Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloudbase Mayhem. I've got an amazing show for you this time around, but just briefly a couple things of housekeeping before we get into it. I'm going on a really short little UK film tour with hopefully a stop in Munich and a stop in Chamonix the weekend of the 8th of April, courtesy of Cross Country Magazine. Thanks so much to Ed Ewing and Hugh Miller for helping me put this on. And I'm going to be actually up at Jocky Sanderson's flight park that weekend. I believe Saturday's sold out, but we've got a couple more spots for Sunday. We're calling it a master's class in paragliding. So we'll go out and we'll talk about Vol Biv and what should be in your pack and what to eat and drink to go far, thermaling and ground handling and top landing and dissecting Vol Biv and what should be in your pack and gear and all kinds of stuff.
So we'll try to share with you some of the knowledge I've acquired over the years and a lot of the knowledge actually that I've acquired on this podcast. If you want to find out more about that, go visit the website cloudbasemayhem.com or you can visit my Facebook page or Cross Country's Facebook page or their website. You'll find all that information on the interwebs. Secondly, I need some help from somebody that knows how to build a Wikipedia page. One of my sponsors has asked me to do that. We do have a page about me up. But again, I'm going to be up there. I'm constantly getting all these errors from Wikipedia that we're not doing it right and I don't understand Wikipedia at all. So if anybody has some experience in that realm and can help me out, reach out to me. I would love to bang this out and I'll make it worth your while.
Thank you. This episode, this is part two with Jeff Shapiro. He was the third guest we ever had on the show. He's back at number three. If you have not listened to that podcast, you need to. Please go back. Check that out. It was a very interesting time to be talking with Jeff for both of us. I was just wrapping up my first X-Alps and Jeff had just lost a whole bunch of friends, his very close friends in the base community and wingsuit base community, Sean Leary and Dean Potter and Graham Hunt and others. So he was going through a really reflective time, you know, thinking a lot about risk, a lot about why we do what we do. His thoughts on.
All of that are things that we all need to hear. So go back. I implore you to go back if you haven't and re-listen to that show. I actually re-listened to it right before we talked this time for about the millionth time, because it's just, it's, it's awesome. It's a, it's a great talk with a great human. So Jeff, about a week ago, reached out and said, Hey, I have gotten crazy into paragliding at that time. The first talk he had, he was just getting into paragliding after, you know, 25 years of hang gliding. Yeah. And I was really excited about it. So we decided to catch up, uh, this time and talk about all the things he's learned in the last year and a half, all the commonalities between hang gliding and how that has helped him get into this kind of new sport and, uh, where potentially it hasn't helped.
And, uh, he just got back from VIA in Mexico, flying around the sky with Cedar Wright and Matt Siegel and Nick Greece. And so we talk a bit about that trip and what he learned there and what Nick calls, uh, he's getting pretty close to cracking. And the code. So we talk about that and what that means and kind of his future plans and dreams and, uh, all the things he's thinking about now that he can put a paraglider on his back and cruise around. So, uh, another fantastic talk with another fantastic person. Uh, just love Jeff. I love the way he talks about our sport and the sky and the risks and the dangers and the, uh, anyway, there's just a lot to be gleaned from this talk. You're going to enjoy it. I know. I know it. So without further ado, please enjoy this, uh, amazing talk with Jeff Shapiro.
Jeff, um, God, it's so good to have you back on the show. I was really psyched, you know, doing this, uh, tour down the West coast last week and your name popped up in my phone about the same time I was thinking about you. Cause I've been watching you guys, you and Cedar and Matt Siegel and Nick, you guys having a bunch of fun down in VIA. And, you know, the last time we talked, uh, you, you had, uh, you know, you'd racked up. Uh, something like six, 10,000 hours or something ridiculous in a hang glider over 25 years. And, uh, you were taking up paragliding. You were very much in, uh, in Cedar's terms of fledgling. That was a year and a half ago. And it sounds like, uh, according to Nick, cause I saw him a couple of days later in Santa Barbara, he came down to the show. He says, you're getting pretty close to, uh, to cracking the code.
So I want to hear about what's happened in your world in the last, uh, in the year and a half since we spoke. I know. You've done some really cool trips to places like Nepal and, uh, and you're often doing it these days with a, with a paraglider on your back. So, uh, catch us up to speed a little bit. What's going on. And, uh, and thank you for coming on the show.
Oh, yeah, it's my pleasure. No, it's great to be back. It was, um, a fun opportunity to have a, an interesting discussion the first time. And, and, um, you know, to, to look back on the last year and a half, I mean, the first conversation we had was during, uh, and. And a really transformative time in life for me, there was a lot going on and, and, um, a lot of heavy questions and, you know, a year and a half doesn't seem like so long. It's kind of a blink of an eye in the larger scheme of things, but certainly there's been growth on the heaviest levels and, and, um, yeah, life couldn't be better. I mean, it couldn't be more amazing. It's, um, it's interesting how that happens. You know, the heaviest times in life, uh, tend to act as a fertilizer for, you know, the most amazing sort of growth.
Growth spurts and, and thoughts and, and, you know, those thoughts turn into actions. And in this case, I've been sort of going in some different directions and, and those directions are super exciting. Um, I, I, I didn't go to Nepal. I went to India, uh, which was, uh, uh, yeah, no, no, no worries. But that was, um, that was a really, uh, sort of influential and impacting trip for me. We, my climbing partner and I, a guy named Chris Gibbish, um, we went to a very, I wouldn't say completely unexplored or, but. But certainly, uh, less explored corner of the world in, in Northern India, in the Kashmir Himalaya, in a place called the Kishtwar National Park. And, um, we were fortunate enough to make an attempt on a, on a mountain that hadn't, uh, not, not only had it not been climbed from the south face, but it hadn't even been photographed.
So unique to expeditions for us. You know, typically if I was going to go on a trip around the world on the, you know, on the other side of the planet, I would have photos and beta. And, and have, you know, all of my research result in as much information as possible with oftentimes a line picked out and, and something to be quite inspired to try. And, and in this case, it wasn't that way. It was, um, the exploration and the adventure that was the inspiring part. We had no idea what we'd find. We had no idea what we'd climb. I mean, the, the only thing that we had to go on was, you know, a low resolution image that you can pull off of Google earth. So we'd done quite a bit of research, but we didn't, we didn't know what we were getting. Ourselves into, and, and we were fortunate enough to do a new route and stand on top of a beautiful peak and, uh, came back better friends than we were when we left, which is, um, which is always winning in my book.
Um, but you know, it's funny the whole time I'm, I'm reading, uh, books on paragliding and, you know, geeking out and wishing I was, you know, somewhere, uh, pulling, pulling a wing up over my head. Not, not that I wanted to be somewhere else, but I was definitely, you know, hooked and, uh, still am most recently. I mean, a lot of times. A lot's happened in the last year and a half, a lot of amazing trips and experiences, but in most recently I just got back from, as you said, this trip in Mexico. I, um, you know, I, I hang the difference between hang gliding and paragliding, um, in, in one sense is quite large. And in another, it's, it's almost the same, you know, the same rules apply this, the thermals are thermals and, um, micro met and the, the dynamics of, of the way.
that this guy changes is the same for both. Um, the decisions that you make, the intuition you have, uh, the lines you pick, the clues that tell you where to be, where not to be, how to get from point A to, you know, point unknown as efficiently as possible. All of those things apply. They're all exactly the same. What's different is the vehicle, you know, the, the limitations of the vehicle, how to pilot that vehicle, you know, paragliders is so different from a hang glider in a way that you have to manage the wing, uh, while making those decisions. And, and as you know, a different flight position, the difference in glide performance, the difference in speed, all of those factors and limitations change those decisions.
Those other things that I, I mentioned before as being applicable. And, um, that makes the learning curve exceptionally steep and really, really fascinating for me. So I, I had this, you know, luckily, I know some amazing pilots and, uh, guys that I just hold the highest levels of respect for one of which is Nick Greece. And, uh, Nick being not only an amazing pilot, but a very good friend had mentioned to me that he was psyched to, to go flying. And, um, I luckily took him up on that opportunity. And we went down to Valle, uh, during a time that I, I think it's probably more suited to hang gliding in terms of conditions. It was pretty strong and pretty windy, but those, those, those, those, those, those, those, those, those, those, those, those, those, those, those, those were exactly the conditions that I needed, I think.
And, uh, you know, the, the idea was for me to chase him around a bit and during the planning and, um, the evolution of, of getting ready for this trip, Cedar and Matt decided that they were psyched to come. And, um, you know, I couldn't imagine a better crew to be flying with. So, uh, I just was so psyched to go down there and to learn from all of those guys and to, um, you know, just continue my, my progression under a paraglider. And, uh, geez, man, that place, I mean, I'm, I'm sure you would agree. It's one of my favorite, you know, it's probably in the top three or four of my favorite places in the world. It's just the best of Mexican culture and architecture and food and the flying is incredible.
Even with the wind and the, the conditions being quite rough, we still had days and nights of flying. And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, we were, you know, climbing up the sides of clouds and, and, um, flying cloud canyons and, and lining up under the convergence and flying out to the butterflies. And, you know, the volcano was just standing proud. I mean, that place is just spectacular. So I couldn't be more grateful. It was an amazing trip.
I always encourage people to get down there and, and, you know, obviously you're going to have a lot of fun, but to me, it's one of the best places in the world to train. I think it's a really amazing place. You know, when we fly, where you and I fly and the Rockies were often way tall and you can go on these monster glides, you know, and especially in a hang glider, but, you know, in VIA, it's really technical. You never get that high or, you know, a big glides three or 4k as opposed to here where it's 20 miles, you know? And so I, you're, you're constantly having to work and reorient and reevaluate. And, and I just, I just think it's a really neat place. And then there's usually tons of people flying around and there's, there's no, no better way to learn than watching other people do it better than you are.
Exactly. You know, but what was interesting was on this trip and the only, the only time I'd previously flown in VIA was racing in the Pinon Classic and it must've been 2012 or 13 or something. And, um, we had exceptional conditions then too, whose cloud base was 14, five or 15,000 feet, which is, you know, reasonably uncommon there. And, um, we were flying close to or over a hundred miles every day and it was just spectacular flying. It was strong. It was, but it was spectacular. And, and this trip was similar in the fact that most of the paraglider pilots had, had gone. There was oftentimes we were, we were, yeah, we were the only four on launch. And, uh, and a few of the days there were some locals doing tandems that were quick and we were off early enough that, um, although hang gliders did fly, they were flying a bit later than us.
So oftentimes we were on course by ourselves. And, um, you know, like one day, that day that I was speaking of before, uh, when we flew, towards the butterflies, I got a bit behind Cedar and, and Nick and, um, you know, it was a great experience trying to pick lines and, and use those, uh, previous experiences, racing hang gliders to, to try and catch ground and, and hook up with those guys and, um, make time. And, and yet, although I think that you're right, I think being in competitions and certainly being in the air with other pilots is this incredible opportunity to test your decisions against theirs and to try and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and outclimb people and to work on techniques and, and, um, you know, learn from pilots that are much better than I, uh, it's also an amazing and super valuable experience to be on your own and to try and, uh, make good decisions based on nobody other than you to either make up ground or to get further.
Or, you know, I remember racing hang gliders and having days where I, you know, was low at the start and decided to take the next start. Only to find that, you know, 90 % of the field left on the first start and, um, you know, maybe even miss the second start and find myself flying the course completely by myself. And those, those days were the, some of the most valuable days. Sure. I, I learned more by racing with the best pilots in the world and being in a, the fastest gaggle and seeing why, you know, at times making my own decisions and then at times following and learning why the, the, the, the, the, the, the, you know, better pilots in the gaggle were making the decisions they were making. But those days where I was on my own pushing hard and letting go of the expectations of being competitive, I always found that there was an unbelievable amount of information to be learned.
And, um, oftentimes my results surprised me. I would be, you know, faster than I thought. And, um, you know, not as attached to success or failure based on other pilots, because there weren't any other pilots around. And, um, you know, I, I think, uh, sometimes, sometimes that's a, a, a unique, uh, opportunity and, uh, by a, for us, the fact that it was pretty rowdy and pretty strong and the, that there weren't any pair other paraglider pilots around most of the days, you know, it, it was, it was also an opportunity to be grateful for, I think.
Jeff, in the, in the last show, and those of you who are listening, if you, if you haven't heard the episode, it's episode three. Uh, with Jeff about a year and a half ago, you have to go back and listen to that episode. He, he had been going through a pretty rough time with, uh, the wingsuit community and talks about an amazing story that happened over King, which is kind of my backyard. Anyway, tons of great lessons there. And that stuff is stuff that we're kind of, kind of revisit. We're going to kind of revisit in this show, but let's think of that as like episode one in this two-part series. And hopefully we'll do many more in the, in the years to come. Jeff. But one thing that I really, that jumps out at me is, you know, in that first episode, you talked about, you know, some of the things that you're doing that are really part of your income and lifestyle and how you make money climbing wingsuit, base jumping, hand gliding, falconing.
What is it like to throw your feet into something completely new? And what is it like to be, you know, early forties like myself and just take on some of the things that you've that, you know, granted you're not green, like most people are, cause you've had all these hours hang gliding, but you know, you're, you're kind of, especially a year and a half ago, it sounds like you're, you're making huge progress as we would all expect. But let's talk about that. Like being a beginner again, being new at something again.
Yeah. Yeah, man. The best, I think, honestly, it's the best thing in life. There, there isn't a better thing in life than to be a beginner. And, um, you know, none of those things that you mentioned, you know, you're not the things that have become, uh, an ability to keep the lights on, take care of my family are, are done for, you know, I don't, I don't do those things for that reason. I'm just, um, for, you know, fortunate enough to, to have, uh, to be involved with amazing companies who are, you know, supportive and, uh, and allow me to, to live this lifestyle. But, but the, the reality is, is, and this was the same with wingsuit base jumping. Um, I gotta tell you. So, so when I, um, decided that I wanted to learn how to wingsuit base jump, I had had, and we talked about this, I think in the first episode, I had had some funny conversations with, uh, my buddy Dean and Dean being Dean, uh, was, you know, pretty, um,
persuasive when it came to talking about how amazing jumping off lifts and, and wearing wings on your arms was in, you know, relative to my experience in a hang glider at the time I was, you know, going to five or six big comps a year around the world. And, and hang gliding was, uh, the dominant feature in my life. And, um, I had never been attracted to the idea of falling or skydiving or anything like that. And so when I saw him do it and was attracted to doing it, I had to make a decision. And the decision was, do I leave this environment where I know everybody and everybody knows me, I feel very comfortable and, um, and capable, you know, and, uh, I feel, you know, um,
I don't want to say that it's connected to achievement in any way, but in a way it kind of was, it was, I just felt, um, established and to leave that behind and walk into a drop zone of all places, which is a pretty, you know, can't, could be kind of, uh, said to, to be its own sort of, uh, community and, and environment and hierarchy and all these, um, you know, these aspects of, of, of skydiving drop zones to walk into that environment where nobody had a, a clue who I was or, or gave a shit. And, you know, to start at the beginning to say, I know nothing, please, you know, teach me everything, you know, I need to learn and to detach from ego and definitely from personal identity, from like seeing myself as a hang glider pilot.
You know, I had to come to terms with this idea that no longer, uh, was I going to be able to say, Hey, I, you know, I'm a professional hang glider pilot making my living flying hang gliders. And instead I was stepping in, Hey, I'm, I'm a beginner skydiver that has aspirations to someday, uh, fly in the mountains and wingsuit. And I have to tell you that letting go of, of that, or at least the recognition that I didn't feel like personal identity being connected to something, especially that involved risk was acceptable. And that was very freeing, uh, for me. And it also ended up being that, um, I reconnected with that, that what we talked about, how amazingly fun it is to be a beginner to learn.
And, and then the emphasis of why it was that I was out there doing the things that I was doing became more clear. It wasn't to be good at something. I could give a shit about being good. It was to get better, to learn that, that progress and that progression was what was really turning me on. So to let that go and to try hard to learn every day, to be better than I was yesterday, really, was, became the driving factor and has since become the driving factor of my life. And I feel strongly that that's kind of the right reason for me to do these things. And it's not certainly not the only reason, I mean, joy and happiness and the, uh, appreciation for life that comes with a focus on, on, um, you know, uh, staying alive.
Those, those things I think are also factors, but, um, learning, continuing to grow as a person, continuing to, to explore what's out there, what's possible and, you know, finding new things to experience. I have only so much time between the time I'm born and the time I die. And to continue doing the same thing over and over again is, um, you know, it's, I think we can't continue doing the same things without continuing to learn. It's, it's, uh, undeniable, but clearly when you choose new things and new environments, that learning curve becomes a bit more impacting and certainly, uh, as a steeper curve. So, um, my goal has changed from being, you know, the very best at one thing to trying to utilize my time on this planet to experience as much as possible.
And then all of the benefits of that become, I get to meet new people, amazing people. Uh, I get to, um, discover new perspectives and, and certainly new culture and, uh, see the world and see how other people live. And that in turn, uh, feeds the way that I live and who I become and allows me to, to, to be a better person around the people that I love the most. And, and, um, it's, it's a formula that's been working for me. So, yeah, I, I, I think, you know, paragliding is very much that way. A lot of what I'm absolutely turned on, uh, about paragliding or what turns me on about paragliding is, is that, is that, is, is not only is it this new way to fly and, and we should talk about this too. It's also a, an incredible meld between this alpinist, uh, mentality, uh, and, and my love for flight, you know, it really does cohesed climbing and flying in a way that wingsuit base jumping and, and, um, hang gliding cannot both are individually amazing, but they're not, they're not the same.
They don't have that same potential that paragliding has. I
was just going to say what, what is really screaming out to me now is it must be awesome for you to be seeing this world that you're so intimate with through hang gliding. And, you know, like you said, thermals are thermals. Lines are lines, you know, that the techniques are similar, but it must be a completely different way in some ways to see, to see the world. I mean, you're, you're, you're suddenly, you're able to launch now in 30 seconds. You've got something in your bag that you can put on your back, you know, what, how is that, how is that impacting the way that you, that you are seeing flying? It must be enormous.
No, it's incredible. The thermals, as we know, you know, you, you gain this repertoire, of experience in this, this, that experience can be, it's, it's stored subconsciously, but you can draw from it. So as you're thermaling, you know, it's always, I think I might've said this in our last conversation, uh, the best pilots, in my opinion, have this ability to balance intuitive and linear thoughts. So while you're thinking about the shape of the thermal, the length of, or the, the character of the thermal, you know, based on, obviously based on lapse rate and, and, um, stability, the length of the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the cycle length will depend or will determine whether or not the thermals bubble-like or column-like and how long it lasts. And, and, you know, all these things like temperature and directional, uh, shears affect the way the thermal behaves as it, as it ascends, cools and expands.
So all of that is very similar. And I'm thinking in, in logical terms as, as to what's happening, but all of that is building into an intuitive thought process that allows me to drift and sniff out thermals, you know, uh, the best part of a thermal, oh, it must've gone over here. You know, it's, it's kind of becomes a bit of a mix between knowledge and dark arts, you know, and all of that is the same in a hang glider or a paraglider. The two aircraft are close enough that all of that is the same, but the, but you're right. The, the beauty of it is, is, um, while I'm climbing now and trying to do all of that automatically, I'm also trying to manage the wing. And, um, if it's rough and there are, you know, sharp edges, if it's a high pressure day or, or whatever, being able to, to keep the wing pressurized and have the, you know, the proper techniques of, of stopping problem before it becomes a problem.
You know, I had a couple of little cravats that I had to fish out for the first time and some pretty big wax, um, including a more than a 50 % or like 350 feet off the ground, uh, coming into land in an active field one time on this last trip, you know, those things are, are very new for me. So I'm, I'm doing my best to, to, you know, have good reaction time and, and to use, what, uh, people like Nick has to have told me to, um, to make sure that I, like I said, I fix the problem before it becomes a problem. Now that the beauty is, is you're right. The thing fits on your back and with a light kit, if you're fit and you have some experience in the mountains and more, most importantly, I think the mindset that you can get yourself out of anything and then, you know, the, uh, proper analysis skills to say, you know, this is a safe LZ.
That's a safe LZ. Even though they're not green fields at the bottom next to a road, you know, you can go pretty deep and, uh, in a hang glider, although the glide is much better and you can reach much further, you still need to stay, um, responsible and respectful relative to where you, you know, can and, and eventually we'll have to land that aircraft. And, uh, a paraglider allows me to be, I think a little bit more free of that. And, uh, especially with the base jumping experience, you know, you can, geez, you know, you can land a base parachute and some postage stamp spots in the deep mountains. And yes, they're consequential and yes, it counts, but, but it's, it's very possible.
And a paraglider requires more than a, than a base rig for sure. But you still have this, for me, that experience crosses over a little bit. I still have these, these different eyes. And I think that if I chose a line for the sake of the adventure, I know that I'm going to be able to do it. I'm going to be able to do it. I'm going to be able to do it. And I know if I'm prepared that I could land on a logging road or in a clear cutter or somewhere, even if it's on top of the mountain in the deepest part of the range, I know that I can put that thing on my back and, you know, uh, use my DeLorme to text the people that I care about that I'm okay and take however long it takes to get myself out. And that, that's, um, that's a, that's a pretty cool feeling to, to not be hindered by some of the rules that have, that have been sort of have governed my decisions over the past year.
The past 25 years, you know, it's exciting. It's exciting to think about these things that you guys are doing to take this mentality of going into, uh, the greater ranges and, and having a, an adventure of, of real uncertainty and apply that to paragliding or apply that to my, my, my free flying. And, um, you know, I got a long ways to go and I, it's so it's, it's funny. I, well, I mean, relative, you know, I think a lot of people, when I, I've said in the past, if you think you can do it, if you believe you can do it, you can do it. If someone else is doing it, you can do it. There's, there's nothing that would stop anybody from doing anything that they knew was possible if they had the proper amount of belief. And people hear that and they sometimes will, will get sort of be taken back and think that what I mean is, is that, um, if you can imagine it, it'll happen tomorrow.
And that's not what I mean at all. I guess I don't mention it because I think it's a given. Uh, it's, it's also required to, you know, do the work. You got to accept a slow apprenticeship and, and be humble and make decisions based on the conservative side of the line until, you know, and, um, that takes time. It takes effort. It takes, uh, you know, nothing replaces mileage, right? And in our case, airtime. So you just have to get in the air and, and, um, and learn all that you need to do with enough room for error that your, your mistakes are inexpensive so that when, uh, they're going to count, you'll, you'll hopefully do the right things and make good decisions. And, you know, like I said, that, that alpinist mentality applies to paragliding.
And for me right now, especially is, is super exciting. I'm, I'm like completely geeking out on it. It's great. It's like, are
there, are, imagine, are there things in your, in your hang gliding history? Because it's, it's so long and deep. Are there things there that might be holding you back or are they all just pluses? Is all of your experience with flying just automatically dump into the air? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Into learning paragliding, it makes it easier. Or are you, are you finding some things, maybe even, uh, ego or are there things that are getting in the way?
No, you know, um, the ego part, uh, that was, uh, that's, you know, I mean, I have an ego like everybody else. And the, and the most important part of an ego is that it keeps you alive. Right. But that, that part was, that part was solved for me. Well, hopefully it's been impacted, I guess, by a really, a close call on a wingsuit and, you know, living on bonus time ever since, like, I don't have, I don't need to, you know, I, I certainly don't need to prove anything to myself. So I, I, the way, the way I operate these days is, um, you know, for the long, the longterm, I try and keep what I do sustainable and make decisions to, to do the things that I love to do only when they call to me. And, and when, um, you know, joy and, uh, you know, the most important reasons are the, the, the, the factors that are, that are causing me to do those things.
But, but I wouldn't say hang gliding has caused anything negative relative to paragliding. I do. I mean, maybe some technical things like it, for instance, and this was interesting. I sort of learned this on this last trip in a hang glider. Uh, speed is always your friend. You know, you need airspeed speed, uh, allows you to have quicker, uh, input on the glider, you know, because of adverse yaw, if you're flying slow, the slower you fly, the more delay there is in your input to the glider and how the glider behaves. So speed is, is always, uh, going to help things. You know, if, if you pull in, uh, and you're flying faster as I add input, that input translates to the glider doing what I want it to quicker. And, um, and then also, uh, that being a pretty high level factor towards staying safe, especially climbing.
Uh, those things kind of, they're not, they don't apply as much in a paraglider, you know, um, being heavy in the hands when you're climbing, isn't necessarily going to, as long as you keep your wing above your head, it's not necessarily going to cause you to be, to put yourself in a dangerous situation. If I'm thermaling in a hang glider slow and it's rowdy, for instance, you're, you're risking spinning the glider or, uh, you know, if it's really rowdy tumbling. And if in a paraglider, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you know, you're maybe hands up, you know, you're, you're, it seems to me like, and, and Nick pointed out that, um, you can get pushed around a bit and be, be more going for a ride as opposed to smoother in your turns and, and flatter. And, and, um, so maybe there are some things in the control, uh, aspects of the different wings that have been a transition for me to try and learn, but I wouldn't say that, well, I would say that hang gliding has done nothing, but help me exposure to that environment.
Uh, looking for signs, uh, looking for the way clouds form and, and on which side of the cloud as I'm flying towards it, it's, I'm likely to find the best lift looking for birds, looking for other pilots, having that, that immediate intuition to shift from where I'm climbing to where another pilot is climbing. If they're climbing even just a little bit better than me, I'm never leaving lift to go look for lift. If I'm survival mode, all of those things apply. So I wouldn't say that hang gliding has hurt me at all. It, there is some, like I said, limitations relative to each wing that I'm having to relearn. And, um, and that's cool. But, um, but I, I would say flying a hang glider has done nothing but help. Uh, it's, it, yeah.
How would you compare, how would you compare the risk and also the fear side of it? Now I'm asking you to go way back, you know, to when you were first learning hang gliding, but you know, one of the things that paragliders hear from hang gliders all the time, they're like, oh, I don't know how to do this. I don't know how to is that, you know, oh my God, those things collapse. They must be so sketchy, you know, and, and vice versa. We look at hang gliders and go, yeah, but you guys are flying so fast, you know? Um, what, what are the kind of, what are the things that are real there versus misconceptions? Um, you know, are you finding, are you finding paragliding a more nerve wracking in any way, I guess, to learn?
No, you know, neither. I don't think neither of, I don't think either of those things. I don't, I mean, I, I don't mean to say that I've never been scared in, in either wing, but neither of those things cause anxiety for me. I think they're just, they're just, um, pieces of information to, to pay attention to and to, um, to understand and try and understand as intimately as possible. And then to make your decisions, uh, appropriately because of, you know, if I'm in a hang glider, you know, if, if the field is, is long and the air is smooth, uh, coming in and low is acceptable. But if, um, it's a short field and there's obstructions and it's really, really active, I might change my approach plan to, to create a, a larger margin.
And paragliding seems to me like it's the same way. I, I think it's cool that they collapse. I think it's great. You know, as long as you're not close to the ground, I mean, you know, none of us should be afraid of, of anything but hitting the ground. And, uh, I, so, so until I get an intimate, skill set of being able to keep my wing open at all times with a hundred percent certainty, which I, I, I doubt will ever come, you know, thermaling and super active air close to the ground will be something that I might choose to avoid, you know? Um, and yet when I'm climbing, if I'm getting banged around a bit and, uh, I'm trying to learn how to keep the wing open, uh, as another sort of tool in the toolbox, then I kind of hope it happens so that I can continue to gain that experience.
So, you know, I don't think either is nerve wracking. And certainly the one thing that I've learned over the years is that fear is definitely, uh, something that helps you stay safe and you should take, take heed, but to, to allow that fear to, to create the reaction of, of maybe not being as quick or as, I don't know, the, the focus on fear doesn't help ever. And so to stay, to stay focused and, and relaxed and calm and remember to breathe and to think each problem through while it's happening and, um, you know, to enjoy where you're at, to remember to have fun. You know, it's, it's funny that Cedar and I were talking about this when you're climbing and it's rowdy, you, you basically two, two things can happen, right?
You can be like, Oh God, this is, this is intense. And, and I don't want to be here. I need to fly out of this thermal and go land. Or you can be like, yeah, yeah, this is rad more. Give me more. I'm, I'm loving this. This is what I'm here for. That difference in attitude
is everything.
It is. And, and what's, what's, if you step back and outside of yourself and you look at yourself during that moment, what you realize is that those two things are nothing more than a choice between your own ears and at perspective, uh, can be changed. If you're feeling a little uncomfortable and it's not fun, it, it's kind of difficult to do. Um, especially if you're kind of like, like sort of in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in that mindset already for various other reasons. But you can, you can flip the switch and you can say, no, I actually do want to be here. This is amazing. Like I'm, I'm off the ground. I'm climbing and it's rowdy and this is rad. Like, yes, give me more. And if you do that, your whole, uh, your whole experience changes and one way or the other you're learning, right?
Whether you're, it's kind of like, you know, you're climbing El Cap and you, and, or whatever you're climbing somewhere and you're, you're in the middle of the route, you know, the next morning you wake up terrified and, and yet, you know, you're still there. There's, you know, there's no, you're, you're not, you're not going to be able to close your eyes and wake up in your, you know, in the comfort of your, your bed or on your couch, you're there. So if you're there, you got to, you have to, you have this choice. You either are miserable and scared or you choose to, to accept where you're at as opportunity for adventure. And you put one foot in front of the other and solve each problem individually and try and have fun and enjoy where you're at.
Look around, breathe deep, you know, and accept, uh, the opportunity to be in this unique position as that unique, something that, um, you know, you won't get to do again, maybe. And, uh, you know, the idea of type two fun, you know, you look back on something and it's only fun after it was done because you look back on it and it was cool and all the suffering's over. But, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, like, you know, you'll, I try and do that. I try and think about this. Like if I'm in a paraglider and it's scary and, uh, you know, I have this urge to like go on land and put myself in a safe position. And I think, I want to say it was Nick and I, maybe, maybe it was Cedar or Matt. Um, but we talked about this too. What you, you, it's important to imagine yourself doing that.
Imagine yourself go going and landing. And then what you're on the ground wishing that you were in the air. And if, if you're, if you're, if you're, if you're, if you're, if you're, if you're in danger, that's one thing. But if it's just fear and, and discomfort, imagine yourself going and landing and, and ask yourself, or I asked myself, uh, does, is this really where I want to be? You know? And the answer almost 10 times out of 10 is no, I would rather be exactly where I'm at sitting in a paragliding harness, pulling on a brake, going around and up, uh, like a rocket and, um, and staying in the game. And, uh, and you know, yeah, it is scary, but, uh, that is just an emotion, just like happiness and, and anger and all these things. So you, I just try and recognize that and, um, and file it and then, um, sit back and decide that this is exactly where I want to be.
And the only way to learn is to continue and, um, make good decisions and, and keep experiencing life, you know? And, uh, geez, man, I'm sure you would agree like the adventure of free flight, that, that is a pretty cool life to live.
Absolutely. I'm going to, I'm going to just, uh, talk about a couple of things when, when you were speaking there, it brought up some, some, uh, thoughts that came from a couple of our real recent podcasts that I thought were terrific. In case you missed those, um, one was Nick Nanens. He was, he was in the, uh, ex-Alps with me in 2015, Kiwi. He's doing it again this year. And I asked him about that, you know, like, Hey, when you're in a really rowdy place, you know, how do you, how do you pat that fear down? How do you, you know, put it in the right box that it needs to be in for that? One moment. And he said, one of the things that really helps him out, I just loved this was that, you know, imagine what, what it would be like if you turned your vario, vario off number one, because when you're in a really rowdy climb, of course your vario is going crazy. So suddenly you turn that off and the stress level goes way down.
You just, you don't have that just, you don't have that reminder that you're in a ripper. And then he says, and then I imagine what I look like if I, you know, if I was a person on the ground looking up, it wouldn't look that bad, you know, it's just a paraglider flying around, you know, and you have to remember these things that it's, you know, it's usually probably not nearly as bad as you think. And, and especially, you know, if you have these extraneous things honking at you, you know, I remember one day in the X-Alps, just getting this terrible flush, you know, had I turned my vario off, I just would have been going down really fast. You know, it wouldn't have been a big Denali mean, you know, it was good. I mean, it's, it's all input. And I mean, we need all these inputs, you know, to make good decisions. But there are ways, like you said, to control what's going on between the years.
Yeah, I never have my sync alarm on. It's so funny, even back in the hang gliding days, like, I do not want to hear my vario unless I am going up. Well, I do not care if I'm not going up. If it's, if my vario is silent, I assume I'm going down. And you know how it is. It's like your, your airspeed indicators, your ears and your altimeters, your drives, like, you know, uh, just from being sensitive and getting a bunch of airtime, you know, when you're going down, uh, fast enough that you need to change course and or fly faster. So I don't want to hear it, man. I don't want to, you know, totally.
I, I, uh, and I have to explain where that came from. I, I cannot stand sync alarms. I've never used them, uh, in the, in the X-Alps, they make you use a fly master, which I had never used. Uh, when I first used it, you know, a couple weeks before the race training with it, I realized it had just the sync alarm. So I turned it off, but apparently, you
know, I don't want to hear it. I don't want to hear it. I don't want to hear it.
It was still on if it was below a minus eight, you know, so it was a kind of a, you know, a ridiculous amount of sync, then it, then it would go on. And in that case it was going crazy, but yeah, I can't agree more. Sync alarms are distracting it at best. Um, the, the other thing that I just, I just did this ground handling episode. This isn't out yet, but, uh, with a guy named Nick Cox, who's, who's just learning. Uh, and he, he has this thing called the four second rule that you can, you can use in any situation. It doesn't have to be flying necessarily, but just breathe four seconds in four seconds out for any, even if you just do it for a minute, you know, it's not necessarily meditation, but just if you just consciously breathe a little bit, um, things get a lot calmer and that's a good one.
I think a lot of, you know, for me personally, I noticed that when I start sitting up in my harness, you know, like I start getting up between part of that's because if I have a big collapse, I want to keep myself from getting and ending up in any kind of riser twist, but mostly it's stress. You know, and that, that's a real good sign to me that, Oh, I'm a little bit stressed out right now. Lean back, breathe. And, and it really handles a lot of things.
Yeah. I use, I use a mantra. I say something out loud over and over again. And it, um, it, it's always, it's from the, from the tumble days and it's always helped and it does, it reduces fear and you know, I, yeah, it's interesting. And you know, that, that whole, um, like bring your legs in and sit up, you know, I've been experiencing that a bit. I got a new harness and just got it adjusted correctly and feel psyched about it. But I've been in line twists a lot in a, in a base canopy. A lot of times when you open slightly off heading, uh, from the direction of wind, if there is wind or a slightly out of balance, you know, when you open in a wingsuit, you're one of the parts of your wingsuit turns into a prop and you just spin up and, um, dealing with that, uh, as you're descending towards the trees and trying to kick out a line to us and, and then, um, you know, redirect to the canopy into the right direction to get yourself into a place where you can land safe.
Those, those skills tend to apply to, you know, everybody talks about riser twists and I'm just like, Hey, what's the big deal, you know, but I haven't, I haven't, I haven't experienced it in a paraglider yet. So I'm sure that it's probably a bigger deal than I think it's going to be.
No, it's really not. You know, the only time it becomes kind of a problem is if you're really wound up, you know, you're set, you're in some kind of auto rotation, uh, you know, where you're, you've got a big curve out or something. And so then it becomes hard, to spin out because there's so much energy, you know, that if you're in a big, strong spiral, then it can be pretty tough. And then you just, you know, then the secret is just to go above the brakes, you know, cause you're, you can't pull any brake. Uh, so you gotta get your hands out and go, go higher. And you know, this is where SIV training really comes in.
Yeah. And you know, I wonder too, cause I did some SIV last year and I really enjoyed it. Um, in fact, I find it, I found it to be, uh, one of the more valuable things that I've done in a paraglider so far, but, um, you know, in a, in a base canopy. And I wondered if it's the same, uh, you, you would twist the lines down to the risers, which is a, uh, a greater angle and allows, uh, for the physics to, to cause you to rotate the other way and unspin quicker. And the other benefit of that is as you're twisting the, the risers, the, to bring those twists down from the lines to the risers, you can reach up oftentimes and grab a rear line group above the twist and control the glider or stop a turn. Um, you know, I had to do that in, uh, uh, I had an off heading and line twists and, um, had to campus up the lines and grab a rear, a rear line group to get the canopy turned and, and, uh, in, you know, going the right direction before kicking out of the line twists.
And I wonder if, if that stuff applies to paragliding, but, um, you know, I, I guess I, in some ways I hope to find out in some ways I don't, you know, when
you, uh, when, when you start learning helis and stuff, you'll, you'll have plenty of opportunities to test it all out.
Well, take, take me through Jeff, um, from, from, you know, a year and a half ago when you were kind of getting into it. So wings hours, uh, you know, what, what has your, your own personal progression looked like and how have you attacked it? How have you, how have you kind of disassembled the, the, you know, because I would imagine your, your trajectory and your, you know, one of the things is you, you've got a lot
of, you know, you've got a lot of, you know, you've got a lot of access,
like you said, to amazing pilots like Nick. Um, that's a huge hand up, but how have you kind of unpacked learning this similar, but very different activity?
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I, um, I, I still love to fly a hang glider. So, um, in the last couple of years, uh, I've certainly continued to do that, um, as well, but the, um, paragliding progression, especially recently has, has kind of become dominant. And, um, so knowing that nothing replaces mileage, I have wanted to spend as much time in a paraglider as I can. So yeah, I've been, uh, I started off flying, uh, an older wing, an old Arcus, and it was just an interesting way to learn how to kite and to manage, uh, you know, the energy of, of that era of wing and, um, did some flying on it. But I basically, my first wing, I bought a geo and, um, it was, uh, it's a fantastic wing, super, super good passive safety.
I really enjoyed flying it and it, it flies great. It's a, compared to the other canopies or the other types of canopies that I've flown, it flies a little bit like a base rig. It's, it's a bit of a truck, but I think that it's built that way for a reason. It's incredibly safe. I did my SIV clinic on it and it, man, you, you can pull as much as you want out of the front of that glider and you, your hands up, that thing is there above your head immediately. And, um, you know, doing like full rotation spins into full stalls was, you know, it, that, that felt pretty sporty to me at that time. And that wing, uh, took a lot of those fears and, and brought them down to a level that was acceptable. So I couldn't be more thankful for that, that time on that wing. I got enough hours on it that I wanted to, uh, to try something, something different.
And, um, I, I ended up making a, probably a pretty, a reasonably sized jump to an Alpina too. Uh, and the Alpina is also an incredibly safe wing. But it's definitely busier than a geo and it, uh, you know, requires a lot less input to get it to do what you want. And I love it. I love the way it flies. I couldn't be happier. Uh, it's definitely, you know, it's going to allow me to continue to row, uh, as a pilot at a, at a pretty high rate, as long as I continue to make good decisions and to fly within my skillset and level of experience. Um, so that's what I'm doing. And, and, uh, you know, keeping that wing open in really active air.
Um, certainly it's capable. It's got quite a bit of glide for a C wing and, um, it's very light and easy to carry around in the mountains. It feels like it's got amazing passive safety and yet it does require you to be active and to, uh, you know, do what needs to be done to keep that thing open. And, um, and, uh, it handles beautifully. So, so that's where I'm at. I'm flying right now. I have, um, an Oseum for the, you know, the day. Where I'm looking for lighter, lighter gear. And I have a Woody Valley X-Alps GTO harness that I really like a lot. Uh, and, um, I'm flying that Alpina too and love it. I'm just gonna, you know, get as many hours as I can. I always told my students, um, in a hang glider that they need to be out flying their wing, wishing they had more before it's appropriate to trade up.
And I'm going to try and follow that, you know, my own advice and just basically, uh, fly the piss out of that wing and try and go big. And, um, fly the lines that are inspiring to me to fly, uh, locally and around the world and, and gain the experience where I know, uh, I'll know when it's time to trade up to, um, to a hotter ship. And, and, um, I'd be lying if I said that wasn't something that interested me, you know? So, um, I've been geeking out on gear and psyched to, to experience as much as I can, but, but all in due time. And, um, you know, there's no sense in, in not doing, more than you need, you know, uh, in anything regarding, um, activities that involve risk.
Sure. Um, a couple of days ago I was sitting with Nick and he was relating some of your trip to me down in Valle. And he said, uh, he said something that I laughed at. I thought was so cool. He said that you're getting really close to cracking the code. What does that mean to you? And how does that, how does that relate to your own kind of short term? Um, by short term, I mean, you know, next couple of years, you know, your, your own, like, are you, are you already fantasizing? Have you got some things planned that you want to do? Or, you know, how are you, how are you visualizing, um, you know, your, your near term future in the sport?
Oh yeah, man. I mean, you know, the way I live my life, it's like one constant daydream, right? I mean, that's, that's the, that's the deal is, is you have to, you know, it's funny. I always say, don't dream big, do big, you know? And that's true. But you kind of have to start by like dreaming audaciously. And, and, um, you know, I'm not sure what, what Nick meant by cracking the code. Although, uh, I'm, I'm happy to hear him say that he's, um, you know, Nick's one of these guys, it's just like, ah, man, he's so smart and so skilled. And, um, and so when I get a chance to fly with them, I look forward to the opportunity to learn, uh, more than I normally would by a long shot. I do feel like this last trip, I learned a shitload. I feel like, um, you know, digging out from some holes and, and chasing those guys down and, and doing, uh, some things that, you know, did act as sort of, uh,
telltales that I am progressing. That's, that's like the most fun, right? Is when you're, when you realize you're actually progressing. Um, so, so in that way, the trip was super fun and yeah, absolutely. I have all kinds of audacious dreams and paraglider already. I'm, I'm psyched. You know, Nick and I are talking about, uh, going on an adventure this summer and a place in the world that I've always wanted to go and, uh, and seeing it under a paraglider. And, um, and then, you know, I would love to do in the last several years, I've really, really, really enjoyed doing a wingsuit base jump adventures by myself. And that alone time sort of speaks back to the time where I was enjoying soloing routes, um, you know, climbing routes by myself. And, and I think, uh, every day I try and spend a little bit of alone time.
I think it's super important. And so I have these, these dreams to, to fly long ball Biv lines by myself. And, um, my love for the Himalayas, my passion for the Himalayas, of course, dreams lead me there. And, uh, certainly, uh, other, other places in the world. And, uh, yeah, I, geez, I have a long list that I'm sure you would just laugh at, but I'm super psyched, you know, and you know, they'll say it'll, it'll take as long as it takes, but, but yeah, absolutely. I don't, I don't think I'd
laugh at any of them. I think I just want to, I think I, I think I'd want to just come on all of them knowing how you dream.
I'm psyched. Yeah, no, I'm super psyched. I mean, there is so much to experience in this life, you know, and, and so many, uh, so many unknowns, so, so much uncertainty. It's like to not tap into it would be, um, a travesty, you know?
Yeah. No kidding. Okay. Switching gears here a little bit. The last talk we had was, uh, in a lot of ways, very intense because you were, you were coming out of a pretty awful period, really, uh, Dean and Graham and Sean and a lot of other, uh, friends, very close friends and your mentors in the base world, in the wingsuit world. And we had a pretty serious talk at the end that I don't actually know actually really got answered. You know, I was saying, you know, how do you, what are you going to, are you going to keep jumping? You weren't really sure at that point. And also, you know, we were talking about justifying the risk with your, with your family and your daughter. And, uh, you know, you said some really poetic things that really hit me. And I know a lot of our listeners about, you know, why we pursue what we pursue.
And, uh, so I just, I'd like to find out where you are now and you've had some time to think about it. And, uh, so I understand. And you are jumping again. So yeah, let's, let's hear what's, what's happening in the wingsuit world.
Yeah. Well, you know, it's funny, you mentioned that it was a really awful time. In some ways it was awful. It was, um, it's horrible to lose friends, but in a lot of ways it was a very, very beautiful time. Uh, because it, you know, it transformed, it transformed my, the direction of my life. And, um, and I always say that, you know, those guys dying as horrible as it was. And as, as much as I wish every minute of every day that it didn't happen, it was kind of the greatest. Gift that those guys ever gave me and several others, because it's allowed us to change our behavior and, um, and hopefully stay alive a little longer. And, uh, I owe them everything for that. I, you know, I, I, I am still jumping and, um, and I do love it. And, um, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's interesting.
A lot has happened since then. And some of it is very similar and relative. Uh, when I left for, and I just got done writing an article about this, when I left for India five or six days before I left two friends, um, amazing guys and super inspirational, super strong, super experienced climbers, uh, were lost in Pakistan in a storm. And, um, that was really tough to say to my family, I'm still going to go, you know, um, to go on an expedition and, and, uh, the unknowns involved in going to the Himalayas, try a new route, uh, shortly after two guys that, you know, I felt like were, were peers. And, and certainly at the top of their game died doing it. Uh, it's a pretty, it was a pretty reflective time once again, you know, and, and yet the conclusions that Chris and I came to was the same conclusions that, that resulted from, uh, the previous experiences in a wingsuit.
And that's that to, to, to, to go and to potentially not climb because of weather, because of, uh, objective hazard, because of difficulty. Whatever it might be that, that fits into the category of risk management, but to not go based on fear and doubt of what could happen is unacceptable to me. It's unacceptable. And the reason is, is because, uh, it would, it would apply. It would have to apply as a rule to the rest of my life. And that that's just not the way I want to live. So do I answer the question? Am I going to quit wingsuit based shipping? Am I going to quit, uh, Alpine climbing in the Himalayas or whatever? It's not, it's not fair to say that I can even come close to make, making that, that decision as a whole.
And instead it has to be a decision that is answered every time you do it. You know, is this jump acceptable? Is this route acceptable? Uh, to not go is, is depriving, uh, myself of being me. And, um, and that, that isn't, like I said, it's not acceptable. So I think where I'm at with it is, is, is there, you know, when I, I decide that, uh, flying a wingsuit in the mountains is calling to me, which it does, then I go. And if it doesn't call, I don't go. And, uh, the results of the jump, if I decide to do it, that, that joy, that absolute and utter fulfillment, um, that recognition, you know, because of these, and I might've mentioned this in the last talk, these, these feelings that we get based on our mortality and the reflection of our mortality, these feelings that we get based on that life is, is to be paid attention to, uh, moment by moment, that every moment is precious, that we're, you know, we should be grateful for, for what we have.
And that, that gratitude, uh, and humility leading to the ability to make the choice to be happy. Um, you know, all of that, it's fleeting. It goes, it goes away. You learn it and, and it does the question, you know, do I've learned this lesson? Do I need to learn it again? The answer is yes, because we're humans. And we forget it. And, um, or at least I do. I mean, maybe it's just my small brain, but I, I learned these lessons and then I, and then it does, it wears off in the routine of life. And, um, you know, all of the black and whites become blurry again. And, um, and it's important to remind myself of that. And I find that I can be reminded easily when I'm in the flow. Uh, and that flow comes from being in sort of a, an incredibly intense environment when I choose to be
uh, knowing that it's going to give me that gift and, and fulfill my life in a way that it will allow me to appreciate what I have. And, um, do I need it? No, but does it help? Yeah, it does. And I, and I love it. And so, uh, when it calls, I go and when I get there, I make the decision if it's appropriate, you know, does, does the weather, is the weather going to allow safe enough conditions? Does the way I do, you know, do I feel up to the task? And if the answers are all yes, then, then I do it. And, uh, you know, if I'm true to myself in that way and an accident happens, well, you know, life is life and it has to end at some point. But if I make a decision, uh, based on the, you know, based on identity or expectation or ambition, then, uh, and I die doing it, then, then it's, it, you know, then it's a bad thing, right?
It's like, it's never worth that. So, so that's what I try and think about when I do these things. And, um, because of that, I don't care if, uh, I'm, you know, if, if a long period passes between the times that I jump or whatever, to me, it's, I need to be current enough to be safe, but, um, I only do it if it calls to me. And, uh, and I, you know, luckily for me, oftentimes it does, but right now, you know, right now I'm psyched on paragliding. So that's what I'm going to do. I'm, I'm climbing and paragliding as much as I possibly can. Um, I got a couple of projects coming up, one that involves, uh, trying a route on El Cap that I've always wanted to do, um, with, uh, with Maddie Siegel and, and, um, and another involves, uh, uh, you know, the potential of, of growing more in a paraglider.
And, and, um, you know, if that's what I'm psyched on, then that's precisely what I'm going to do. You know,
has that, you talked about last time that, you know, typically in your experience, when, when things hadn't gone right, it was because, you know, you, you said it, you said it better than I'm going to say it, but you said it, you know, it had to do with forcing it to an extent or, you know, there was, there was something, there was an expectation, there was, uh, uh, a desire, something out of place and you kind of, and you kind of, you kind of force it. You're not, you, you weren't necessarily, and I think this is correct for all of us. I mean, this is something that we all kind of understand when you're playing in the risky realm. You know, we have that voice. We have that, I don't know about this one today. Um, have you noticed a market change in how, you accept that into what you're doing since Dean and Graham and Sean, is that like, you talked about it right then, maybe you've already answered this, but have you, have you noticed that it's changed?
Like, you know, it sounds like you're being maybe more conservative and smarter, but, but is there, have you noticed any difference? Like, uh, yeah, I wouldn't say,
I wouldn't say I'm more conservative or smarter, but I would say that, um, I would say that, that, you know, it's funny that, that what you're talking about, it can't, it can't come in the form of, of, um, a voice or, uh, you know, this, this sort of level of intuition or something, but it also can come from just being comfortable from, from being overly comfortable from, I find that like, like for instance, my buddy Neil and I were talking about this one time, if someone was to do a wingsuit base jump or fly a paraglider or a hang glider, imagine, you know, 2000 years ago, and someone throughout any culture in the world was trying to, uh, do a transitionary vision quest to grow from a juvenile to adult.
And in that vision quest, they did that. They, they ran off a mountain and flew away. They literally, you would only need to do that one time in your life to transform to something different than you were before. Right. And yet we do it all the time. We do it every day to the point where, you know, in Europe you might do eight or nine jumps in a day and there's, you know, anybody who's done that, uh, would agree with me that, you know, the way you feel after jump 60 on a two week trip is not the same relative to the risk and to the, uh, fear than it was at the beginning of the trip, you know, and, uh, you know, the, the way you feel at the end of the trip is relative to the beginning of the trip is not the same. And so what, what I would say is, is that I try and maybe stay a little bit more open to that.
And I, I recognize, from seeing the aftermath that it's no single jump is, is worth it. Jumping is worth it, but no single jump is worth it. So, um, you know, I, I really need to want to do it. And all of the, the, uh, elements that would sort of lead to the, I, the expectation that the jump would be successful. It has to point that way for me to, to, you know, to be psyched to do it. And, um, and then when it does, you know, I feel really good about it. I release all of that apprehension, all of that anxiety. Uh, and, and that's usually at the time where I'm, I'm hooking in, clipping in or putting, zipping up, you know, zipping up my wingsuit. And, uh, when, when, when that decision's made, all of that goes away.
And now you're, you're here now you're in the present. And the only thing that matters is now, and then now, and now, you know, and, and nothing before nothing later matters. And, and so, um, that's a special place to live, you know, and, uh, and, uh, you know, do I, do I listen to that voice? Well, yeah, hopefully by then that, that voice has already spoken to me and I wouldn't be there if it was pointing the other direction, you know? So, uh, you know, I just try and stay as in tune to myself as possible and keep it completely, you know, detached from group think or other people that to me is super important. It's such a personal issue, the, the, the issue of risk and risk management, it's, you're the only one that's going to pay the consequences.
And, and I mean that in an immediate sense, obviously the people who love you will pay the price. If you, if you fuck up, you fuck up, you're not going to carry, you're going to be dead, but everybody else has to pay that price. But what I'm saying is, is that relative to your ego's, uh, job to keep yourself alive, the only one that's going to be dead, if you make a mistake is you in the things that we enjoy doing. So for me, I recognize that and make my own decisions. And I think that's a really important thing. And I take what other people say and what other people do as factors of information, similar to watching a bird climb or trees move or clouds form. It's just an, it's just more elements to pay attention to and relative to the decision that I'm going to make. But I try and keep that decision personal and, uh, and relative to me.
And, um, you know, when you let go of, when I let go of my, my ego and ambition and expectation in myself, then a decision becomes more pure. And, um, and I feel okay about it, whether the answer is yes or no, I'm okay with it. You know, I don't mind walking down and I'm okay with jumping, even if it's a, even if it's a sporty jump, even if there's risk involved, even if it's big air, uh, if I feel good about it and, and I've made that decision and that decision is, is, is only personally relative, then I'm that then, then I'm okay with it. You know,
Hansa told me, um, after the last race, that he, I think he did the X house five times and he flies with a photo of his, he just actually had his third, but at the time I think it was the two, uh, he flew with a photo of his kids on his flight deck. Um, I'd love to hear your thoughts on, on how you, uh, manage risk in relation to your own daughter. Because I think what I hear from a lot of parents is that once they have kids, you know, if they're, I'm thinking of like Chris Santacroce, you know, really backed off after he had children and not saying right or wrong, I'm not putting any judgment on any of this. Um, I just, I'm just curious to hear how, because you kept, you've kept the needle pretty high.
Yeah. Yeah. Well,
do you, I don't know, talk about that.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I, I don't have any judgment for any parent or person for that matter, you know, in relation to their own, uh, ability to manage their, their risk. I think, like I said before, it's a personal issue. And I, I think, um, I get, you know, it's funny, there's a mix, right? I get people who are inspired by it and other people who are really sort of confused by it. And at times even angry about it, the fact that I would continue doing things that have a, a very high level of consequence as a father. And, you know, I didn't want to die before I had a kid. And, and I, I certainly don't want to die, um, every bit as much, if not more after having my, my kiddo in my life, because, um, she, like my, my partner are the most amazing elements of my life.
Um, and I, you know, I, I, it's, it's a hard question to answer. Um, do I think of her? Do I think of Kara? Absolutely. Of course I do. But, um, I don't, I'm not winging it. I'm not going for it. You know, uh, no, I, I would like to think that that's, that's sort of, um, in my own terms, the difference for, and I mean, only relative to myself, the difference between me being, you know, uh, just sort of like, like hoping for the best and, and being a professional. And that's that nothing that I do, even if it doesn't, especially if it involves a high level of consequence is ever like, well, I hope this goes well. You know, if, if I don't believe with a hundred percent certainty, well, as close to a hundred percent as you can get, which is, you know, never a hundred percent.
Right. But, but with as much certainty as I possibly can, if I don't believe that what I'm doing is sustainable and, you know, something that I can achieve because of the, the, the work that I've done and because of how I prepared to earn the right to be there, then I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't, you know, like when people see a video of someone jumping off a cliff, wearing a wingsuit or whatever, looping a hang glider or doing acro and a paraglider or whatever, people see that and they think, Oh God, that, that guy's shit house crazy, you know? But the reality is, is that that person, what that, what the, what the viewers can't see is the hours and hours and hours and hours and hours of, um, repetitive practice that, that allowed that person to be doing that thing in a way that was responsible.
And, um, you know, I'm not saying that everything I've seen on YouTube is responsible by any means, but, but I try and keep, I try and keep my own actions within that, that category. If, if I, if I wasn't feeling, uh, very secure about my decision, I would not be standing with my toes hanging over the lip of a cliff. And, um, and, you know, I, I mean, why would you, how fun is, it's, I can't even imagine why someone would want to do that. You know, that certainly finding fun in, uh, going for it and hoping for the best when the consequences, uh, being maimed or, or dying, is, it's that, that isn't going to last very long. That is far from sustainable.
And, um, you know, I'm out there to have fun. I'm out there to, to experience life, to, to experience the beauty that this life has to offer in as many, you know, wild and, uh, outside of my perspective ways. So to, um, you know, I, I guess I, I fit it into that category. I, my, my kid means everything to me. I would believe my life would be the same. I would believe my life would be the same. I would happily give my life for that kid any day of the week. And I would defend her with my life any day of the week. And does that mean that I need to give up who I am and the things that I love to do? And especially if those things allow me to give the best of myself back to her when we do, uh, spend time together, you know, no way.
I mean, uh, I ask her, you know, ask her if she would want me to quit the things that I love doing. I mean, I'm, I can't imagine having a better relationship with her. And, and a lot of that is because of, um, the perspective gained, you know, uh, I, I think, um, I think sacrificing your entire life so that your kids can have the illusion of security is, is the wrong way to go. And instead showing my daughter that it's okay to follow your passion. It's okay to not know the answers. It's okay to be scared. It's okay to say no to yourself and it's okay to walk down and it's okay to fail. And it's okay to, you know, it's okay to succeed and it's okay to have people not agree with you and to, uh, think what you're doing is stupid.
And it's okay to, to, to chase dreams that seem completely absurd to everybody else. All of that is totally okay. As long as your motivations are pure and you're being true to yourself. And she thinks that way. And she has a voice in our house and she has our, a full value respect from her mom and I. And, um, and you know, I, I think, um, she's growing up. To be quite the little, the little human and, um, um, I couldn't be more proud of her. So, you know, I guess, uh, like I said, it's, it's a personal thing. I, I certainly don't fault anybody else for changing their lifestyle because they feel a responsibility to, to sticking around for their kids. And, and I feel that I would just say that I feel that exact same responsibility and every bit as much weight, you know, but I, I, I'm just, I, I feel too much benefit from, um, living life actually how I feel is true to myself to, uh, to quit doing it.
If that makes any sense.
That, that makes perfect sense. I've got the hugest smile on my face. Amen, brother. That was awesome. And I, I, I just, I couldn't agree with you more. And I celebrate, uh, as always how you live and how you're raising your kid and how you're, uh, you just, I love how you attack this wonderful thing. We all, we all love a called life. Uh, so, Wow. That was, uh, that was fantastic. Thank you so much. Um, Jeff, is there anything else we should, we should talk about? Cause I feel like, uh, that was a really nice place to end, but I, I never liked to hang up the phone with you. So if you have other things you want to talk about, let's do it.
No, man, that was, that was great. I mean, I, like I said, I, I couldn't be more grateful for the opportunity. It's, is, um, the, the community of pilots, uh, around the world have been, um, some of the most amazing people I've ever had the luck to meet. And, um, you know, to continue growing in this amazing sort of, uh, you know, sport or art, uh, and to, to be learning this, this new tool is it, man, like I said, I. I could not be more psyched on, on learning how to paraglide. So all the paraglider pilots out there that are listening, you know, I hope that I get to cross paths with you and share some airtime and, um, and, uh, you know, continue to learn and, and to see, uh, you know, life from, from that perspective.
And, and, um, yeah, thanks. Thanks for, for sitting down and talking with me, Gavin. I, as much as anybody, I hope to get a chance to share some sky with you and, and, uh, hopefully. Hopefully we'll, we'll go on an adventure sometime in the future sooner than later, eh?
Yeah. Like, like Cedar says, let's go chase some of that sky crack.
Yeah, no doubt. Uh, completely addicted. Yeah. And he's such a bad influence. It's great. I love it.
Yeah, totally. He is awesome. He is awesome. I know you guys have a lot of shared history together as well. So that's been, that's been really fun to see him, uh, chase it hard. Uh, that's, that's always fun to see anybody chase it hard. So.
Yeah. Him and, him and Matt are crushing it. Those guys are flying really well. It's cool.
Yeah. Yeah. It is very cool. Jeff, thank you so much. It's always an honor. Always a pleasure. And, uh, we'll, uh, let's see each other at Cloudbase soon.
That sounds great, man. Thanks again. It was a privilege. Awesome.
Well, I hope you enjoyed that. Always great, uh, to sit down with, uh, such an amazing character. I feel very, I feel a lot of gratitude to be able to spend time with Jeff. Um, all too infrequently, unfortunately. I wish I was, uh, I wish I got to spend more time with him, but fantastic to hear his thoughts on, uh, on flying around in the sky. Um, as always, all we ask for is a buck a show. If you've gotten something out of this or one of the previous episodes, uh, help support the show. We've got a small team here that's helping us out. And this, uh, as you can imagine, putting these things together, it takes a lot of time, uh, both from our guests and from, from us. So, uh, if you got something out of this, this is a listener supported podcast. Uh, you can contribute via PayPal or a new way we've got called Patreon, patreon.com forward slash podcast.
There's cloud-based mayhem where you can kind of set it and forget it and be rewarded for doing so. You can find those links on the cloud-based mayhem.com. Uh, if you do just to contribute through PayPal, what we do is what we ask for is, uh, don't just send us a buck every show, wait for a while, digest a whole bunch of shows and send us a little bit more because PayPal likes to take fees and I'd rather you not have to pay fees. And it, so it helps both of us out, uh, at both ends. So, uh, anyway, appreciate your support. Thank you so much. Uh, thanks for joining us and we'll see you on the next one. See you at cloud base. Cheers.