Hi there everybody, welcome to another episode of the Cloud Base Mayhem. Got a great show for you today, I'm on the road right now. Started in Vancouver a few days ago and I'm going to end in, well hopefully San Diego if we can get a venue here in a couple days. But just been showing north to known to some great audiences along the way. It's been really fun to see people light up and just kind of, the film's blown people's minds and that's really fun. It was a project we worked really hard on for a long time. And Cross Country Magazine, Ed Ewing and Hugh Miller are putting together another little short tour for me in the UK. So those of you who listen to the show and live in the UK, keep an eye on that on my Facebook page and Cross Country's Facebook page. And the Interwebs will be coming over there the weekend of the 8th of April for a few shows.
We're actually going to do a clinic up at Jocky Sanderson's Flight Park. A little day with me in the air and talking about vol biv. And the X-Alps and some of that stuff. So that should be really fun. One little bit of housekeeping. I have been hearing on the road and from a few of you in emails that we need to work on our sound levels. We know we're having that problem. When I do these interviews on the other end, people are on Skype and it can be just really tricky. Like if they move around or, anyway, we know we have that problem and we're working really hard on it. And I think we're going to solve it. I'm also going to be sending out microphones to future guests so they've got good mics on their end before we even do the podcast. So thank you for that feedback.
The other thing I just wanted to mention was that we take your comments and your suggestions for other podcast people to come on the show, other guests, very, very seriously. So please reach out. I try to get back personally to every single person that emails in. So if you've got a question or something that happens. Hasn't been answered on the podcast or a guest you really want to see on the show, yeah, for sure, reach out and let me know. Let's go ahead and get right into this one. In the last X-Alps, I got the opportunity to do some training with Nick Neynens, a Kiwi out of New Zealand. And he did really well in the race. Had a brutal start. I think he was first off the hill there at the Geisberg and was leading the punch out to the first waypoint at Dockstein.
And then he had a problem with his wing. So he top landed. And I think he was either last or way off the back at the end of the first day. And he crawled back and made some awesome moves and came in 10th. And he has a very untraditional style. I dig this guy's style. A lot of the X-Alps he did in jandals. For those of us in the States over here, sandals. I think like a pair of Crocs or something. Had a very untraditional approach to training. And by that I mean he just kind of tramps through the woods. But I don't think he had any real strict training regimen going into the race. He flies very creative lines. He's got a deep passionate love for his home country of New Zealand.
He's also a meteorologist. And he got into flying just because he loves spending time in the mountains. And he goes out and does some pretty neat things. I think he broke the record this year for distance or triangle distance in New Zealand. And he's back for more this time around in the X-Alps. Which I was kind of surprised at. I didn't think that was going to be kind of his thing. He seems to just enjoy flying and not really counting the numbers. And not racing. But he's back for another go at the X-Alps. And I thought it would be really fun to sit down with him. A friend of his, Tom Lyons, who he was doing some flying with in Australia, sent me an email a while back. I've had several people like Tom ask to get Nick on the show. Because he's just got a different approach.
So we get into some of those approaches. And how he views flying and safety. And he's flown all over the world. So he gives us some beta on where folks should go to do their first bowl bivs. I think you're going to really enjoy this. Nick's a fascinating character. And he's really creative in the air. I saw that before we flew in the X-Alps together. And then certainly during the race. I don't think we ever saw each other actually during the race. But he made some really, really incredible moves. To get back from where he was to where he ended up. So without further ado, please enjoy this conversation with Nick Naenitz.
Nick, gosh, it's awesome to have you on the show. And incredibly, I don't think I've seen you since the first day of the X-Alps. It's hard to imagine that you and I raced all the way across the spine of that. That entire mountain range. And never really saw each other. I saw you top land brilliantly on that first day. And got yourself in a pretty tough situation those first few days. And then, man, you came roaring back. Congratulations for that. And I'm sure we'll be talking about the X-Alps. But before we get into it, where are you? And what are you doing these days?
So I'm in Sydney. I've just moved here. And I've started my job as a meteorologist. Which I did training for last year in Melbourne. So, yeah, it's obviously something that's interesting to me as a paraglider pilot. And it's given me a chance to learn about it in more detail. So, yeah, I've been paragliding about ten years now. So I know a lot of the micrometeorology stuff from experience. But it's good to get another perspective. And I got that actually with flying with a sailplane pilot in New Zealand a few years ago. Which really helped me. It really improved my flying. But, yeah, this is doing it through mathematics and looking at a wider area. So that's been interesting.
Yeah, you know, I've got to read something to you. You know, Tom Lyons, I think a friend of yours, was the one that really reached out a few months ago. And he said, God, man, you've got to get Nick on the show. Which I've kind of wanted to do anyway just to get your perspectives. Because I know your approach to paragliding is much different, I think, than most. And we'll talk about that. But in his email, and this is going to make you blush. I know you're a very humble character. But that dude can send it and look as casual as a palm tree in pajamas while being as humble as the sand he walks on. He flies vol biv with nothing but his flip flops and a kilogram of cheese. He doesn't eat the cheese. Just ages it. Some say he can photosynthesize. Others say he was raised by wild yet really relaxed and true to themselves albatross.
He runs a catch and release program. He runs a catch and release program for thermals that have run away from home.
I just loved that. So your background and your passion for meteorology must help you catch these thermals that have run away from home.
Yeah, I didn't know you were so creative. Yeah, we shared a drive or two to Bright. So I got a chance to chat with him on those long Australian drives.
Yeah, trying to miss the kangaroos.
Yeah. About being humble. That's before the XLs. Now I'm pretty full of myself. Totally changed myself.
Yeah, it does that a little bit, doesn't it?
I think I need another XLs to put me back in my place.
There you go. Yeah, exactly. I'm sure it gives us a little bit of everything. Well, we're going to have that opportunity here in a few months. And what I'd love to talk about, you know, for those who don't know much of your history, you know, we were talking before we hit the record here that you got into flying to really explore the mountains in New Zealand. Can you kind of expand on that and how that all, what was the impetus?
Yeah, so like when I was in Switzerland walking through the Alps with Dad when I was a young teenager, we saw paragliders. But I don't remember like kind of what I thought about it at that point. And I remember even climbing up Mount Earnslaw in New Zealand years and years ago. I was probably in my late teens then. We saw this German guy with a huge backpack coming down the mountain. And yeah, he had a paraglider with him. And I'm not sure if it even clicked then. And reading Dad's diary from years ago, he wrote about seeing paragliders in Nelson in New Zealand and thinking that it would be a great thing and should take it up one day. But yeah, I don't know what I thought about it at those points. But back in 2006,
I thought, you know, I've done a lot of backcountry hiking. Or we call it tramping in New Zealand. And some of the bush there is pretty rough going. Like one time I spent half an hour going 30 meters kind of like swimming upwards through the bush. So to be able to fly over the bush and cut out like a day of hard labor with a really nice glide is kind of the idea that got me into it. And so I had a look on the internet. And I saw that these paragliders only weigh like five or six kilos. I almost couldn't believe it. So I rang up the local instructor in southeast Queensland and went down on my motorbike a couple of hours from where I was living or an hour and a half.
Had a chat to him for I think it was most of the morning. And basically decided to do it then. I learned and basically I just jumped in both feet. I didn't really need to try it out. I sort of knew that I'd do it. So I just signed up for the course, bought gear and started flying.
And did you, you know, just from knowing you and flying with you before, you know, you and I did a little bit of training together before the X-Alps. And then just watching, you know, I'm working on this book about the experience there. And it was really fun after the race to go back through and watch all of us, you know, because you could kind of replay the whole thing. You made some really brilliant moves. But I gather that your real passion is kind of vol biv. It's not necessarily competition. Is that correct? Am I right there?
Yeah, for sure. I think I'd like competitions if I did better in them.
Yeah. No, vol biv, the great thing about vol biv is that like for me it's kind of being able to get the most out of the day. And when you're in a competition, you're kind of sitting on a hillside. And you're only flying in that peak time of the day like the, you know, early or mid-afternoon when the thermals are strong enough. And all this kind of thing. But some of my best and most memorable flights have been really late in the evening or just early morning glides. And yeah, like some days they're not flyable generally. But there are periods where you can fly here and there. So what's great about vol biv is that you sort of got sunrise to sunset or dawn to dusk to do your flying rather than that just shorter afternoon period.
And the other thing is that I'd much rather be hiking through the mountains with the wing not being able to fly. Than sitting on a hill talking to depressed paraglider pilots about when the weather's going to change. So yeah.
Very, very good point. And you live in a part of the world, I know New Zealand well. I've spent a lot of time down there. The weather changes radically fast like it did on us in Alaska. Yeah, you're right. And to stay sane, I think you've got to grab it when you can.
Yeah, for sure. And sometimes a five-minute flight is all the fix you need, you know. And it just. With cross country, we kind of reduce flying to a number sometimes, how many Ks you flew. And if you're flying the same kind of route and you don't go as far, then it's, yeah, it's maybe hard to keep upbeat about it. But when you're doing vol biv and you just have a short flight off a mountain, it just, like it's a memory that you'll never forget kind of thing. So, yeah.
I think some of those short flights like that were what was, for me, there were a lot of special things about the ex-Alps. But those short flights were really. Boy, they can be neat. You just get these tiny little whiffs of perfection. And even if they're really short, they just, they're like the saving grace of that race, isn't it? I mean, they just, they reset everything and they make you, they let you forget your pain and the hurts. And they're really special.
Yeah, totally. When you were saying that, it just reminded me of my first, like, ex-event, which was the ex-Berg organized by one of the previous ex-Alps competitors. Pierre from South Africa. And that was through the Drakensberg. And it was six days. And it was quite amazing. Like, I flew every day, several flights every day. Out of all my flights, I never flew more than 10Ks. So, you'd think that that would be a terrible comp if you can't even fly 10Ks. But actually, the flights were really amazing. They made a huge difference. And it also was like an amazing adventure. Like, I just. At the end of it, I thought, that's amazing. I want to do something like that again.
Nick, your kind of passion for Vol Biv is, I think you and I share a lot of that. My first big one that I did across the Sierras with Nick Greece and those guys, at the end of it, I was just super ecstatic one day. We weren't actually quite done. And I was interviewing Nick. And I was saying, you know, don't you think everybody should be doing this? And he was like, dude, are you fucking crazy? No. It's like, because he was talking about the risks. You know, because we were flying. I guess it's kind of, you know, you're flying at the upper limit of what paragliders can do at times. You know what I mean? Of course, you can pick your days and that kind of thing. But I, you know, knowing you and what you're willing to fly in and what we were all flying in in the X-Alps, how would you recommend people that haven't done any Vol Biv, you know, what's the progression there?
What's the, you know, when you think back about how you got into it? You know, because in the beginning, you're. You're. It's demanding. You're, you're top landing. You're, you're landing in really tight spots. You're often landing in conditions that are not ideal. Like you're talking about. It's not the middle of the day competition type flying where it's perfect. It's, you know, it's between storm systems. It's in heavy wind. How, how would you recommend people, you know, stick their toe in the
water? Yeah. Well, I remember when I first let my paragliding instructor feel high. I said, I went down and had a chat with him months before I started. Well, I signed up for the course. And I alluded to him that I wanted to go flying in the mountains in New Zealand. And would it be possible? And he basically said, first, you got to learn how to fly.
Very stern instructor and known for scaring his students at times. But that was probably good for me, you know? So, yeah, I did get to New Zealand six months after, you know, first signing up for the course. And. Yeah. It was pretty intense that first summer. It was amazing. Like, I still remember the flights, of course. Yeah. I guess that first few years of flying, I was not doing amazing cross countries, but I was learning a lot of the other skills that you need in the mountains, like safe launches, safe landings, that heaps of ground handling and reading the meteorology, like, you know, reading the sky or figuring out what's going on. Like, I've always, like before meteorology, before doing the course last year, I started still knew a lot about meteorology from reading and kind of figuring everything out through physics, like it's all physics, right?
So trying to understand things and figuring it all out and then getting a chance to test those things over and over again. But in terms of cross countries, wasn't doing anything amazing. And I remember thinking that probably it would have been beneficial to do more coastal flying, actually. And when I was learning, because you get a lot better value in terms of time in the air and time on the wing, time to figure out how to control the wing. Because at the start, when you learn, there's a lot of different things to think about and you want to have as many of them completely automatic as possible. And we'd spend all day, like, trying to go to an inland site and sometimes you don't even fly at all. I remember going to a site in Southeast Queensland and there was five top pilots there and we all sat on the hill all day.
Because even the good guys get the conditions wrong sometimes. But if you're on the coast, you know, you can fly and if you bomb out, you walk up the hill, it takes two minutes. So it's a better way to get into it. But yeah, I flew the same school wing, the old Bolero Plus, that I learnt on for two years. So a really long time. And in that time, I'd done Vol Bivs in New Zealand and the Alps. Like, I wasn't going very far, but I was learning all those other skills. And yeah, I guess that's it. I guess that's one of the things that helped me progress is to get a new wing. But basically, I was more focused on travelling and learning rather than buying gear and all that kind of stuff.
Yeah. You mentioned in your blog post, which I invite the listeners to go check out. It's called sharemyjoys.wordpress.com. There's some really good writing there. And your blog post about the training for the 2015 X-Alps has some really fascinating stuff in it. And I think one of the things that jumps out, at least to me, is when you're talking about training, you know, I think of training for the X-Alps as the physical. Of course, way more important is the flying side. But you really elaborate on the value of flying without instruments, the value of ground handling, the value of learning how to land in a tight spot. You mentioned before we started that you spent a couple of weeks on the ground.
You took a couple of years off. You took a couple of years off and just did as much flying as you could. When did it kind of occur to you that the X-Alps was a possibility?
Yeah. So before I took that two years off, I would say my skills, aside from cross country, were very good. I mean, I've done obviously cross country, but nothing spectacular. Like in New Zealand, I was flying under 50Ks most of the time.
And in that two years, I really improved my cross country skills. Probably partly to do with the amazing wing, which is, you know, the best wing in the world for that kind of thing. The first event I did was the X-Berg, which was in the Drakensberg in South Africa, as I mentioned before. And that was basically like a convenient thing because I had a mate in Cape Town who I stayed with for part of the month. And later on, there was that event. So it just tied in with my plans pretty well. And it was a good chance to go and see the place when it's semi-organized. Like any competition. But yeah, this was an XL style competition.
And yeah, it was just amazing fun. So I put together all my skills and there was something new. It was like a defined purpose. So sometimes I find involved with that I'm not exactly sure what I'm trying to do. And sometimes decision making, like should you take off or should you keep your height or should you have a meal or should you just keep walking? It's kind of hard to do. But if you've got a set goal in mind to get to the other end, then it kind of means it's easier in terms of decision making. You've just got to keep going. There's still lots of decisions to make, but at least it takes some of that away. So yeah, that was really fun. And I found that I think it was the first or second night I was walking up a road in the dark.
And I thought, actually, I quite enjoy this. I never thought I'd enjoy walking on the road. But maybe. Maybe something like the X-Alps would be fun after all. So I didn't commit in my head to doing the X-Alps at that point, but I did straight away sign up for the X-Pyr as soon as I finished the race. And one of the other guys who was in that race signed up for the X-Pyr, but he had to pull out. So he told me who to contact and I got accepted. And the X-Pyr was amazing as well. So after the X-Pyr, I thought, well, maybe it is possible to have fun in a race like the X-Alps. After all, because I had heard, I mean, I've obviously followed the X-Alps before, and you do see a lot of people that seem like they're struggling a bit. I mean, Chrigel seems like he's having an amazing time, but some of the other guys, they seem like they're really going through it with blisters and sore legs and all those kind of things.
And I have to say, it seemed like at least, unless you were just faking it, your approach in terms of the lead up, I think was quite untraditional. Do you want to share? Thoughts on that?
Well, yeah. Yeah, I would say that, yeah, so when I first got accepted back in November, seven months before the race, I thought, I'll sign up for all these endurance events and all this kind of thing. And then after a couple of months, I thought, nah, nah, I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing. And I remember talking to Ferdy, the Dutch X-Alps guy, and I just asked him, I sent him a message and said, what's the story like? What do I need to do for X-Alps? And he wrote back saying, if you're like an average Kiwi, you'll be fit enough. Just go fly 200 Ks in New Zealand. I'm like, hmm, OK, fair enough. And pretty much ran with that.
Yeah, I think that's his approach. And he does pretty well every time, doesn't he?
Yeah, he's pretty consistent. Yeah. I've been lucky enough that I've been spending most of my life doing tramping trips on and off here and there in my holidays and whatever. So I've got a lot of good fitness from that. And I've seen a lot of the guys in the X-Alps when I was following years before I did it myself. And I was talking to my neighbor, Mark, the farmer in New Zealand, who was looking at the X-Alps as well. And he's going, it looks like a lot of these guys have never really gone for a walk before. So it's not like I've gone in cold. It's just I haven't had a structured training program. And basically, my training has been tramping. So when you're tramping, it's kind of a lot of time it's sort of off the track. But I guess I don't know if that helps at all.
But there's a lot of decision making involved when you're in the hills in New Zealand. So you've got to have a big picture. You can't just follow the signs kind of thing. So I think that helps a lot. You've got to be able to read a map. You've got to manage your body, basically. And I've always had the attitude of... Me and my body are on the same team. There's no need to break through any pain barriers or anything. We're actually working on this together. So I try to listen to my body. And on the other hand, my body's pretty patient with me as well.
So in the lead up to the last one, you kind of had this two years off. And I understand now you've got this full-time job. Is your approach going into this one any different? Or desires, goals? Is the X-Alps just purely you just want to have fun?
Yeah, so having fun was kind of the goal last time. But last time I had it in my head that this might be the only chance I've got. So I probably should think about doing everything the right way and not regretting it later on. And yeah, Louis was an amazing supporter.
He put a lot of effort into it. And he was pretty thorough. And it was a pretty professional approach that we had. But after the X-Alps, I went to South America.
And sometimes I don't know how I managed to travel at all.
So totally disorganized, I'd just like get out of the bus. I would have had a look at the map, but I've got like a map of, you know, the Andes, which is not a lot of detail in there. And I'll just think, oh, I could probably fly from there. And then I have a look at my Oryx maps on my phone and see if I can walk from a road to a launch. And then I just go to some random place and I'll climb up and fly. And sometimes it worked and it was amazing. And that's kind of what I'm going for this time is where you invest even less into it. And you can still sometimes manage to get an amazing payoff. And it kind of feels like you're getting something for nothing. Like for me, paragliding is a sport where you kind of, it's a good sport for a tight ass. Like if you're a tight ass. Because you can.
Basically get high for free. So you can use nature's energy to your advantage. And it's a sport where you can carry everything on your backpack. You're not reliant on anyone. You don't need to get a helicopter to launch or you can just go out on your own. So that's one of the beauties of the sport. So to be able to invest nothing into it, but like just jump out of a bus. And if it doesn't work, get back in the bus. You haven't lost anything. That's really attractive to me. So that's kind of. What I'm going for. This X helps. I'm still going to make sure that I am prepared enough to have a good time. But I don't need to structure it so much. And as I said, I'm quite full of myself. So I think I can pull it off. But we'll see.
And then will Louie be your supporter again? Louie is probably going to be lots of help. But I'm thinking of making it a much smaller event and just getting my family involved actually. And in a way, like it's good to have people. People who aren't too involved just so they can relax. Because I think the most dangerous part of the X helps is actually the driving. I'm sure there's been a lot of near misses with a lot of the supporters just because they're so fatigued and distracted by the tracking and everything else that's going on. And it's easy to lose track of the fact that you're on a dangerous road. So, yeah, that's kind of like one of my biggest worries.
And I think it's important for the supporters to make sure they put themselves first and support you as a secondary thing. Because if they can't, you know, if they're struggling to stay awake or they're running out of juice or whatever, then they're not going to be much help to anyone.
Yeah, it's really intense on them. They're truly the unsung heroes, isn't it? That's a tough go. For sure. So one of the things that I've been kind of battling with going into this one is I had shoulder surgery in October. So I haven't, you know. I had all these flying plans this winter in Colombia and Mexico and Brazil and stuff that I canceled because of the shoulder surgery. And I'm just now being able to start to fly again. It sounds like you're in a similar boat but not because of an injury but because of your job. Is there any – are you worried at all about not having as much time under your belt as you did last time? Because I know last time you said you had basically two years off and you were flying a ton.
Yeah, so that is a big difference for sure. I remember a mate that I had. Well, I still have in southeast Queensland complaining about not being current and all that kind of thing. So I was thinking about that. I spent a year in Antarctica. And when I came back, I got that – my new wing that I'd never flown a D before. I jumped on a D and just got straight into it. And I thought I'd blow this currency thing out of the water. And, yeah, I think like obviously it's mostly in your head paragliding. So, yeah, I've tested that theory again by hardly flying at all last year. And then I still had a reasonable summer in New Zealand. I mean the problem was there was plenty of wind. But I think when I flew, I flew quite well. So I don't think it really matters so much that I haven't flown as long as you think it doesn't matter.
It's like the elephant, Dumbo flying. You know the story. Of course. Yeah. I like that.
Just trick yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned earlier the best wing in the world. What wing are you flying? Are you on the LM-5?
Yeah. So that was at the time like the wing that dominated the X-Alps. So I watched the X-Alps from Antarctica and thought, yeah, that kind of suits me because it's a wing that's designed for conditions. And, yeah, it's for the type of flying that I want to be doing. So I kind of stepped up after a year of not flying. But I think it made sense. Like I was going to get a lot of time pretty quick anyway. So, yeah.
And so will you be on that or the six, I guess, in this race?
Oh, gosh. I've got no idea what's going on this time. You'd think it would be an easier decision. Like last time we kind of left it a bit late and we didn't get the wing until just before the event. So I don't really want that to happen again. But, yeah, I've got to figure that out soon. So, yeah, at the moment I've been trying to get my computer running and sort out some other stuff.
Like I'm a little bit disorganized. But that's on the list of things to figure out for sure.
You mentioned in your blog the importance of ground handling.
How do you approach that? And do you still – is that still a big part of your kind of routine?
So when we learned that was emphasized that we had to ground handle a lot,
one of the places I really got to ground handle a lot was a little site an hour north of Brisbane called The Playground where it's kind of really small and friendly and there's loads of places you can land. And sometimes I'd take off and land 30 seconds later like on the launch. And you could just – you know, there's a sea breeze in the afternoon and just little thermals and you could just muck around. And often I would have more fun actually ground handling than flying. Like it's really quite fun. So, yeah, I ground handled my mate's wing the other day down at the beach just – well, on the grass to get the sand out. So, yeah, it is really fun like just manipulating it to get exactly what you want. But actually since getting the LM5, which is a lightweight wing, I haven't really done any ground handling apart from like naturally when I'm pulling the wing up to launch.
So I don't actually go out and practice it anymore, but it's still like I've still got it. The reason I don't practice it is because I don't want to wear out the wing, but I'm actually getting an ENZO soon. So that might be fun to ground handle. Yeah, I do love ground handling. And again, it's one of those things that can be a lot better value than flying if you're spending hours to drive to a site sitting on the hill when it's too windy and then driving home again. You might be better off just going to the park and ground handling for a couple of hours.
When you think about flying these days, given the job that you have now, what's kind of – I mean obviously the X-Alps are in your future. But what has you kind of excited? Yeah. What has you excited about flying or what are you thinking about doing either between now and the X-Alps and after? Like reading your blog, you spent some time in the Indian Himalaya. You did some really cool flying, which I want to ask you about, and the Caucasus because that's been kind of on my radar for a while, South America. You've been to a lot of really neat places to fly. Is that still – those kind of things still right up there for you or is it more your job right now?
Yeah, for sure. There's still loads of places to go to and a lot of places that you'd think that you'd be back in a couple of years but it takes a lot longer. Like India, for example, I revisited but it took me, I don't know, eight years or something to get back there. But yeah, definitely keen to do a lot more stuff. But yeah, I am focusing on the job at the moment. That two years was a bit of a sort of break to get it out of my system. Yeah, it was great fun. But part of the idea was to go to places that are a little bit less accessible and that you need to spend a bit longer to go to. So yeah, the biggest – I remember the first time I went to South America, which was just before I learned to fly.
You know, it's a really big continent and it takes a long time to get around. And I thought this is all pretty cool. But in terms of nature, we've pretty much got it all in New Zealand and it's so close. And yeah, really, New Zealand is the place that's got me most excited. I'm excited about flying lately. Like all last year, I was planning flights, new lines to do in New Zealand in the summer. And even now, I'm thinking of a sneaky little trip next month. So it's kind of the most accessible place for me where I live to go and fly. But there's definitely a lot of places to explore around the world as well. But kind of that's on the back burner for now. I've still got to negotiate getting leave for Excels from work. So –
Better chill out for a while.
Well, the Caucasus, what was the mission there and how did it all go down?
So a mate who cycled from London back to Australia with his partner, he recommended two places for me to go. One was Georgia and the other one was Kyrgyzstan. I went to both. And Georgia was quite convenient for me. Because someone, basically the boyfriend of an ex-flat mate that I contacted on Facebook, is working there with the Red Cross in Tbilisi. So he said, yeah, come around. You can stay at my place as long as you like. So in true style, I took him up on his offer whether he meant it or not. And yeah, spent basically the month in Tbilisi and went off to do the side trips here and there. I went there in May and the weather was really unstable.
Like you'd get storms. And then the same day. You'd get more storms and more storms. It was crazy. But there was enough good weather in there for me to do some great trips. And you don't need much time with paragliding. A few hours here and there if you're in the right place can give you a pretty awesome experience that makes it worthwhile sitting around for a few days. So yeah, I had some great flights in Spinetti in the kind of west which is like a little bit more humid than the east. And it basically looks the same as Switzerland. Big glaciers, green grass, and yeah, wild place to fly. You can see Mount Elbrus in the distance as you flew along.
Yeah, a few other flights near Kazbegi which is more accessible to the capital.
Maybe give me a list if someone listening to the show decided, yeah, okay, I want to do some Volpiv. Could you give a little five-pointer list of where you would start? And maybe where you would end? For
me, like the Alps is a pretty good place. Like it's very convenient with logistics. And if you're not really sure about things, it's kind of a good place to start because you've got lots of exit options. The Pyrenees is also quite good. There's loads of grassy landings everywhere as long as you're in the deep Pyrenees, not out in the desert out in the, you know, the Spanish side. Where it gets a bit thorny and dry. Yeah, Kyrgyzstan was an amazing place. But you really got to be pretty confident by the time you get there. Like it was pretty wild conditions. I mean, it's different at different times of year, I assume. But yeah, some pretty rough air, I'd say.
But there's landings everywhere. And it's amazing culturally. New Zealand is super remote. But if you know where you're going, you can have some great trips there. You've also got problems with the weather. But the great thing about New Zealand is there's big wide open valleys. So even if there's a bit of wind around, there's often plenty of landing options. The Himalaya, pretty tricky in terms of landings. I guess it depends when you go. We were kind of stuck pretty low most of the time. In the spring, there was a lot of moisture around and a lot of storms. And we couldn't get super high. South America, that place is wild. The air is crazy. In the Andes, because it's so dry and the air is so thin.
And the sun is tropical. That place is... I actually had my brake line unsheathed because the air was so active that I had worn it through in South America. Big, strong climbs. Yeah. Oh, man. Sounds like home. It's so crazy. It goes from... Once I landed before midday, because it was just like, oh, this is too much for me. This is too hardcore. I was getting sucked up like crazy. And then... Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. Good place.
Yeah. I don't know. Where else would you go?
I think you just... You ticked a lot of them right there. I mean, where I fly at home is probably pretty similar to the Andes. It's not a super kind place to send people for their first full bib because you're fighting a couple of things. One is... You get really high base. We fly with oxygen, so that's kind of hard to top up on oxygen when you're flying full bib. And then the thermals are incredibly strong and there's quite a lack of... We're in the desert, so there's a lack of water. If you go in the spring, there's tons of lakes and streams and stuff. But if you go in the fall when it's more reliable or even in the summer, then water becomes an issue.
It won't be as much of an issue this year because we're having to... It's a massive snow year, so this will be an interesting season. But switching gears here a little bit, but accidents, have you had any or had any experience with injuries or silly stuff?
Yeah. After six months of flying in India, I racked up more hours than I had in the previous six months in just a couple of weeks, which was great. But yeah, I was trying to push myself a little bit with the cross country. But I think the actual problem was lack of confidence. So basically, I freaked out about landing down below because I was hearing them talk about power lines everywhere. And I tried to land on this slope landing, like a little slot in between the trees. And I just kind of flew in and hit the ground pretty hard with my feet. And I think I would have broken my back probably four times. If I hadn't had the really strong message from my instructor to keep your landing gear out when you're anywhere near the ground.
So yeah, I came out of that with a bruised heel and I was still able to sort of hobble off, launch the next day and fly. So that was my worst injury for a while. But I managed to do the same thing again last year on the coast. Just sort of got a little bit low with the ocean below and a few cliffs and I freaked out. And went for the same thing, a bit of a dodgy face landing. And really the problem was I think that I didn't round out at the end. And if I was completely relaxed, I think I would have done a better landing. But I just sort of plowed it in because I was not really confident about where I was at. So yeah, they're the injuries that I've had.
So both of them, I was just hobbling around for a bit, but nothing serious. But the other close calls I've had have been crashing into cables in the Alps. And that's one of the things I'm most worried about over there for sure. Gosh, I did this.
I went over there this summer right after Alaska. I went over there just to do some training with Bruce and Ben. And I don't think I realized it until I got there. But I think Alaska took a lot more out of me than I realized. I think I was on such a high from completing it that I maybe was feeling the kind of adrenaline we do in the ex-Alps. And so I went over to Europe all happy Larry. And I got in the air and I just wasn't feeling it. You know how when you're not there and the conditions were not that terrible. I mean, they weren't great. It was windy and it was demanding, but nothing like some of the days in the ex-Alps where I always felt like I had it. This was a time where I felt like I didn't.
And I ended up in a place at the end of one day where I literally, three or four times, right one after another, it was the kind of thing where I went over a cable that I didn't see with six inches of clearance. And then went under a cable that I didn't see with six inches of clearance. And really high, big cables where the outcome would have been horrible. And I never even saw them. You train yourself to look for that kind of stuff. But it was like, I don't know if it was because I was tired. But yeah, that stuff is scary.
Super scary. And I think some of them are really impossible to see. Yeah, I do too. If they've got a pole at the top or the bottom, you can look at that and infer that there might be a cable. But some of them just come straight out of the ground. They have hay being brought down from paddocks. And there's some trees on the top of the cliff. And it just comes straight off the ground level. There's no indication at all.
So it's pretty scary. Those cables that come down, they're not being used for living. They're
not lifts
or anything. They're just the ones that are just almost like hanging down. I was doing a flight near Interlochen one time, very close to airspace. So I was trying to kind of hug the terrain. Same thing. Note to listeners, if you are flying around cables, one hint is to make sure you don't have polarized sunglasses on. I know I've been told that that makes it a lot worse. But I always fly with polarized sunglasses. So maybe I need to take those off. Me too. I think that's not a good idea. Yeah. I've been told that they make them almost invisible.
They take the gear out, don't they? Yeah, right. They flash the seat going up and down the wire. Exactly. Yeah.
Nick, when I got done, when we got to Monaco, I've talked about this a few times. But, you know, when we were sitting around that night in the campground with, I think, you know, Aaron Dergaard. He was there. And Paul Gusserbauer and Ferdi. And, you know, we were having some beers. And we were all in a very good mood, of course. But then we started telling the, you know, the scary stories. And it was a real, I think I was on such a high that I was there, I'd forgotten about that stuff. And I was surprised that everybody, I'd had a really bad situation going over the ski area near Vars, Vals, Vars, somewhere there, you know, southern France, kind of on that last leg where I was. Côte d 'Ivoire. Yeah, exactly. I was trying to, I was actually trying to get over one of the little.
Snowmaking ponds to just ditch it and save my life. I got caught in this terrific downdraft that I didn't realize I was in until too late. And I was, you know, on the backside of about a 60 kilometer an hour or more valley breeze. It was just really, really, anyway, bad position. So I was relating that story. And some of the other guys were relating some also really scary stories. Do you, did you have any in the race? And also, you know, how do you, how do you deal with that? How do you justify something like the X-Alps?
Probably helps having a really bad memory.
I
love it. Yeah.
There was one time where I was in some super crazy air. The first notable thing that happened to me in the X-Alps was when I was going backwards on full speed. But I thought that was pretty impressive. But that actually wasn't a problem because I just sort of pushed to try and get in front of a spur. And as I sank down, the wind picked up. But it was all smooth, sort of laminar kind of wind. And all I had to do was turn around and go back to the previous spur that I'd just been on, soar up. And then I was kind of out of the wind again. And I could get out of the wind that way. So sometimes people tell you when you're learning that if the conditions are too rough or strong or whatever, then go land.
But in the Alps, I've adapted that. In the X-Alps, I should say. Or if you're in some volatile situation because you do get led down the garden path with the mountains. All of a sudden, you're in a lot deeper and more serious situation than you meant to get into. But, yeah, I would say that if the conditions are too rough or strong, then don't land. Go fly somewhere else. So, yeah, that's the ideal. But, yeah, another time. Well, that's what happened the second time. Basically, it was really shady the day I rounded Mont Blanc.
So it was really like there was a layer of strata here in the morning, but it was quite unstable. But everything was shaded out. And I was sort of cruising around. I'd taken off near Berbier.
And I was kind of sinking out a little bit. And finally, the sun came out in the spur across the valley. And I'm like, yep, I'm going there. So I went there. And there was like my most favorite. My favorite thermal of the X-Alps. It was just awesome. It was like, why have I been dealing with these crap thermals up until now? It should have been more like this. It was just awesome. You're just going straight up. And after that, I crossed to a spur. And meanwhile, in the, is it the Rhône there? Yep. The Rhône is just on the
back side, just on the north side of Berbier there, the big one.
Yeah. Yeah. So there was blowing like hell in there. And a lot of the other guys were walking in that valley. And I crossed to this, I was sheltered in Berbier, but I crossed to the spur. And there was just some really weird air where all of a sudden it went whoop up and then whoop back down. And I thought, hmm, maybe this isn't the best place to hang around. And I think I sort of decided to leave. And then I just had this weird like weightlessness thing for a couple of seconds. And then I was looking down at the trees and going, I've got loads of clearance, but I think I'll get the hell out of here. And I did. And a few k's further on, it was fine and I kept flying. So yeah, that was kind of the two situations where the air was like really notably extreme. But I guess there's a lot of times where it was a bit rough.
But I guess that's one of my stronger points is that I am used to flying in, you know, non sort of competition type conditions. So that's something. That's something that I really enjoy is trying to figure out the non classic situations. And yeah, trying to figure out how to fly when there's a bit of wind. That's what's really interesting about vol biv and the XLs for me.
Kind of like being a fish swimming upstream, right? You're kind of hopping between when it's, you know, when you watching the replay, you were one of two, I think, that got out of there that day. I mean, everybody behind Ferdy and I. That, you know, we had that big day getting pretty much to almost a Chamonix. And everybody that flew from the Matterhorn back down into the Rhone just got totally stuffed. They didn't get out of there for a couple of days. Some of them. It was really windy in there, wasn't it? I think you and one other, the Spanish pilot, were the only ones that got out of there.
Yeah, it was definitely a good day. I was pretty happy about that. I didn't really expect to do it myself. And, yeah, I remember landing to get a drink of water once because I didn't have any water. And then having a feed and just sort of chilling out for a bit and then taking off and flying to the Chamonix Valley. I'm like, wow, that was good. So, yeah, it's not like I planned the whole thing, but just took it one step at a time. And, yeah, it worked out well.
Do you find that the X-Alps makes you do things that you wouldn't normally do?
Yeah, I had that impression from a lot of the pilots that they were pushing themselves to. To do things that they normally do.
But I think it wasn't really the case for me because Involve has come across a lot of those situations before. And the X-Alps, you kind of got everyone watching you like you couldn't be much safer in terms of support at least.
Well, you know, you've got first world infrastructure and no one's going to not know that something happened.
It was interesting listening to that. Listening to those stories. And I think it kind of put me back into a little more of a reality situation. Because, you know, when we finish something like that and we look back, you know, our minds as humans tend to remember the good much easier than the bad. And to me, the whole race was good. It was just I couldn't believe how fun it was. But I did forget a couple of those instances. And I like your attitude there was that, hey, you know, you're flying Vol Biv, that's what happens. And so you're kind of used to it. That's a very positive look on it. And I also felt like I never did anything differently than I normally would have done if I was just flying around.
But I guess what I'm asking is if you find that the race puts pressure on you in a way that does make it more risky. Sure. And if it does, if it's, is it worth, I mean, is it justifiable?
Sure. So I did think of something to say about this and then I forgot it on the way. But, yeah, when I think about risk in the XLs, I think it's true that I'm a little bit more accustomed to it because Vol Biv tends to get you in those situations. It's not to say I don't get scared. But, like, sometimes you get scared and you've just got to think. Like one of the things that I used to think of is. If I turn my Vario off, would I still be scared? Because the Vario sounds like it's going nuts. But really, if you turn it off, it's just like pretty relaxing. And the other thing is it might seem to me like the wing is going all over the place like crazy. But if someone was looking from the ground, is it actually that bad?
Like you're getting a tuck here and there. You're moving back and forth. But does it actually look that bad? And kind of objectify things that helps take the fear out of it. So in terms of risk, there's fear, which can be subjective. And then there's risk, which is a bit more objective. But, of course, your feelings make a big difference to the actual risk because it's all about decision making and confidence. And if you aren't in the right headspace, you're going to be increasing the risk a lot. So sometimes when you're in a pilot, you've got to. Just deal with things the best way you can and kind of be less emotional about it and more just doing the best in terms of inputs to your wing and decision making, that kind of thing.
But, yeah, when I think about risk in terms of people taking more risk for the X-Alps, I think, yeah, I'm fairly used to it. So I quite enjoy it. Generally, I still get scared sometimes. Often, I think it's just the fear of bombing out and having to walk back and forth. And I think it's just the fear of, like, I'm going to have to walk back up the hill rather than physically hurting myself.
But, yeah, it's hard to separate those out sometimes, you know, because especially with Volbe, if you load up and you're really heavy and you take off and you, like, really, like, got a lot of anxiety just before you take off because you're like, is this the right spot? Is it going to be okay? But then I'm like, well, hang on. There's grass everywhere. There's hardly any wind. I'm just going to land at the bottom with the pack and the hot sun. And maybe that's what's causing me to be scared. Yeah. The other example I'd like to bring up is. Yeah. The other example I'd like to bring up is Chrigel. Now, do you think Chrigel takes the most risks out of anyone in the XLs?
Gosh, no. You know, I don't. I think he takes probably the least. I think he's. Exactly. You know, I think he's so good and he's practiced so much that I think it's very methodical for him. I think it's very Swiss for him in his approach if that maybe that's stereotyping too much. But I think. Yeah. No, I would agree with you. I think that he takes the least.
Exactly. So basically, if you take more risks in the XLs than you're used to taking, then you probably will end up getting yourself in bad situations and then it compounds and then you make bad decisions because you're not in the right headspace. So Chrigel hurt himself in a flight that was totally noncompetitive. And he said that that helped affirm him that he wasn't, you know, too influenced by competition and he wasn't adjusting the risks just because it was a competition because it happened on a free flight. That didn't matter. So, yeah, I think if you want to take his example and it's a pretty good example to take, you should basically do what you're comfortable with and then you're going to perform a lot better.
Nick, do you think in your. It sounds like 10 years. 10 plus years of flying. Do you think that what separates, you know, pilots that can, you know, compete in things like the XLs or or or competitions and do well or just, you know, that let's call it the the upper echelon of pilots versus the lower echelon. Do you think a big piece of that is is being able to deal with things when they go bad? You were talking about, you know, that you're one of your strengths is, you know. When it's when it's windy or when it's nasty or when there's too much valley wind, you know, you're you still get scared like every sane person does. But you're maybe dealing with it better, better.
And by better, I mean calmer and faster. And you're you're thinking about maybe options. This wasn't something I was planning on talking about. But you mentioned that. And I think that's maybe interesting because I get the question a lot from from our listeners. You know, how are some people? They seem to be better. Better with the same kind of hours as somebody that's, you know, that's in other words, they progress very fast. Well,
I think it's all just practice. And I don't think my progression is actually being faster. I am like I said, I flew the beginner wing for two years. I didn't really do very big cross countries for a while. Like there was periods where I wasn't even I was kind of like tethered to the hill kind of thing. Yeah. I'm just saying I'm kind of more used to that type of flying. There's a bit of wind around from doing World Biv trips, especially in New Zealand and also exploring places that I'm not used to. So I'm kind of used to doing something unfamiliar, like making unfamiliar things more familiar. And I don't think it's anything special. I think there's a fairly small pool of us doing this.
And some of us have the luxury to spend a bit more time on it. And it just happens to be that that's kind of my specialty. That's what I've spent most time on, I think. Yeah. Do
you think that that's
a teachable skill? Really what you want to do is spend as much time learning at the best rate of learning. And I guess part of that is going out there and doing it. And part of it is reflecting on it and trying to figure it out when you're on the ground, like processing it. So mostly I've definitely had a lot of people. People help me, maybe like partly with the flying skills side and partly with the sort of psychological approach or whatever. But not really. It's just been driven by me trying to do these things on my own.
Tell me about your meteorology background. Are you finding that, you know, like you said, being just a pilot, you get really good at it. I kind of think all paragliders are pretty good at gliding. They're pretty good at meteorology at some level, depending on how long they've been doing it. But are you finding that your your courses there and the I think you just said you just did this like eight or nine month course and now that's becoming your job. Are you finding that's affecting your flying in a in a positive way?
Yeah, it's hard to say. I think it's like there's definitely been a few things that I've picked up out of the course that I kind of hadn't thought of before. But I'm basically doing the same thing as in trying to understand the physics behind. Everything when I'm flying and trying to figure it all out. And I guess now I've just got a little bit more to sort of ingredients to put in that mix and to try and figure things out. So definitely helps the more, you know, the quiet time you have thinking about things like sometimes you figure things out afterwards, I suppose. But I guess most of what we learned in the meteorology course is sort of a larger scale. Thing like when I fly, typically I've got a crappy little phone with limited batteries and internet connection.
So I don't actually spend much time or any time looking at the forecasts. I just get the most basic forecast I can if it's available. And a lot of places I go to, it's not. But yeah, observing things and trying to figure out what's going on. I guess the biggest thing that I've been learning in the meteorology course is more about like the upper atmosphere and the broader scale stuff. Yeah.
You mentioned in your blog that you flew that summer. I realize the blog was written or just posted now, but it was written a couple of years ago before the X-House. But you were talking about flying quite a bit without an instrument. It sounded like because the instrument was broken, but also in a sense a choice. Is that something you'd recommend?
Yeah. Well, so I think I mentioned that it kind of helped me fly faster because you wouldn't waste time in dribbles or lifting. You'd just go on until you found something that was easy to, you know, obviously going up kind of thing. Yeah, it is good. Like I've always flown with very little instrumentation. Like I've been using my phone with X-E-Saw, but the screen's turned off 99 % of the time. I just turn it on if I want to check airspace or check my ground speed if something funny is going on. Now I've got a new instrument so I can always see my glide and that's kind of good and ground speed. But yeah. The most important thing always is to look out the window, isn't it? Because there's so many things that you can observe. And if you're looking at your instruments, you might be missing something.
I mean the instruments are pretty fancy. But well, I'm there to – like the reason I got into paragliding in the first place is to enjoy the views. So I don't really want to spend too much time looking at a computer.
That's savvy advice. Well, hey, let's end this on a really positive note. Because I'm asking you all kinds of really tough questions. Let me ask you an easy one. What's your most memorable flight?
Is that supposed to be an easy question?
It'd be impossible for me.
I was hoping you'd have like epiphany. Oh, it was that time in South America.
Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, since you mentioned it, like I guess I'm pretty impressionable.
Flying past Machu Picchu was pretty amazing. I'd sort of planned it a week in advance. I mean not really planned it because I was not really sure if it was possible. But I started at a mountain pass that was, I don't know, 4,500, 5,000 meters. Flew all the way down the valley into the wind before it picked up, like the valley wind. Crossed past Machu Picchu, which was amazing. And then flew downwind in the valley like getting 80, 90 k's an hour on glides with the valley wind picking up and getting higher and higher into more and more arid country. And then flying past Cuzco and then going back and landing a short walk from Cuzco. That was pretty amazing. And that was one of those flights. It was like, you know, the third day of Little Bolbiv.
And one of the ones where you go, wow, that really did happen. That's pretty amazing. Let's see what else I can try that might actually work. So, yeah, that was a good one. But I don't know. I probably wouldn't have said that unless you mentioned South America.
Okay. Well, you have to. I have to. Just stop on that for a moment because I've been to Machu Picchu. I went there with my mom. This is long before I knew anything. Maybe I'd look at it with different eyes now. But that is absolutely insane. I remember the terrain in there, like that river, the Urabamba or whatever it's called. It's like class five the whole way. I don't recall there being too many places to land. I mean, again, I wasn't a paraglider back then. So maybe I'd look at it differently now. But that is an awesome flight.
Yeah, it was amazing.
It's had me pretty stoked for a while.
And the guys in Peru, I didn't get to meet with them, but they were pretty keen to hear about that as well. But, yeah, it always looks better when you're in the air. There is a few landings around. Probably the part before I got to Machu Picchu was the worst. But, yeah, it's a good place, Peru.
Wow. Okay, you hit it out of the park with that one. Can you give me another one? Do you have another best flight? Did another one pop into your mind when you were telling that story? That's insane. Do you have any pictures of that?
Yeah, I do. A few, yeah. Yeah, well, other flights in South America. Flying along the length of the Cotija de Blanca in, do you know Huaraz in Peru? It's where the mountaineers go with those 6,000-meter mountains. That was the first place I got to 6,000 meters, and that was pretty awesome. And then, yeah, that was another little. But, yeah, there's a place up the valley there where I just looked at the map and went there a couple of times. You can catch a bus there for, I don't know, a dollar or something, or probably less. And then you walk up, and it's pretty crappy. Like, you go across this polluted river and then up through the scrub. But you just pull the wing up, and then you just, like, boom, like an elevator. It's, like, way faster than catching the bus up the hill.
And then you've got a really long crossing, but after that you can just fly along these glaciated mountains. But, yeah, again, Peru's pretty crazy. Like, there's a lot of wind around. And, yeah, but quite a good way to see the country, isn't it?
Yeah, don't the tandem pilots in Cusco land with skis? Because, you know, the air is so thin, and they come in so fast to protect their clients, they put some kind of skis on the bottom of their harness so they can just kind of slide in.
Yeah, I don't know what they do. That's
what I heard anyway. Well, if you could just pack up today and go anywhere in the world to fly, where would you go?
Well, probably New Zealand. It's getting tired, isn't it?
I have been thinking about places to go. I thought maybe China has got some really huge and amazing mountains, and it kind of isn't that well traveled. But it's actually – my brother speaks Mandarin, and I asked him about it a few months ago. And he said, yeah, it would be really straightforward in terms of politically. Because I know in India it was a real hassle. Like, you're getting hassled by people and bureaucrats and everyone wants to see if you've got a permit and all this kind of thing. But it's like, yeah, China has no enemies. They won't care. So I don't know if it's true or not, but it would be good to go out and do stuff without worrying about getting hassled, which is one thing. There's a lot I like about New Zealand, but China has got some big mountains.
But I don't know. I haven't looked into it in detail. Maybe the word is crap, but yeah. I should have mentioned one other place, and that's your home ground, your home turf. I kind of skipped that partly because I thought the U.S. is an easy place to go to when you've got a shorter amount of time. But yeah, it looks like you guys have got a lot of stuff at home. So any of your listeners from the U.S., you don't need to travel too far. As you said, there's some – well, I'm sure there's a range of stuff over there, not just that hardcore Sierra Nevada stuff.
No, yeah. There's a little bit of everything. It's just a massive place. California is New Zealand on its own. It's just huge. There's just so much there. It's almost daunting. For sure. Yeah. There's not much reason to leave, except there are – I always feel like you get more hours and more time if you go to Europe. Just because it's – the weather is – we just get a lot of unflyable days. It's windy. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Yeah, you would do. Well, Nick, thanks so much. I really appreciate your time. It was really cool being able to connect with you and Sydney and me at Vancouver here, getting ready in about an hour. I'm going to be on stage presenting North Unknown to a bunch of folks, so that should be pretty fun.
But until we see each other again, I hope it's before the ex-Alps. But if not, we'll see you in a couple of months in
Fusil. Yeah, great. Looking forward to it. And have a good talk. I wish I could be there. Yeah, I wish you could, too. Well, one of these days, we'll get to
show it to you. Fantastic. Cool, man. Well, hey, thanks, and talk to you soon.
Thanks a lot. Yeah, cheers.
I hope you enjoyed that. Always great to sit down with a fellow ex-Alps athlete and see what they're doing to get ready for the race and see their approach to all kinds of different things. That was really good. I hope you got a lot out of that. As always, all we ask for is a buck a show. This is a listener-supported podcast. We don't have sponsors supporting it. If you can't contribute, then there are many other ways. You can share it on a blog, on your own blog. You can share it on the social medias, Facebook or Twitter or whatever. Tell your friends. That's by far the best way to support the podcast. And you can also rate us on iTunes or Stitcher or however you listen to the podcast. That goes a long way. That actually boosts the ratings and makes it a lot more visible to other people that maybe don't know about the show.
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