Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloudbase Mayhem. This is by far the most requested guest we've ever had. The great Chrigel Maurer just won his fifth straight X-Alps, three times world champion, acro champion. He's won the X-Pyr, Dolomiti Man, you name it. This guy crushes. He is the undisputed king of our sport. The best pilot the sport has ever had, probably ever will have. I always call him the Kelly Slater of paragliding. This was just an amazing opportunity to sit down with him. We were planning on doing it in Monaco at the end of the race, but of course, very few people made it to Monaco this time. It was actually quite reassuring to get on the phone with Chrigel tonight and see that he looks a lot like I feel.
This race broke a lot of folks. In fact, most of us, that was a really hard go. And it was good to see that it even crushed. And somebody like Chrigel, even he had to do just a ton of time and ground miles and ground game. Before we get into this amazing talk, stick with me here for a second. Got a few things of housekeeping. Number one, sorry for the gap. I was planning on sitting down with Pal Takats, which I am doing here in the next couple of days, for a show that we were going to release during the race that we were going to line up before the gun went off in Salzburg. But we didn't get a chance to do that. Free week before the race was pretty hectic and the weather was terrible. And so I just didn't get a chance to do that. So I apologize for the big gap here, but excited to bring you this show.
We're certainly coming back with a bang. Nate Scales. And Nate, for the last couple of years, has been running what he's called, calling them Intermountain Wide Open. Those of you in Nevada, Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Utah, did I say Montana? Yeah.
We've got this kind of open, friendly comp. It's not. It's not really a comp, but it's just a means to get people together. It starts July 29th, ends August 13th. So that's two weeks and three weekends. It's basically your best four scores on X contest. And then we get together for the final weekend and all fly together. But you can fly wherever you want and in any of those zones. And you put up your score and it's just fun. It's a hundred bucks to enter. It's a very good chance of winning a whole bunch of that money back. The last couple of years, it has been an absolute blast. We've gotten it. Insanely good weather. So if you want to come out to the Rocky Mountains and get really super tall and fly some big lines with great folks that are really stoked, I invite you to reach out to me or Nate.
You can get a hold of me via email and I'll put you in the right direction. He doesn't spend a lot of time on social media, so this isn't something we really put out there. But if you're in the zone, I highly recommend it. It's been a blast the last couple of years. So if you're not at the Canadian Nats or doing something else, come join us for the Intermountain Wide Open. We're going to do another little giveaway. One of the podcast fans, a guy named Ben French down in New Zealand, he makes these really cool knee acro GoPro mounts. Not really acro, but they're just GoPro mounts for your knee that are great for training and for observing what you're doing in SIV or acro or whatever. They're called WindyMounts.com. He's given me four of those, so I'm going to give three of them away or maybe even four because I'm now using Garmin.
And we'll do it like we did last time. For the D 'Lorme and for the Blue Sky Vario. Whoever puts out the best rating on iTunes or Stitcher or however you listen to the podcast or maybe if you share it on social media, just send me how you've shared it. If you do it in some kind of cool or funny way, then I'll pick out the four that I like the best. We'll do that, let's say, at the end of August and send you one of these mounts. They're really cool. They're really well put together. So, yeah, give us a rating on any of those, however you listen to your podcast, and that just helps spread the word. Another little thing is Patreon. We have this way of supporting the show where you kind of set it and forget it and it's all on us to produce content.
Each time we produce content, you get billed at whatever level you decide to support us at, whether that's $1 or $3 or $5. I've just got these beautiful t-shirts in, these CloudBase Mayhem t-shirts and killer trucker hats. I've got some cool shorts. Swag there. One of these days, I'll be finishing my book. Anyway, you get rewarded for supporting us on Patreon. And one of the things we're going to do here with a future show is someone's going to interview me about the X-Alps. We've been getting a lot of requests for that and I don't have the interviewer yet. Maybe we'll do Nate or Farmer or somebody here in town and just talk about the X-Alps. And I'm going to put that out exclusively to those who support the show. This is a listener-supported podcast. Expenses are mounting. Those of you who support, thank you so much.
And those of you who don't, this is a little urge or nudge to get involved. And so we're going to put that out just to the Patreon supporters or those of you who have supported us through PayPal in the past. And so that'll just go out to just the folks that are supporting. It's going to be a fun show. We'll put that out here in the next couple of weeks. And yeah, it should be a blast. I think it's a blast. Anyway, talking about the X-Alps, this was a crusher of an event. We had really terrifically bad weather. Broke a lot of guys, but just a complete blast. Chrigel and I talk about the X-Alps quite a bit in this show. We also talk about risk. I put out this morning that I was going to be having him on the show and you, our listeners, gave me tons of great questions. I asked as many as I could.
I promise if I didn't get that in there, I apologize, but we did cover a ton of ground. Really talked a lot about safety, what he's learned over the years. He does a lot of coaching at home. And we talk about, you know, what he, what kind of valuable stuff he's passing along, climbing, gliding and planning and competitions and some of the things, not all, but some of the things that make Chrigel, Chrigel. This was just a really humbling experience. I was very thankful to have his time.
It's a terrific talk. You're going to dig it. You're going to learn a lot and it's going to inspire you to get out there and train. Without further ado, please enjoy. God, I did enjoy this conversation with Chrigel Mauer. Chrigel, this is even a little bit scary to have you on the show. You're by far the most requested guest and I'm sorry we couldn't do this in person in Monaco, but thank you so much for coming on the mayhem. It was fabulous to compete with you, sort of compete with you again in the X-Alps just a week ago. I think we wrapped that up and it's just, just fantastic to get the opportunity to talk to you. So first of all, congratulations with a fifth unprecedented, amazing, incredible to watch win.
I know we're both just looking at you here. You look like I feel, I know we're both pretty tired, but congratulations. Just an awesome effort and you must be really psyched.
Yeah. Hi, Gavin. Thank you very much for this. And yeah, it was great and nice to hear you again. Yeah, I'm very tired now. Still, still after one week, but I recover fast and I hope to be ready for training in two weeks, I think.
So you've already got your eyes on the next one.
Yeah, there is some next competitions and I like to train more hard, more fast to be ready for the short and fast competitions like a Dolomitenman. But yeah, it's a kind of competition with hike and fly, but in a, in a very short, short time. The race, it's around 30 minutes. It's completely different to the X-Alps. But yeah, next challenge.
Okay, well, let's, let's get into it. I have some, I put out that I was going to be talking to you this morning on Facebook, got some great questions. The temptation for me, like I said before we started recording is just to ask about the X-Alps because it fascinates me and you, you just dominate it. It's watching you perform there is really exceptional. So, so I do have some X-Alps questions, but then we'll transition to, you know, I know you're doing a lot of coaching and guiding and I really want to tap into some of that knowledge so we can spread some of that. But first, just, just some X-Alps stuff that I think people are curious about. One thing is your wing choice. You know, you, you have moved through many manufacturers and I understand before this race and correct me if I'm wrong, but you were, you were trying quite a few different wings.
What's your method? What's your methodology there? Why? And why do you choose a three-liner? I think in every X-Alps you've flown a three-liner. Obviously your, your wing of choice when you're competing and flying in the Alps is a two-liner. So why the three-liner for the race and why did you end up with the Skywalk?
Yeah, for sure it was, for me it was important to have the right wing. It was very interesting to see what's, what's on the market. And finally I choose the three-line Skywalk because it was the best compromise I say in, in performance, in safety, in, in fun. When I fly the two-liner I can feel a lot of performance but only when I'm really in a good shape. It means during one day, 10 hours it's okay. But in a race like X-Alps after some days I get so tired that I can't I can't have a benefit of the performance of the two-liner.
So it means it's more important to feel comfortable on the wing than to have more performance. And now there is since three editions of X-Alps they fly with two-liners and the best result of a two-liner was rank four I think. And there was no two-liner on the podium so it shows that that the performance average of the of the two-liner it's not important in an adventure race. And I tried out for example to take off in strong wind conditions to land in very small spots and I never feel really comfortable on a two-liner because the the performance it's just too much.
And I have more possibilities on the three-liner and so I I can feel better even when I'm on the limit when I'm tired. And this finally was for me the decision to have a three-liner wing. And finally the X-Alps 3 from Skywalk was the wing it was finished in May. In May I did my first two competitions pre-competitions before the X-Alps. And so it was the the completest wing that I had. The finish wing finally there was more than more than three wings three-line wings and yeah I chose one in May and I think it was a good decision because the the performance was quite good stability was perfect and also the handling was cool to fly.
And for me it was it was a great equipment.
I read you and I talked about this a little bit in the in the press conference when we did that in 2015 but I read that really you know for the physical side of the training you kind of aim for 30,000 meters a month and run up to the X-Alps. What about the mental side of things? One of the things that I know that is very different for you some of the athletes just because they have to do it because they have jobs or they don't have the time but when we sat next together in the press conference I said what parts of the course have you been flying and learning and you said no I don't do that at all before the race. You know I like to because it's so different in May and June than it is in July I like to go in and see it with fresh eyes and fly it on the day which really surprised me.
I don't know why it surprised me knowing it's you but it's you know would you have that same approach if it was in a place that you don't know like say if you were doing an X-Alps in the States or something or somewhere where you haven't flown would you still do it that way?
Yeah we was really testing a lot of movement before we did the first X-Alps and then it was the first edition and we was just not possible to visit all the places so we tried to train as good as possible at home and then we found out that it's working quite well and finally I was competing in the Pyrenees in the X-Pyrenees and we was not able to stay there to visit any places and it also works well and finally I have an example from this year edition because there was the turn point two in Slovenia and I was I never was there but I had some questions and I was asking I think 10 or 12 teams
they was on this turn point and they was not able to answer my question because one day say I was there and I was flying so good I was 1000 meter above the other says I was there but it was not flyable it was cloudy I have no idea that the third says okay I was there but it was snow so I have no idea so it means there was 10 teams that was there but no of them had an idea how it is or the other example is the the turn point five Garda like Black Garda Brent Baldo all the people they they talk to me they say it's not possible to fly to the turn point because of the valley breeze of the stability it never will be possible and on that day when I flew there I never flew there before and on that day it was just weak valley breeze so it was possible to fly until the
close to the turn point and not only for me it was also flyable for Kaspar and it was because the valley breeze was was unusual soft and this shows that that when you know a place very well that in the race it can be different and then you have no benefit it's the opposite you have a problem
you have these preconceived notions that aren't correct exactly
and so this was one point what should I say it's not efficient to check all the points and the other point is clearly that that the race was in a new route and this new places it was very interesting for me to see and I was really motivated to to see all the places where are new and I thought it gives me the the motivation to do the race for a fifth time it was like I was I feel like a a child they can discover the world and it was a great feeling also this edition to have a new new places and to have more pics of the of the Alps now and
it's it was a good motivation to have no idea before and
it was a good motivation what is your what is your year look like in a run up to the X-Alps in terms of preparation we've all heard these crazy stories about how
exacting your training is but also how experimental you know you have this there's a video of you launching in the X-Pyr and just these crazy wins and everybody's seen it it's fantastic and you just walk up and there's another pilot who's you can tell there's no way they're going to launch yeah and you you just do this incredible launch but I've heard of you you know testing out rotor behind cornices you know in the snow so if you crash it would be safe and I've heard you know ground handling in 60 kilometers an hour win I mean one are these true because we've all heard them but also is that really are you doing a lot of that kind of thing in preparation for the X-Alps in anticipation of just flying in terrible conditions is that is that is that because of the X-Alps or is that just how you train
no I think when I was test pilot for other ones I was really often on the limit because it was it was just my job and after I really like to to check my limit or the limits of my equipment and as long I feel good I go forward so when I feel bad because of conditions or myself I have to I have to stop and turn around and I know that when I want to compete in a hard race I really have to to train hard to be ready and as hard I train as easier it is in the race it means
flying in in in in wind conditions they are around 50
it's very hard to handle but when it's a little bit less it means windy about 40 it feels like easy and when I can try to take off in strong wind conditions and when I can do this in the snow then it means that I have more safety when something is wrong and when I can do this often and I know how to manage I can do this in a race in a in a in a normal takeoff it means it means to train even harder than it has to be in the race it's my goal
is
mental training part of your program too because I know we talked before the race about Thomas and I know he's a sports psychologist and you know is there are there things you do for your head before something like the X-Ups or maybe even before you know when you were doing a lot more competing in the World Cups and you had your you know you had the three time world champion is there are there are there very are there things you do because I know your physical training is incredibly rigorous we just talked about some of the things you do for flying are there things you do for your head
yeah I think it's it's two it's two two points one point is that I that I do this automatically so it means I not do special training for my head but I really do a lot of dreaming dreaming how I can fly how I can win a race how I can do crazy things like aerobatic maneuvers I was dreaming about infinity tumbling and after I I was able to fly it for example and this I do often in the night so it's a natural thing I do and now I I had some some
yeah I was thinking about a fifth addition for myself is it is it smart as a as a father to do this again and to fight hard in the nature and then I was thinking about some points which which motivates me to to do it right and when I was in in the week before the race in Fuschl I got sick because of cold and I was not feeling good and I really was on the on the corn or on the border to think about I think it's over I have no chance against the others and finally there was there was just the the mental training to to think about my strengths so I I was thinking about the last additions and I think about the the nice parts in the race and I really read them down to have to have paper in front of me and I can see okay my strengths are the flying the nice parts are the the adventure the sunrise the sunset
the team spirit to be out in the nature but have a team with me and all these nice things and I think that's that's a part of mental training which I did especially for the race in this year edition especially because I was sick and not thinking about winning and that helps me a lot and and so I was on the on the Sunday I was ready to to start and after some hours in the race I could I could really focus on the race and there was no thinking about problems so all the things was away and I was really focused in the race and I was really happy to feel this change from the week before and to the race is
there more pressure on you now or less do you when you come into you know after winning it four times going into the fifth time are you more nervous or less nervous or do you get nervous yeah
it was funny that after one time after the first win it was less pressure because I thought okay I won already so the other have to and this time it was a bit more pressure because I really like to have five like five fingers and it was something like like yeah I won four so why not the fifth but I also was was agreed that they are young strong athletes I got older and older and yeah it's a long route and I have to be really in a good shape but after I think two days when I was in the front I the feeling came that I can do it so the pressure was away and I start to enjoy the race and the pressure was really in the pre-week in Fuschl it was quite big because it doesn't feel good and I really want to win
and after two days three days it was away and I think it was really a good feeling and also I was a bit relaxed and I could do better decisions and it was great to feel and on the second day I feel that I really can win the race again
are you I imagine not I mean you're always out front so maybe this is something you don't have much experience with but I know for me I start to become greatly influenced by what you and other pilots have done in front of me because I can see oh this line worked or that line doesn't work but in some ways that goes against what you were talking about in the beginning because that's a different day it's a different time it's a different time of the day are you are you influenced by what other pilots are doing clearly you are in like a world cup because everybody's doing the same thing but are you or are you just kind of on your own
it was funny I had a lot of fans of pilots they visit me because of the live tracking they found me easy and they really talk to me how I have to do which trail I have to go which launch I have to go which line I have to fly and I was really listening on them but finally I had to take my own decision and sometimes it was different what they say and sometimes I feel mad because people want to help me and I do I doesn't do this and and I think it's it's really really important to do the next step exactly what what you feel it's the best step because to do something what the other did can be helpful because you know that it's possible to go and then it's a good feeling and you can do the step but if you think about okay shit I like to do something else but before the other this this I have to do this also and I think then the feeling is not the best and then it's not the best to do it but for example on the second day I was a bit in the middle and all the all the the guys in front they went to the the Karasaltal valley in to the south and some of them they went into the to the left uphill to fly and I my support told me that that they do this so maybe I have to do the same and then I was thinking about why they do this it makes no sense to me
so better let's go to the right to the west yes and and finally it was the perfect decision but I don't know why it was just just a feeling I had let's go to the to the good side of the sun to go in the middle of two valleys so I can switch the valley maybe and afterwards the wind was perfect to switch the valley and it was a perfect move and I don't know why I did this but I don't in the moment I was not realize or not thinking about to do the same what the other do because in my eyes it doesn't make sense
that was that was
actually the next question I was going to ask you we were watching that move you know I pulled my night pass because we we'd been been told that the weather was going to be a lot better on the south and it just was we got into that that cold with Huber it was terrible it was unmanageable and really bad and it was a waste of it I wish I would have gone later because I maybe would have been smart and followed you but just such a smart move and I wanted to like I think I think a lot of the teams you know their supporters are really helping identify launches and finding out the weather and passing that along how much are how much are you relying on Tobias or your team to find launches versus you are you are you are you picking out the places to go or
and I'm going to tag on one question that too what what resources are you using if you're comfortable you don't have to spill the beans but are you using other than your team
yeah our strategy was that the team was watching out for for for takeoffs it means I had two guys at home they checked in the Google Googlers where I can go and they they was able to send me some tracks which I can import in my mobile phone to navigate and my support Tobias was checking these tracks or these routes if it makes sense or not and if he if he says okay it looks good I import and then I go this this I follow this track but finally there was always the goal to have information of my team and when I feel in my stomach what to do then it was the best so the final decision I took myself and
often it was a gamble you know it's a it's another in an adventure race it's it's never clear what it's the best to do or what's the best next step but there was was two guys they was helping me and I know how they work how they think and finally I did a decision yeah which I was not really sure that it works but it was maybe a decision which was the best motivation because when I went to the south from Matterhorn the weather forecast for French part was not so good and I really wanted to go to the French part because it's flyable normally it's very efficient in the air but it's 100 km more and the weather forecast was bad so I had to go the straight line following Italy and I really hide the flat of the Italy part yeah
it's terrible but
there was so many signs that it will be better on the Italy part but I had to go this route and finally I found my motivation that I say okay I did four time X-Alps in the French side and now I will discover the Italy part and this this idea gives me a good motivation to go full speed in Italy but I really was thinking about for two or three hours in the race why to go to Italy because it's a bullshit it's flat it's not flyable it's it's horrible and then I found okay
I have to go there because I never was there before and yeah this this idea gives me the motivation to go to Italy and finally the other like Benoit and Paul they was following me and I thought okay it's a good decision yeah
yeah yeah yeah tell me just we'll take a break from from the seriousness tell me about the the flight where you got blown out of the mountains you had thousands and thousands of people including myself watching that going holy shit he's just hit airspace and I'm this is just going to be so interesting if he hits that airspace and you just did this little kink of a move just around that CTR I was I can't imagine doing that flying in 100k an hour but was that was that really scary or was that air not too bad
it was a crazy day it was the the um how do you say there was the X-Alps day in five editions which I was making the the less and the minimum distance and after after this flight it was eight hours of competition in the day and it was just 20k and and it was so horrible and the problem was that in the morning um the first takeoff was in the cloud and then I thought to continue the ridge to go higher and higher maybe to have the wind for soaring and then they came um thunderstorms more than the forecast says and I was waiting in a storm for one more than one hour then I go up to the next stop and the wind was from more than from south west than from north west there was many different um compared to the forecast and
then I took off in the west and I bomb out so I had to walk up again 200 meters and then I launched into the other side in the lee and then I bomb out again and after the the next 600 meter climb there was perfect wind and I took off and immediately after the takeoff I felt okay this was a mistake it's so hard wind and the climb was four meters everywhere and in the west the next storm um came and I really wanted to fly into the to the valley to go into the alps to to to the west part but after this um I think the first five minutes for me it was clear it's it's too dangerous and then I turned around
first I was spiraling down to have less wind in the in the valley down but it even 500 meters lower there was strong wind and then I decided to go out in the flat to to stay safe just to stay safe and then I turned around and it was 90 95 in trim speed so I was flying full speed to have more than 100 and it was crazy that I flew out 17k and in this 17k I made 2k direction Monaco so it was it was a flight like like it was for nothing yeah and I was walking up for for four hours four and a half hours and bob out for two times and finally the flight was 17k and I made 10k direction Monaco
it was so horrible worse
than a slider yeah
it's unbelievable and and finally I was thinking about why I did such a mistake and for sure the weather forecast was different but finally it was just to try to have the possibility to fly and then it was a little worse and for sure walking was better but my strength is to fly and so it's the game so try always to do the best and if it's not possible walk then you can walk and yeah after eight hours of competing this day I was really afraid and I really want to push on the ground and then in the next five I did 40k on the ground and finally it was 50k
50 I think 58 or something on the day so it was not a really bad day but it was not the really good feeling to make all the good decisions it was you know when you when you do it smart it's a good feeling to end the day but when you have to really to push and to run then it's not a good feeling and yeah it was a hard day in the flat after and I was totally tired but it was crazy experience and I think it's good to make this experience once in five years or five editions
even you have to make some mistakes sometimes but yeah no no That was fascinating to watch I was not envying you as you were getting blown out of there anytime you're flying 100k it can be a little nerve wracking okay couple quick questions more we'll switch gears here but these two I really do want to ask you in the 2013 race when you had the really good weather I think I have this right and if I'm wrong again correct me but you had a really I understand you had a really scary flight over the Furka and when you landed near your house and you were quite emotional and I think it was really
great I think for many pilots around the world to hear that even Chrigel gets scared and I just want to know we all get scared flying at some point what do you do with your fear how do you manage it and also you showed me these beautiful videos of your kids learning how to fly before the race when we were in Salzburg before the gun went off I think you have a six year old and ten seven
and nine
and they're learning how to fly which I thought was so cool but so I guess two questions how do you manage the fear and then also how do you justify the flying with your kids and does it make you nervous that they're learning how it
sounds crazy but when I do crazy things or the competition like Ixals I really focus on the moment on my own or on my problems and there is nothing else and so I say as long I can focus really on the problem or on the fact and I can compete but when I start to think about other things or about my family I have to think about stop to do competitions because then it starts to be danger so there's one part and I think the other part is that in when
I was young I realized now 10 years after I realized that when I was young I really risk all the time I take risk in all the flights just to have fun and now I realize that it's not smart and I try to risk only when I can gain when I can win something so I can have less risk during the year or during the flights and also in the competition I try to risk only when it really needs or when I can win something so
as often I can I try to fly with more safety to have less risk and when I know that I have to risk in the moment I do this really focused and it helps me to be more safe I think because to fly and to think about no risk it's more danger than to fly and to know that it's risky and I think with all the experience I made now I can feel better when it's on the limit when I was young I never feel that it's on the limit or that I do something wrong I always think about
everything it's okay and now with all the experience I feel when it's dangerous and so I say during a day and there is so moments they are really dangerous but all the other moments it's not dangerous so I have or I try to switch the focus it means when it's not dangerous I can relax and when it's dangerous or it starts to be dangerous I can really focus on the moment and that was two or three times really in a bad situation it was when I come to Switzerland in the afternoon there was very windy on the south and it pushed me down to a hole
where was some kind of north fern and it was really turbulent on the ground and I realized that the landing now will be really risky but I had always no other choice and then I was looking for the biggest field and I was spiraling down like a ground spiral because as long I stay in a spiral I have a lot of pressure and I'm more resistant against the gusts and with this ground spiral I was really focused to land safe and when I landed there was not too much wind but after when I packed the wing there was gust about 50 55 maybe and I realized okay this was also a bit of luck to have no problems
but yeah the same was on the second day when I took off in the lee side of the alps in the south of the alps there was strong north wind and I realized that the start is the most difficult part of the flight to fly away and then in the wind it's not the problem but the takeoff will be danger it was not strong wind but turbulent downwind and I really was waiting there for 10 minutes to understand how is the wind what what going on with the gusts and how often they come how fast how turbulent they can be and then I was really waiting for a good moment and then I took off so it means to realize that it's a dangerous situation
and then to check how what can be the problems or the what I can do that it's most safety and it was the goal and finally it was working well and this was a really typical situation where I know that if I can go in the air I really can win a lot because after I was really fast in the front because of this flight and I know that the point is not easy the take off is very risky but if it works for sure it's very efficient and so I try to switch during the day during the race between
relaxing enjoying and really focusing concentrating on the risk
Chrigel when you look back at the five wins I know you're humble this is a pointed question this might be difficult to answer I think there's all the obvious things that we can all point to but if you could narrow it down to three things what are the three things that you most have that the rest of us don't as the days go by it just gets harder and harder to reel you in because of these decisions like at the gas tall and being able to fly in that strong fern it was a really amazing move and you talk about it being a gut move and kind of intuition something that just feels good but is there maybe this is something you've been able to identify when you're doing your coaching as well but what are the pieces of this chess game that you're playing better than the rest of us I
think that my experience of the competition is very helpful and the experience when I was young and when I tried when I ground handled the wing when I was 10 12 I started to ground handle with the wing of my father and I was too young I was 14 15 I started to fly a little and I really play a lot with my wing and I think this feeling of this part of life it was really it helps me to get a good feeling and for sure it's all of this experience together which you need on this adventure
but we discuss a lot about what's the difference and I think I like to gamble so it means to take a decision and to follow this to the end if it's good or not the most important is to follow to do what I really feel is the best and then to take some decisions which are in the best case it's very efficient and in worst case it's really bad but to find the balance between the risk and how good is the chance that it works I think that's
always a gamble and I really like to gamble and most of the athletes they don't want to risk they really want to go safe step by step to Monaco and I think in an adventure it's just not possible to go always with the best decision always with no risk I mean sportive risk not about safety I mean about if it's flyable or if it's nice to be there
it's a sportive risk and I really like to risk if it's possible or not and I also really often think about the best case I don't think about the worst case and to focus on the best case I think it's more important and it gives you the possibilities to do this it means when I launched in all the people they say it's not possible to fly to Baldo because of the valley breeze and in my eyes the best case was to land to top land on the Monte Baldo
and I really was focusing on the best case and finally it was not really possible but I land quite close so I almost get the best case and maybe this also is a big difference to the most of the athletes but I know that when I do coaching I try to explain how it can work or we train how to think about the best case and I know that it's really difficult because it's characteristic of a people and there are many people in the world and some of the people they are always positive and some of them they are negative they always think about the problems and people they think about problems to switch to think about the best case that's not easy yeah
that's maybe not teachable and
I think for me it's a big big luck and I'm very happy to know that I can focus on the best case and not thinking on the worst case when I was young and I won some competitions I was not realizing that I'm able to do this but now when I work with Thomas he can explain me about how it works in the head and he said it's a big advantage I have to think about the best cases I
think that's a great point after the last race I went back and really watched the race again you can play it back they had it up for months it's really interesting yeah and I remember when I fly here at home or when I've done my good flights or in Alaska those kind of places the weight of the decisions is so much less because I don't care if I land in the middle of nowhere I have some stuff in my bag and I can walk forever and it's no big deal but in the ex alps I find that when I watch what you do you're very often going back you're going back to a climb you're making moves that are taking you well off course line that if they don't work you're putting yourself in a worse place but they work because they're the things that make sense but I think many of us really have a hard time doing that in the race because instantly you're thinking okay I've just hiked 6,000 meters today if I bomb out again if this doesn't work I'm putting myself in a tougher place and that's hard what
I think about the sportive risk it means when you take 10 times a day some risk it means to fly back for a better climb or to have a better line then it's very important to have success because all or everything each success makes you stronger in the head it means if you risk 10 times and it works for 9 times then it's more efficient than if you risk just 3 times a day and it's 3 times it's working so it means it's better 90 % of
luck or of working than 100 % but with less trying so it means it's better to always try to have luck to optimize and sometimes to have a bad luck but if less you try if less efficient it is so and it makes always sense to me to try minimum to try and yeah if you don't try for sure it will not work yeah Chrigel
in your coaching what are the what are kind of the three things that come up again and again you know the things that you see that people need to work on whether that be mistakes or lessons and if you can break that down with the beginner pilot the intermediate pilot and the advanced pilot maybe they're the same with all three but what are you constantly going okay here's what we need to work on
I think the most of the pilot they ask how to fly more safe and I think that it's the wrong question how to fly more safe I think you have to think about you like to fly or not or you like to risk or not and all the pilots they fly good this is a person they like to risk they normally they drive car at their drive car fast in the road they go in the mountains they do climbing they do skiing you know they really do they like adventure and pilots they really stay careful and they like to life these pilots they are not free and not good in this sport
and this makes often makes it different but it's very hard to teach and how to fly more safe for sure it's good to have the view of you know the body builder for example they like to go on the podium and show the muscles and that they can win the competition they really have to go into the fitness center to train every single muscle and for the training of the muscle you have to think about the exercise exam and the machine you choose and you have to think about the weight you choose and how many
moves you do you know and a body builder really need a lot of training otherwise he loses in the competition and the paraglider pilot they just like to fly and they don't do any training they do they often they don't like to train ground handling they don't really do safety training or maybe once a year and maybe they do one full stall a life and it means there are many muscles that are not working well but they really like to go on the podium and show the muscles to win the competition and it's just not possible and do a coaching I try to speak about such points it means to
visualize the life the problems and when the pilot can see or find the motivation to train his muscles and often it's a good way or a first step to for example fly more safe or to fly more efficient how
much do you fly a year
personally I do around 300 hours in a year okay so but also 300 or 400 flights it means with the acro flights it's 8 minutes normally and it takes 8 flights 10 flights a day and also some cross country flights from 10 to 12 hours and the average is around 300 hours
you've spoken of you know when you're flying you need to be doing one of three things you're climbing you're gliding or you're planning I think I saw that in an
article that I don't want you to break each one of those down but how do you approach that when you're talking about coaching I mean to me I got a lot out of that because to me it was what that means to me is there should be no time in the flight where you're not really concentrating is it as simple as that or is you know break that down yeah
the idea about this is to focus on the moment it means it starts at the takeoff and pilots they think about landing before the takeoff they are not free to focus on the takeoff so to have a plan where to fly and maybe to land it's important but before the takeoff we have to have your brain free for the takeoff and after the takeoff it's to find the thermals and then it's not the question about how much speed or which line you have to fly it's more the question and where is the place to climb and then to focus on the turn
you have to do to watch out for signs like birds or other wings and if it's working and you can climb maybe in the upper part of the lift you can think about the next glide and when you decide to glide then you don't have to think about termling and you glide to the point where you decided before so it means to switch the mode or the focus I think it's very important and as better you can do this mode as more efficient you can fly for sure it depends on the conditions when it's climbing everywhere it's very easy everybody can do it and if it's not
climbing then it starts to be very tricky and you have to switch in a survival mode to really stay in there but as soon you can climb a little you have to think about transition and then you have to think about how much speed where to fly which line and then to reach this point where you think to climb but to fly more efficient it's also good to have more than one point than one spot to fly on because when the cycle of the thermal is not working on the first spot you immediately can fly to the second or to the third spot and
from outside it looks that you fly straight on the right place but what I really do is to fly from one spot to the next spot where I thought before that it should work and I think there are many things to focus but you have to think about while flying how
much of your flying do you attribute to intuition versus this kind of calculated decision making yeah
I'm specialist I just lead me by my stomach so it means calculation I don't like so much because I'm not good in calculations I don't like so much the facts it means to have weather forecast to know how much wind to know how much wind is on the ground because I say I can't do something else then I stay in the moment so the moment and the facts in the moment are important and so I when I see a storm is coming I don't have to calculate how much wind they come out and I can land so I just feel I can fly more forward or I have to land but it's the most of my decisions from the stomach and the
I don't know that this is going to be something you can answer but year after year I got my first taste for how you do this you won't even remember this day I'm sure but years ago before the 2015 ex alps it was a pretty good day and I was flying and I think you launched after me and we got down to where you typically top up to push into
the
glider
right
the terrain flying straight as an arrow into the let's call it a turn point it wasn't a calm or anything it was just flying into the glacier and then you turned around I say you because later I found out and turned around and flew straight and you know you just did this big triangle and you made in your comments I had to translate it from German but you made in your comments that you didn't turn you know and is this been something you've been working on from the beginning or just you know like I've been told that you you know when you do your triangles like up to
I mean it's just a very different approach but when I look at your for example flying to Monaco year after year you're the only one that does it you're the only one that makes it down there you got all that sea breeze all that headwind you did it again this time you fly straight and I don't think any of us understand how you do that when there's so much wind is that something you can answer or that just intuition and
it's always the situation that makes it possible to fly straight but I think that a friend of mine when he was really young he said okay while turning you fly 50 % in the wrong direction so let's fly straight and it really makes sense and I really um I with with the new wings even with with the three line and now you can fly straight straight straight and and just turn when it's really important but as long you can fly straight it's much more efficient because of no turning and on the terrain it means on the ridge
or on the mountains you always have this warm air which climbs a little and on this little climbs you can fly straight straight straight and while climbing you get the strong lift but after the lift you have thin air up high because it's no warm air from the terrain coming up so it means after turning and you for sure will glide down and when you can follow a ridge you not really climb but you don't lose altitude so it's more efficient to fly straight on a ridge quite low than to turn up and glide down and
are you right on the terrain literally just right off the tree tops
yeah sometimes for sure it's strong lift and then it's also up high but when
you come low you can follow the cliff and often it's better to fly quite slow it means trim speed or just a little of acceleration instead of termaling and fly full speed so when you fly you can calculate when you turn you turn 50 % in the wrong direction it means instead of 60 you fly 30 and when you fly trim speed all the way it's 40 it means it's double speed it's almost 10 more up and it makes it more efficient and more relaxed normally
totally different subject before the last X-Alps you had an accident and you broke one or two ankles one
the right ankle the
right ankle have you had other accidents no
no I was I think I was quite lucky in these 18 years now and I had after 16 I had the first 16 accident
and it was in a flight from with a tandem with my wife so it was after a long hiking flight I was really tired and I had my backpack on with 15 kilo of climbing gear and finally we landed in dash and my mistake was not to have the big field I was trying to land as close to train station as possible and into the houses there was in the evening at six there was no wind but there was some turbulences and finally it feels like falling down from altitude of house so it means 10 12 meters it was always free fall I think it was the same sink rate like with the reserve around six seven meter per second and I even had more hard landings before or after but it was with the back protection on the harness and I was really focused on the hard landing and in this case I was not thinking about the problem I was not thinking about the hard landing and the last two seconds of the flight just went down and so I
think because I was not focused on the problem I broke my leg and sure my wife I hold my wife and we had light equipment so no back protection I realized in the last second I have to stay on my feet and not on my ass because of my back so it was not really a crash but it was too much for my ankle so I broke them and finally I was very lucky it was just my ankle and not the back of us
gliding what can you pass along to us about how you seem to glide so efficiently and again I know this is a hard thing to I've asked many of the pilots on the show about gliding and Russ Ogden had a really cool thing to say about you he said listen most good pilots have all the same knowledge that Chrigel does he just executes it better but I have often find I haven't been flying nearly as long as you have but I often find gliding sometimes you find convergence lines and it's really obvious and it's really nice to get a nice line but other times I find it quite hard to identify if the glider is pulling me into more lift or more sink that
very fine line I find can be hard to identify especially on bar maybe if you're not on bar it's more sensitive but what things can you is that something you talk about with your clients a lot yeah
but I think that's a very difficult part because there is gliding the feeling for the lines and how much speed it's the best and there is climbing in termling and for example in the world championship world cup there are 120 150 pilots and all of them fly the same wing and the same wing load same harness everything is the same but from this 120 pilots there are maybe 5 they are able to climb better and maybe 10 they are able to find the good lines and I know for example that my strength is to fly fast in turbulent conditions but not to climb in weak conditions so to find the good lift the core of a thermal and to climb well I'm really bad in this and I really spoke with these
5 people they really climb well and I was not able to find out what I can change to have a better climb you know there is two aspects one is to know from the other what it's fact and the other part it's to change on myself and finally I just realized that I not the best in climber but I'm really good in high speed finals so I try to focus on my strengths and to accept my weak points and it helps me to stay motivated in the competition for example but for sure when it's a day which weak thermals I know it's not the day to win but they are maybe another day which strong conditions and I know today is my day and I can compete well and
this is the fact but to know about the feeling in glide and in climbing it's very very difficult it means on a good level it means for a student it's more easy to explain how to climb and how to find the good lines but in this level of world cup pilots the level is so similar but still differences if
you could go back to your 50 hour self when you were 10 or 12 you can't even remember it but what would you have done if you could rewind the clock back to that time would you do anything different in would you would you heed any advice that you maybe got but didn't heed or would you train differently would you
definitely I would not flying high performance wings so early because I was from the school wing directly to a high end wing and for sure the step was too big but I was not realizing that it's dangerous and the other part is to not risk too much or not always risk so much but it's very hard because I know that while this experience I did I really learned a lot how to do it so it gives me also a lot of feeling and
know-how and finally I say okay there was always too much risk but it was important to make this experience so it was very hard to teach my brother when I was learning this infinity tumbling he was asking me what he can change what he can do and I want him to push to make a mistake but I also want him to help to be better and it was very difficult to understand the to understand what I can help him going
in the other direction you know you've ticked the world championships you've ticked the acro you've ticked the hardest race on earth what do you see yourself doing in five ten years
I say when I can compete in hike and fly competition I really like to do this but my body has to help me to train to be ready for the races and for sure I like to spread my experience in coaching in tandem flights and also in speeches to companies also I think that I also work with the Swiss League to help other pilots to improve her style and yeah I hope to fly as long as I can because I really like to fly what
I want to be mindful of your time I know it's getting late and you're part of the world I have so many more questions to ask you but maybe we can do a follow-up episode or something but what would you like to impart on the flying community I think there's going to be so many people here that really want a takeaway they're so inspired by what they see you doing they're so kind of mystified by what you're doing what would you say is how can we as pilots emulate what you're doing and become better what are the things that you would suggest that they focused on foremost you mentioned like ground handling and SIV maybe it's is it more the foundational stuff is it just hours
I really think that it's very helpful to think about the personal goals to think about why I do paragliding and then to realize okay this is my goal and there I want to go after you can think about the time you spend for this sport and then maybe to think about optimizing some parts to reach the personal goal and for sure if the goal is very high and maybe needs the goals before the small steps to take some courses to make training specific
training to practice more hours and to reach your goal but I think first of everything it's good to think about the personal goal and to know why you do this so
okay final question if you could do an ex-op style event anywhere in the world but not Switzerland if you could do it anywhere where would you like to do one
that's a good question definitely not in the flat I
think the Indian part or the Himalaya will be very interesting because it's a it's everything it's more extreme it's more more difficult but but it's also more
more an adventure I think the Alps it's very easy because the people living here of the infrastructure and to go out in the nature where you stay really out it will be more hard but also more interesting
well we would I know our tiny little community here Nate Scales who I think you know from the 2007 race and myself and our little community we get really really tall here we fly with oxygen and we would sure love to have you come out here and show us how to fly out it's big air I think you would really enjoy it so maybe one of these days I can talk you into come and visit I think you
so much it's just such an honor and I can't wait to share this with the world thank you so much I'll let you get some sleep bye bye ciao well
I hope you enjoyed that amazing to sit down with not arguably the best pilot in the world so awesome to watch him win it's incredible the amount of talent and the guys he's beating in that race is it's really a feat that he's pulling off again and again and again five wins in a row just truly phenomenal something I don't think we'll ever see again so my takeaway right when I hung up with Chrigel after we closed there have been a few pretty serious accidents here back in the states when I was gone and it made me think about one of the things that I think is a major major misconception when people watch something like the X-Alps it's like god these guys take so much risk and I have to say in the last two
races 2015 and this one certainly there are times when we're flying in what I would call very non recreational type air pretty strong stuff but you can see it in the results there were a couple accidents for sure from flying most of the people folding were because of exhaustion or blisters or something non flying related but I think it's hard for people to understand the amount of training that goes in and what training gives you is a margin and the more you train the more you can handle and Chrigel talks eloquently about that in this podcast about how he eliminates a lot of risk through very serious pointed training that's
not just going out and flying around it's very purposeful he's learning he's adapting and he makes some comparisons to other sports like even backpacking and trekking and just being adventurous that I think really apply to piloting so that's one thing I just wanted to throw out there is if you don't have the training if you don't have the foundations if you don't have those skills then you know you need to apply that to what you can do you need to reel it back and you know fly within the you know the wind levels and the day levels and the time of day and the places you're going that suit your skill level the other thing is time you know when I realized you know what a lot of the ex-alps pilots have including myself is a lot of time to dedicate to this sport when you have a lot of time you can choose the days better obviously in the ex-alps you can't choose the days but
you you know we have the luxury of backing off when it makes sense and not flying on a certain day when it's not epic whereas when you don't have a lot of time let's say you're a hundred hour pilot a year as opposed to you know most of the ex-alps guys are 300 plus easy you know when you don't have the time then there's all this pressure it's Saturday you've only got the weekend it's not as good as you hoped but you know it's Saturday you've only got this one day be cognizant of that be thinking about that before you know you pull the trigger and go into the sky because it only takes once and I think that's what's getting a lot of people is that there's all this extraneous pressure that you know that works its magic on our minds and our minds don't they can't handle it as well so anyway just a
little hands up to remember what we're doing what we're participating in I hate to harp on the safety stuff too much but it just made me really mindful of it you know talking to Chrigel that there's a lot of things we can do to dial it back and to be safe and have long happy fulfilling careers in this sport and you know and not get hurt and that's what this this podcast is all about so as I said at the top of the show this is a listener supported podcast there are various ways you can support us either through Patreon or PayPal directly or you can also share it with your friends or put up a rating on iTunes or Stitcher or Google Play however you listen to the show and I've got some great giveaways for any of you who do that very cool GoPro knee mount that Ben gave us Ben French down in New Zealand and also after this one wrapped up because Chrigel was pretty tired it was getting late in his part of the world I still had a lot of questions that you
had given me through the Facebook I put up a post there that I was going to be talking to Chrigel and ask for questions got some fantastic ones we didn't have the time in this one to go through them but we did a follow-up and I did ask him all those questions so if you want to get that we're going to make that available only to our Patreon supporters so go to patreon.com forward slash cloudbasedmayhem if you're not already a supporter there sign up you can sign up at any different level all we ask for is a buck a show but if you want to sign up for more there's things like trucker hats and t-shirts and books and all kinds of stuff as a thank you for doing that and I'll see you next time and we're going to have that episode up that kind of bonus episode up here in a few days so check that out also wanted to announce that North and Known went live on the 17th of July on Red Bull TV so it's now available for free on the interwebs if you have Red Bull TV at home you can watch it on the big screen it's also available online go to my Facebook page facebook.com forward slash Gavin McClurg or website cloudbasedmayhem.com you can find the links for that or just google it North and Known Alaska Traverse and highly recommend you watch that on the big screen the scenery is pretty insane and really proud of this film it's been doing great at the film festivals winning lots of awards and yeah just a cool very very cool project that took a lot of years to put together so hope you enjoy it and I hope you enjoyed the show and I hope to see you on the next one thanks very much talk to you soon cheers