Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloudbase Mayhem. Got a very special show for you today with a great friend of mine, Antoine Lorenz. Antoine was the first person I did a really, my first kind of big bivy across the Sierras with Nick Greece and Oriol Fernandez and Brad Sander and Eric Reid. Very special time. It was an 18-day trip from the southern end of the Sierras up to the Oregon border. I met Antoine in Bir in India back in 2009 and then again flew with him in 2011 in Bir with the Himalayan Sky Safaris guys. So, John Sylvester and Jim Mallinson and Eddie Colfax. Antoine's been very, very much a mentor to me. He's just one of the most amazing pilots I've ever seen, actually.
I mean, his ground handling skills and WAGA and tandem, he does it all. He's been flying for... I think he started flying at 92, we've here in this episode. So, he's got way more than 20 years under his belt and just has this incredible passion for it. He just came off a kite surfing trip. So, I mean, if a wing, if it's a wing, he flies it. He instructs, he does guided bivy trips across the Alps and the Himalaya. Just a really neat guy. So, in this episode, we talk about how all that progression happened. What kind of accidents he sees and how they can be easily avoided. We talk about kind of some specific techniques for dealing with wind. We talk about ground handling.
We have a lot of laughs. I think you're going to really enjoy this show. So, without further ado, please enjoy this awesome talk with a great friend, Antoine Lorenz.
Antoine, this is so cool. I wish we were catching up in person instead of over Skype at opposite ends of the earth. It's really cool to kind of circle back around to the gentleman who got me into really all of this madness all those years ago. So, welcome to the mayhem and I'm really stoked to have you on the show.
Well, thanks. Now, I don't know if I got you in, but at a point, yeah, we had some adventures together. So, that's good. Nice to be here. Yeah, we
had some great adventures together. Well, before you tell the audience here about your history and how you got into paragliding, I want to hear. I want
to hear a
little bit about kitesurfing. I understand you've gotten the bug quite badly and you've just gotten back from a couple of months tour. What were you doing and where were you?
Yeah, I mean, I'm a lot into kitesurfing. It's obviously an easy sport when you come from paragliding. The flying skills help a lot to be good with your kite. Yeah, I started kite at the beginning of this activity in France and it has a lot of evolution now. Like paragliding a few years ago, I guess now kitesurfing is going in a really specific direction. You have the people who surf the big wave. You have the people who do some freestyles. You have the strapless tendons, like everybody is going like the whole south spirit without any strap on the board. You have these new things with the hydrofoil, which is very interesting.
A new era in kitesurfing. So plenty of, how can I say, of nice enjoyment with kitesurfing. It's a good thing and also you can do that every time it's not flying, which is not bad as well. The
two go very hand in hand, don't they? It was really interesting when we got started with the Best Odyssey. That was back, let's see, in 2006, I guess. In the beginning, everybody was on twin tips. Nobody was on surfboards. And then by the end, in 2010, 2011, I don't think we had anybody. Riding a twin tip ever. It was everybody was riding strapless and riding surfboards. And it was really cool to kind of see the evolution of the sport.
It's getting big. It's getting big, yeah.
Is it growing? So I'm kind of out of touch with it now. We've still got our boat going, but is it, it hasn't really plateaued like paragliding? It
is growing because you can see like a lot of more school arriving. I mean, everywhere in every country is a lot of beaches, a lot of spots, new spots. And they just, yeah, I guess it's a, it's a big growing activities. I don't know where it will stop. It's obviously a little bit more complex to operate because other people are on the beach. So some places we'd have to have, you know, kind of ruling, but yeah, it's going, it's going a lot of kites all around them.
Well, Antoine, let's, let's rewind the clock a little bit with, I'd love to hear about your, your history with, with flying. Uh, we can talk a lot about kite surfing, of course, but I, you know, like you said, that the two go really hand in hand. And I think if you're, you know, if you're skilled at one, the other comes quite easily, but, uh, your skill in the air with a paraglider is, uh, in my opinion, pretty unmatched. And I'd love to just hear about you and I met back in 2009 and beer, and you were doing some really cool bivy stuff, uh, with, with Eddie and Jim Mallinson and John Sylvester, but, um, take me back to the very beginning. How, how'd you get into the sport, uh, and, and how has it been such a huge player in your life?
Well, um, I was, uh, 17, I guess. Uh, I was passionate with climbing, rock climbing, like the, the modern, uh, escalade as we call it. And, um, we were spending a lot of time on the cliff, uh, in the sun, you know, and, and climbing is very technical and intense, musculary and everything. And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and I saw this guy flying over the, the climbing site, you know, evening time sunset when we were leaving, in fact, the, the timing site. And I saw this guy, uh, really hanging around over the cliff gently, you know, in, in the nice light from the sunset. And, and I thought like, well, I must be cool, you know, and really to, to do that after a big timing session. And then that was it, I guess.
Uh, I wanted to try after that and, um, it took a few years, but, uh. I slowly lost, uh, uh, total motivation to climb and it, it, it was all replaced by flying. And, uh, yeah, that's how we start. Give
me a, give me a year.
17. That was in 92, I guess, 92, 93, something like that. So
right back in the, in the very early days. Okay. So, uh, and then what? Gliders
were, gliders were pretty, uh, simple, simple, simply made, you know, compared to now, but it was still not the complete beginning. But I guess my first glider was like a 12 sales, something like that. That was a, a star brand Azure, which was a French brand at this time. And, uh, yeah, I mean, you know, I bought my first glider. I saw an announcement in a newspaper. Uh, this guy was selling, uh, a bunch of gliders and it was mentioned on the announce only for decoration. And, uh, so I guess the, the price was going to be cheap. So I called this guy and I bought my. First glider 300, uh, Franks. So it would be, uh, hardly about 50 or today.
And, um, the guys told me you cannot fly with that. It's only for decoration. And he said that. And I say, yeah, and the first things I don't was into a field. I took my, uh, my climbing harness, uh, managed to, to transform my one point harness into two point to put the riser on my first, my first running down. And first. Glide and, and yeah, that was the, the, the complete beginning.
Okay. And then how did you, uh, so let's, let's skip forward a few years. Uh, you, you get the client, you get the flying bug bed and you, uh, you leave climbing behind. Uh, so how, how did the, how did the kind of progression from flying with a, with a climbing harness to, uh, to real wings, how did that all go? Yeah,
that's an interesting question, you know, cause, uh, I got a story for that. I mean, it's not really a goal. It's good, but, uh, it doesn't matter. I mean, that, that, that's about my first crush cause I was about, uh, let's say hundred flight, it's, it's a good lead usually for, for people and a hundred flight, uh, number, and I was flying with, um, there was a 301 storm from custom sale and I had a very, very tiny harness that was like a training harness. There was absolutely no protection, but I still had a speed bar on it. And, uh. I was in my hometown that was a restitution condition and I kind of left the first time the site, it was late in the evening, the air was gentle and, and there was a nice lift and I just left for my first little cross country and nobody told me how to really use a speed bar.
And I remember crossing a small valley, I was totally standing up on my speed bar. I mean, my harness was up in my back, you know, and I was really standing up on this little wooden bar. And then, uh, obviously by the door wings went a big collapse and I, I, I must have fall, you know, like about hundred, 140 meters and hit the forest under, and a friend was following me and he kind of went down land, run back to me in the mountains, find me hanging on my harness. I was noting a little bit shocked, but I was about one meter over the ground. My, my harness plate was broke. Yeah. And, uh, I was fine. So that was the first big things, you know, the, the problem for me, like the, the firemen came to, to see me cause one, one guy in the valley just call them.
And uh, when the firemen come and make a rescue that they have to mention it in the newspaper. So the next day I got a call from my mom, which leave, you know, under a case away, which say, okay, what can I do for you to help with your progression in power? Because I can read in the newspaper, you know, a bad landing somewhere. And then, uh, she bought me my first, uh, jail harness, which was an American jail, uh, from next, I guess. And that was my first big harness with protection. And I was very happy.
I love it. Your mom, Antoine, I need to buy you harness. What, what do you need?
That was a good story. And so it started a little bit, uh, rough, but I guess this is, this is, this is a good story. This is the way you learn. Uh, obviously it has to don't leave you too much with any, any problem and physical problem. But if it's happened this way, mentally, if you can pass over that, then, uh, then it's always a good learning. And it's, uh, after that, I didn't have anything anymore for the last 20 years. I didn't have any accident. I mean, bad accident after that. So that was the first one, a good one. And, uh, and I will always remember it.
What do you, what do you credit that to? And I mean, that's amazing. So, you know, 20 years without a bad accident, um, you know, I've, I've seen, I've seen you fly. You are a Wagga master, uh, for those of you listening, uh, in North America, it don't, you know, Wagga is a very European term, but basically, you know, just playing and, and the, and the dunes and the beach and very low and, you know, very playful flying, I guess I would call it, but ground free style close
to the, close to the ground. Yeah. Yeah.
Um, what do you, what do you credit that huge period of time and thousands of hours without an accident?
Uh, I would say first, the, the, the, like you say, the, the thousands of hours, I mean, it's, uh, yeah, let's say an average of two, 300 hours every year, uh, for this last 20 years for me and, um, a lot of tandem, but a lot of playing around and always having fun. Um, fortunately the place where I fly is, it's a good place. It's a good place with strong condition. Often we got some strong wind and I grew up with this strong wind. That's what our, that's why I also do a kitesurfing, um, and then for sure bad to practice in strong wind all the time. And then after a while you get good at it. Uh, it always goes with a few slap on the way. When I say bad accident, no bad accident, but a lot of slap will always bring you back in the right way.
You know what I mean? I don't think it's possible to make a total progression without having any, uh, any problem at the point. It's just about when it's happened, you just want to minimize the maximum and yeah, to, to came back on it really fast mentally. That's, that's the key. But in, you know, in my progression at a point, um, after this first accident, let's say the first one I talked to before, uh, it took me a good year. Yeah. It took me a good year to come back, uh, to proper flying like I, I really, I remember really spending a lot of time behind the takeoff. Uh, I mean, we got a really round and soapy, nice grassy takeoff and we can play it a bit ground and link behind.
And I spent a lot of time there with strong wind just to get confidence with my glider and I, and I didn't allow myself to take off for nearly one year. I was just thinking, okay, well once you manage to, to walk till the edge with your glider, with the strong wind. Then, then you'll have the level to take off if you can pass already the little bank and then turn these trees on the right and then pass this bush by the left. And you know, this, this kind of little exercise, I've done a lot to build up my confidence. And after that I was kind of okay.
You've been an instructor now for a long time. Um, and I think one of the, one of the big misconceptions with people that are just getting into the sport is with ground handling is ground handling is bringing the wing up and getting off the hill. Yeah. So how do you, how do you approach, you know, which is not ground handling, that's just flat. Let's just launching. Um, how do you, how do you instill a desire in, in your students to really take on this really critical aspect of the sport?
Uh, yeah, that it's a, it's a, it's a good point. Like it's very hard in a, in a normal way to in the school when people are paying their course, when, you know, when they, when they really booked in, in a course to, to start, uh, to study, I think one is the most important. a lot of hours running a link, everybody wants to fly fast, everybody want to, to have this sensation of fly. I guess two demonstrations. Sometimes I use food and then you can, people, people have to see the magic, uh, the magic size side of it. You know, it's absolutely fantastic for sure. You need to have a proper place to do it. Yeah. I would say. Yeah. Um, I. part of the places in the mountains they just allow you to take off to leave the ground and and go out and it's not so often that you find places where the terrain is really soft and inviting you to touch your feedback you know and and just play with it and and and i would i would say it's the most important thing you have to be in osmos with the terrain it has to be nice and easy condition have to be properly perfect for this angle of terrain and then you can play and then it's really uh it's a lot of pleasure anton
we're gonna we're gonna talk about bivy flying because my my first uh huge bivy i was was with you in the sierra is a very very special trip um but before we get to that how how did you how did you go from those you know those early days you take this year of not flying you learn how to ground handle how did you turn it into really your living uh where what what was the what was the stretch there because i know for many many years now you know paragliding is is one of the main ways that you uh you survive
yeah i mean i don't know if i had as a choice but you know you know what you can you can i mean you do what you can do in a way um it's it's uh it's funny but uh i really loved it from the beginning you know it's uh it's flying it's incredible um happily uh i grew up not far from small tourist area where uh the the season walk where the the big activities like where i'm living is one of the first uh climbing spot in in the hall of friends and so you have a lot of outdoorsy people and uh yeah i mean very fast we could uh i mean i've i've i've i've i've i've i've i've i've i've i've i've i've i've i've i've i went through few schools before setting setting up my own school but from the beginning it was about instructing and guiding and uh then starting some tour uh in a foreign country then the tandem season which is intense and short where i live but which is really good because it's every day a little competition for all of us here um and then slowly slowly uh some some
big things has to be my travels in india uh where the first time i have not been there to fly in a way and uh i i discover totally by hazard um i arrive in this place the name is uh panjgani which is in in the western ghats of uh of india a little bit south of mumbai and it was a fantastic fly flying place and the next year i came back with my glider and uh and and yeah we start this indian flying adventure a few years later we arrive in b also by hazard and there was only let's say 10 15 pilots there at least for four season at the complete beginning we were there and there was only 10 15 pilot that was really the beginning and i mean you have been there you know it's uh it's a simply magic the environment over there you can only uh begin to be or to to to think a little bv you know attitude because it's it's really the terrain is really inviting the culture of the the people are really inviting you just want to top lane and we're and everywhere on every top of montana and have a cup of tea with the locals you know that's what you want to do
yeah it's magic is that is that where you first did your first bv's or were you doing them already in france uh
no that that's that's in india where uh we're really uh this inspiration to to okay let's let's live in india and we're really uh we're really uh we're really uh we're really uh we're really uh we're really uh we're really uh we're really uh we're really uh we're really live this side and and and just follow this range you know and and just go with it just go with the terrain as long as we can that's really himalaya who brought this idea to me uh in france i didn't talk to that because we know the harps and uh more for a ski destination okay it's flying everywhere now it's i mean it's really really popular but uh it was i don't know yeah it was not so easy to how can i say to bv and to find yourself in the wild like very fast in in himalaya you will you will be landing and and there will be no road access nothing so you'll be directly with the locals in the country you know so the
the film that you guys made uh with eric reed and your your big bitty from and and help me out did you you started in dharamsala is that correct and you went through to yeah
we we started in b we went to dharamsala to make the point and then uh we went for the next uh 44 days all together till uh till the border of sikkim we stopped a little bit before the border of sikkim we couldn't reach sikkim and sikkim is uh the other side the other side of nepal and so you have the the indian part the the west nepali part the eastern part and then sikkim uh but uh we couldn't finish the objective the objective was to reach india again so sikkim is a is a state from india and we wanted to to reach this point i guess it was a 1600 600 kilometer mark or something like that but we don't want three one four something like that between the two don't remember exactly 46 days 44 we had a we had a big break in pokhara unfortunately because the the weather where was very stable and uh and we just spent one week uh eating cake
it was it was not really part anymore of the bv but the actual bv was uh yeah yeah the 44 days or two days or 30 34 days of in fact in the mountains totally yeah no no i i i i think i have not been uh under uh 2005 or 3000 meter for for more than 20 25 days something like that i stay over that and a lot of red sales you know that's good um
so one of the questions we get a lot from from uh from the bv is that how do you manage to manage to manage to manage to manage to uh folks that listen to the podcast is you know i hear you guys talking so much about vol biv and they you know they've seen uh they've seen john sylvester's Moyes or they've seen the rocky's traverse or the himalayan odyssey the one you guys did and and they're inspired where where would you send people and and what skills would they need to have i know you you've been leading these kind of short bv trips in the alps the last few years so what what what would you recommend because really for me i didn't even know what it was until i came to to beer the first time and and john sylvester and i did a little you know overnight bb back to manali and came back and it was just just blew my mind and that's what set me off on all this uh this madness but where how would you uh would you send them to beer would you send them to the alps uh what would you recommend uh
it's it's a hard question i mean there are so many places where you can do this um i mean it's it's all about when i think to the the beer situation it's all about uh going somewhere where you cannot access by by uh other way yeah maybe walking but no other way than than than flying and uh the magic in beer is you will be you can be only 15 kilometers behind the main ridge but you can be totally lost at four thousand uh top landed on a grassy uh semi hit and and uh having a conversation with the locals you know and been totally out of the world and that that i guess that's the the really magic part of it it's uh it's fantastic after where to go uh it's hard to say himalaya is great because as we said earlier it's not only about uh flying and be walking you will meet people you will you will meet the the locals all around and it's a it's a fantastic immersion in the in the culture um
the harps you will not meet so much uh real locals but uh you have facilities you can you can drive up the next day to the to the next takeoff uh it's pretty much organized so it's a it's a different aspect of of uh bv flying in a way you know it's it's it's all bv but uh it's it's there is so many different branches to this uh sport you know you can do it wild on your own uh only with self-supported equipment you can do it uh like we don't for the himalaya as a team so one of the objective was to stay together a maximum a little bit like we don't together in the in u.s uh we wanted to be more in u.s because there was some bears and mountain irons problems so we wanted to stay together even more but you know i mean every every i would say every range
you have to adapt your gear and you have to adapt your uh your bv attitude if i can say something like that
sure well what what about skill level you know when you when you've done these trips uh you know when i think about guiding uh a bv trip that makes me pretty nervous but you and eddie and john you guys have all kind of mastered this craft in a sense what do you what level of pilot are you are you willing to accept and and uh i guess is there a level that's just okay this isn't gonna work
um we might change or i might change my decision you know to go somewhere or somewhere else in function of what i can see in the sky on one of the pilot if i feel suddenly a huge amount of i mean the problem often happen when you try to top land i guess it's the number one skill you need to be able uh to to top land properly safely in kind of any type of condition and to be perfect it would be in any type of terrain but uh by flying a certain techniques or certain way in in the bv you can avoid some problem about top landing which is having time to choose one which is uh really spend a bit of time before top landing and analyzing the the hair mass and see how it goes and maybe wait for a good cycle to come in uh so if you're going to be able to do that then you're going to have to have a bit of time it's different but for sure the first kid will be top landing so it's not about i mean everybody is able very very fast to to do some distance especially in all these big ranges it's uh pretty easy usually if you use some some normal route it's it's happening uh well uh the only thing is okay we decide to stop at a point and then everybody has to be able to to plan safe
you don't want to break your legs uh on the summit at 3000 or 2005 somewhere that would be a little bit uh complicated so that would be a skill number one for me
on the on the sierra trip uh the very first day we saw how it could go bad uh with with brad's very unfortunate accident but also in some ways quite fortunate uh you know he went in very hard there and crashed and yeah it did quite a bit of damage and then Then his wing relaunched and he was able to fly down to a soccer field to a waiting ambulance. For me, it was crazy, right? Oh, my God. But for me, it was really, you know, that was kind of my first, you know, I had done this little bivy with John and some other, you know, small trips. But that was my first big one. And that was very instructive for me because you and Nick were able to top land up there, which was really dicey. It was a tough spot. I
think I remember that Nick broke his harnesses top landing also in the big rocks. I guess, you know, the place was not good in a way. The place was wrong, obviously.
And it's all about that. It's all about having time to choose the right place. I guess I remember this time we had a little bit of, we were not sure about the weather forecast, no? It was very bad information. We had some bad information and we have been totally influenced by it because we didn't feel that in the sky. And I remember once we top landed with Nick Greece, a little bit, one hour later, we saw two gliders passed over our head and it was still flying. So it's funny. It's never, it's never, how can I say? It's an accident. It's always happening after a cascade of incidents, you know? You always got like one bad information, a bit of stress probably because we were on our first.
Another piece of stress because this is the rocky and this part is really full of rocks. I mean, we were used to Himalaya grassy slope and you know, a ridge, but there was not, that was not the case in this part of the world. And a bit of all over excitement and top landing in a place which is wrong. So all that leads to a little incident and happily this time it happened. And Brad was only a month. I'm really scared, I guess, but not, not much, uh, physically. Right. Right.
How have you maintained, you said earlier in the show, you, you know, you you're flying 200, 300 hours a year for the last 20 years. That's a lot of hours. Uh, how have you maintained, and I can still hear your passion and excitement for the sport and your voice, you know, after all these years, you love it. I know you do. I know it. It's awesome. But how, how have you maintained that passion and that love? Because I. A lot. A lot of the, the, the guests, uh, we've had on the show, you know, their, their progression is often quite steep. Uh, you know, it starts like everybody, there's the magic of stepping off a mountain and then they, they build skill and they start putting it together and they, you know, Nick calls it cracking the code and you start flying bigger distances.
And I think the trap that many people fall into is, and, and one I've been in myself is you start chasing distance or records, or then you get into. Into competitions and, and, uh, you know, if you're not on the podium, it's, you know, it's, uh, it sucks and you get frustrated. And I, I think people go through this kind of arc and then, uh, they either, either plateau in their own ability and, and get maybe bored or less excited about the sport or, uh, you know, they get hurt or they get scared. How have you kind of maintained this, this, uh, you know. You've, you've, you've had this incredible arc as well, but then you've maintained it. Yeah. How have you done that?
Yeah, that's a, that's a good question. Uh, I mean, two times in, in, in my progression, I had some, uh, some slow motion, uh, you know, where, where I kind of lose a little bit of passion and I'm, I'm, I'm very glad. Like we, I was able to stop a bit and analyze and I was like, okay, I'm, I'm doing too much of this and, uh, I should stop. And I remember when. When, uh, a few years after we discovered, uh, India, in a way, um, the, the, the Indian site and all, I was doing a lot of tandems there. Um, there was the site, a lot of potential tourism from Mumbai and outside. And then we started this tandem business, uh, with some, um, Indian pilots. We were locals from there, you know, and, and that was great for me because there was also a moment I could go into their cultures.
Walking with these guys was like, I understand more. And. And we've done a lot of tandem and, uh, for two months in a winter. And this time I came back to France and I had, again, my tandem season starting and I was like maybe more than four, 400, 500 tandems in the whole year. And I was too much. And, uh, I didn't want to fly at all anymore. Not even in tandem, not even in, in solo, uh, I reached a point where that's too much. And this is hard because it's happening to, to all of us, uh, whether it's in competition. Well, like you said, like if you, if you don't make raises or whatever, or if you chase record and it's hard and it's happened to all of us, I guess it's a sport now, which got like kinds of so many branches that you can, uh, you can change for a while and do something different, uh, right now, for example, I, I really love to, to leave from my house and just, uh, jump in the back forest and climb up to take off, uh, whether it's, it's good or not, just, it's mostly fun.
For the walk, you know, and, and I get the light lighter with me and I just try to find some new places to take off. And I just tried to fly back to my place without any pretension, without going for distance, without just, just to make an exercise where you can do a bit of paramotoring. You can do a lot of things which are linked to flying, uh, who can, who can help you to not lose the patient. But, uh, one of the big things for me is like the tandem, you know, it can, it can be. People might talk like, okay, it's boring to do that every day. But the funny things with tandem is, uh, in my place, at least we, we fly every hours of the day and, uh, it's crazy. You know, you can really analyze the whole air mass during a whole days.
You can feel every changement hours by hours, which was, it was not there the last flight and it'll be different the next one. And it's, it's a, it's a, it's a real game. And sometimes you're able to bring this pleasure. To, uh, to your customer, to your passenger. And that's fantastic. When you can see a smile and like, or a few years later, people are coming back and they say, oh, I flew with you five, four, five, four, four, five years ago. So, and, uh, that was fantastic. I'm coming back. I bring my whole family now and, uh, you know, this kind of thing. So yeah, it can be hard. It can be hard. I guess it's about slowing down a little bit. Sometimes, um, refocus your practice. Uh, or, or try something different just to come back later on it.
What have you, when you, in your years and years of instruction and obviously all the flying you've done, uh, not to talk about the dark side, but I think this is always instructive. Uh, I'm sure you've seen a lot of accidents. I know you've seen a lot of accidents. Are there some, are there some, uh, telltales before they happen that you think, God, that could have, that could have been so easily preventable. You know, what, what do you, what do you try? Try to instill in your students to, uh, help them kind of navigate that potential minefield, you know, as they start getting better and they get, uh, maybe they get over their a hundred flights, they start getting some hours, they start getting an ego, maybe about it, or maybe some confidence, which can be dangerous. Uh, what, how do you, how do you help them through that period?
Yeah. In, in, in the accident curve, uh, there is a big point around a hundred flight or a hundred hours of flight. You know, that, that's this point where someone is starting to fly, starting to understand the lift and it's, it's, it's kind of, he already done his first cross country, but that's the moment he's going to push, uh, that, that's, uh, an important limit and we always, uh, notice some accident at, at this point.
Uh, I'm not a pushy instructor. I know I'm, I'm, I'm mostly, uh, try to hold back a little bit. I'm, I'm, I'm try, I try to be really cautious. With, uh, my students and, um, it's, uh, how can I say, you, you need to be a good psycholog, like you need to be able to see very fast if, uh, this pilot is, uh, how can I say a burn head, you know, it'll just go for it without too much thinking or, or contrary of that, you, you can, you can push him up cause he's really, um, uh, how can I say, he's really, uh, safe in his vision and in his decision. And then he, he, he might be pushed and there'll be fantastic. It's, it's really hard to judge that.
I always need a few days to, uh, to be able to, to see what I can do with people for sure. When, when the all, uh, magical conditions are, are there, you know, uh, you can see some fantastic progression. Uh, I had a student this year in Himalaya and, and, um, he was already doing some cross country, but not much. And, and, uh. Um, and we manage, I had only one week with them, so it was pretty short and intense. And, uh, I manage at the end of the day to make, uh, at the end of the course, sorry, to make a little incursion into the back. You know, the, the back in, in beer is a, is a big, uh, mind step. And it's also a big elevation step, but it's also a big mind step for, for most of the people.
And I managed to, to bring this guy a little bit inside for one hour, made a climb. Then came back, you know, and that was incredible. The joy they had and, uh, and that was risky, but I kind of stuck with this guy, you know, from the whole week, really, really close to them. And, um, and build up this confidence. Like I say, okay, let's go. You got a good height. You got a good height. You follow me. We go boom. And, uh, without hesitation, they followed. And then we climb up, uh, already gave them a limitation of height. Like I say, once you reach four or 4,002. Then, you know, if you're not comfortable, you, you can glide back. So, um, that's an important point. You always have to give an objectives and, uh, already have in mind the upper part of it or the lower part of it.
Like if you see the guys struggling with the first objective, then you need to come down on, on, on a lower objective. And contrary, if he's good, then you can jump up, you know, on the next one.
I think, I think, um, this is just reminding me. I had the hugest smile on my face when you were talking about that, because I think part of our culture and the States and Canada is that we don't, we don't do, we don't do guided trips, you know, it's, it's just not part, you know, like mountain guiding is just much, much bigger in Europe. Uh, it's just a very natural thing you do. You go to a new area and you get a mountain guide and, uh, and, and it just radically increases your safety, but also their knowledge is, it just helps you navigate the mountains. And I think what you and, and, and. You know, the Himalayan sky safari team have tapped into, and there are many others, you know, uh, Toby Colombs doing it with fashion paragliding and many others, but there's, uh, I want to encourage our listeners to, especially if you're, if you're starting out, that it's just an amazing way to one get, well, just get very quality time.
Like when you go to beer for the first time, uh, following you guys around in that terrain was, that's not how we fly here. It's just crazy where you can stuff a glider. And the Himalayas, cause there isn't the wind factor typically. And, uh, it's just, it's, it's really magical. And to have that kind of handle bar, uh, right next to you, guiding you along or pulling you out of a tough place. Uh, you, you really learn a lot. I think that's a, it's a very, it must be very stressful for you as a, as an instructor, as a guide, but it's, I hope this guy gets out of here, but, but it's, uh, it's, it's, it's, I want to, yeah. I want to encourage our, our. Our listeners to do that because it's kind of like going to a competition. It's compressed learning, you know, you learn a lot in a very short period of time.
Don't you?
Yeah, it is. It is, uh, it's a, it's a, it's a special, it's a special course, uh, that we propose above both them. And I'm a bit, uh, doing, uh, some, my own course now, but I'm working sometime with, with John and Eddie still. And, um, yeah, uh, it's, uh, I guess one of. The key is, uh, we keep a low, uh, ratio, like, uh, we often use, uh, one guide for maximum three pilots. That's what I do in my, uh, Alpine adventure every year. Um, if I have six customers, then I will take two, two, two guys. And, and I already tried to have, uh, one guide for, for three customer, just cause, uh, then you, you, you are available, you know, and you're able to, to, to spiral down and go to pick someone and, and, and.
Yeah. Get back to the group. And that's easy, but more than that, it's, it's, it's really difficult if you want to do a good job, I guess, uh, that would be one, one big things, but yeah, it is, uh, it is a different approach and it's also close of the, uh, the real flying, you know, like birds just, uh, travel with it. And this is transforming this, this, uh, sport into a real lifestyle. Like you're traveling with this machine and, and this machine is, uh, you know. Bringing you from this area to this area and, and that, that's your, that's a full travel. So yeah, it's a special way to fly, but it's, it's fantastic. It
is fantastic.
I'm going soon for an Alpine adventure this year. We, we do a hub the way from Nice to Chamonix and we'll do a down the way this time, which is a first from Interlaken to Nice. So we will be a little bit ahead of you guys in the X-Alp. Good. You can show me the way you can, you can send me weather. The reports
from a, from a head. That'd be fantastic. Um, and we'll, we'll put that, uh, we'll put all those links to your trips in the show notes. And I'll ask you here at the end, how people can get ahold of you and stuff. But before we go there, because I, I want to encourage people to take that trip. It's, I know it is awesome. I've had friends that have done it and it's just an incredible way to learn and an incredible way to see the Alps and the Alps. Let's face it are complicated. You know, they're, they're not, uh, they're not a totally simple place to go. Especially if you haven't flown there much. So to do it with somebody like you as a real, as a very special treat, you talked about tandems, uh, I'm not a tandem pilot. Uh, it's kind of an obvious thing to do. You learn how to fly, you get into it and suddenly, oh, well, you know, you can fly tandems and make some money, but I hear a lot that it's, it often doesn't help your solo flying.
What, what's your opinion on that?
Um, to tell the truth at the end of my tandem season. Okay. When I pick back my solo glider, uh, I need a good, I need a good three, four days to get back on, on proper flying. Yeah, for sure. It's just, we were so used to this, um, handling, uh, resistance, you know, which is not the same. Uh, so to go from one to the other, I always take a few days to adapt, uh, without hesitation to, to say that it doesn't help. I, I don't, I don't agree in a way. Cause, um, it, it, it brings. The hours anyway, for me, uh, in the summer, I do a lot of tandems, but this, this is how I make my living. So I'm a bit obliged to do that. If I could cause the help every week, I would probably do it, but it's a more complex organization, but the tandem is also the simple and nice.
And, um, it is, you still fly, you know, in the Hermas most part of the time in, in our site here, it's pretty strong in the afternoon. and solo glider doesn't fly simply and you will only see tandem in the sky not not because only the wind can only be because conditions are a bit stronger and then it's only instructor kind of flying with the tandems and uh but it's a good game for us uh all the pilots here we're about 20 tandem pilot in the in the summer and it's a big competition you know you have uh it's our local competition every day you have this day where it's massively stable and you're with your customer everybody is looking at each other at the takeoff and who is the one which is going to go first and might take a risk to find the lift uh if you don't find it then you cannot sell your tandem properly so you got this kind of days you got the days where where it's it's fantastically unstable and and and within a 35 minute flight you can reach up cloud base and cross the entire valley and then come back instead of scratching the cliff you know under the takeoff or so it's it's still i mean i i'm still exciting excited sorry um about my my season in tandem it's it's good fun uh i've i'm lucky to work with a fantastic team where we are four instructors work together and it's it's a really good team we have a lot of love in the sky in the van uh after the work all the time it's it's it's good vibes really i'm really happy to to still have this job you know um
what part of flying are you most excited about these days you know you've had this incredibly long career it sounds like you've got a pretty equal passion for all aspects of it but are there are there uh are there certain times of the year you get really excited
yeah i guess every year i'm i'm going to this uh emirate and part that we talked about before in october november and this is always a big excitement for sure i would say when spring is coming i'm going to be a big excitement for sure i'm going to be a big excitement for sure uh right now in france it's it's winter time and uh spring is starting we already some got got some good condition you know and then yeah everybody's excited everybody has not uh everyone has not fly during the winter and uh everybody everybody is going up to take off even if the condition has are not that fantastic so that's an exciting part and yeah waga also the june the june the or any place you find so i'm going to be a big excitement for sure i'm going to be a big excitement for sure so i'm going to be a big excitement for sure i'm going to be a big excitement for sure sand units uh at something fantastic just to play around the problem of the the flying is usually when it's a little bit like diving once you take off uh you cannot stop you cannot stop and and and have a drink i mean you can have a drink but you cannot stop you know and like in a tennis game or you can make a break and and take your game five minutes later uh once you you take off and you're on you're on your distance or whatever you do you you cannot uh you can't stop the whole things with wagas and this kind of things uh even with bv you you you can fly and then you can top land and have a break and and go again and and come back and think to some things and okay i'm going this way and try this time you know it's it's it's a different uh different part of the sport i love it for that you you're not totally stuck in your harness you can you can i mean it happens for me at the beginning i didn't add this um the the camera oh you call that the to make pp
yeah the catheter well
i don't know the name exactly the pp tube let's say i was not really friendly with the pp tube at the beginning and uh in beer i was uh most of most part of the time i was pirating down a little bit and because i saw a nice uh sloppy grassy ridge you know with good wind and up i was just top landing having a pee and then take off again and get back to fly you know which was a pretty a pretty good way to do but now with the pp tube it's a bit more easy um
answer on some some specific uh questions uh just technique kind of stuff that these are questions that uh people have been asking uh recently uh you guys uh i know one of the one of the more common causes of problems or accidents in in himalaya in the himalaya uh is when people land in a bit of wind and they have the kind of terrorist i don't know what you call those like the terrorist rice fields you know and they they get blown back into uh one of the you know one of the steps the step ups um how do you what how do you teach people to land in in strong wind what's the what's the technique there because there's uh that's a that's a common one we get you get people asking hey what do i do if i get
in a venturi and i get blown over the back and what do i do if i come into land and and it's blowing really hard how do i you know how do i safely uh depower the wing and not get dragged
okay uh i guess there is many many situations in your questions uh i would say there is probably a solution to each situation but um let's talk about first the the top landing uh top landing
um to to top land and if there is a bit of wind um it's it's tragic strategically uh if there is no wind you will you will come uh like a normal approach like you'll come from the back lightly and build up a s shape or a shape pattern to to reach your uh small final uh head of the wind and and and to to touch your your aim mark um more the wind will increase the this whole approach will shift uh the top of the ridge and then slowly in front and then even if the wind is stronger even down the slope you know you know what i mean like uh the the other side would be the wind is very strong every time you you arrive in front of the ridge you're climbing too high straight so the way to top land and
stay safe a maximum would be to make your approach by under so you will lose some height and you will be able to climb higher and higher right come very low and then make your s h shape curve pattern by under the your aim spot and climb slowly only once you reach the the altitude limit then the altitude the level of your aim spot you you throw yourself towards this this spot again it's it has to be um how can I say uh the right place to do it like uh the most elementality things would be to choose a good place and sometimes we we push top land in a place which is not good uh so if you can be far from obstacles if you can have a slope which is not too sharp um you will always aim at the top of the slope you know where there is a compression of wind because you don't want to have any any more um uh lift so you you will position yourself very tightly between the lift and between the hair which is
uh how can I say uh lying down behind the behind the ridge so to be able to position yourself well you need time that's the first thing you will need to have a few different passage close to the Ridge to analyze to see the strength of the wind the strength of the breeze see if you have to come lower or you know and it's all about time often accident happened when you want to rush it all the accident I saw with top landing was was People don't want to be in the sky anymore. They just want to be on the ground like all these other guys on the side. And they throw themselves always a little bit strong to the ridge. And it doesn't do it well. You just need to stay close. I always talk about this basketball.
I don't know where you put the ball in the basketball. What do you call that? The basketball hoop. The hoop. I always talk about this basketball hoop, which is your entrance. You need to pass through this basketball hoop to reach your aim point on the ground. And you are first to position your basketball hoop on the right size, on the right place in function of the wind, the angle, everything. Once you got it, then you need to pass through that. So you build your approach to come close to the basketball. And normally when everything is fine, after that, you just glide and you touch. The thing is you. You need constant adaptation and you also need to, like I say, to my student always wait the cycle.
Like wait, wait, like the natural, just open the doors. You know, many times you pass, you're in the right position. Your basketball hoop is right in front of you, but it's really bumpy and suddenly leafy or sinking too much or, okay, this is not the right time. You just turn out, go again for a turn, a lift, a spiral down again, whatever. And then you come back in 10 minutes. And then you try again, and it's just about being passionate, trial ways, the same structure. And once the, I would say the hair mask, the natural school, the door, the windows is open and then you pass and everything is fine. And usually it's, it's without any trouble and just touch like a, like a butterfly.
That's like a butterfly
that's, that's for the, that's for the top landing. But, you know, then, then there is all the, the venturi and blown back. And, uh, I would say there is, there is a lot to say to every situation. Um,
what about the, what about landing in a, in a, like a venturi, like in the Alps, you get in a really bad situation with a lot of, with a lot of, uh, Valley wind, uh, are there, are there some, uh, are there some, uh, advice you can give there to people that find themselves in that position? Yeah,
it happened, it happened to us on the last Alpine adventure. We, we land, um, close to, um, in the Brianson Valley. I don't know if you know this valley, which is linking to it. I
know it well.
There is one place, uh, you must have passed over that. Uh, it's, it's a really narrow, uh, venturi at the bottom of the valley. And, uh, and that's really, I mean, it's obvious. I would say the first mistake is you have to analyze from the sky where it can be a venturi and where the, the, the valley breeze will be stronger. Uh, that would be the first things to do. Like, and for sure you avoid that. I remember one time in the Sion Valley that you must also know, uh, the, we could see, we could already spot the wind in the Sion Valley, which was so strong. Uh, we were pretty high in our forward speed where we're very, very low. So we decided to top land in high altitude, which is most part of the time, a good solution, uh, some nice field in, in high altitude, but if you're stuck into the breeze, uh, it's pretty hard, uh, if you're lucky, you, you're stuck, uh, ahead of a clear point behind, and then you, you have to stay, uh, front of the wind, look at your, uh, aiming point behind you and build again your approach, you know, uh, but looking at behind and flying back.
It's pretty hard. Uh, very,
very scary. Not, I think the, uh, the, the best advice there is like you said, just avoid it to, to begin with. I, I, I have often found that I think what people get really get in trouble with is if, if you are in that situation, you really have to be thinking, uh, fast, you know, if you panic or you, because it might be quite a bit of time before you're on the ground, there's still, you know, there's still quite a bit of lift. Every little thing that's in. The way is going to be lift. So you, you have to not be afraid to turn and run. And because you can cover a lot of ground and go downwind, uh, and get to a much better place, you know, even if you only have a few hundred feet, you know, you can really cover, you know, if you're, if you're just trying so hard to get into a tiny little place with a bunch of trees behind it, it's probably not going to work.
If you can fly downwind to a better place, you know, avoiding things like high tension, power lines and stuff. Oh
yeah, for sure. Yeah. And I was going to add, you know, like we, we've got a sentence, which, which I find funny. We always say like vegeta is your friend. So if you know what it means, you better choose, uh, if you, if you don't have any more option to land and, uh, roads and lines and trees and whatever, I mean, always choose trees. That would be the first things to do. You will probably destroy your glider, but you have a chance. Um, and then the last time it happened to me. Um, I had kind of a lot of amount of stress who come suddenly you're like, Whoa, I need really to, and my first idea is always, okay, get your legs warm, you know? And I'm, I'm standing out of my harness and just like pumping with the legs just to put the blood in it and get really warm muscles.
Cause I'm like, okay, maybe this, why am I, I might be dragged on the ground a little bit. So I really need to be ready for that. And I spent the last two, three minutes before touching the ground, really warming up, warming up to be ready to any eventuality. All right. And just when you, when, when you say that, I mean, I remember two, three, two, three times like that one time in the Himalaya and, uh, and, and few other times in the house where I had this huge, like, okay, let's, let's warm up really quick legs. Let's be ready for, for a bit of, you know, and, and, and that was fine. But like you say, you touch, then you need to put your glider on the ground. You need to be ready to, to be dragged to, to all ball, like we say, and, and, and, and stop the flight. But it sounds like the most important is to not make the mistake.
Like you have to think ahead of that before it happens.
Yeah. I mean, and typically in, in, in Europe, when the Valley winds are very strong, you know, in July and August, the, the, the trick there is just to stay high, you know, and, and, uh, if you're not going to make a crossing top land and wait for, wait for a better moment.
Yeah. I mean, and you can, you can even top land, uh, often more you go in the evening and more the breeze. The breeze is strong, but it's, uh, it's, it's always the same, you know, often accidents happen because even on, on, I'm in the flatlands here in, in South of France and, uh, still we have a accident coming. Like the guy didn't want to walk 200 meters and he just, he just wanted to reach the little field close to the road. And, but this field was a little bit tricky and there was a line and this and that. And often it's, it's just a little, you know, a little, um, laziness. It makes us, uh, having such stupid accident sometimes, you know, I mean, it's priority has to be, has to be a safety.
So you, cause it's, it's so easy in a flight, you know, you're in a two hours flight, but just in two minutes, just at the end of the flight, but then you, uh, you have a little things and then it's, it's the next two months are not. I have to, I
have to admit to my own quite embarrassing moment like that in the ex-Alps. The last, uh, the last night I was trying to catch Ferdy, you know, he had flown over me that day because I thought it was unflyable and I was just sitting, I'd gotten a really bad situation and exactly where you're talking about South of Brienzone and the, that ski area, I think it's bars or vows or something and got caught in that, uh, lee side of that terrible, uh, valley wind and really scary. And anyway, ran up the hill on the other side and took off and had this beautiful evening flight, uh, that 60 K, uh, down towards, uh. Down towards Monaco. I, uh, now, now it, or I can't remember the name of, there's a little town, a very narrow little, uh, you know, Canyon that goes all the way out to the coast.
Um, and, uh, and it, but the, you have to land by 9 PM, you know, so at 8 45 PM, I was at 3000 high and beautiful and the sun is setting. It's just gorgeous, but you have to be on the ground by nine or you get penalized. And, uh, so I've just full bar and beautiful and just gorgeous air. And, and, uh, and I'm imagining in my head that I'm flying over 30 and, and, uh, and as I got down towards the ground, you know, eight 58, I've got two minutes and I've got this huge field, massive, beautiful, fantastic field that all I have to do is turn into, there wasn't even really much wind. I just have to turn and land. And, but there's this little tiny postage stamp, you know, 200 meters down the road. It was just a little tiny bit. I mean, literally 200 meters closer to, to Monaco.
So of course I go for that. Uh, and you know, I am an X ops pilot, I won't screw this up and, you know, I have to do this really wippy spiral into just, you know, just to make it between the house and the fence and the road and, and, uh, just exploded my harness. You know, I had a very lightweight, you know, X ops, a pair of harness just exploded it. My last flight, you know, you're so stupid. I was fine, thankfully, but you know, just silly stuff like that is, is so easily avoided.
Uh, that's important. Yeah. You need, you need to stay clear always. Yeah, for sure.
For sure. Antoine, thank you so much. It's such a pleasure to talk to you. Uh, how can people, before we, before we end here, how can people find out more about your, your, uh, Alpine adventures and your trips in, in, in the Himalaya?
Well, I'm, I'm not really good at communicating. Uh, my friend know that I'm not, I'm not the best communicators. But anyway, the one, the really, the, it's good. It's a good filter, you know, like you, you then get the people who really want to do it, which is perfect. Uh, but no, they just can simply send me a mail, uh, at, uh, Antoine underscore Lawrence, uh, at yahoo.fr. That's that there will be the simplest, if not, we have a Facebook, Facebook page for the Alpine adventure. And, uh, mostly also people contact me directly for, I'm doing a lot of these, um, three days, uh, BV course. You know, um, in the Himalaya, I kind of changed my, my way to, to insert there. Uh, I like to take people like small group, uh, two or three guys maximum.
And then we just go for two or three days. So like two nights out, you know, something like that. And this is, this is small, a little bit like you done with, uh, with John, you know, the same things, uh, instead of having a proper long 10 day school. So you always got some bad weather, whatever that with two, three days like that. We really focus. So on the, on the good days and, uh, and we just go for, uh, not with a big objective of, of distance. Uh, that's, that's never my, my big things. Uh, like I say earlier, I prefer stop the fly a little bit earlier and have the time to find a nice spot and make your top landing safe, you know, and that's the most important. So this kind of trip, uh, we do that a lot now in, in, in Himalaya in October, November, and then the Alpine adventure is running every year now for the last four years.
Uh, last. Week of June and first week of July. We do always, uh, up and down the way, uh, we are fully booked for this year, unfortunately, but we'll do it next year or where, um, again.
Fantastic. Well, I'll, I'll put all that information in the, in the show notes so people can have it and they can try to, uh, book you up next year, but that's fantastic, man. That's a good problem to have well done. And then I expect to, uh, I expect to hear from you, uh, out in front of us when we're in the exops. If you, if you'll give me. Some of your own private information and not to anybody else. That'd be great.
I'm not going to fly at the same speed. You know, we have a small, uh, objective average kilometer per day, not to you guys, but it takes a lot to, uh, to having me on your, on your podcast. That's that's really good. And I hope it helps. It's good.
It's fantastic. Antoine. So great to talk to you and catch up. Uh, we need to do this more often. And. And I can't wait to see you this spring as we always do. And thanks a lot. Appreciate it.
Cool. Thanks a lot, Kevin. Bye-bye.
Hope you
enjoyed that. Always great to sit down with, uh, an amazing friend and pilot and get his advice on so many critical things. All the things we talked about in that show are in the show notes, cloud-based mayhem.com underneath the podcast link. You'll find the links to Antoine's Alpine adventures and his, uh, Himalayan sky safari. Adventures and all the things that he's up to. So please go in there and check that out and review some of the things we talked about in the show. As always, all we ask for is a buck a show. If you want to support the podcast, this is a listener supported podcast. We asked for a buck a show that goes a long way into making all of this possible. As you can imagine, this takes a ton of time, stoked to do it and stoked to bring you this information.
You can find the links to donate either through PayPal or through Patrion on the website, cloudbasedmayhem.com. Patrion is a new way we have to support the show where you can kind of set it and forget it and be rewarded for doing so. So that's a lot of fun. Uh, if you can't support us financially, no big deal. Uh, there's many other ways to support the show. You can talk about us on Facebook or the social medias, uh, tell your friends. The whole reason this is out there is just to share knowledge and make all of us safer and better and, and allow us to fly farther. So tell other people about it. Give us a rating on iTunes. Those ratings actually go a long ways to bumping. Us up and allowing other people to find the show. So thank you very much for that. Uh, I am heading out on a UK little short film tour with North unknown.
You can find information on that through a cross country magazine and on their website. And on my website, we've got a few fun days planned in the UK. The first week of April. And we've got a couple of days of masterclasses where they're calling it up at Jackie Sanders, his flight park in the lake district, where I'll be talking about bull bib and expeditions and what to pack and how to be safe and how to top. And then hopefully get a couple of days of good flying with y 'all out there. So check those out. I think Saturday sold out, but we've still got some slots on Sunday and then we've got a venue hopefully over in Sweden and also in Oslo to shore North unknown. And I'll be introducing the film and telling some kind of fun backstories about Dave and I's adventure across the Alaska range. So hope you'll join me for those again. All that's on the website and, uh, thank you very much.
Thanks for listening and we'll see you on the next one. Cheers.