Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloud Base Mayhem. This is a really fun show. I got contacted recently by a guy that I flew with very briefly, one of the days of the Rockies Traverse with Will Gadd. And he said, you got to talk to Max, man. He's done the X-Alps four times, and he's a legend around here up in Canada, and he taught the Muellers how to fly. And so I reached out to Max, and we just had a really fun conversation. We talked about safety, risk, margin, the X-Alps, of course, because we're both junkies. A lot of really good stuff here. Max has been instructing since the late 80s. He's been in the game a very long time. I think you're going to get a lot out of this and really enjoy this conversation. I've also still got this giveaway going for these great little GoPro knee pad mounts that we got gifted to us from Ben French down in New Zealand.
So if you want to share the show or tell your friends or give us a rating or put it up on the social media, just let me know how you've done that. And you could be in to win one of these great mounts. I'll be deciding that at the end of August. And that's about it. Enjoy this great talk with Max Van Der El.
So awesome to have you on the show, man. I was watching your X-Alps exploits from years back, and a good friend of yours reached out to me just yesterday, actually, and said, hey, you got to get Max on the show.
Yeah. Well, thank you for having me on that show there. It's a pleasure to talk to you there. And congratulations to your two times X-Alps. Two times adventures you had in there. And also congratulations to the other adventures you have done, especially the one in Alaska there. It's very impressive. Thank you. So, you know, it's really cool. It's awesome.
Just before we started recording there, you were telling how you got into this crazy game back in the late 80s. I'd love to, could you rehash that story?
Yeah, I have been doing this for quite a while now. I think I started in 86, 87. That's when I got into it. Yeah. And the reason how I got into it was. It's very simple. I mean, I was already quite intrigued with the gliding and the flying before that. As a kid, I already admired the skydiving and, you know, all these type of sports. And then I remember I was maybe just 14, 15. An uncle of mine actually started hang gliding and I had my hands first time on a hang glider and was just like around on the practice field with it. And that was it for me. Right. But it didn't go far because it was at the very beginning of the hang gliding times and a lot of incidents were happening back then. And so my parents didn't let me go further.
And it took a little while then after. And so that's, as I said, in 86, 87. It was actually one day I hiked up a fairly good mountain. And when I was sitting on top, another guy was sitting up there with a big grin on his face. And we talked about the party down in town. There's a town party. Happening later tonight. And then I said, Oh, yeah, I'm gonna rush down there to make it to the party. And he said, Oh, yeah, see you there in 10. I will be down there in 10. And literally what he did is he just took one of this first old, they call them a monofly. And it was a skydive shoot nine cells, just with siliconized material, pulled that thing off, run off that steep kind of field into a cliff. And it didn't take him 10.
It took him five minutes. He was down there.
And, and I my jaw just dropped. And I go like, Oh, my God, this is it. This is really it. If I don't take this on now. Now I'm I don't know how old I was maybe 20 or so. I will never do it. So I run down like crazy. A couple hours later, I see him down there in the party already half wasted and having a good time. And I just pulled him aside and said, You got to show me this. I gotta I gotta be in it. Right. And show me this. And sure enough, the next day, we went up into a ski hill. And, and my first flight actually was very interesting. He just said, Oh, you got to do this, just run and run as fast as you can. And then if you want to go right, you pull right and left go left and it will land on its own.
I love it. Oh, back in the day. Back in the day. Yeah, well, there was really no school there. Right. And that's, yeah, that's all they knew.
That's, that was the extent of his knowledge.
Exactly. And I mean, the only guys who were out there and teaching were virtually hang gliders, hang glider schools, and some of the hang glider instructors, they turned into a paragliding instructor by kind of default, right? So there wasn't much knowledge there either. Sure. And so sure enough, I mean, I went there did my first run off that ski hill between the trees. And I remember just like it would be yesterday. The tree came closer and I, you know, pulled down the one brake line and then I pulled down the other brake line. And I was just escalating in a big swing, right. And eventually I made it out there, flew down straight. And then the funny thing was this, that's how I learned my first lesson really about light ratio.
Because I was looking down there, I saw that barbed wire fence. And I was thinking, Oh, I gotta land before the barbed wire fence. Oh, no, no, no, no, I gotta land after that barbed wire fence. Oh, no, no, bang, boom, ding, I was right in it. Right. Oh, man. So, oh, yeah. So I landed in the barbed wire fence, cut up my hands. And oh, yeah, that was my first experience.
Oh, school hard knocks.
Oh, yeah. Then took right away the wing, packed it up and run right back up again. And I did it again right away. Right. So that's how hooked I was there. And it didn't take long. I think it was about five, six months later, I quit my daytime job, just quit it because I got connected with another school and started teaching from that point. Yeah. So I had spent an hour and a half flying. But then I learned everything needed to preach anyway. And then when I started climbing Meteor Island, which wasn't too bad, I started doing those kinds of things. But back in the days, I had a few technical equipment, but just walked around Eszter Somethingis K So there was a lot of people back then, right there at the Tinkleburg in the Allga Foundation. And then I also did a lot of tests flying for a lot of different manufacturers and parts of it for the associations to rate the equipment. And, uh, well, and then actually, in the 90s, '91, this is when I came to Canada for a holiday.
And um, and I liked it so much out here that I got stuck here and and and yeah, I'm here since then. And what I mean, so you just
came out for a trip and you stayed, I
Came out for a trip here and, uh, actually, this is where I met the Mullers. And then, um, after this, I came here to the valley, valley itself, where I'm still living here in, in the mare. And but we were flying back then more in Golden and, yeah, I liked it so much that I, one thing came from, for you know, one thing went to another and I'm still here. And it took me almost, it took me almost 10 years to go back to the Alps the first time, really. That's how, that's how much I liked it here. Oh, yeah, no, I was here flying around all over the place and, um, did a lot of. What I really liked here is, I mean, what I really liked, let's put it this way, is it's so laid back and it's so really what you see, um, what, what you fantasize as a European in Europe, you always see like the wild, the backcountry, the, you know, nobody there.
I mean, you, you understand it way more, like the Alaska trip what you have done is literally untouched, right? And, um, I mean, here it's very civilized here in the valley, but as soon as you go a step behind the valley, you, you are in, you know, no, no man's land, right? For a long time and just exploring this kind of places and just also flying into these places, like doing out returns into the back ranges and coming back out again. Uh, it's a, it's a different ball game and it's just as a, it's a different flair to it, which I, which I really like. It's, it's amazing, right? That
was so spectacular, and the only time I ever flew it was coming south with Will Gadd, you know, on our rocky traverse trip, and we had the most spectacular flight from from Swansea, right? That's the launch above, yeah, uh, above Invermere, and just those mountains are even golden. That whole, that whole segment down to the border is just wild, yeah.
It's absolutely stunning. And then we even go into the mountains, into the west side, so across the valley in there as well, right? So the whole area is just, uh, it's, it's, it's stunning and beautiful. And, um, I mean, to some extent, when you go back then to Europe and fly in Europe, for me, it was kind of hard to wrap my head around that you can fly behind another mountain range and there will be civilization, yeah.
Yeah, there's no such thing really as remote in terms of what we think of it is. That, I mean, you, you, there's no such thing as flying through a coal and being in the middle of nowhere. Oh yeah, there's another bus stop, yeah.
Yeah, exactly. Another bus stop, you go here or go there. Or even, you know, from the x-ops perspective, it took me a little bit at the beginning to wrap my head around, uh, you can land literally anywhere, wherever you want to land, even and high alpine, right? And there's everywhere's trails. You see a trail and it's even marked and even has numbers on it and even will tell you where it goes. Like here, you find some a goat trail or, uh, you know, whatever, nothing, and you follow a creek and bush wax through with the mosquitoes and whatnot, right? Yeah, um, and then, and the funny thing isn't the nice thing in the Alps is you can be at 3,000 meters or higher and you just literally the maximum is a three four hour hike, you will end up somewhere on a hut and, uh, they will be open and there will be a nice blonde with a push-up brine, they're serving you fish strudel and schnapps, right?
Exactly. I mean, we
We're getting so fancy this time that I was actually flying with Gaia Maps on my phone. So if these were kind of flights where we knew they were just going to be a quick flight between a cell or something, and and I would, I would pull up, you know, instead of using, you know, your typical flight instruments, I was using Gaia, and so I could land literally right on the trail that I knew was going to take me to the next launch. It's just ridiculous.
Absolutely phenomenal. You just, you can go anywhere, and even if you end up somewhere in the mountains, you will find somewhere, a shelter where you virtually can sleep in, right? Yeah, and and most of them you get food. All you need to have is euros in your pocket. That's all. The gear you really need to pay for the food and the accommodation versus here, if you end up in the back country here, oh man, this is a day's walk out or two days sometimes, right? Yeah, and then you bear country, and there's the bears, cougars out there, and more so...
um
Yes, yeah, they don't give up, these guys, right? But I always say, you know, the good thing is they come with the price. You don't have to pay extra for them, so that's a good thing. Well,
That's a very good attitude. So, so, 86, 87, 88, your was your first craft, a paraglider or a hang glider? Because I, I noted you, you also did quite a bit of hang gliding. Is that right? That's
Correct, yeah. My real craft flying first properly was a paraglider, and then in the late 80s, I also started hang gliding, and it was a pretty cool thing. Like Tegelberg, I literally had my hang glider stored on top, and then based on the conditions, I just switched between hang gliding and paragliding.
And then the so Canada grabs your eye, and you're, you're bewitched as as many people are. That's a perfect part of the world to fly. How did, how did it all start happening with, with teaching? Like, to take me through maybe like the Muellers, the legends, so...
So I started up, um, coming to Calgary and got connected with the Muellers and especially with Willie back then and, uh, and it has a funny story to it. I mean, back then it was all about hang gliding and hang gliding, you know, it has an advantage on any flying site, which is a windy flying site and, and, um, by Cochran Calgary, it's, it's a rich, a grass rich, and it's kind of windy as well. And so they just look back then at paragliding like, "Oh yeah, well it's, uh, kind of a weird out there, but, uh, well you maybe have to jump on the bandwagon, visit or not, and we'll see, right?" And I remember the, the first couple days, so he watched me fly and going back and forth and he was kind of impressed with the ground handling and what I had in this case. But then one day he came up, I mean it wasn't the first couple days, he said, "Well Maxi, this is the weather where we still fly our hang gliders and it will be fun and you can't do anything." And I just looked at it and go like, "Yeah, yeah, it's a bit stiff, that's true, but I know we can't do it, right?" Then he said, "If you really, I don't know what kind of bet he did, he wanted to bet on it." And I said, "Sure, no problem." And so I had to virtually go back and took my wing
And and um, unpacked it, hooked everything in, and I had to scrunch it all up in a nice little tulip and had to walk to the ridge all scrunched up because that's how windy it was. I can't remember, it was at least 30, 40k winds, and um, I stood a little bit into the hill and all I did is I just opened the center cell and threw the wing into the air and I made a big bang and boof when I was flying. And then after I landed, after half an hour later, he said, "Oh, okay, so now you've got my interest."
And, uh, that's great. Not, not... wow, that scared the hell out of me. No, that looks pretty good.
Yeah, yeah, that's what he got like, "Wow, um, no, I, I'm more interested in it." And, um, and then, uh, so I started, actually, he got me more involved. And, you know, my English wasn't really that good back then at all. And then he said, "Oh, you should come and you start, uh, you know, your instructor, senior instructor in Germany, and blah, blah, blah, you should start giving us lessons." And so he started me with, uh, hooking up a course for his, uh, for his paraglider people who came there and wanted to learn more. And then, at the same time, his son, Chris, was hanging around with me all the time. And I think back then he was only 14 years old or so. And, um, and I mean, that kid, uh, he was just a talent, right? So he watched, and then he always tried to read the hang glider magazine, the German ones.
And he, he always tried me to that, I translated it for him because he loved the pictures and everything like that. And then, it, man, it didn't take a year or whatever after this, uh, Chris got on this paraglider and in no time, I mean I think you did. You know Chris Miller on the end, I
didn't no, you know they were before my time
Yeah, and I mean, he was such a humble guy, but such, such an amazing, uh, beautiful to watch pilot and ground anything, and it was just superior, right? The sad part is, both of them, they're not alive anymore, right? Um, but, uh, I mean, they left just for
Those in the audience who don't know, give a real brief on, on what happened with, with both the Mullers, uh
What both happened to them is, uh, really actually got, um, uh, more into the paragliding on the end of the day, and um, he flew on the end wings, which were, yeah, pretty high end, and he really liked it because they were getting closer and closer, what he called to hang gliding, and, uh, in Chelan, he was on a competition and, um, at takeoff had a major collapse and, uh, spiraled into a rock and literally died. Um, so that, that was the end of it. He died, actually, paragliding, not hang gliding, um, with Chris, he was in one of the competitions in Florida with a hang glider and, um, and he died there by landing.
You know, they used to do this, uh, money kind of crab landing, I don't know if you know, so when they're coming fast and hot with the ground effect and fly from one, uh, street pillow to another and, and grab the money bags, and, uh, he came in and, uh, well, it was a little bit too low on it and, uh, came in with the with the down tube and too fast, and that was the end of it there, right? That's pretty sad.
Max, with you know, part of what we I love talking about on the on the show is is safety and risk and that kind of thing. You know, you you've been in the game a long time. We're kind of switching major gears here quickly, but just because talking about Chris and Willie, the you know, how how has your own approach to risk and safety changed over the years? You know, because the four times you competed in the competition, you've been in the game a long time. In the X-Alps, the X-Alps can be pretty dicey. Yeah, it's a
Very interesting point that, uh, you know, I have to say, luckily, what happened to me in, in the very beginning of my career, when we started doing the tests, we were too lazy to drive two hours to a lake and do all the testing over water. We did it, actually, right at Tegelberg, right there on the, on the high mountain and, uh, and you know, just 20 minutes or 10 minutes away from our house. And so, I used to just like any other young people and I was like, "Oh my god, I'm so lucky," on the end and put more things into the program than you should do. So, you know, normally you have a safety buffer of, let's say, four or five hundred feet and then it goes down to three, 200, 150 feet. And one time, it just didn't work out as well as I wanted and I nailed the ground really hard.
I mean, hard, so hard that my whole body was so bruised up that actually I stiffened up two days later and I couldn't even move. It was like paralyzed, right? So, And, uh, and that really scared the hell out of me. And, um, it took me about a year, I would say at least, to get mentally over it, how much in pain I was. And, uh, and, uh, you know, I got really shaken up by this. So, from that moment on, I built always a buffer zone around myself, a safety zone. And I said, "Okay, this is what for me is full tilt, I can go. That's the fastest, the most risk part I can go for." So, let's take about 20 off, or two notches off, from this. And that's how far I go. I don't go to full tilt; I only go two-thirds.
Or, you know, I'll give it 20 buffer zone into it. If something goes wrong, I have that buffer zone, right? And that's what I have done since day one, since that day. And that, really, I would say, kept me alive. Um, the only issue where lots of people see like, "Oh, yeah, well, that's not true." If I see you flying, uh, it's already way beyond my full tilt, right? Yeah.
It has to be, it has to be person.
Yes, and that comes with experience to some extent. Uh, um, you know, I have been flying a lot also in areas at the beginning, like in the Death Valley, in Owens Valley, and here in the foothills too, where we recorded over 20 meters per second climbing rates, right? And, uh, and, uh, you know, and we flew those once and we had fun with it, right? So, so my, my, so I could, I could handle these things, I could fly with it, and I could go in and out. And, you know, the training what I'm doing a lot for the ex-alps is, um, we do have very strong thermals here in the Columbia Valley, as you know. Um, but what I tried, what I did is, when it was really strong, I always flew, uh, my training is flying against the wind, into the wind.
And, um, and, and what makes it so tricky and so hard is you have to approach the thermals. If you approach them, right, from behind in the lee side of the thermal, right? We're talking 10, 15 meter per second thermals, uh, you would get washed down to the ground. So you really have to feel that to fly around and poke into the thermal from the side. And that's how I go north as far as I can until I'm exhausted, more or less, and then I go south and just, you know, go with the wind. And that's just a piece of cake, right? What
Was the—what was the impetus to to learn how to do that? Because I think typically people just, "Oh, there's some wind, I'm going to go with the wind, fly downwind." Um, obviously in the ex-alps we fight against the—were you already kind of planning, "Oh, maybe I'll do the ex-alps someday," or was this just something you figured out would be smart to learn? I
Just figured out it's smart to learn, and it's actually more challenging, and it was instead of just passing around there and sitting in the air and just go, go, go. And then finding a, for me, it was like finding a retrieval always or hitchhike back. It was almost a bit too much for me, so flying from here, I always wanted to go as far ahead into the wind and come home with the wind and be at home, because we have so many other activities here, like with the lake right here and the whole area. It's such an active area that I didn't want to miss out on many on the other things, so that's why I always planned go first north and then come back with the wind. Land right beside the beer fridge and life is good, right, Max?
I'm going to take you back to the the accident you had when you pounded really hard. One of the questions we get a lot over and over and over again because you know this, it's flying
And they, and they hopefully they have what you had, and they don't get killed or something, but they, they have a bad accident, and they're, they're more shaken up sometimes mentally than physically, and they find it quite hard to come back. If you got, you said it took you about a year. What was your, if you had other accidents, and then if you have, how, how have you come back mentally, so...
The the number one part is, it really, yes, that that incident I had was for me a huge wake-up call. And knock on wood, I did not have any acts, any other accidents since, right? I had maybe some closer calls, but nothing I got really heard of. And you are absolutely right. Paragliding itself, and I see this in paragliding and in ultralight flying—I do quite a bit ultralight flying myself—and and also teach it. What we see is people who don't have the proper education want to get into the flying too fast. And our problem is, flying a paraglide is super simple. I mean, all you really do is, you just sit in there. Um, you know, if the wing gets pushed to the left, you pendle on the knees and keep on flying straight.
So that's the easiest aircraft ever, right? Um, but then people all of a sudden realize, well, the wing is pretty easy to fly, but to read the conditions, we will be at the borderline of safety like in a split second when the winds just get too strong and too nearly right versus flying a glider plane if there is a crosswind of or gusty winds to 60, 70k. That's not even bothering us, right? I mean, by the way, I fly glider planes as well. I fly pretty much... uh, the only thing I don't really fly is rotary and brooms. That's the only thing I don't you
gotta take up brooms, yeah.
Yeah, brooms, I mean, if Harry Potter comes by, I tell you I will take one right away because they're so easy to park, right? I mean, you don't have to pack and put them in a corner, I mean, that right
Seriously, so, so, anyhow, but you see, with further gliding, you get exposed into this, uh, let's call it the red zone very fast. And then people get scared, and the scare, I would say most dropouts we have, is because people get surprised and scared and will not get back into the saddle again, right? And, uh, and this is something it's really, and that's what I do with my lessons all the time. I say, the faster you get into it, bigger chances is that you're actually not getting hurt, that you will get scared, and then the scare will be the part why you will quit, so
This, this is this fine line that I find really tricky, so that what you just said comes up again and again and again. You, you know, the the pilots who tend to, you know, let's call it, make a name for themselves, or they get really good at World Cups, or they can compete in the X-Alps, that kind of thing, they all say the same thing like, well, what would you have done differently if you were around the clock? They all say, well, I would go slower, I'd be more patient, I'd be more safe, I'd have a bigger margin, I was too aggressive. But how do you get good and do that? You know what you see, what I'm saying? Like, to to to really improve, I think what all these pilots are saying is that they got good fast because they, they took risk and they were aggressive, and yet they kind of, they either got lucky or, you know, they, they skimped through that kind of intermediate syndrome.
Maybe with like a one accident like you had, uh, where they were able to walk away, but you know, for... but how do you, how do you really improve and also maintain that margin? Well,
The number one thing I think is what needs to be taught right from the beginning, and that's what my lessons always come up with. I'm not showing you how to, well, I show you how to fly, but what you really learn here is to know when not to go. That's my big saying: to know when not to go, because if you know where not to go, then you really know when to go, and you will be an amazing XC pilot. Because if you know when not to go, you areas where to go, right? And all this will come with experience, and I say to every student, you know, you can do a fast course in five, let's say in 10 days, right, to get them through here. They have minimum 25 flights, which is in my eyes way too, too, too little, right? Yeah, um, I think everybody should go at least through one season to see the different conditions of the season, going through different wind
Shinoko no Shinok winds, and and once you have more experience under your belt, you create get more respect, and that's the key thing. Is you don't want to create fear, you want to have a really good, healthy respect of what you're doing. And if you have respect to the nature, the way that you say, "I don't fight you," that's number one thing. Is if you fight, you will lose anyways, because eventually then mother nature is stronger than you; it will show and the fighting itself. And that's what I like so much about parrot lighting is, and is it's not about fighting, it's not about how big your balls are eventually. I mean, at the beginning it is, but eventually or on the end it isn't, because if you learn how the wing works, how the wing reacts, and you become one with the wing, then the next step is you got to become one with the environment.
And when you know how the weather and everything works and have that healthy respect for each other, then you get way more than just pushing on the end. And that's what I try to bring across. There's
Uh, one of the guys I talked to, and probably you know from your Xops campaigns, um, Tom Dorledo was on the show, and his—his saying for that was, "If there's doubt, there is no doubt," and I loved that. It's very helpful, you know, when you're standing on launch, you have to be able to assess your own skills, and I think when you're learning, when you're coming up through those stages, you don't really know what you don't know. And so, if there's doubt, there is no doubt, you know, and there's just—there's just—there's never anything wrong with walking down 100
And, uh, you know, and that's the bottom line, it really is it. And it's a nice part about pearl lighting too is you stay, have to stay focused in what you are doing when you're on launch site. You don't worry about landing, you look at the, you know, overall, you have your flight plan in place and you have the weather in place, but you focus on the, on the takeoff. And then after takeoff, you're focused to the next, to the next, so you always got to be present and they. And then after takeoff, you're focused to the next, to the next, so you always got to be present and then after, exactly as Tom says, I say it a little bit different. I say it, um, you can't be a little bit pregnant either, you are pregnant or you're not. I like it, so there's no gray zone in between. Um, little bit pregnancy is only guys have it when they have a big belly, I call it right.
But other than that, and that's how flying should be. If you actually inflate a wing—I don't try to inflate a wing, I do inflate a wing, period, right? And then, when the wing is all good, then I make my decision if I take off or not. But I don't try, or I want to go, so the doubt kind of thing, or maybe in between, this wishy-washy stuff that has to be cut out, right? And yeah, 100, that that that will make a big impact on anyone's flying career. I
Noticed on your website, Max, you do guided tours and you do SIV. Um, tell me about SIV, because that has changed radically since you started in the sport in the late 80s, uh, when that didn't even exist. What, what are your recommendations for your, your students that are maybe, they're, they're beyond that 25? They're, they've got their beginner's license and you're trying to get them safely into that kind of 50, 100-hour zone? Yeah.
So for me, SIV is something, um, which I right away say from the beginning, is because most people think SIV means acro flying, right? And for me, SIV is not acro, acro.
really learn what how to react and what's going on if there is big collapses happening to some extent, right? So my SIV courses, they go up to a full stall because you normally don't even need to fly your full stall, because a full stall is just a reset button if something goes wrong with your acro, right? And, um, and so that's how I believe in in the SIV is more, um, doing, getting more feel
And the same thing I've been doing in the SIV for a long time is giving people the ability to explore the um, how far you actually can push a wing, right? One of the, I, I work a lot and very close, actually. I'm going to go there in a month, uh, with, uh, you're gonna Kraus in Anasy, and he's in, he's doing his SIVs all year long. That's all he does in Anasy, and they have a really cool program, and I, I really like what they're doing is like, we do a lot of flying just with rolling, getting the rolls, um...
and then with brake lines, and then doing the collapses, and the front stalls, and all these type of things to a point where you go, okay, if it's really rough air out there, I know how to stabilize my wing. And more so the goal for me is this really good pilot on the end, you know, even in rough conditions, you shouldn't see collapses. Because before a wing collapses, you can already act before and keep the wing open, you know, to stabilize everything. That's what I see more in my SIVs, what I want to bring across instead of just doing the acro. Again, acro is a flying on its style on its own. And I'm not an acro pilot. I mean, it's pretty cool to do so. But I have to say if I would have to do a loop, my pants would be full.
No, sorry, I'm, I'm not into this anymore. I don't know. It's maybe age. But and I understand the acro pilot is a flying pilot. But I don't know. I'm not into this anymore. I don't know. It's I don't know what you guys call it, but it's a flying pilot. But I'm not into this anymore. I don't cross country pilots or cross country flying more like per awaiting in the air, which I Yeah, which I understand, too. But that's the beauty about parrot lighting, I have to say, is, you know, parrot lighting can be acro flying, it can be cross country flying. And it can also just be a nice, beautiful hike up and do a nice glide down and finish the day or begin the day like that. Right. So I always say you don't have to be X ops pilot or super pilot. You can always fly acropilot in order to be recognized as a pilot, just to be in the air and enjoy that. That's—I say that—what really comes down to is to measure how big the grin is in your face afterwards.
I
Like that, I like that, Max. When you're in your teaching, are there—are there common mistakes? Are there things that—that make you cringe that a lot of people do? Are there—are there things you're kind of coming back to again and again in terms of, um, what—what people really need to work on? And maybe give me an answer for that, for—for students at—at various levels, maybe the very beginning student and maybe the 50-hour student and maybe the 150-hour student. Well,
One of the things I see overall is, um, it wasn't so much in Europe, but here it is, more people want to get into the sport very fast, fast and cheap. And so, um, a lot of schools, they want to offer this and go like, "Okay, I get you in fast. I give you three, four day, just come three, four, five days with me," uh, and they just about sign them off and then sell the gear and go from there and done, right? That's so, that's what I see overall. People, um, they come going after the flying itself, like flying off a practice hill five times and then being signed off and flying the mountains. It doesn't really do it again my slow, slow,
Is, you know, micrometeorology as an example to understand what, what the weather is doing and how things work from the aerodynamics perspective, the safety aspects—it's all classroom time, right? So, a lot of classroom time. To the more knowledge you have, the more you can learn to do the, and the more you learn to do it, and the more you have. It's always good to the better you will be out there and will not run into the surprises, right? That's one part, and the second part is is what I see that people simply just want to get their licenses or their ratings too fast, or after five flights, ten flights, hey, I know what I'm doing, I want to get signed off and I want to go on my own, right? And to what I really think is what I encourage you a lot is number one is do as many as possible supervised flights.
Number one, you have to really do them, and if you have a certain policy about that or something else, and if you have a certain policy or about the even if you get in some schools, they say, oh, we sign you off, you're good enough. And then the other thing is this, what I try to create always is within the community, fly within the community itself. So, you know, phone each other up with people who fly a year, two years, three or five years and fly together and evaluate the weather and the conditions together and go from there. Right. So stick together more like that. That's how I see you can create longer lasting pilots.
What about just techniques in general? Do you have any advice that you give your students about, you know, as they're progressing and they're starting to fly Swansea in the middle of the day and trying to figure out kind of piecing together their first cross country flights? What are you working on with them then?
Yeah, what I do is with them. At the beginning, and what I believe a lot in it, this number one is ground handling is one of the most important things. And even when they want to get more into the cross country flying, I say the more you ground handle, the more you understand and feel your wing and can stabilize your wing in the air, especially then in rougher conditions. Right. I mean, we used to know when we used to work as a test pilot, we just inflated the wing on the ground. And I would say to 90 percent, we can tell already what. If that wing will even fly. Right. And we almost can write a test program already on the ground with ground handling. That's how much you feedback you or you can learn, you know, just this ground handling alone. Right. Then the next thing really is what we do is when they take off.
What I'd like to do a lot is clip the brake lines back onto the risers and literally just, you know, lean out of your harness to the front all the way out and just do this big swimming movement. You know, so that you really offset yourself from the harness and lean all the way out and and get the feel how the wing flies when you're all the way out there and then just do the opposite. Throw your feet right up into the lines, go upside down. Right. And fly like that. And then the next thing is what we do is we we do the rolling movements just with weight shift. And, you know, if you do it right, you just about can actually do wing overs with only weight shifting, not even touching the brake lines. But that. Gives you a lot of feel and feedback, what the wing is doing, how the wing flies.
And then when you just put the brake lines on and do a little little input with the brake lines in no time, you're in a wing over. Right. Because you actually the whole body is flying. And once you get this down and you fly in rough, rougher conditions, you actually understand and feel what the wing is doing. And you can prevent, I would say, at least 70 to 80 percent of collapses when you fly in and out of a thermal. Right. And at the same time, you also get to feel how the wing reacts in a thermal and you can stay in a thermal longer because you feel what the wing is doing. Because if you're not one with the wing, how should you understand the thermal? Because, you know, based how your wing reacts, you know where the thermal is and how where the core is.
Right. So that's what I bring more into this, more the feel of the flying. And and then once I mean, here in this area, it's super easy. Once you're in a thermal, you get backed up another thousand meters and then it's just a glide to the next, right?
Right. Right. Good advice. That's great advice. It'd be remiss of me to not ask you some X-Alps questions because we're both big fans, obviously, maybe looking back at your four campaigns. One, I want to ask you, I got to ask you about your supporter. You did it with your wife every time. Is that right? Yes. You guys must have a very special relationship.
Well, I have to say very close. Clearly, I would be only half the man without her. That's the number one part, right? I mean, we are a team and I mean, she is just amazing. And the beauty about her is she has no ego and it's all about the fun where we are and how we do things. And and for us, the X-Alps, I mean, we knew we know where we are and who we are. And sure, we we have some kind of, you know, a skill level there. But I think with guys like Kriglo in the end, give me a break. But so for us, it was always more like an adventure. And that's really what I liked about it is you got pulled out of your daily life.
And you could do what you were dreaming of flying across the Alps and somebody telling you you have to go here and there and you work together. And and then how focused you are in this case together. I have to say it was amazing, right? And especially doing it with my wife. I mean, that's the only time. Right. She served me breakfast in bed. It's amazing, right? I mean, bed, I gotta take
advantage of these things.
But, uh, no, and I think that's why, um, the, uh, Ulrich and back then, Hannes, they always picked us back up again and again. It's because they could see how much fun we had together and we worked together. We always had a good attitude; there was never, uh, you know, a bad word exchange or whatever, it was always a good attitude and fun. And, um, I don't know, I, I would not do the excels without her. I want to do them again and again, but she says, well, I think, um, it's time to stall, and I think
That's what people don't appreciate about the, I mean, I, I see other teams. I think there are teams who take it really seriously that maybe aren't having quite as much fun as we are, but, but, um, you know, I, I think people don't appreciate how much fun it is. It, I mean, it, it is, you know, there's definitely some suffering involved that it, it is pretty intense, but I, I just, I find the, the intensity also very fun if you have a great. I was surprised how much of it is the team, you know, I mean, it, it's, it's terrific flying across the Alps and being involved, and it just takes you to the craziest places. Even in the Alps, you just, you launch from the most absurd spots, and you know, all that's really special. But for me, the most, the thing that makes me cry at the end is, is that when our team goes our different ways, you know, you get to, you, you don't even go your different ways, you're still together, which is phenomenal.
But I just, that bond and that the laughter and the, the things you do together is really special, isn't it?
It's very special. It's, it's very, you know, the thing is, this I can see, I, I liked it the most when we only had one supporter. When we had the second support, it was actually really Penny liked it to some extent more because then she could hike more with me, right? Um, but then you have another, another personality built into it, which is hard sometimes to really flow the same way, right? Some people that want to push harder, some of them they want to push you one way or another, or some people don't, right? So, and that's what I liked with, uh, with Penny, to do it together. There we were very synchronized and, and did it together from that point. Um, yeah, I have to say, uh, sure, we pushed hard, but, um, at the same time, we never blamed anybody and our, our
Push was always, you know, the X-ups was more like you as the athlete through the flying and the hiking, and you have the one supporter in there as one team. And so we didn't want to have any other people flying ahead of you and have other guides guiding you in here. There we saw the all the whole X-ups always as a huge big adventure, but only for the two of us. And that's what I like the most, yeah.
it'd be interesting I was having dinner with Chrigel the night before the race started this time, and I was asking him, because he did it with a new supporter this year. Toby and, uh, instead of instead of Thomas and, and he was, he was saying that in about 2013, 2011, uh, you know, he used to do it just with Thomas. It would just be the two of them, and he was saying that they, it just, and it was totally fine, and, and Thomas wouldn't be overwhelmed, and, and they had a really good synergy, and, you know, but he said it's gotten so fast now that you can't do it with one anymore.
and in, in some ways, I, I, I wish it would reverse, you know? There, there are team—I mean, Chrigel still wins, and he doesn't have other people flying with him, you know? But there, there, there are teams that have like four cars now and six people, and you know, like Aaron Durogati, usually he's in the air with two or three other pilots, you know, a couple X-Alps pilots, and Andre Pershask is like one of the best acro pilots, and and I'm not digging on there, and I, that's, that's his approach, and and it's, you know, it's a, it's a different way to do it, but in some ways, I feel like I'm not going to be like, it's, it'd be fun to, to rewind a little bit because I think that must be very special when it's just the two of you, yes.
And I have to say, you see, at the beginning, the first couple years when I was there, it was very strict in the rules. It was only you and your supporter, and a lot of other teams, they, you know, they had their pilots flying wisdom. And now it turns into two, three, four, five cars, whatever you're saying, there, right? And I hated that, yeah. And I always, some people said like, well, and when I competed, I always competed by the pure rule. I say, that's how it is. That's why I like doing it, because I like that kind of rule. Um, now they open it up a bit more and say you can have more supporters, you can have more like this, and I think that's a good thing because then you make it public and say it's a whole team, yeah? You have two, three pilots who fly with you, you have these mountain guides hiking with you, you know, and not doing it all by yourself.
That turns into a different X-Alps, right? Yeah. Um, personally, I see, knowing this, that it's actually evolving more and more into this direction. I don't, I wouldn't go back to the X-Alps if I would really like to go back into the X-Alps when it was like, it was at the very beginning. The very beginning was even 24/7. There was no night break, yeah? There was no night pass, yeah? It was just open 24 hours, and that was the best, yeah? Honestly, it's the best of the best because this is then really you and your partner or your supporter, and then you really have to learn how to pace yourself, right? Yeah, because right now, uh, people who can't pace themselves, if they would be back on the 24/7 race, you would see in the first five days they would run themselves into the ground, yeah?
They'd blow up, yeah? And they're still blowing up, and that's what I like, that.
yeah yeah
They're still blowing themselves up, and I know Thomas is an example. It's and I like, I love Thomas. Thomas, an amazing guy, he's a really good friend of my kids actually, because they always were hanging out there with us, right? Uh, his little kids, yeah. But Thomas, but Thomas is that, I think, it's a really good friend of mine. He's a really good guy. I know, as an example, if you make this again 24/7, he, he would only lay down when he's completely shut down, right? Right. And um, and I think the X is more, oh yeah, but then how he can pull it off, but still, a human being can only do it for so long, right? Sure. And um, and that's what I like more. It's like when you bring it back all by yourself, um, the 24/7, no other supporters, nothing into it. Um, I have to say, that's what I like the best.
Yes, yeah, yeah.
For sure, there's, there's, there's a lot of appeal there for that, for that, for sure. Um, can you, in your four campaigns, this might be impossible question, but can you relate maybe the your highest moment and your lowest moment of the four races? Uh, my lowest moment
Well, normally I don't really have really low moments because I, I really tend to forget them exactly. Never want to type three, and I want to forget them as quick as possible. Yeah, and the thing is, I think that sometimes I thought there's a reason for that. Uh, uh, they do it every second year because you need a year to forget some stuff, right? Totally, yeah.
absolutely um i
would say for me, number one is, uh, the lowest moment was my very first year where, after eight days, I had Achilles issues, like inflammations, where I literally had to get out of the race on the end. And so, um, that was for me kind of a low moment. But at the same time, I had a lot of issues, like I had a lot of issues with my head, so I thought that was a very high moment because I was going into the X-ups kind of blue light, so like, oh, okay, let's give this a try. And then I could actually realize after this time, wow, this is can be actually fun, more fun than I thought, and I'm actually stronger than I thought, right? Um, that was for the first year. But then the, I mean, another low point would be when I got my penalty, my two-day penalty, uh, the last race I was in, because I felt like it was one of my strongest
One's I have to say, overall, is really sharing this adventure with Penny and, to some extent, with the kids together, you know, just having this kind of experience and passes on to your family and do this with your family. This is, uh, it's, uh, as you know yourself, is once you're in this X-ups part and you do it more than once or twice, your life becomes changes kind of around that with your attitude, with how you, um, how you approach sometimes, because you constantly, it's the whole X-up stuff is a mental game, right? And so you, you evolve mentally way more out of it. And I say that's a very high point from the flying perspective. One of my high points, I have to say, I think that was at the last race when, after the two-day penalty, um, I was racing for the last place and, um, and I said, "No, Thomas Hofbauer," he was just an hour behind me and we were at the Zugspitze.
And anyhow, it was such a dicey game what to do, and I was waiting and waiting on one of these riches to take off, and I managed to take off and then literally just flew along the grass roots to the to the front of the Zugspitze, and the turn point was on top of Zugspitze, right? Not down in Lermos, yeah. And, uh, so what I made is, I made it around to where the big rock face is to Airwald, and you could actually land on top there before it's called the gutter, and then have about a four four hour hike up there to the top of the Zugspitze, and then you could actually land on there to the summit. But, um, I was kind of getting too, you know, I got some thermals and I thought I can make it and fly over the Zugspitze, and the amazing part was I made it to the top of the Zugspitze, and before where I wanted to land in, I was virtually 20 feet too low.
It was in that rock face and So I had to fly around, and I knew if I go down to Airwald, that's a two, two and a half thousand meter hike up, and I, and I knew, okay, I'm done, then I'm out of this game, right? And so what I actually did is I flew then around, and I flew underneath the gondola where the gondola goes up, and I landed just right at the beginning where the via varata starts to going up to the, to the Zugspitze, the last 400 meters. So I landed in that ria varata and, uh, you know, and then just put my wing in and whoop, climbed the last 400 meters up, and I still remember the Spanish guy was standing up, then he saw me, and he looked at me, and he saw this, he sees a ghost coming
Because I was right there, right? And then I said, "Oh no, let's give her, it's awesome, it's fun." And I was so pumped, right? And then, uh, he took off, and 10 minutes later, whatever, I took off. And then from there, I mean, I flew, man, I flew all the way down to the next turn point. Yes, I flew to the next turn point, did the turn point in the air. I flew over all these glaciers at 4,000 meters, and, uh, then I flew, landed somewhere else again, and flew off. And by the end of the day, I was in Switzerland, and I think I got 10 more ranks up. So, wow, yeah, that's a good
day that
was a really good day, so it was like from being last and just landing literally in the via varata as they were just below there, and then, uh, going off and doing this kind of flight that was very spectacular, I have to say. Yeah, yeah.
Wow, that's amazing. I, I had
Whoa, what just happened? Yeah, that's—that's pretty exciting. Well, fantastic, Max, thanks so much. I think that's a perfect place to end on a very high note, a big, huge flight. Um, thank you so much for, for sharing your thoughts and, and, uh, it was great talking to you and I hope you and I get to spend some time at Cloud Base, but I know you're heading out to a great river trip in the green with your kids, so have an awesome trip and thanks so much. Yeah.
Thanks a lot, and yeah, thanks a lot for having me on your show there. I really appreciate it, and I'll see you next time. Bye bye. Really appreciate it. It's a lot of fun, yeah. And all the best to yourself as well. Yeah, I'm sure we're going to meet one way or another. I'm sure we will. Thanks, Max. Cheers. Thanks. Bye. I
Hope you enjoyed that really cool talk with Max. Uh, he's heading out on a great trip, and I'm heading out to fly, so we're going to make this quick, as always. All we ask for is as a buck a show. Uh, you can support us directly via PayPal on the website cloudbasemayhem.com, or you can support us where you can kind of set it and forget it, and there's all kinds of rewards for doing so on patreon.com forward slash cloudbasemayhem. Uh, I have promised to all of you, all the supporters, a little special episode with Chrigel Mauer, uh, recorded some of that at the end of our first conversation, but I've still been. We're he, and I have been trying to link up to do the second bit. Got a lot more good, great questions from you on Facebook, and so I promise that is coming very soon.
Uh, he just got done with the World Cup in Disentis, and is spending a lot of time with his kids after the ex Alps, and we're just trying to make it happen, but we will do so. Uh, keen to bring that to you, but uh, for now, signing off, and we'll see on the next show. Thanks very much. Cheers.