Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloudbase Mayhem. This is by far the most requested guest we've ever had. The great Chrigel Maurer just won his fifth straight X-Alps, three times world champion, acro champion. He's won the X-Pyr, Dolomiti Man, you name it. This guy crushes. He is the undisputed king of our sport. The best pilot the sport has ever had, probably ever will have. I always call him the Kelly Slater of paragliding. This was just an amazing opportunity to sit down with him. We were planning on doing it in Monaco at the end of the race, but of course, very few people made it to Monaco this time. It was actually quite reassuring to get on the phone with Chrigel tonight and see that he looks a lot like I feel.
This race broke a lot of folks. In fact, most of us, that was a really hard go. And it was good to see that it even crushed. And somebody like Chrigel, even he had to do just a ton of time and ground miles and ground game. Before we get into this amazing talk, stick with me here for a second. Got a few things of housekeeping. Number one, sorry for the gap. I was planning on sitting down with Pál Takáts, which I am doing here in the next couple of days, for a show that we were going to release during the race that we were going to line up before the gun went off in Salzburg. But we didn't get a chance to do that. Free week before the race was pretty hectic and the weather was terrible. And so I just didn't get a chance to do that. So I apologize for the big gap here, but excited to bring you this show.
We're certainly coming back with a bang. Nate Scales. And Nate, for the last couple of years, has been running what he's called, calling them Intermountain Wide Open. Those of you in Nevada, Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Utah, did I say Montana? Yeah.
We've got this kind of open, friendly comp. It's not. It's not really a comp, but it's just a means to get people together. It starts July 29th, ends August 13th. So that's two weeks and three weekends. It's basically your best four scores on X contest. And then we get together for the final weekend and all fly together. But you can fly wherever you want and in any of those zones. And you put up your score and it's just fun. It's a hundred bucks to enter. It's a very good chance of winning a whole bunch of that money back. The last couple of years, it has been an absolute blast. We've gotten it. Insanely good weather. So if you want to come out to the Rocky Mountains and get really super tall and fly some big lines with great folks that are really stoked, I invite you to reach out to me or Nate.
You can get a hold of me via email and I'll put you in the right direction. He doesn't spend a lot of time on social media, so this isn't something we really put out there. But if you're in the zone, I highly recommend it. It's been a blast the last couple of years. So if you're not at the Canadian Nats or doing something else, come join us for the Intermountain Wide Open. We're going to do another little giveaway. One of the podcast fans, a guy named Ben French down in New Zealand, he makes these really cool knee acro GoPro mounts. Not really acro, but they're just GoPro mounts for your knee that are great for training and for observing what you're doing in SIV or acro or whatever. They're called WindyMounts.com. He's given me four of those, so I'm going to give three of them away or maybe even four because I'm now using Garmin.
And we'll do it like we did last time. For the D 'Lorme and for the Blue Sky Vario. Whoever puts out the best rating on iTunes or Stitcher or however you listen to the podcast or maybe if you share it on social media, just send me how you've shared it. If you do it in some kind of cool or funny way, then I'll pick out the four that I like the best. We'll do that, let's say, at the end of August and send you one of these mounts. They're really cool. They're really well put together. So, yeah, give us a rating on any of those, however you listen to your podcast, and that just helps spread the word. Another little thing is Patreon. We have this way of supporting the show where you kind of set it and forget it and it's all on us to produce content.
Each time we produce content, you get billed at whatever level you decide to support us at, whether that's $1 or $3 or $5. I've just got these beautiful t-shirts in, these Cloudbase Mayhem t-shirts and killer trucker hats. I've got some cool shorts. Swag there. One of these days, I'll be finishing my book. Anyway, you get rewarded for supporting us on Patreon. And one of the things we're going to do here with a future show is someone's going to interview me about the X-Alps. We've been getting a lot of requests for that and I don't have the interviewer yet. Maybe we'll do Nate or Farmer or somebody here in town and just talk about the X-Alps. And I'm going to put that out exclusively to those who support the show. This is a listener-supported podcast. Expenses are mounting. Those of you who support, thank you so much.
And those of you who don't, this is a little urge or nudge to get involved. And so we're going to put that out just to the Patreon supporters or those of you who have supported us through PayPal in the past. And so that'll just go out to just the folks that are supporting. It's going to be a fun show. We'll put that out here in the next couple of weeks. And yeah, it should be a blast. I think it's a blast. Anyway, talking about the X-Alps, this was a crusher of an event. We had really terrifically bad weather. Broke a lot of guys, but just a complete blast. Chrigel and I talk about the X-Alps quite a bit in this show. We also talk about risk. I put out this morning that I was going to be having him on the show and you, our listeners, gave me tons of great questions. I asked as many as I could.
I promise if I didn't get that in there, I apologize, but we did cover a ton of ground. Really talked a lot about safety, what he's learned over the years. He does a lot of coaching at home. And we talk about, you know, what he, what kind of valuable stuff he's passing along, climbing, gliding and planning and competitions and some of the things, not all, but some of the things that make Chrigel, Chrigel. This was just a really humbling experience. I was very thankful to have his time.
It's a terrific talk. You're going to dig it. You're going to learn a lot and it's going to inspire you to get out there and train. Without further ado, please enjoy. God, I did enjoy this conversation with Chrigel Mauer. Chrigel, this is even a little bit scary to have you on the show. You're by far the most requested guest and I'm sorry we couldn't do this in person in Monaco, but thank you so much for coming on the mayhem. It was fabulous to compete with you, sort of compete with you again in the X-Alps just a week ago. I think we wrapped that up and it's just, just fantastic to get the opportunity to talk to you. So first of all, congratulations with a fifth unprecedented, amazing, incredible to watch win.
I know we're both just looking at you here. You look like I feel, I know we're both pretty tired, but congratulations. Just an awesome effort and you must be really psyched.
Yeah. Hi, Gavin. Thank you very much for this. And yeah, it was great and nice to hear you again. Yeah, I'm very tired now. Still, still after one week, but I recover fast and I hope to be ready for training in two weeks, I think.
So you've already got your eyes on the next one.
Yeah, there is some next competitions and I like to train more hard, more fast to be ready for the short and fast competitions like a Dolomitenman. But yeah, it's a kind of competition with hike and fly, but in a, in a very short, short time. The race, it's around 30 minutes. It's completely different to the X-Alps. But yeah, next challenge.
Okay, well, let's, let's get into it. I have some, I put out that I was going to be talking to you this morning on Facebook, got some great questions. The temptation for me, like I said before we started recording is just to ask about the X-Alps because it fascinates me and you, you just dominate it. It's watching you perform there is really exceptional. So, so I do have some X-Alps questions, but then we'll transition to, you know, I know you're doing a lot of coaching and guiding and I really want to tap into some of that knowledge so we can spread some of that. But first, just, just some X-Alps stuff that I think people are curious about. One thing is your wing choice. You know, you, you have moved through many manufacturers and I understand before this race and correct me if I'm wrong, but you were, you were trying quite a few different wings.
What's your method? What's your methodology there? Why? And why do you choose a three-liner? I think in every X-Alps you've flown a three-liner. Obviously your, your wing of choice when you're competing and flying in the Alps is a two-liner. So why the three-liner for the race and why did you end up with the Skywalk?
Yeah, for sure it was, for me it was important to have the right wing. It was very interesting to see what's, what's on the market. And finally I choose the three-line Skywalk because it was the best compromise I say in, in performance, in safety, in, in fun. When I fly the two-liner I can feel a lot of performance but only when I'm really in a good shape. It means during one day, 10 hours it's okay. But in a race like X-Alps after some days I get so tired that I can't I can't have a benefit of the performance of the two-liner.
So it means it's more important to feel comfortable on the wing than to have more performance. And now there is since three editions of X-Alps they fly with two-liners and the best result of a two-liner was rank four I think. And there was no two-liner on the podium so it shows that that the performance average of the of the two-liner it's not important in an adventure race. And I tried out for example to take off in strong wind conditions to land in very small spots and I never feel really comfortable on a two-liner because the the performance it's just too much.
And I have more possibilities on the three-liner and so I I can feel better even when I'm on the limit when I'm tired. And this finally was for me the decision to have a three-liner wing. And finally the X-Alps 3 from Skywalk was the wing it was finished in May. In May I did my first two competitions pre-competitions before the X-Alps. And so it was the the completest wing that I had. The finish wing, finally, there was more than, more than three wings, three-line wings, and yeah, I chose one in May, and I think it was a good decision because the the performance was quite good, stability was perfect, and also the handling was cool to fly.
And for me it was it was a great equipment.
I read you, and I talked about this a little bit in the... in the press conference when we did that in 2015, but I read that really, you know, for the physical side of the training, you kind of aim for 30,000 meters a month and run up to the X-Alps. What about the mental side of things? One of the things that I know that is very different for you, some of the athletes just because they have to do it because they have jobs or they don't have the time. But when we sat next together in the press conference, I said, "What parts of the course have you been flying and learning?" And you said, "No, I don't do that at all before the race." You know, I like to because it's so different in May and June than it is in July. I like to go in and see it with fresh eyes and fly it on the day, which really surprised me.
I don't know why it surprised me knowing it's you, but it's you, know? Would you have that same approach if it was in a place that you don't know, like, say, if you were doing an X-Alps in the States, or something, or somewhere where you haven't flown? Would you still do it that way?
Yeah, we was really testing a lot of movement before we did the first X-Alps, and then it was the first edition and we was just not possible to visit all the places, so we tried to train as good as possible at home, and then we found out that it's working quite well. And finally, I was competing in the Pyrenees in the X-Pyrenees, and we was not able to stay there to visit any places, and it also works well. And finally, I have an example from this year edition because there was the turn point two in Slovenia, and I was—I never was there, but I had some questions, and I was asking, I think, 10 or 12 teams
They was on this turn point, and they was not able to answer my question because one day say I was there, and I was flying so good I was 1000 meter above the other says I was there, but it was not flyable. it was cloudy, I have no idea. That the third says, "Okay, I was there but it was snow," so I have no idea. So it means there was 10 teams that was there but no of them had an idea how it is. Or the other example is the the turn point five Garda like Black Garda, Brent Baldo, all the people, they they talk to me, they say it's not possible to fly to the turn point because of the valley breeze of the stability, it never will be possible.
And on that day when I flew there, I never flew there before, and on that day it was just weak valley breeze, so it was possible to fly until the close to the turn point, and not only for me, it was also flyable for Kaspar. And it was because the valley breeze was, was unusual soft, and this shows that, that when you know a place very well, that in the race it can be different, and then you have no benefit; it's the opposite, you have a problem.
You have these preconceived notions that aren't correct, exactly.
And so this was one point, what should I say? It's not efficient to check all the points, and the other point is clearly that that the race was in a new route, and this new places, it was very interesting for me to see, and I was really motivated to to see all the places where are new, and I thought it gives me the the motivation to do the race for a fifth time. It was like I was I feel like a a child they can discover the world, and it was a great feeling also this edition to have a new new places and to have more pics of the of the Alps now and
It's... it was a good motivation to have no idea before and
It was a good motivation. What is your, what is your year look like in a run up to the X-Alps in terms of preparation? We've all heard these crazy stories about how
Exacting your training is, but also how experimental, you know? You have this, there's a video of you launching in the X-Pyr and just these crazy wins and everybody's seen it. It's fantastic, and you just walk up and there's another pilot who's, you can tell, there's no way they're going to launch. Yeah, and you, you just do this incredible launch. But I've heard of you, you know, testing out rotor behind cornices, you know, in the snow, so if you crash, it would be safe. And I've heard, you know, ground handling in 60 kilometers an hour win. I mean, one, are these true? Because we've all heard them, but also, is that really, are you doing a lot of that kind of thing in preparation for the X-Alps, in anticipation of just flying in terrible conditions?
Is that, is that, is that because of the X-Alps, or is that just how you train?
No, I think when I was test pilot for other ones, I was really often on the limit because it was, it was just my job. And after, I really like to to check my limit or the limits of my equipment, and as long I feel good, I go forward. So when I feel bad because of conditions or myself, I have to, I have to stop and turn around. And I know that when I want to compete in a hard race, I really have to to train hard to be ready, and as hard I train, as easier it is in the race, it means
flying in in in in wind conditions, they are around 50
It's very hard to handle, but when it's a little bit less, it means windy, about 40, it feels like easy. And when I can try to take off in strong wind conditions, and when I can do this in the snow, then it means that I have more safety when something is wrong. And when I can do this often, and I know how to manage, I can do this in a race, in a, in a, in a normal takeoff, it means it means to train even harder than it has to be in the race. It's my goal.
is
mental training part of your program too, because I know we talked before the race about Thomas, and I know he's a sports psychologist. And, you know, is there—are there things you do for your head before something like the X-Ups, or maybe even before, you know, when you were doing a lot more competing in the World Cups and you had your—you know, you had the three-time world champion—is there—are there—are there very—are there things you do? Because I know your physical training is incredibly rigorous; we just talked about some of the things you do for flying. Are there things you do for your head?
Yeah, I think it's—it's two. It's two. Two points. One point is that I—that I do this automatically, so it means I not do special training for my head, but I really do a lot of dreaming. Dreaming how I can fly, how I can win a race, how I can do crazy things like aerobatic maneuvers. I was dreaming about infinity tumbling, and after I—I was able to fly it, for example. And this I do often in the night, so it's a natural thing I do. And now I—I had some some
Yeah, I was thinking about a fifth addition for myself. Is it, is it smart as a, as a father to do this again and to fight hard in the nature? And then I was thinking about some points which, which motivates me to, to do it right. And when I was in, in the week before the race in Fuschl, I got sick because of cold and I was not feeling good, and I really was on the, on the corn or on the border to think about, I think it's over, I have no chance against the others. And finally, there was, there was just the, the mental training to, to think about my strengths.
So I, I was thinking about the last additions and I think about the, the nice parts in the race, and I really read them down to have to have paper in front of me and I can see, okay, my strengths are the flying, the nice parts are the, the adventure, the sunrise, the sunset. the team spirit to be out in the nature, but have a team with me and all these nice things, and I think that's, that's a part of mental training which I did especially for the race in this year edition, especially because I was sick and not thinking about winning,
and that helps me a lot, and and so I was on the, on the Sunday I was ready to, to start, and after some hours in the race I could, I could really focus on the race, and there was no thinking about problems, so all the things was away, and I was really focused in the race, and I was really happy to feel this change from the week before, and to the race is
There more pressure on you now, or less? Do you, when you come into, you know, after winning it four times, going into the fifth time, are you more nervous or less nervous, or do you get nervous? Yeah,
It was funny that after one time, after the first win, it was less pressure because I thought, okay, I won already, so the other have to. And this time it was a bit more pressure because I really like to have five, like, five fingers, and it was something like, like, yeah, I won four, so why not the fifth? But I also was, was agreed that they are young, strong athletes. I got older and older, and yeah, it's a long route and I have to be really in a good shape. But after, I think, two days, when I was in the front, I the feeling came that I can do it, so the pressure was away and I start to enjoy the race.
And the pressure was really in the pre-week in Fuschl, it was quite big because it doesn't feel good and I really want to win. And after two days, three days, it was away, and I think it was really a good feeling. And also, I was a bit relaxed, and I could do better decisions, and it was great to feel. And on the second day, I feel that I really can win the race again.
Are you? I imagine not. I mean, you're always out front, so maybe this is something you don't have much experience with, but I know for me, I start to become greatly influenced by what you and other pilots have done in front of me because I can see, "Oh, this line worked," or "That line doesn't work." But in some ways, that goes against what you were talking about in the beginning, because that's a different day, it's a different time, it's a different time of the day. Are you—are you influenced by what other pilots are doing? Clearly you are in, like, a World Cup, because everybody's doing the same thing, but are you, or are you just kind of on your own?
It was funny. I had a lot of fans of pilots, they visit me because of the live tracking. They found me easy and they really talk to me how I have to do which trail, I have to go which launch, I have to go which line I have to fly, and I was really listening on them. But finally, I had to take my own decision, and sometimes it was different what they say, and sometimes I feel mad because people want to help me and I do, I doesn't do this. And and I think it's, it's really, really important to do the next step exactly what, what you feel it's the best step, because to do something what the other did can be helpful because you know that it's possible to go, and then it's a good feeling and you can do the step.
But if you think about, okay, shit, I like to do something else, but before the other, this, this I have to do this also, and I think then the feeling is not the best, and then it's not the best to do it. But for example, on the second day, I was a bit in the middle and all the, all the, the guys in front, they went to the, the Karasaltal valley in to the south, and some of them, they went into the, to the left uphill to fly, and I, my support told me that, that they do this, so maybe I have to do the same. And then I was thinking about why they do this, it makes no sense to me.
So, better let's go to the right to the west, yes? And and finally, it was the perfect decision, but I don't know why, it was just just a feeling I had. Let's go to the to the good side of the sun, to go in the middle of two valleys, so I can switch the valley maybe. And afterwards, the wind was perfect to switch the valley, and it was a perfect move. And I don't know why I did this, but I don't in the moment I was not realize or not thinking about to do the same what the other do, because in my eyes it doesn't make sense.
That was, that was...
Actually, the next question I was going to ask you, we were watching that move, you know, I pulled my night pass because we, we'd been been told that the weather was going to be a lot better on the south, and it just was. We got into that, that cold with Huber; it was terrible, it was unmanageable, and really bad, and it was a waste of it. I wish I would have gone later because I maybe would have been smart and followed you, but just such a smart move, and I wanted to like, I think, I think a lot of the teams, you know, their supporters are really helping identify launches and finding out the weather and passing that along. How much are, how much are you relying on Tobias, or your team, to find launches versus you are, you are, you are, you picking out the places to go, or
And I'm going to tag on one question that, too: what, what resources are you using? If you're comfortable, you don't have to spill the beans, but are you using other than your team?
Yeah, our strategy was that the team was watching out for, for, for takeoffs. It means I had two guys at home; they checked in the Google Googlers where I can go, and they, they was able to send me some tracks which I can import in my mobile phone to navigate, and my support, Tobias, was checking these tracks, or these routes, if it makes sense or not. And if he, if he says, "Okay, it looks good," I import and then I go, this, this, I follow this track. But finally, there was always the goal to have information of my team, and when I feel in my stomach what to do, then it was the best.
So the final decision I took myself and Often, it was a gamble, you know? It's a—it's another in an adventure race. It's—it's never clear what it's the best to do, or what's the best next step. But there was—was two guys, they was helping me, and I know how they work, how they think. And finally, I did a decision, yeah, which I was not really sure that it works, but it was maybe a decision which was the best motivation because when I went to the south from Matterhorn, the weather forecast for French part was not so good,
and I really wanted to go to the French part because it's flyable, normally it's very efficient in the air, but it's 100 km more, and the weather forecast was bad, so I had to go the straight line following Italy, and I really hide the flat of the Italy part, yeah.
it's terrible but
There was so many signs that it will be better on the Italy part, but I had to go this route. And finally, I found my motivation that I say, okay, I did four time X-Alps in the French side, and now I will discover the Italy part. And this, this idea gives me a good motivation to go full speed in Italy. But I really was thinking about for two or three hours in the race, why to go to Italy? Because it's a bullshit, it's flat, it's not flyable, it's, it's horrible. And then I found, okay,
I have to go there because I never was there before, and yeah, this, this idea gives me the motivation to go to Italy and finally. The other, like, Benoit and Paul, they was following me and I thought, "Okay, it's a good decision, yeah."
Yeah, yeah, yeah, tell me. Just, we'll take a break from from the seriousness. Tell me about the the flight where you got blown out of the mountains. You had thousands and thousands of people, including myself, watching that going, "Holy shit, he's just hit airspace," and I'm, "This is just going to be so interesting if he hits that airspace." And you just did this little kink of a move just around that CTR. I was, I can't imagine doing that flying in 100k an hour, but was that, was that really scary, or was that air not too bad?
It was a crazy day. It was the, the, um, how do you say, there was the X-Alps day in five editions, which I was making the, the less and the minimum distance. And after, after this flight, it was eight hours of competition in the day, and it was just 20k, and, and it was so horrible. And the problem was that in the morning, um, the first takeoff was in the cloud, and then I thought to continue the ridge to go higher and higher, maybe to have the wind for soaring. And then they came, um, thunderstorms more than the forecast says, and I was waiting in a storm for one more than one hour.
Then I go up to the next stop, and the wind was from more than from south west than from north west. There was many different, um, compared to the forecast, and Then I took off in the west and I bomb out, so I had to walk up again 200 meters, and then I launched into the other side in the lee, and then I bomb out again. And after the the next 600 meter climb, there was perfect wind and I took off, and immediately after the takeoff, I felt, okay, this was a mistake. It's so hard wind and the climb was four meters everywhere, and in the west the next storm, um, came, and I really wanted to fly into the to the valley, to go into the Alps, to to to the west part,
but after this, um, I think the first five minutes for me, it was clear, it's it's too dangerous, and then I turned around. First, I was spiraling down to have less wind in the in the valley down, but it even 500 meters lower, there was strong wind. And then I decided to go out in the flat to to stay safe, just to stay safe. And then I turned around and it was 90, 95 in trim speed, so I was flying full speed to have more than 100. And it was crazy that I flew out 17k, and in this 17k I made 2k direction Monaco.
So it was, it was a flight like, like it was for nothing, yeah. And I was walking up for for four hours, four and a half hours, and bob out for two times. And finally, the flight was 17k and I made 10k direction Monaco. It was so horrible, worse...
than a slider, yeah
It's unbelievable, and and finally I was thinking about why I did such a mistake, and for sure the weather forecast was different, but finally it was just to try to have the possibility to fly, and then it was a little worse, and for sure walking was better, but my strength is to fly, and so it's the game, so try always to do the best, and if it's not possible walk, then you can walk, and yeah, after eight hours of competing this day, I was really afraid, and I really want to push on the ground, and then in the next five I did 40k on the ground, and finally it was 50k.
50, I think 58 or something on the day, so it was not a really bad day, but it was not the really good feeling to make all the good decisions. It was, you know, when you when you do it smart, it's a good feeling to end the day, but when you have to really to push and to run, then it's not a good feeling. And yeah, it was a hard day in the flat after, and I was totally tired, but it was crazy experience, and I think it's good to make this experience once in five years or five editions.
Even, you have to make some mistakes sometimes, but yeah, no, no. That was fascinating to watch. I was not envying you as you were getting blown out of there. Anytime you're flying 100k, it can be a little nerve-wracking. Okay, couple quick questions more, we'll switch gears here, but these two I really do want to ask you. In the 2013 race, when you had the really good weather—I think I have this right, and if I'm wrong again, correct me—but you had a really, I understand you had a really scary flight over the Furka, and when you landed near your house, and you were quite emotional, and I think it was really
Great, I think for many pilots around the world to hear that, even Chrigel gets scared. And I just want to know, we all get scared flying at some point; what do you do with your fear? How do you manage it? And also, you showed me these beautiful videos of your kids learning how to fly before the race when we were in Salzburg, before the gun went off. I think you have a six-year-old and ten, seven...
and nine
And they're learning how to fly, which I thought was so cool. But so, I guess two questions: how do you manage the fear, and then also, how do you justify the flying with your kids? And does it make you nervous that they're learning how it
Sounds crazy, but when I do crazy things, or the competition like Ixals, I really focus on the moment, on my own, or on my problems, and there is nothing else. And so I say, as long I can focus really on the problem or on the fact, and I can compete. But when I start to think about other things, or about my family, I have to think about stop to do competitions, because then it starts to be danger. So there's one part, and I think the other part is that in when
I was young. I realized now, 10 years after, I realized that when I was young, I really risk all the time. I take risk in all the flights just to have fun, and now I realize that it's not smart. And I try to risk only when I can gain, when I can win something, so I can have less risk during the year or during the flights, and also in the competition, I try to risk only when it really needs or when I can win something, so
As often I can, I try to fly with more safety to have less risk, and when I know that I have to risk in the moment, I do this really focused, and it helps me to be more safe. I think because to fly and to think about no risk, it's more danger than to fly and to know that it's risky. And I think with all the experience I made now, I can feel better when it's on the limit. When I was young, I never feel that it's on the limit or that I do something wrong; I always think about
Everything, it's okay. And now, with all the experience, I feel when it's dangerous, and so I say, during a day, and there is so moments they are really dangerous, but all the other moments it's not dangerous. So I have, or I try to switch the focus; it means when it's not dangerous, I can relax, and when it's dangerous, or it starts to be dangerous, I can really focus on the moment. And that was two or three times, really in a bad situation. It was when I come to Switzerland in the afternoon, there was very windy on the south, and it pushed me down to a hole.
where was some kind of north fern, and it was really turbulent on the ground, and I realized that the landing now will be really risky, but I had always no other choice. And then I was looking for the biggest field, and I was spiraling down like a ground spiral, because as long I stay in a spiral, I have a lot of pressure, and I'm more resistant against the gusts. And with this ground spiral, I was really focused to land safe, and when I landed, there was not too much wind, but after when I packed the wing, there was gust about 50, 55, maybe, and I realized, okay, this was also a bit of luck to have no problems.
But yeah, the same was on the second day when I took off in the lee side of the Alps. In the south of the Alps, there was strong north wind, and I realized that the start is the most difficult part of the flight. To fly away and then in the wind, it's not the problem, but the takeoff will be danger. It was not strong wind, but turbulent downwind, and I really was waiting there for 10 minutes to understand how is the wind, what what going on with the gusts, and how often they come, how fast, how turbulent they can be.
And then I was really waiting for a good moment, and then I took off. So it means to realize that it's a dangerous situation. And then to check how, what can be the problems, or the what I can do that it's most safety, and it was the goal, and finally it was working well. And this was a really typical situation where I know that if I can go in the air, I really can win a lot, because after I was really fast in the front because of this flight, and I know that the point is not easy.
The take off is very risky, but if it works, for sure, it's very efficient, and so I try to switch during the day, during the race, between relaxing, enjoying, and really focusing, concentrating on the risk
Chrigel, when you look back at the five wins, I know you're humble. This is a pointed question; this might be difficult to answer. I think there's all the obvious things that we can all point to, but if you could narrow it down to three things, what are the three things that you most have that the rest of us don't? As the days go by, it just gets harder and harder to reel you in because of these decisions, like at the gas tall and being able to fly in that strong fern. It was a really amazing move, and you talk about it being a gut move and kind of intuition, something that just feels good.
But is there—maybe this is something you've been able to identify when you're doing your coaching as well—but what are the pieces of this chess game that you're playing better than the rest of us? I
think that my experience of the competition is very helpful, and the experience when I was young and when I tried, when I ground handled the wing, when I was 10, 12, I started to ground handle with the wing of my father, and I was too young. I was 14, 15, I started to fly a little, and I really play a lot with my wing, and I think this feeling of this part of life, it was really, it helps me to get a good feeling, and for sure it's all of this experience together which you need on this adventure.
But we discuss a lot about what's the difference, and I think I like to gamble, so it means to take a decision and to follow this to the end, if it's good or not. The most important is to follow, to do what I really feel is the best, and then to take some decisions which are, in the best case, it's very efficient, and in worst case, it's really bad. But to find the balance between the risk and how good is the chance that it works, I think that's
Always a gamble, and I really like to gamble. And most of the athletes, they don't want to risk; they really want to go safe, step by step to Monaco. And I think in an adventure, it's just not possible to go always with the best decision, always with no risk. I mean, sportive risk, not about safety; I mean about if it's flyable or if it's nice to be there.
It's a sportive risk, and I really like to risk if it's possible or not, and I also really often think about the best case. I don't think about the worst case, and to focus on the best case, I think it's more important, and it gives you the possibilities to do this. It means when I launched, in all the people they say it's not possible to fly to Baldo because of the valley breeze, and in my eyes, the best case was to land to top land on the Monte Baldo.
And I really was focusing on the best case, and finally it was not really possible, but I land quite close, so I almost get the best case. And maybe this also is a big difference to the most of the athletes, but I know that when I do coaching, I try to explain how it can work, or we train how to think about the best case. And I know that it's really difficult because it's characteristic of a people, and there are many people in the world, and some of the people, they are always positive, and some of them, they are negative; they always think about the problems.
And people, they think about problems to switch to think about the best case, that's not easy, yeah.
That's maybe not teachable and
I think for me, it's a big, big luck, and I'm very happy to know that I can focus on the best case and not thinking on the worst case. When I was young and I won some competitions, I was not realizing that I'm able to do this, but now when I work with Thomas, he can explain me about how it works in the head, and he said it's a big advantage. I have to think about the best cases I
Think that's a great point. After the last race, I went back and really watched the race again. You can play it back; they had it up for months. It's really interesting. Yeah, and I remember when I fly here at home, or when I've done my good flights, or in Alaska, those kind of places, the weight of the decisions is so much less because I don't care if I land in the middle of nowhere. I have some stuff in my bag and I can walk forever and it's no big deal. But in the ex Alps, I find that when I watch what you do, you're very often going back.
You're going back to a climb; you're making moves that are taking you, well, off course line that if they don't work, you're putting yourself in a worse place. But they work because they're the things that make sense. But I think many of us really have a hard time doing that in the race because instantly you're thinking, "Okay, I've just hiked 6,000 meters today. If I bomb out again, if this doesn't work, I'm putting myself in a tougher place." And that's hard. What
I think about the sportive risk. It means when you take 10 times a day some risk, it means to fly back for a better climb or to have a better line. Then it's very important to have success because all or everything, each success makes you stronger in the head. It means if you risk 10 times and it works for 9 times, then it's more efficient than if you risk just 3 times a day and it's 3 times it's working. So it means it's better 90% of
luck or of working than 100% but with less trying, so it means it's better to always try to have luck to optimize and sometimes to have a bad luck, but if less you try, if less efficient it is, so and it makes always sense to me to try minimum to try and yeah, if you don't try, for sure it will not work, yeah, Chrigel.
In your coaching, what are the—what are kind of the three things that come up again and again? You know, the things that you see that people need to work on, whether that be mistakes or lessons. And if you can break that down with the beginner pilot, the intermediate pilot, and the advanced pilot—maybe they're the same with all three, but what are you constantly going, "Okay, here's what we need to work on?"
I think the most of the pilot they ask how to fly more safe, and I think that it's the wrong question. How to fly more safe? I think you have to think about you, like, to fly or not, or you like to risk or not. And all the pilots they fly good. This is a person they like to risk. They normally they drive car, at their drive car fast in the road. They go in the mountains, they do climbing, they do skiing, you know, they really do. They like adventure, and pilots they really stay careful and they like to life.
These pilots they are not free and not good in this sport. And this makes, often makes it different, but it's very hard to teach and how to fly more safe. For sure, it's good to have the view of, you know, the body builder, for example. They like to go on the podium and show the muscles and that they can win the competition. They really have to go into the fitness center to train every single muscle, and for the training of the muscle, you have to think about the exercise exam and the machine you choose, and you have to think about the weight you choose and how many
Moves you do, you know? And a bodybuilder really need a lot of training; otherwise, he loses in the competition. And the paraglider pilot, they just like to fly and they don't do any training. They do, they often, they don't like to train ground handling. They don't really do safety training, or maybe once a year, and maybe they do one full stall a life. And it means there are many muscles that are not working well, but they really like to go on the podium and show the muscles to win the competition, and it's just not possible.
And do a coaching, I try to speak about such points. It means to
Visualize the life, the problems, and when the pilot can see or find the motivation to train his muscles, and often it's a good way or a first step to, for example, fly more safe or to fly more efficient. How
Much do you fly a year?
Personally, I do around 300 hours in a year, okay? So, but also 300 or 400 flights, it means with the acro flights, it's 8 minutes normally, and it takes 8 flights, 10 flights a day, and also some cross-country flights from 10 to 12 hours, and the average is around 300 hours.
You've spoken of, you know, when you're flying, you need to be doing one of three things: you're climbing, you're gliding, or you're planning. I think I saw that in an
article that I don't want you to break each one of those down, but how do you approach that when you're talking about coaching? I mean, to me, I got a lot out of that because, to me, it was what that means to me is there should be no time in the flight where you're not really concentrating. Is it as simple as that, or is, you know, break that down, yeah?
The idea about this is to focus on the moment. It means it starts at the takeoff, and pilots, they think about landing before the takeoff. They are not free to focus on the takeoff. So to have a plan where to fly and maybe to land, it's important. But before the takeoff, we have to have your brain free for the takeoff, and after the takeoff, it's to find the thermals. And then it's not the question about how much speed or which line you have to fly; it's more the question and where is the place to climb, and then to focus on the turn.
You have to do to watch out for signs like birds or other wings, and if it's working, and you can climb, maybe in the upper part of the lift, you can think about the next glide. And when you decide to glide, then you don't have to think about termling, and you glide to the point where you decided before. So it means to switch the mode, or the focus. I think it's very important, and as better you can do this mode, as more efficient you can fly, for sure it depends on the conditions.
When it's climbing everywhere, it's very easy, everybody can do it, and if it's not climbing, then it starts to be very tricky and you have to switch in a survival mode to really stay in there. But as soon you can climb a little, you have to think about transition, and then you have to think about how much speed, where to fly, which line, and then to reach this point where you think to climb, but to fly more efficient, it's also good to have more than one point, than one spot to fly on, because when the cycle of the thermal is not working on the first spot, you immediately can fly to the second or to the third spot and
From outside, it looks that you fly straight on the right place, but what I really do is to fly from one spot to the next spot where I thought before that it should work. And I think there are many things to focus, but you have to think about while flying how
Much of your flying, do you attribute to intuition versus this kind of calculated decision making? Yeah,
I'm specialist, I just lead me by my stomach, so it means calculation I don't like so much because I'm not good in calculations. I don't like so much the facts, it means to have weather forecast to know how much wind, to know how much wind is on the ground because I say I can't do something else, then I stay in the moment. So the moment and the facts in the moment are important, and so I, when I see a storm is coming, I don't have to calculate how much wind they come out and I can land. So I just feel I can fly more forward, or I have to land, but it's the most of my decisions from the stomach and the
I don't know that this is going to be something you can answer, but year after year, I got my first taste for how you do this. You won't even remember this day, I'm sure, but years ago, before the 2015 ex alps, it was a pretty good day, and I was flying, and I think you launched after me, and we got down to where you typically top up to push into
the
glider
right
the terrain, flying straight as an arrow into the, let's call it, a turn point. It wasn't a calm or anything, it was just flying into the glacier and then you turned around. I say you because later I found out, and turned around and flew straight and, you know, you just did this big triangle and you made in your comments—I had to translate it from German, but you made in your comments that you didn't turn, you know? And is this been something you've been working on from the beginning or just, you know, like I've been told that you, you know, when you do your triangles like up to
I mean, it's just a very different approach, but when I look at your, for example, flying to Monaco year after year, you're the only one that does it. You're the only one that makes it down there. You got all that sea breeze, all that headwind; you did it again this time. You fly straight, and I don't think any of us understand how you do that when there's so much wind. Is that something you can answer, or that just intuition and
It's always the situation that makes it possible to fly straight, but I think that a friend of mine, when he was really young, he said, "Okay, while turning, you fly 50% in the wrong direction, so let's fly straight." And it really makes sense, and I really, um, I with with the new wings, even with with the three line, and now you can fly straight, straight, straight, and and just turn when it's really important. But as long you can fly straight, it's much more efficient because of no turning, and on the terrain, it means on the ridge
or on the mountains, you always have this warm air which climbs a little, and on this little climbs, you can fly straight, straight, straight, and while climbing, you get the strong lift. But after the lift, you have thin air up high because it's no warm air from the terrain coming up, so it means after turning, and you for sure will glide down. And when you can follow a ridge, you not really climb, but you don't lose altitude, so it's more efficient to fly straight on a ridge quite low than to turn up and glide down, and
Are you right on the terrain, literally just right off the tree tops?
Yeah, sometimes for sure, it's strong lift, and then it's also up high, but when
You come low, you can follow the cliff, and often it's better to fly quite slow. It means trim speed, or just a little of acceleration instead of thermaling and fly full speed. So when you fly, you can calculate when you turn, you turn 50% in the wrong direction. It means instead of 60, you fly 30, and when you fly trim speed all the way, it's 40. It means it's double speed, it's almost 10 more up, and it makes it more efficient and more relaxed normally.
Totally different subject: before the last X-Alps, you had an accident and you broke one or two ankles, one
the right ankle, the
Right ankle? Have you had other accidents? No.
No, I was—I think I was quite lucky in these 18 years now, and I had, after 16, I had the first 16 accident.
And it was in a flight from with a tandem with my wife, so it was after a long hiking flight. I was really tired, and I had my backpack on with 15 kilo of climbing gear, and finally we landed in dash. And my mistake was not to have the big field. I was trying to land as close to train station as possible and into the houses. There was in the evening at six, there was no wind, but there was some turbulences, and finally it feels like falling down from altitude of house, so it means 10, 12 meters.
It was always free fall, I think. It was the same sink rate like with the reserve, around six, seven meter per second, and I even had more hard landings before or after, but it was with the back protection on the harness, and I was really focused on the hard landing. And in this case, I was not thinking about the problem. I was not thinking about the hard landing, and the last two seconds of the flight just went down, and so I think because I was not focused on the problem, I broke my leg. And sure, my wife—I hold my wife—and we had light equipment, so no back
protection. I realized in the last second, I have to stay on my feet and not on my ass because of my back. So it was not really a crash, but it was too much for my ankle, so I broke them. And finally, I was very lucky; it was just my ankle and not the back of us.
gliding. What can you pass along to us about how you seem to glide so efficiently? And again, I know this is a hard thing to—I've asked many of the pilots on the show about gliding, and Russ Ogden had a really cool thing to say about you. He said, "Listen, most good pilots have all the same knowledge that Chrigel does; he just executes it better." But I have often find—I haven't been flying nearly as long as you have, but I often find gliding—sometimes you find convergence lines and it's really obvious, and it's really nice to get a nice line, but other times I find it quite hard to identify if the glider is pulling me into more lift or more sink.
That very fine line I find can be hard to identify, especially on bar. Maybe if you're not on bar, it's more sensitive, but what things can you... is that something you talk about with your clients a lot? Yeah.
But I think that's a very difficult part because there is gliding, the feeling for the lines, and how much speed it's the best, and there is climbing in termling. And, for example, in the World Championship, World Cup, there are 120, 150 pilots, and all of them fly the same wing and the same wing load, same harness, everything is the same. But from this 120 pilots, there are maybe 5 they are able to climb better, and maybe 10 they are able to find the good lines. And I know, for example, that my strength is to fly fast in turbulent conditions, but not to climb in weak conditions.
So to find the good lift, the core of a thermal, and to climb well, I'm really bad in this, and I really spoke with these 5 people, they really climb well, and I was not able to find out what I can change to have a better climb. You know, there is two aspects: one is to know from the other what it's fact, and the other part it's to change on myself. And finally, I just realized that I not the best in climber, but I'm really good in high speed finals, so I try to focus on my strengths and to accept my weak points, and it helps me to stay motivated in the competition.
For example, but for sure when it's a day which weak thermals, I know it's not the day to win, but they are maybe another day which strong conditions, and I know today is my day and I can compete well and This is the fact, but to know about the feeling in glide and in climbing, it's very, very difficult. It means on a good level, it means for a student it's more easy to explain how to climb and how to find the good lines, but in this level of World Cup pilots, the level is so similar, but still differences
if
You could go back to your 50-hour self when you were 10 or 12, you can't even remember it, but what would you have done if you could rewind the clock back to that time? Would you do anything different in? Would you, would you heed any advice that you maybe got but didn't heed, or would you train differently? Would you?
Definitely, I would not flying high performance wings so early because I was from the school wing directly to a high end wing, and for sure the step was too big, but I was not realizing that it's dangerous. And the other part is to not risk too much, or not always risk so much, but it's very hard because I know that while this experience I did, I really learned a lot how to do it, so it gives me also a lot of feeling and
know-how, and finally I say, okay, there was always too much risk, but it was important to make this experience. So it was very hard to teach my brother when I was learning this infinity tumbling. He was asking me, "What he can change? What he can do?" And I want him to push to make a mistake, but I also want him to help to be better, and it was very difficult to understand the to understand what I can help him going
In the other direction, you know, you've ticked the World Championships, you've ticked the Acro, you've ticked the hardest race on earth. What do you see yourself doing in five, ten years?
I say when I can compete in hike and fly competition, I really like to do this, but my body has to help me to train to be ready for the races. And for sure, I like to spread my experience in coaching in tandem flights and also in speeches to companies. Also, I think that I also work with the Swiss League to help other pilots to improve her style, and yeah, I hope to fly as long as I can because I really like to fly what
I want to be mindful of your time. I know it's getting late and you're part of the world. I have so many more questions to ask you, but maybe we can do a follow-up episode or something. But what would you like to impart on the flying community? I think there's going to be so many people here that really want a takeaway. They're so inspired by what they see you doing; they're so kind of mystified by what you're doing. What would you say is, how can we as pilots emulate what you're doing and become better? What are the things that you would suggest that they focused on foremost? You mentioned like ground handling and SIV, maybe it's—is it more the foundational stuff?
Is it just hours?
I really think that it's very helpful to think about the personal goals, to think about why I do paragliding, and then to realize, "Okay, this is my goal, and there I want to go." After you can think about the time you spend for this sport, and then maybe to think about optimizing some parts to reach the personal goal, and for sure, if the goal is very high and maybe needs the goals before the small steps to take some courses to make training specific.
training to practice more hours and to reach your goal, but I think first of everything, it's good to think about the personal goal and to know why you do this, so
Okay, final question: if you could do an ex-op style event anywhere in the world, but not Switzerland, if you could do it anywhere, where would you like to do one?
That's a good question. Definitely not in the flat I
think the Indian part or the Himalaya will be very interesting because it's a, it's everything, it's more extreme, it's more, more difficult, but, but it's also more
more an adventure, I think. The Alps, it's very easy because the people living here of the infrastructure and to go out in the nature where you stay really out, it will be more hard but also more interesting.
Well, we would, I know our tiny little community here, Nate Scales, who I think you know from the 2007 race, and myself and our little community, we get really, really tall here. We fly with oxygen, and we would sure love to have you come out here and show us how to fly out. It's big air, I think you would really enjoy it. So maybe one of these days I can talk you into come and visit. I think you
So much, it's just such an honor, and I can't wait to share this with the world. Thank you so much. I'll let you get some sleep. Bye bye, ciao. Well,
I hope you enjoyed that amazing to sit down with, not arguably the best pilot in the world. So awesome to watch him win, it's incredible the amount of talent and the guys he's beating in that race is. It's really a feat that he's pulling off again and again and again, five wins in a row, just truly phenomenal. Something I don't think we'll ever see again. So my takeaway, right when I hung up with Chrigel after we closed, there have been a few pretty serious accidents here back in the states when I was gone, and it made me think about one of the things that I think is a major, major misconception when people watch something like the X-Alps.
It's like, "God, these guys take so much risk," and I have to say, in the last two Races 2015, and this one certainly. There are times when we're flying in what I would call very non-recreational type air, pretty strong stuff, but you can see it in the results. There were a couple accidents, for sure, from flying. Most of the people folding were because of exhaustion, or blisters, or something non-flying related, but I think it's hard for people to understand the amount of training that goes in, and what training gives you is a margin, and the more you train, the more you can handle. And Chrigel talks eloquently about that in this podcast about how he eliminates a lot of risk through very serious, pointed training that's
Not just going out and flying around, it's very purposeful. He's learning, he's adapting, and he makes some comparisons to other sports, like even backpacking and trekking and just being adventurous, that I think really apply to piloting. So that's one thing I just wanted to throw out there is, if you don't have the training, if you don't have the foundations, if you don't have those skills, then you know, you need to apply that to what you can do. You need to reel it back and, you know, fly within the, you know, the wind levels and the day levels and the time of day and the places you're going that suit your skill level.
The other thing is time. You know, when I realized, you know, what a lot of the ex-alps pilots have, including myself, is a lot of time to dedicate to this sport. When you have a lot of time, you can choose the days better, obviously. In the ex-alps, you can't choose the days, but You, you know, we have the luxury of backing off when it makes sense and not flying on a certain day when it's not epic, whereas when you don't have a lot of time—let's say you're a hundred-hour pilot a year, as opposed to, you know, most of the ex-alps guys are 300-plus easy—you know, when you don't have the time, then there's all this pressure. It's Saturday, you've only got the weekend, it's not as good as you hoped, but you know, it's Saturday, you've only got this one day. Be cognizant of that, be thinking about that before, you know, you pull the trigger and go into the sky, because it only takes once.
And I think that's what's getting a lot of people is that there's all this extraneous pressure that, you know, that works its magic on our minds, and our minds don't, they can't handle it as well. So anyway, just a little hands up to remember what we're doing, what we're participating in. I hate to harp on the safety stuff too much, but it just made me really mindful of it, you know, talking to Chrigel that there's a lot of things we can do to dial it back and to be safe and have long, happy, fulfilling careers in this sport and, you know, and not get hurt. And that's what this, this podcast is all about. So, as I said at the top of the show, this is a listener-supported podcast.
There are various ways you can support us, either through Patreon or PayPal directly, or you can also share it with your friends or put up a rating on iTunes or Stitcher or Google Play, however you listen to the show. And I've got some great giveaways for any of you who do that: very cool GoPro knee mount that Ben gave us, Ben French down in New Zealand, and also after this one wrapped up because Chrigel was pretty tired, it was getting late in his part of the world. I still had a lot of questions that you Had given me through the Facebook, I put up a post there that I was going to be talking to Chrigel and ask for questions. Got some fantastic ones. We didn't have the time in this one to go through them, but we did a follow-up, and I did ask him all those questions. So, if you want to get that, we're going to make that available only to our Patreon supporters.
So, go to patreon.com forward slash cloudbasemayhem. If you're not already a supporter there, sign up. You can sign up at any different level. All we ask for is a buck a show, but if you want to sign up for more, there's things like trucker hats and t-shirts and books and all kinds of stuff as a thank you for doing that. And I'll see you next time, and we're going to have that episode up, that kind of bonus episode up, here in a few days. So, check that out. Also, wanted to announce that North and Known went live on the 17th of July on Red Bull TV, so it's now available for free on the interwebs. If you have Red Bull TV at home, you can watch it on the big screen. It's also available online. Go to my Facebook page, facebook.com forward slash Gavin McClurg, or website cloudbasemayhem.com.
You can find the links for that, or just google it. North and Known Alaska Traverse, and highly recommend you watch that on the big screen. The scenery is pretty insane, and really proud of this film. It's been doing great at the film festivals, winning lots of awards, and yeah, just a cool, very, very cool project that took a lot of years to put together. So, hope you enjoy it, and I hope you enjoyed the show, and I hope to see you on the next one. Thanks very much. Talk to you soon. Cheers.