal flying, or was it more with the school and the tandems and teaching?
Yes, you should find the mix between earning some money with flying and otherwise spend as much time as possible in the air to get experience, to come further, to learn. You know, some maneuvers or to fly bigger distance or whatever. So it was always a mixture of learning and getting experience, but on the other hand, also working like flying tandems or teaching simple stuff in SIVs, you know.
Okay. And were you kind of, at that stage, kind of early 2000s, were you more drawn to cross country flying, acro, or kind of all of the above?
Oh. It was a mixture of everything. But these gliders, they were not so good in performance, actually, in these times. And suddenly, I was more and more motivated when I came to cloud-based to make some maneuvers, to make a spiral or wing-overs or asymmetric spiral looping, full stores, spins, like these maneuvers that we were flying in the past when we didn't know how a sat is working or something. And actually… And actually, I got more addicted to this maneuver flying, yes. I still, also nowadays, I fly cross country, but just for testing prototypes and making comparison to the other wings.
But the flying acro was… It became more passion in 2002, yes. And I totally got into it then in 2003.
Okay. And then, so the last… So 2003, 2004. I understand. I understand you started working for Icaro in 2004.
Yes. Before, I was flying for Independence Gliders and some wings of change and Edel, Edel, the old brand from Markus Gründhammer.
And then, in 2004, I switched to Icaro, yes. And that's where I'm still now.
Okay. And how do you kind of divvy up time these days, you know, between teaching, and your own personal flying, like with acro and that kind of thing, or with cross country, did you compete as well?
I competed some national cross country competitions, but also just for getting knowledge out of my prototype and what I was working on. Because all the time, when I come to the flying mountain, I have at least two or three prototypes in my car. It's like maybe a freestyle prototype, an ENB prototype, a prototype for paragliding, paramotoring, or beginner's wing, or whatever. And so, I have the plans for today. And if I need to see how the performance in full accelerated speed with my prototype is, or how is it climbing in thermals to compare it to the others. So, that's why then I go to a cross country competition to make this comparison.
But I don't take a serial wing and put my flight on the XC contest, for example. I always have these prototypes where I'm working on. Yeah, nowadays it is like that. Summer is completely different to wintertime. In summertime, I'm really, really busy with SIVs. And since two years, I have my own landing field and my own little bar at Galitzin. It needs a lot of time to organize that. I have eight tandem pilots flying there for me. And during my SIVs, I also make lots of testing work. And now, when autumn and winter is coming, I have a work office designing harnesses.
Wow, busy guy.
That's what I do in wintertime. I mean, designing harnesses. The Acro harness is really getting into production right now. cross country harness is coming next year. Beginner's harness is also coming next year. So, now in the wintertime, I'm sewing a lot and making a few test sessions on the Canarian Islands to try out the new prototype. But I'm more into construction work in wintertime. And springtime, it's big test sessions all the time. And summer, testing, working, SIVs. No time for Acro competitions anymore. It's nothing.
Yeah, and these days, it requires so much training, doesn't it? It's tough.
I'm 41 already. Yeah.
I don't feel too bad for you. I'm 45. Goodness gracious. Time flies, doesn't it? Well, hey, you brought up a lot of things that I wanted. Dive a little bit deeper into. But first, I don't think many of our listeners are very familiar with, one, just what it is to be a test pilot. But also, just how can you kind of take us through briefly? I know there's a lot of stops along the way, and there's a lot of elements to this. But what's involved in bringing a wing from dream stages where it's just a thought in your mind to a reality? And also, if you could. Maybe give a little bit more background on Acro as well, because I'm not very familiar with their wings. What are they known for?
What are one of their most selling wings?
Most selling wings is the ENB category with Acro. So that's where they focus on, because the ENB category is the biggest market, actually, when you want to sell gliders in a big amount. You need everything in the ENB class. You need a low. ENB glide, medium ENB, high ENB. In the future, you also need beginner gliders, a really slow and brave one, and another one with more esprit and a bit more speed. So this is the main market we are working on. And all the rest, like Acro and freestyle gliders, it's also a kind of market, but not a really big one. And the cross country wings, ENC class.
It's quite interesting. And the END is also a big thing for promotion and for getting good results in the big competitions. And the knowledge, what you get there, you can put it also a bit into the serial class.
But if you want to just sell wings, you need to focus on normal gliders. E and A, B, and some C gliders. Yes, and that's what Acro is focusing on. If we bring out a new glider. Same like all the time. The boss, the guy on the computer, so the guy who's making the buttons on the software, so the designer, and the main test pilot is sitting together and we create a plan. You know, what do we need in our new glider? Because nowadays, you should have not so many lines. Everything should be light. You should have best performance. You should have the best passive safetiness you can get out of it.
And then you get the first prototype. And so when you get the first prototype, you have to calculate about one or two years of working on that project until it's ready. Okay. And the process, the process is like when you get your new product out from the factory, you just lift it off in the wind and you see, is it flying or not? The wrinkles or is the canopy right clean? So how is the base? And then you start to work on the base to get the wrinkles out, to make the first glides, to see how it's reacting on the break, what the designer make with this new concept.
And then you start to get all out, to get the wrinkles out, to get a good performance, to get a nice handling. For that, you need at least three or four prototypes until this thing has a nice flying. And then you have to get the first prototype out. And then that's the big part. You have to get it through the certification. So that means that on one day I make about 30 to 50 full accelerated collapses. And in every collapse, I fly close to the canopy. It's like it's, it's, it's really hard actually to, if you have a glider with a good character and, and you think that that might be the taste of the pilots, what they want to have out there.
Yeah. The feeling, what the glider gives you when you fly, um, to get this project also through the maneuvers and there's then a tricky part to, to get it, to get the maximum passive safety and to keep the good character of the glider. For sure. You can make some loops in, in, in the, in the, uh, triangle backwards on, on the risers to make it slow. And then the maneuvers might be good, but it flies like. Uh, like a pregnant cow or something, you know, all the character is gone. Um, so the, the really tricky part is like to find where is the glider reactive, where, when, when, when I make some changes there and there is the reaction that what I want.
And can I keep the character and the good performance and the, and this is not working just with making loops down there. So you have to. You have to change the bands inside. You have to change the tension on the leading edge on the, on, in the front. You have to put out some rigging foils or put some more in. You have to change the position of the A, B and C lines on, on all the parts of the wing in the middle, in the star below and everywhere. So you have so many options and you need to find the right way. And sometimes this costs you more than a year of just making maneuvers. Collapses, uh, changing after every flight. Sometimes you, you change your glider for one hour, then you go up again for the next flight.
You land down again, you change it for one more hour. You go up again and that's the testing day actually. And at the end of the day, you are not happy because normally how is a good flying day ending with a perfect flight, you know, but in, but in that thing, sometimes you don't have perfect flights. You just. Forward from this. Car every time. And it's really depressed. And the designer is on the landing field, watching you falling down all the time. And he says, yeah, I have a brilliant idea now what to change. And then all the problems will be gone. And you know that he isn't right, but you have to do what you go up with the camera car again and think about the next flight and you crash again, or you don't crash, but you fall close to the canopy in the colors.
And. Sometimes it's quite frustrating to have a period of weeks where you just fall next to the canopy all the time, because you cannot manage the thing with the full accelerated collapse. But then once you find a little way and you follow that, and then with the time, with the time you get it managed somehow, and you would never expect that this bitch of a wing could, I can also behave really, really nice. You just need to find a way. How, how is the wing reacting and where is he reacting when you change something and that's different with every model you have.
And how long on average would it take, uh, you know, I'm, I imagine it's pretty similar for all the companies. How long from, you know, on paper to certified wing that a year, three years.
Yeah, it depends if, if I want to make a completely new product, like, um, how. High performance E and B wing where I don't have anything in my program right now. I start with the really, I start from zero, so that can take at least two, three years up to 30 prototypes. But if I have a nice model already in my program and I just make changes. So for, for this and that, for another version, this, this, you can make in two, three months.
Okay. Okay.
That's what I got you. So.
Yeah. And take me. Through the, the, so you've, your wings done, you've done all the testing. You're you're it's the final prototype. You're ready to send it off to air turquoise or wherever you send it to get the certification. What happens there? What, what are, what are the maneuvers that the wing has to go through for the certification? And who does it?
Uh, every certification company has, has different test pilots. I know them all from the past. Some, I know from a competition, some, I know from. Exhibitions or something. Um, and it's quite, it's quite tricky nowadays because today we have three certification companies. So it's kind of a market. It got a bit like a market because in the past we just had the DHB and everybody had to go there to get the certification. Now we have three. And so the, these three companies, companies, they also don't want to lose their customers, like the paragliding, right? Sure. And so, um, when, when I make a project like this with one prototype, I go to Allen solar with the other proto, uh, with another project, I go to the DHB with another project, I go to the EPR.
So I switched to certification companies every time. Um, just to see if they are testing in the same mode or are they doing it different in some way, but at the end they tested quite good. And. Yeah. And they take it quite serious. Also, that's really important. I
understand that the testing process, you know, used to be quite subjective depending on the pilot, but now it's really, um, what do they actually do there? Because it's, it's really like, you know, you, you do this and you, you can't do anything for X amount of time. Is that right? Like you have an asymmetric for, you know, frontal and the pilot, the test pilot is, you know, they, is it, is it still quite subjective? Depending on the pilot skill, or is it really, is it pretty fair?
In the past, sometimes with some projects, um, I thought the testing method, uh, is quite subject subjective and it's not quite fair, but with the future, uh, everybody learned. And I saw then as a responsible test pilot who says, okay, this wing is safe. Let's put it to the certification and to get our, um, certification like ARB. Um, if you have a comp, if you have a safe wing, if you have a safe project, it cannot fail the test. It's just, if you have a wing, what is quite tricky to handle, or it, when you make five collapses, four are okay, but there is just that one when the angle of the collapse is not the right, um, the wing is behaving, not nice.
And so the test pilot says then, okay, that's, that's not safe. So then there can be a subjective part, but at the end, I know if my. My glider is safe in every position in the air. I won't fail any tests and, and the test will be objective actually. And they have cameras down there. When we make the test, I'm always on the landing field, watching the pilot flying my glider. Um, they have their stripes on the, on the lines to measure out angles and stuff. So, um, and before I give my wing to the certification guy. I go through with him all the details. I tell him everything about the wing and I show him videos of my test flights if he wants.
So, um, to not to put him under pressure too much, because as a certification pilot, it's also quite dangerous. Somehow you fly out with a completely new product, you know, nothing, and then you should go for the asymmetric collapse. And then there will be the big surprise. So, um, also the test pilots day. They start quite smooth with the maneuvers and the progress with every flight to, to find out if there are mistakes or not. But if you have worked quite well in the development, there won't be any mistakes and the glider will pass the certification without a problem.
And do the, do the, do the maneuvers change as the rating of the wing changes? In other words, do the, do the test pilots have to fly different maneuvers on a D than a B?
No, the maneuvers, they are all the time the same.
Okay. Okay. So the rating. The rating comes from how the wing reacts, depending on each maneuver that they have,
what, what. How the wing reacts when the pilot makes no reaction. Yes. And
how many maneuvers
are there? The pilot is allowed to make reactions.
Okay. Okay. Gotcha. Um, and how many maneuvers are there that, that the wing has to go through?
About 20, about 20 maneuvers. Okay. Yes. And
what's the most, what's the one that is the most problematic?
As all the time, well, most of the time it, the full accelerated side and front collapse, or sometimes the spiral, some gliders still have the tendency to make, uh, they will spirals. Okay. That's the two, uh, the two main parts where a glider can fail. Um, all the rest is the under accelerated things. They are, they are on the safe side all the time. It's just, if you go full on speed bar and, and destroy the glider. The thing completely above your head. That's the most tricky thing.
Gosh. And I, and I would think, um, you know, so I, I mostly only fly two liners and comp gliders and they're, they're, they're incredibly hard to frontal with, you know, just by grabbing the A's. I understand in the testing process, they put lines on the leading edge so you can just pull it. But, um, I would imagine even that is quite subjective. I mean, depends on how hard they pull or, or really the, everybody kind of in tune with, okay, this is how. Well,
there is a, um, there is a, uh, sign in the wing for the side and the front collapse they make, uh, with the, with some, with some tape, they make markings on the wings and on, on, into this field, the test pilot has to pull the maneuver. So for example, front collapse, there is a mark on the wing on 30%, um, of the wing and 50%. So in between this. Uh, two markers, the front collapse, uh, should be done. So then the test pilot makes it on, on the first marking, then in the middle, then in the marking behind to, and then it doesn't matter how hard he pulls or something. He just have to pull the maneuver into that field, this testing field, same, like with the site call-ups.
There are markers on the wings and the test pilot test to fly the call-ups exactly on, on these markings.
Okay. Okay. Okay. I understand. Okay. And then from
these markings, um, the reaction of the glider is, um, makes the certification.
So what, what would happen if say Icaro, you know, the, you, you got a C that you're really excited about and it goes to testing and it passes everything but one. And then, and then that, the one that doesn't pass puts it into a D. Would you take it back to, uh, would you just take it back and, and clean it up to, to still get it to a C? Or would you just release it as a D?
Um, that's actually also, uh, um, not my decision alone. That's the decision then also of the boss to, uh, have a, have a compromise or not. And in the past we had, we had a, well, a problem with, uh, with a freestyle wing or the maneuvers of this freestyle wing. They were E and A and B just a spiral was deep because it made two turns more after releasing the break. And. Then the company said, yes, well, let's, let's keep it in D because it's just freestyle and it's, it's not a big deal for, for this type of pilot. Right. But for sure, if you're, if I have a wing for E and B pilots, for sure, everything must be in the, in the E and B category.
Sure. Okay. Gotcha. Um, that's fascinating. Let's switch now. You, you teach a lot of SIV. And, um, the, the last person we spoke with who talked a lot about SIV was, was Jocky Sanderson. I'd love to find out because you started teaching it, you know, before, uh, you know, before the shark nose technology and the kind of pyramidal shaped line. So things were a lot different when you first started teaching it to now, I I'd love to just hear the progression of, of SIV, kind of what you've seen change. And yeah, maybe, maybe I know it's hard to do this verbally, but maybe you could take. Take us through kind of a typical SIV course with you. You know, how many days, what maneuvers are you trying to get everybody through?
Um, yeah, kind of take us through an S one of your SIVs.
Well, um, the SIV is starting on Monday and it ends on Sunday. Okay. And so all the, all the good days we have in this week, we use it for flying. At least we should have three or four days in the forecast of good flying weather to start the course. If you, if you, if you're doing, if you're doing a good flying weather, you should have three or four days to start the course. If we just have two days of flying weather and the rest is raining or the bad wind, the course is canceled. So I just carry out the course when I see my students can fly at least between seven and 11 or 12 flights in this week. Then it makes sense for me because just talking and sitting in the simulator, but not much flying, it doesn't make a lot of sense.
So if the weather is good, I meet my 14 motivated pilots in my room and it's a totally individual training mode. That means that I have pilots who made the license last year and they start with their first collapses and little spirals, wing overs and stuff. And I have pilots who just want to get the last information from rhythmic to infinity and also some help in such things. So hilly connections, for example, and all the rest is in between. So that means no matter which level pilot has, it can come into my course and he will get his individual trainings plan. And that's also how we start then the course.
Like we make individual interviews and where we get to target of the pilots to make the training plan and see if it's realistic, if he gets it in one week or not. And so we build up a training plan for every pilot. Every pilot gets his individual maneuver briefing and also the beginners, they also like to listen if I explain actual maneuvers or stuff like this. So everybody learns a lot in quite short time, like six or seven days. And so the pilots, they are really motivated. Then they have lots of information and they have a strict flight plan in my SIV. So the pilot don't. They don't go up and they don't know which maneuver they were going to make in the next flight.
So everything is written down on plan. Everybody knows which maneuver comes on the next step. And so we go that through with 14 students. Everybody makes on a good day, three flights a day. So at the end of the day, I'm really exhausted. And at six in the afternoon, it's the course is ending. I need to recover a few hours and in the next day at eight o 'clock in the morning. We start again.
Okay. And what would, what would it kind of a, you know, take me through your, your, your kind of generic pilot, maybe a 50 hour pilot, 70 hour, you know, somebody who's pretty new, who's doing their first SIV, you know, where do you hope to get them by the end of the week?
The most important things for me is that he gets the full, full accelerated frontal and, and side collapse managed. And to get the spiral totally managed. Okay. So that's the most important things for me. If he needs to come down quite quick, he needs to know how to, how to fly a spiral and he needs to know how to recover the accelerated side collapse. So this is the really basics. What I want to teach for sure. Wing overs are also quite important, but you cannot learn high wing overs in a few days. That's not possible. But also to get the first. Steps into wing over and see how the glider is behaving in this quite complex movement.
But the real basics are the collapses and the spiral.
And would you, would you, would you hope to get them through doing any kind of full, full stalls or acro stalls, or is that too advanced for that first week?
Well, it depends. It's, I cannot say if this is for all pilots, but more or less the, the younger pilots, the younger generation. Um, they learn quite fast and they have good progression and with the, with some of them, we, we also make really nice fly back tail slides and little dynamic stores in also in the first week of the SIV and others who are a bit older and, and don't have this, this fitness also to make everyday free flights. They are tired also. After one or two flights, they want to have a break. So depending on, on, on this level that the pilot learns or the younger pilots, they learn more than, than, than the older generation.
For sure. I also see, I get older. I don't have the energy anymore. Like 20 years ago during the day, it is changing a bit with, with the time.
What, what, what maneuvers, um, did you use to teach back in, you know, the kind of mid 2000s? That you don't teach now, are there any things that aren't relevant anymore?
Um, I teach, I teach some maneuvers. I teach them different, but, um, there is not a maneuver where I say I, I don't do it today anymore. Uh, if the owner manual says every maneuver is okay, for sure. We have some wings where they say beast oil is not quite good when you, when you can read it in the description of the wing, but all the rest. Um, I teach for sure the maneuvers in, in a different way because also the wings and the constructions changed, but the maneuvers, they are the same, like in 2000 or so.
Okay. And is SIV not, you know, to me, I've had this attitude for years that, you know, if you're flying cross country, you're just taking way too much risk with your life if you don't do very regular SIV. And so I was surprised to hear from, from Jockey who likes. Like yourself teaches SIV all the time and has made all the videos. And I think is a terrific SIV instructor. He didn't actually agree with that. He really felt like, you know, yes, it's, it, I, in an ideal world, it, it's important for everybody, but it's not for everyone. You know, that, that for some people, it's just, it, uh, they can still enjoy flying and they can still be a good pilot and, and not do SIV because it may be, it's just too traumatic or too scary.
Well, what's your opinion on that?
That's also, I see also this development, but also more in this, in this older flying generation. So, um, I know 10 or 15 or 20 years ago, the full store was not a maneuver. It was just a horrible thing. What can happen in the air and, and is shaking. And so 20 years ago, my friends and nobody wanted to make full store or something. It's just now this new generation. Now they grew up with this thing and it's totally different nowadays. Um, the young generation at first, they learn to fly maneuvers and then they learn how to take off and land. And then they learn how to thermal. And actually that, that will be a completely different flying generation than the older guys who fly since more than 20 years.
They never visit any SIV. They never made any full store, but they are still flying also. Really, really big, um, distances. But for me, this is, this is quite a risky thing because if, if I would fly with the attitude, like, okay, I'm, I'm really high, I'm fully on speech bar. But now if something happens, I don't have a plan what to do. Just maybe throwing the red stick. But this is a big thrill also for me.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. It is for everybody. Uh, yeah. Okay. Well, then
there's a lot of people around there who will never make a full store. But for sure, they will fly for more than 10 years in, in the future and make their flights like all the time, you know?
Hmm. So what, what's your, you know, now, instead of the 50 to 70 hour pilot, maybe you have the 200 or 250 hour pilot who's maybe coming to you to learn rhythmic sats and helicos and maybe some more advanced stuff. You know, what, what, what do you, what, what do you like to see in, in pilots that may, I don't know if you have this term there. You probably do, but we call it intermediate syndrome, you know? So you have, you have somebody who, and we talk about that a lot on this show is I find it pretty fascinating, but you know, you've gotten through the beginner stuff. You've gotten through the, you know, the, the time where you, you have no idea what you don't know. And now, you know, now, you know, enough to be dangerous and, uh, and, you know, you're kind of pushing it and you're trying to learn new things.
You know, what, what's your advice? What, what do you see in that pilot that, that makes you a little bit nervous? And how do you rectify it? How, how do you, you know, take, take me through that pilot a little bit.
Yeah, that's also, I needed to make my experience also with that in, in, in the last 10, 15 years of making SIVs. In the beginning, I want, wanted to give the pilot everything what I knew in the fastest way of progression. But I also saw that sometimes it's too much for the pilots. They want too much. And they don't see their, their own limits and go much more over their own limits. And then it can get quite dangerous in very short time. So today it's, it's quite important for these pilots to stay more with the basic stuff to get it a hundred percent managed and then go to the next level.
Some, some pilots, they want, uh, um, they don't want to spend lots of time. In training for just a simple helical, they want to, they want to make twisted heli connections and this and that. Uh, so, but it's better to focus on the basic stuff until you have it 100 % and then you can get to the next step. And for that, you need much time and the pilots, they don't want to, they, they, they want to be champion in one, two years, but not in 10 years. So that's sometimes their, their, their motivation, you know, that the faster they progress. And the better it is, but you know, the speech, there are lots of young and good pilots around, but there are not a lot of good old pilots.
Yeah. Yeah. No bold old pilots. Yeah, exactly. What maneuver do you like to see a pilot really, really have down? In other words, you know, a maneuver that's going to translate into success, whether that be cross country thermaling or just pure safety.
Well, I think there are, there are two. Two types of maneuvers. What, what, what makes a good skilled pilot? It's full stall and wing overs. Okay. It's like when you, when you, when you are able to, to maneuver your glider through these two maneuvers in a perfect harmonic way. Um, you have really understood this, this, this quite difficult pendulum, actually, what, what we have with our paraglider with this, um, with this. Yeah. Um, weight down there as a pilot. So actually it's a big pendulum and, and, and you need to understand this and with wing overs and stories, you, you really can give good basics, um, for lots of successful and nice flights.
And my students, if they, if they make nice stories and, and, and wing overs, they, I'm, I'm really happy with them because I know how hard it is in the beginning to learn. And I think,
and I think there's so, in some ways underappreciated how, how difficult, uh, you know, a really good wing over really does say that you're a pretty good pilot, isn't it? I mean, it's, you, you, you can't just, you can't just get lucky on a wing over, you know, you really have to understand that there's a lot going on there. And once you, when, when you get it, it's, it's magical. It's a, it's a beautiful maneuver. Now let's talk about kind of the expert, you know, the halo syndrome, you know? The pilots that are a thousand hours plus have a lot of experience. They come to you because they're having trouble nailing the infinite or something. You know, what, what's a kind of a common problem you see at that level? And how do you, how do you deal with that pilot?
In the past, pilots were coming to me and said, Sandy, I do so nice rhythmic sets, but as soon as I get really straight, close to infinity, my brain says no. And then I stopped the glider. So I just need you. And your voice and under my helmet to go through this, uh, difficult point. And then I will manage the infinity tumbling. Sandy, can we make two, three flights? And in the beginning I did it because I thought, okay, my voice will be stronger than his brain. And he, I can get him into this infinity, um, when you were, but I had it then three times where the pilots had a stronger brain than my voice. And so this, they met, uh, they made a little. So they came maybe from 170 to 175 degrees, but then their brain was again, stronger.
The blockade came again and they stopped it in the really baddest moment you can stop. And they felt quite close into it, but they felt close by the canopy and thank God nothing happened. They threw the rescue and landed in the water. Everything was safe. Um, but then I thought, okay, it's, it's not like flying with a. The control airplane, because there I have to come on all the time. It's still this communication system. What can be, uh, what can have a failure sometime. As soon as the pilot starts to think again, when he has his, his fears in, in that maneuver nowadays, I just teach rhythmic anymore, 270 degrees.
And I tell to the pilots, the infinity, my friend, you have to work out on your own. I cannot go with you on the voice. Because, um, I know what can happen. And actually, since all the SIVs and acro courses I made, I had no accidents at all. And I want to keep it like this. And if I continue with motivating pilots to go from rhythmic, uh, to infinite, just with my voice, the risk is too big, actually. And maybe sometimes there are some students where I can help and they get the infinity in short time. And that's good. But what they experience. Oh, so. I made that there are lots of pilots out there who think, ah, I, I bike Sunday for one day. I just need a few words for him. And then I have to infinity faster than the others, but that's the wrong attitude.
And, and the way of thinking you, you won't get quite far. So especially with this, uh, quite technical and dangerous thing, the pilots need to take their time and, and to have, they have to make this mental training. And so having the mindset of, okay, I need to decide what to do next is going to be a challenge. And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and that's the thing that you, you have to take into consideration in how you can say like, um, uh, you know, training stuff. And, and fight against the fear to let the glider shoot when it has energy. And you just can do it by really serious and safe training. And you, you, you cannot force it, you know, this maneuver.
Zandia the, the, um, you, you've been at this game a long time. I'm sure you've seen, you know, too many accidents as we all have. What would be your advice? advice you know i always ask this question you know if you could look back to your 50 hour self you know what what's it what advice do you wish you would have taken or do you wish you would have gotten but being an instructor and you know you've done all this instructing what would be the advice you'd want to pass on to the listeners and you know to to help them you know be one of the older pilots that that hasn't had an accident you know what what are the what are the kind of the common threads or the themes that you see that lead to mistakes yeah
the advice would be don't play too much if we should have fun in this sport our sport should be safe and we are just a guest up there when we are flying and we should never start to play unserious things with the nature or with our glider we when we want to make something we should prepare everything and ourselves quite good for a new thing and we shouldn't do it in a quite risky way so safety safety is cool i think safe safety first and we know we we all know we can we can everybody can enter a maneuver no problem to enter when you it's just a question can you also exit the maneuver so every new thing what do you want to learn or need to do is it a cross country flight or is it a maneuver prepare yourself 100 don't fly out think nothing and just pull just prepare 100 ask the pros read books watch videos make mental training prepare everything you need to have a plane a but also plan b and maybe also plan c if plan a and b doesn't work and with that preparation should work
that's that's very applicable to cross country obviously to hope listeners put that together i'm sure they did but um yeah okay great advice If someone wanted to tackle acro, and it's quite tricky for us here in the States because we don't have a lot of water to train over. There's a few spots, but, you know, I know where you live there in Curlison. We flew by it in the Ex-Alps down near Villach there. It's just ideal. You've got a gondola. You've got a big lake. You've got a lot of height. But how would some, you know, like I know, you know, the guys who really train hard will go to a place like Organia and train over the dirt because you can just reload. You know, you can get so much more time than you can at, say, a Garda or a Curlison. But, you know, when the younger generation comes to you and wants to learn, you know, all of it, they want to get – they're a pretty new pilot, but they're totally addicted to acro.
What would you suggest for that pilot in terms of taking that on? You know, what are the steps? And, you know, is it – how much of that should be done with an instructor, you know, with somebody like you on the radio talking to them?
Well, it depends. There are guys who don't need an instructor at all, and they have still good reflexes. And today, nowadays, you know, the book is out. The acro knowledge is on Trust Acro and on YouTube and everywhere. So, actually, if you know how a glider is working, you can also go through the internet and book and stuff, and you can try it on your own also. It's not a problem. I learned acro and the maneuvers completely on my own. There was nobody who told me how to do it. So, I went through everything and found the best way out how to manage the maneuver. That's the one thing. And there are also pilots, you know, because this life is quite expensive somehow if you book courses, if you travel around,
you make this and that. And this young generation, they are really motivated to fly, but they don't have this budget, actually, to fly. All that stuff. And Görlitz is one of the cheapest places for flying acro over the water. So, we have lots of pilots there who are totally motivated, but they don't really have the money to make courses and stuff. But we have a nice community there where the older, the more experienced guys, they take the younger ones beside and show them everything. That's also what I spread out there on this flying site, Görlitz. I say to the experienced. Take the younger ones, explain them everything, and don't make the hero, just explain them everything, and they will come further.
And that's a quite good system that's working there. Everybody helps the other one. It's a quite good community. And so, at the end, the pilot at least has to ask himself, what does he want to do? Is it his biggest target to make the first place in the World Cup one time? Or does he want just to make everything? A few nice, good maneuvers. And if you want to compete in the World Cup, for sure, you need to train. If you start from zero, at least one, two, yeah, really motivated guys leave Görlitz after two years already and go to Organia and continue there. But actually, yes, you will see where you are when you spend some years in training, like four, six, five years of training.
If you go through quite hard and you are ready for competition, then you have made a really, really big step and experience if you have survived this three or four or five years. Because lots of them, they stop in the middle of the progression because they have a bad accident, they have bad experience or whatever. So, if 100 motivated pilots come to Görlitz, maybe 20 or 30 continue. A few years in Organia, but the rest has seen how much time and energy and motivation it costs to go through this whole procedure to be a good acro pilot. And then they see, okay, they have a job, they have a family maybe, or they have also a normal life besides, so there is not much time for training.
Yeah, it's a young
man's game, isn't it? Yeah.
I'm not familiar with acro wings. In cross country wings, there was this huge jump in 2009 that literally in some ways kind of made a 100-mile flight was kind of a big deal. And then just overnight, it was like 200 miles, a big deal. Has there been the same kind of jump in acro wings? And then also, where do you see both wings going with your development in Icaro? Do you see another big jump like that coming down the pipeline?
Well, also after the infinity tumbling, we thought, okay, now we have reached the end and what will come next now, you know? And I see lots of potential also in the future because the materials are changing. And with the materials, also our gliders are changing and with new gliders, we can make new maneuvers. We made lots of experiments. We made experiments with prototypes in the past, like we flew with completely closed canopies, like small, small pieces where the air can flow in, but it will never can flow out. And with these wings, you have lots of performance in some maneuvers, but for other maneuvers, it doesn't work at all.
But we see some possibilities for the future. And I wouldn't say that there is an end.
I'm sure. I'm sure there will be another big wave coming in the next three or four years with new inventions of the companies with, for sure, better gliding performance and also maybe better safety. That's it, safety. Both in cross country and also in actual flying. It's not over.
That's perfect. Our
gliding is quite young. It's 20 or 30 years right now, isn't it?
Yeah, exactly. It began in
1985 or something. It's too early to
say, oh, yeah, it's all been done, isn't it? It's fascinating. It feels like we're just getting started. Well, Danny, that's a great place to end. I think that leaves us thinking good thoughts about the future. Is there anything else you want to add maybe about your company or about your SIVs before we close or any other? You've given some great advice. Any last advice to our listeners before we close? And then I look forward to doing some flying with you this next spring. I'm going to be over in Gerlitz and doing some training. So I'm quite excited about that.
That would be awesome. Yeah, but you told it already. Well, it's not an advice. It's an invitation for all the pilots out there. Come to Gerlitz and come to my Flieger base. Enjoy the cool atmosphere we have on the landing place and a few cool drinks. And the good vibes are already there. So because I always – or I – I visited other countries a lot in the past. And now I got based there on Gerlitz and I have a beautiful place. And every pilot who comes from another country is really welcome at us. We have really great times there.
Yeah, it's an awesome place. I have to tell you a quick little story about my most recent – I've flown Gerlitz in quite a bit. But during the ex-Alps this year, I had a really bad third day going into Slovenia. And anyway, didn't get to – the turn point got behind some really bad weather. And the next day was pretty good. It ended up ODing later in the day quite violently. It was a monster day. But just as I was coming across from the south side and coming across the valley, I don't know what that valley name is, but basically crossed onto the Gerlitz inside. And I was just down maybe five or six kilometers from the launch, the kind of standard launch there at Gerlitz. And the sky was going ballistic. So I top landed real quick. It was really gray.
And just about to rain. And I top landed near some little houses and probably maybe 200 meters higher than the Gerlitz and launch. So I was set up really well for a relaunch, which I never got to do because the day just totally deteriorated. But I landed near this car. And just as it started drizzling a little bit, so it was perfect timing. And this wonderful lady came out. She and her family were renting a little place there. It was like an Airbnb kind of thing. And she came out. And of course, curious, what in the world are you doing here? No one's ever landed here. And they invited me in and gave me some big jug of cranberry juice. Of course, they wanted to give me beer, but I was still racing. So I didn't take her up on the beer. But this huge plate of salami and cheese and all this stuff, it was one of the highlights of the race, actually.
Of course, I would have wanted to have been flying, but it's such a friendly area. It's just an amazing place to go. So, yeah, I would encourage everybody to get out to Austria and fly that. That cool zone, awesome triangle place. And then you've got such a good spot for Acro. But, well, cool. Well, Zandy, thanks so much. Again, I really appreciate your time. That was a lot of fun. And I look forward to flying with you here in a few months.
Thank you also. And I'm looking forward to meeting you there in spring and enjoy some nice airtime together. Thank you. Thank
you. Cheers, bud.
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