Hi there everybody, welcome to another episode of the Cloudbase Mayhem. This is episode 30, I can't even believe it. What started off as a whim a couple years ago, after listening to some pretty awesome pilots give some amazing talks here in Sun Valley at the PWC, I decided to start a little podcast and look at how it's grown and thank you all for making it what it is. Thank you for your donations, thanks to Miles Connolly who has been helping me edit these. It takes a lot of time and a lot of hours, but it's totally worth it and yeah, thank you so much for supporting the show. One little quick bit of housekeeping, as I mentioned on the last couple, we are doing a show where Bill Belcourt is going to host the podcast.
I'm going to go down and visit him right after the holidays, right around New Year's and bring him your questions. So I'm still taking questions on that, if you've got a question for the Yoda of the sky, Bill Belcourt, who is episode one. If you haven't caught that one, please go back and check it out. It was actually just a recording. We recorded a conversation I had with him for when we were making 500 miles to nowhere a few years back down in Salt Lake City. So this guy, when Bill opens his mouth, it's just like you just got to love him. Lock it deep in your brain and remember what he says. He has an amazing way to talk about the sport that we all love. So yeah, some of your questions, I'll fire them off down to Bill and he will be hosting a future episode of The Cloudbase Mayhem. Some of you are probably familiar with Malcolm Gladwell's outliers, kind of stories of success and how people become really good.
And one of the things I love about paragliding is that age doesn't seem to matter too much. The guys that really crush it. On the PWC are typically way past their physical prime. Guys in their 50s and late 40s are very often the guys to beat. And that really encourages me because I'm 44 and going into an ex-Alps year, but certainly past my physical prime. But it's just something I find really encouraging about the sport that you don't have to be young and super strong to really excel at flying. However, there are the outliers. And this conversation with Mickey Siegel is one of those. Mickey started flying when he was 13, I believe, or maybe even younger.
And he's been chasing it hard. I first met Mickey here at the PWC in 2012 where he got fourth. I think he was 24 at the time. Just a phenomenal pilot. He's a test pilot for gin. We talk quite a bit about that. Talk about what happened with the gin factory last year. The new CCC rules. And what that's going to be doing for the development of wings. How valuable mentors are in the sport. Choosing the right wing for the task. All kinds of really terrific things. Talk a lot about the Swiss League. Something I wish we had an equivalent of here in the States. They just produce incredible pilot after incredible pilot. Mostly because they're flying with some of the best pilots in the world on a regular basis.
So we talk about a lot of the things that make a pilot great. And Mickey is certainly one of those. So I think you're going to enjoy this. Without further ado, please enjoy this conversation with Michael AKA Mickey Siegel.
Mickey, this is awesome to have you on the show, man. It's really cool to connect with you here. I think it's been almost a year since I saw you in person. I'd rather do this in person. But we are on opposite sides of the planet. Where are you and what are you doing?
Yeah, hello and thank you for having me on the show. I'm currently in Korea for testing new paragliders. So yeah, it's really around the world.
You guys got a new wing coming out or can you not even tell me?
Yeah, partly I can tell you. We're working on the Boomerang 11 for the next Superfinal. But also the most important actually is the Explorer. It's a lightweight high ENB glider that we will bring out within this year.
Oh, very cool. Will that be, you're kind of like hike and fly. You know, I'm not super familiar with Jin product. But is that kind of going to be your middle range hike and fly glider?
Exactly, exactly. So we already have the Cheeto that people were flying during the XOPS. And we have the Yeti, which is an ENA. It's a glider, which is quite light, but we missed something in between. And that's why we thought that this glider will be perfect. It's called Explorer and that's exactly what it's meant to be for traveling because it's light. But also you just go and explore new things, new places where you've never been before.
And will this kind of be similar performance as the Carrera? Is that kind of what it mimics?
Exactly. So we started quite early with this project. And we started with the Carrera. And now we made, I don't know how many prototypes, six, seven more prototypes with different profiles and line arrangements and trimmings. And now it's a completely different glider. But yeah, performance is pretty much the same like Carrera, maybe a little bit better.
Okay. Yeah, because I got up close and personal with it. I was on the Carrera with Will Gadd on the Rockies Traverse. I don't know if you ever got to see that film, but he was on the Carrera and it's quite a lovely glider. I want to ask you some more stuff about Ginn. So what's your, I know you've been a pilot for them for a long time, but tell me a little bit about that history. We'll get into your personal history too, but I know Ginn just had to close up shop and reopen in a new place. Has that transition taken place? And how much time do you spend out there?
Last year was really a difficult one. We used to produce in two places. One was in China and the other one was in North Korea. The idea to produce in North Korea started maybe 10 years ago. And it was actually not because of price or because of something like this. It was more because everybody had hoped to reunion the North and the South of Korea again. This was the original idea. But of course for us, it was also excellent. When the gliders left the factory, it took three hours to get them here to the office. So we could easily finish a glider in the morning, send the files there. And as soon as the glider was ready, we could fly it.
So we don't have to send it by airplane or something like this. It was just perfect. Then all of, they closed the factory from one day to the other. So we lost all the material. We lost all the machines. And we never will get this back probably. So this is, right now we think it's just closed and it will never open again. That was a huge problem for us. And not only for Jing gliders, but for many Korean companies, they lost everything. Because some of them were producing only in North Korea. And they, yeah, they, they're gone now. So we were quite lucky. We had another facility in China. But there we were mainly producing for other companies like Skywalk and so on.
So we could get them to other places. And now we produce only Jing gliders in this factory in China. Did you ever visit
the other factory? Did you ever get to go to North Korea?
I always wanted to. But it wasn't possible. Because I usually, or until this year, I stayed here only two or three weeks in a row. And there was no time. So I wanted to go there. Thorsen was there. And he said it's, it's, the factory itself was nice because it was built by Jing gliders. But to go there and the controls you get to, you have to, you have to give your, your cell phone, there are no cameras and so on and so on. Or if you have to check what you make. So, yeah, it sounded pretty special.
Yeah, that, that must be, that must be wild. What is your, what is your role there? And give me a little brief about what Thorsen does as well. Are you, are you a test pilot for Jing? Are you, how does, how does that all work?
Yeah, I, first I got in as a test pilot. And I, I did mainly, mainly the competition gliders like the boomerang series or sometimes also a little bit of tandem or GTO. But, and because I was studying and this, this last year I finished university and I was looking for a job. And then Jing glider said, Hey, why don't you start to work for us? And now I, I'm working for them in as a test pilot, like part of the R and D, but also in the marketing and sales. Is that, what was your degree? Is your degree engineering? Not at all. It's, I, I studied geography and sports. Okay. Something completely different.
So the
marketing side, maybe more so.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I will get into it more and more, I think.
So this is, this is now your, your work. Is it competitions obviously still, and, but, but also R and D for, for gin.
Yes. So I'll help. I help with the development of, of the new products. Like, like, like for, for now the, the Explorer or Boomerang 11, but also with the harnesses. Quite a big part of my job is the, the communication with the dealers. Of course, in Europe, because I'm based in Europe, when they have questions, when they have problems or so, they, they usually, they get now to me and I, I try to communicate with them and find a solution for their problems.
Okay. Okay. So let's, let, if I, if any of this is wrong, let me know. I just was reading up on you, obviously getting ready to, to talk to you and you're 29. Is that right? 29, 30. Yeah. Okay. And you, you started flying in 2003 and, you know, from, from looking at your results, it wasn't long after that, that you were starting to shred on, you know, in the Swiss league, which is about as hard as it gets other than the PWC maybe. And some of these kinds of things. So rewind the clock for me a little bit. What was the impetus? What got you into flying? And then how did you get so good? So fast? Yeah,
my parents got a, they had a paragliding school. So ever since I, I was on the takeoff in a landing field and so on. And so, um, I was almost forced to start paragliding.
Perfect. That makes it easy.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, I, I, I think that that would be a hard time for my dad if I wouldn't have started paragliding. And for me, it was, was quite nice. So, um, yeah, I, I did a lot of flights because, uh, they were for free. The material was for free. So, uh, this was awesome. So the support I got from my parents was, was crazy. And, um, it also, the problem was, uh, I started with 15, but I, I wasn't allowed to make the exam before 16. So actually it was all under supervision of my, of my dad or another teacher. But already there, I made like six hour flights, something like this, uh, all around the valley and candlestick. So, yeah, it was, it was quite cool.
That's really cool. Um, then soon after I changed the glider from, I, I started with ENB gliders and then EN, I think even in school, I went to EN, ENC and soon after END, like, um, and I got to, to the advanced team. Um, they supported me with the first glider I got was, uh, Omega six. And this is still, you're still in your teens.
You're at 19, 20 now. No, no, no. I think I was,
um, that was 16 or
17. Oh, wow. You're really young. Okay. Okay.
Yeah. Yeah. So they got me in this team and it was, uh, well, I still had to pay for the glider, but it was, it was not very much. So, uh, and then with the team, it was just, this was awesome because there were, I, maybe you remember Stefan Schmucker. Yeah, of course. Um, he was one of my best friends and we were in the same team. And with Chrigel, Chrigel, it was perfect. I mean, he is such a nice guy. And with those two, I had so much fun and then we always push. So Chrigel was for sure the best, but we tried to reach him. Uh, and I think that was really what, what, what got us better and better. Hmm.
I, I want to know more about the Swiss league because it's, I, I was, you know, remember I wasn't too long ago, I was trying to fly with you in the Swiss league and I, I didn't have a wing or something. You were going to lend me an ice speakers. I was going to go fly, but, but, um, you know, I've kind of followed it. This is something that, you know, we just don't have, there's a league out in California. Um, but it's not very serious. It's really more recreational and for fun. Um, when I look at your, the Swiss league, there's the, and it, because I don't speak German, I don't know exactly, but there's like the a, a group and the a plus group and the, you know, and, and every, the names on there are just, you know, they, they are the names really in, in, in paragliding. Is this, I mean, can you, uh, place a lot of the success with the Swiss pilots on your training regimen?
Is that, you know, is that what's creating so many good Swiss pilots? Is it the league?
Yeah. Also. Yeah. I, I think that's part of, is the, but I think it's not only that, it's just like, I, the problem is I cannot tell you why someone is successful. I mean, now it's more Swiss are quite bad at the moment and the French are much better. But I cannot tell you why it's like this or why some Swiss pilots are very good. Sometimes it's like Chrigel is always very good, but, um, he's also flying every day. But on the other hand, Stefan Borgenthaler, who is also a really good pilot or Stefan Meese, he's, They, they fly their competition gliders, only competition, and Stefan Weiss never joins the Swiss, uh, it's never on a Swiss league cup. So these, uh, frequent competitions we have because he's always working as a tandem pilot, so I cannot tell you why, but for sure the Swiss league is good for the young pilots, so we take them there.
It's like a training, we help them quite a lot, and we try to do it's like a small family, so the youngsters coming and we take care of them and
What? What is it? Define what that means by "taking care of them." Does that mean there's money available to them, or you know, kind of travel expenses, or is it more just a mentor program? It's
A little bit of of everything. So, um, they, if for example, if they're students, they get the first year, they get all the, um, I think most of the competitions paid. And later, it's, it depends on your qualifications. So, the best five pilots, they get paid. Like, when I go to to a World Cup, I get paid a little bit of this. But also, for the youngsters, they, they also get paid a little bit. But in addition, we have, um, we support them at the, at the competition. So, we help them to, to with task briefings, debriefings, uh, and also when sometimes you have to put in, uh, turn points to, to help them how to put them in and deal with their GPS.
Okay, okay, I got you. So you mentioned Stefan, who's, you know, an incredible, and he's has so many incredible results. Is it—could you, as a Swiss pilot, could you make a living, like, if you didn't have the job with Jen, could you make a living just off competitions? Or no? It's not that much support, oh.
No, no, no way. Sometimes it pays the cost for the travel, but only like when, when I'm going to, to Brazil, it pays the cost for the flight. Okay, so that's it. So...
Even somebody like Chrigel has responsibilities, other other means to make money; he's not doing it just from paragliding, um...
well, I guess he could be doing
it through guiding and tandems and
What's exactly that? That's how he does, so he, he has, um, quite, I think he has quite, uh, nice sponsors, but just because of the money from, from the Swiss league, or, or this will not work in for him changing
Gears here a little bit, only because I know your hometown, which, uh, the Swiss Alps are all of all of them magnificent, but you live in kind of stag, and if I screwed up the pronunciation there, I apologize in advance, but it's just unbelievable. It's just like waterfall heaven, gorgeous, uh, just, uh, south of of Interlock, and what a spectacular place is that. Your favorite place to fly, or where is your favorite place to fly? I cannot tell. I, it's Sun Valley, ah, where, where you got forth, you took
That, yeah, that was, uh, that was my first PWC. That was it, yeah. That was, uh, this is a pretty amazing spot, isn't it?
Yeah, it's awesome, but um, to be, to be honest, I don't have, uh, like, like the flying spot, but because there's so many nice places, but it's, it's all different. I mean, Brazil is awesome when you go, uh, to Colombia, it's amazing flying, but Candlestick is really, really nice, and it's, it's just something special. And I even if I fly there every day, when I, when I'm at home, it's, it every day is different, and it's, you can do easy soaring in the evening for two or three hours with, uh, yeah, as a, as a, as a, as a beginner with 10 flights, or you can go in the, in the most wildly side you can ever imagine there, and it's just offers so, so great flying.
I think that's part of why I got good, good, good at paragliding is because it's wild. So you, you have to control your glide quite well, and yeah, as you said, the, the landscape is spectacular. It's just you, you go out and, uh, it's just, just nice. I
Think, I think what you said there, that one of the reasons you got good fast is because of that, that area. It really, that does really make sense to me because it's, you know, you're, you're in the big Alps and it's, and it's radical, isn't it? I mean, there's, there's a lot going on there. It's very complicated. You're just one ridge over from the Valis and you're very close to the Grimsel and, and, uh, yeah, there's, I mean, there's, it's a complicated area to fly, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, so it's, it's nice on the other hand. It's important to learn with, with the valley breezes and the wind systems and so on, but um, this year we had the World Cup in Saint Andre in southern France, and there I was completely lost. So, for me, it wasn't working at all, because there, the valley winds, it was not working the way I expected. So, the, the French, they went on places, I said, "No way, it's gonna work there." I went where I thought the thermals will be, and there was nothing but lease. I didn't, so it's interesting for me. It works quite well to flying in, in Switzerland, of course, but also Austria, Italy, but um, yeah, sometimes it's also not working, and then I'm lost a little bit. So, of course, I got good because of that, but also sometimes I get, it's like a trap.
do you tell
me about your personal flying, do you is most you like you said Stefan mostly just flies competition because he works the rest of the time. Do you, how do you split your time? How much is spent just free flying versus comps? Uh, you know, do you chase huge distances? Are you, are you, you know, are you somebody that like tries to chase records down in Brazil, or you know, I don't know much about your personal flying. It's
A little bit of all, so I started, I started to do more and more, uh, hiking.
So this is great because, uh, you do something for yourself and then you have an awesome flight. So I like this quite a lot, especially in autumn when there are in Europe, the thermals in autumn are usually in the in the higher mountains, so you there are no cable cars, so you have to walk up and this is just great. But I, I like to do everything, so in Switzerland it depends how much I work or how much I've been flying. So if I've been testing, you know, two weeks, I've been two weeks in or three weeks in Korea and I've been flying every day. Then when I get home, I, I don't fly at all. Then I go biking or skiing or snowboarding or whatever. But if the, if the weather is good, we, we, we try to, we try to make big distances in Fiesh or Nisen or wherever.
I love it. Do you, um, what is your longest flight? Yeah, that's a pity. Last year we went for, uh, we tried to break the order break, but make the first 300 f8 triangle in, in Switzerland. And yeah, we went from, we started in Fiesh, went up to the Grimsel, and back down to Chamonix. Yep.
Oh, I remember those flights. That was awesome. That's right, I saw that on X. Contest, that was gorgeous. Yeah,
It was great, but then I made a or I, yeah, it was quite of a mistake. So I couldn't push enough to the north because this is not working well in the north. You mean to go tag to go
tag up in the sauce, yeah.
The problem was, there, there is, um, in summer there is always the north, north wind coming in. I made a mistake and I, I was washed down, so I had to, I was forced to go back to the, to the valleys, while Kuffer and, um, Jan Sterren, they, they continue to push north and I made, I made a mistake there and, um, yeah, I couldn't go there, yeah.
Jan Jan Sterren is, uh, somebody I've been watching for years in that neck of the world woods. He does some really terrific, terrific triangles, doesn't he? Yeah,
So then, um, I went back to the valleys, and from this point where I turned, I was sure I will not make the 300 because I was calculating, and in the end, I missed five, five, five kilometers. That's
still a monster, though. Well, congratulations, yeah.
Well, it was like, you know, this flight, you land and everybody said, "Oh, that was an amazing flight!" And you are, "Oh, yeah, I'm not so happy."
The dangers of chasing numbers, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. A couple years ago, that would have been like, "Oh my god, that was epic." Uh, Mickey, uh, if you—if you have accidents, or like, if you had any kind of scary situations or accidents that have ever, uh, plagued you or come about in your—in your career since 2003 that have kind of like, I don't know, if they set you back or if they've been—if they've been, well, let's—if you had any, let's start with there, yeah.
Um, personally, no, I never had any big accident. Well, I hurt my finger or my my uh my foot or something like this, but um, I I didn't have any big accident so far, luckily. So I'm a happy guy, right?
Good. And, and what about, um, I remember, you know, you and I were part of a, a very bad accident with a very good friend of yours in Mexico. Have any of those kind of situations ever impacted your own flight or anything like that? Yeah, I think it's, uh,
Yeah, this, this, uh, did influence me quite a lot. Mexico, Mexico is quite a bad place for me because, um, in 2009, I think that was, my, my best friend died, died there, uh, during the World Worlds. This was crazy because we, we used to fly quite a lot together, and as he was a really good pilot, so you question yourself, why did this happen? Or I'm sure this can also happen to me. And yeah, this was really a setback. And then when, was we were in Mexico for my first World Cup, I was in Mexico, um, there was a, during the training day, that, um, Rafa, Rafa, Lucas, um, had his crash on the, on the training day, and I, I landed there, and he was already dead, and I had to wait there for, I think, two hours until the, until the, until the rescue team came.
And yeah, this was also a very nice situation. So, um, this was also quite tough for me, yeah, when
You say it was quite tough for you, like I mean, obviously that kind of accidents, that kind of thing are really tough. Are you much, are you more mindful of the risk after these kind of things? Are you more careful, or uh, is it something you kind of just, you mourn and then you move on? Yeah,
It's difficult, so I remember, for example, in Mexico, the first, uh, first day, it was a, a few days ago, where I was like, "I'm gonna do this, and I'm gonna do that, I'm gonna do that." And then, um, one day later was a rest day because, yeah, he died, so we said, "Let's stop." And then on the first day after, I, I went to land really early, so I just didn't feel well in the air, and I thought, "Oh no, it's too bumpy, and I hate it." Yeah, it's, it's this, even though I know it's, um, well, it may happen to everyone, but it's like, "Oh no, I take it slowly from now on." But after a while, I started to, start to push again. Sure do.
You do, you think there's kind of a different setting that that pilots at your level have, you know, in other, what I'm trying to get at is, like, you know, to get to that level where you're, you know, kind of frequently top 10 and in the world? Is it, is it, is it a different approach to risk? Is it a different approach to training? Is it talent? Uh, obviously, all these things play a factor, but I think with you, you know, you're, you're in the midst, uh, all the time of, of some really, really good pilots being involved with the Swiss League, and just, just being in Switzerland, just being where you, where you live. Are there some, are there some factors there you think that could be, uh, you know, for our audience, some factors there that you've, you've kind of pointed out that you, you can share, uh, with the audience about kind of what is, is it a personality type?
Like, for example, when I was, I think, day two of the X-Ops, I was hiking down off the layer, not, sorry, it wasn't the Laramus, which one was Ash out turn point with, like, Duragati and Michael Witschi, and I was having a really great conversation with Michael Witschi about, uh, you know, that he's an engineer, and I, you know, we find a lot of pilots, a lot of really good pilots that are engineers, and that's always kind of fascinated me, uh-huh.
Um, I to be honest, I have no idea. The thing is, for example, in Switzerland, is high educated people like, um, uh, Stefan Wies is a biologist, but there are so, or Michael Witschi, engineer, Adrian Hagen, also engineer, and so on and so on. But there are also quite a lot of pilots like, um, like Critical Mauer, they didn't go to to a higher school, or his brother either. So it's, it's also, it doesn't mean that you have to have a good education, for example. It also can, could be the diff, uh, the other side that they, the others have more time to fly. So what I see is, at least in Switzerland, the pilots that are good, now in some period of their life, they had a lot of time to fly, so they could try, train a lot, they could fly a lot, they get a lot of experience to know, uh, how thermals work, how to climb well, and and to see where to go.
So I think that helps quite a lot, and it's same in Switzerland, there are big parallels between cross country flying and World Cup flying. So if you're good in, in cross country, you're usually also good in, in World Cup because you, you know how to choose the lines. And on the other hand, if you're good in World Cup, then you know how to fly fast, and that helps you to go for bigger distances, one
Of the, uh, one of the questions that I get quite frequently that comes through is when people are just discovering competition, and not at the World Cup level, but they're just discovering, you know, like they're going to the Monarchies and that kind of thing, or maybe League events, and they're—they're able to hang on to the League gaggle for, you know, one or two climbs, or three climbs, or maybe four climbs, and then they inevitably they lose them and they can't reel them back in. Um, you know, so the terminology I got in the question was, you know, how do you go from kind of an also-ran to top 10? Is that—is that simply a matter of hours, or is that, uh, you know, when in your own development from 2003 and you kind of coming up, you know, looking at your results on the Swiss League page, you know, there was obviously—there was, you know, some great results, but then some really great results, like there was almost kind of an aha moment.
It seemed like about 2009, I think you won Swiss League three years in a row. Was there—was there something you really put together there, or was that just literally a matter of flying 300 hours a year or whatever you're doing, and I
think then, um, to win something, it's it's a combination of other bit of everything actually. So it's your mental strength, so you you're you're your mind is in a good setting. So you know, I'm in a good mood, I know I'm I I fly very good and I can beat the others. That that's that's one part. So you have to believe in yourself and then I think it works better than if you think, ah, today I'm not in a good mood and conditions are not very nice to fly today. And if you say, ah, looks quite okay, let's see if I I have to get the best out of these conditions and the others, and that helps a lot. So you're saying confidence? Yes, exactly.
You need a lot of self confidence, sure. And the other is the material. So I I saw for for me, it's it's quite helpful if you, well, if you have not the best material, you have to fly better than the others to keep up and As soon as you then change the material to to material that is same or even better then you, you will win. So that happened to me after I changed from um boomerang seven to boomerang eight prototypes, okay? So that was the first time I won in Colombia the world cup, and then when I changed from boomerang x to boomerang nine, it happened again. So that, that was really this, these things.
So um, you, you have to have good, good material; otherwise, you can, we will
win the competition because in World Cup now, everybody has a good glider. So if you, if your glider is slightly less good than the others, it's, it's hard to win. And the last thing you need to have is luck, yeah.
sure it's
It's so crazy when you, when you fly and you just miss a thermal, or, or you know, that the other one that wins the competition, he just turned to, to the left side and you turn to the right side. He got a climb out and you bumped out. I, I think it's just luck. Um, do you
train acro as well, uh
a little bit, yeah, yes, um, yeah, um, the problem is I don't have enough time, right? But I, I like it a lot, so when I'm in Switzerland, we go a lot to Lauterbrunn. It's near the, sure, it's in the Jungfrau region. It's a really cool place to do acro, yeah.
Beautiful, that's a stunning place where everybody's hopping off the walls, uh, wingsuit base jumping all day long. It's a, yeah, it's crazy. What's
going on there, yeah.
Yeah, it's a wild spot. I want to rewind a little bit, Mickey, yeah? Because I kind of glossed over this because I wanted to get to my questions, but you actually said a couple things early on that, uh, that I'm curious about. You're in Korea right now? You're sounds like you're flying a lot. What's the flying like there? I don't know much about the flying in Korea. It's special. Okay, that sounds interesting, yeah.
It's, um, it's an interesting place to fly and, and also to live. It's, it's special. Also, the, the climate here is quite continental. The thing is, it's so close to China and we, it's usually, it's west wind, so in that means in wintertime, as I said you before, it's getting really cold. So from December to, let's say, art or April, it's freezing cold, means usually zero to minus 10, 20 degrees. But still, then the thermals are working good. But you can imagine, I, I remember the first time I was here in wintertime and Chin gave me, it was a Carrera prototype. I took off in strong wind and it got even stronger and you're there hanging there.
It, you're the moment you take off, you're cold, right? And then it's just freezing cold. It's bumpy. And I was just climbing, climbing, climbing, and I was desperately, I wanted desperately to go down, but it was impossible. So as soon as I started the spiral, my face hurt so much I couldn't, so I had to stop the spiral and, yeah, that's it. I was hanging there for half an hour at least, trying to go down, and in the end, I just put my arms together, push the speed bar, and hope for the best.
with Jen probably laughing on the ground the whole, the whole way. Welcome to Korea, yes.
So, uh, actually, yeah, he was standing in the landing in the car, in a heated car, and um, when I landed, he came to me and, "Hey Michael, how is the glider?" I said, "Here is your glider. I want to get in the car and don't ask me ever again if I come back in wintertime, so"
That's it. That's a great lead into my, my other question. We kind of glossed over this, but I imagine—and we did because I, I know what a test pilot is, but I imagine a lot of our audience doesn't. What, what is, what does that mean, being a test pilot virgin? And, uh, you know, what is it involved? Does that just mean you're a guinea pig? Or, uh, tell us more about what it means to be a test pilot, yeah?
I, I think it's, it's similar to in Virgin or Ozone or Advanced. I think that's quite the same, so I'm probably the we work a little bit different, but um, it's, I guess it's basically the same. Sometimes it's a tough job, sometimes it's a really nice job because um, we go to fly, uh, every good good day, so this is awesome. I mean, we can do our hobby as a job. The thing is, you, you, you are also involved in the RMD, so that means in the concept. So you say, um, I would like to have the glider like this and this. So, um, let's say now we're working also on a new C class, so Jim asks us, how would you like to have the C class?
And then we talk about aspect ratio, we talk about line concepts, how we'd like to have the diagonals, and um, so then he's designing a glider, he makes the profiles, and we get the glider. We pull up first in the landing to see if everything is correct, then go up to the mountain, and then it's all about flying, trimming. You top land, you trim again, you fly, you compare, uh, you change the glider as soon as, as you, you like the handling of a glider, you start also to do the maneuvers because um, this is quite important. I'm not a very brave person, so I start to do very slow with the maneuvers. So I try first, I try trim speed collapses depends also on the glider class.
I mean, with E and A, B, and sometimes also with C gliders, I'm okay to do overground the maneuvers, um, when I know the glider So even last last year, I think I certified the the GTO to extra small overground because the collapses are reliable, so I can pull full, I can push full speed, I collapse and I see, I push, I pull a little bit and I get like 60 percent collapse, I push speed bar again, I pull same, it's same collapse. This I like quite a lot because it, it's reliable. Um, what I hate is sometimes with the competition glider, you pull and you get 30 percent collapse, you pull again and you get 80, and this, you can because of this, you can get in really nasty situations.
So, um, yeah, the reliable gliders, I'm happy also to test over ground, but it's always like, take care what you do and and so on, because even on a on a E and a or B prototype, when you pull too much, you can get in these situations, sure. Um,
I imagine that's—that's probably making you a quite a bit better pilot to, to you know, to, uh, to make bad things happen, especially the comp level gliders, you know, which I think we're all a little hesitant to do these days. Um, imagine that's doing a couple things: one, it's building a lot of respect for not letting that ever happen in a real-world situation, but it's also probably giving you quite a bit of confidence that if it does, you've seen it before.
Yeah, yeah, this is for sure. I mean, um, for me, the it was quite fun because the I test, I started to test the maneuvers in general with the Boomerang 9 small size, uh, with the Boomerang 9, and um, this was a nasty glider. So, um, yeah, I had some situations I never thought I can handle them at all, so like
I was like, "Oh my gosh, how do I do this?" I just did this with my wrist, like, you know, the wrist is like a wrist, like a wrist, like hell, and I never went into the water. And of course, I got—I built some confidence with that. But on the other side, you know what happens? So it's also, also like, "Oh, yeah." And then when you have a big harness, like a cocoon harness with a lot of ballast, and then you—you will have your turning behavior in the harness will be completely different. So you think, yeah, if
to control at all, so um, of course I, I know I can handle quite well if something happens, but you also know that sometimes it's just not going the way you'd like. I
Imagine, um, maybe it sounds like, and I don't pay a ton of attention to this stuff, so I can't speak with any authority about this because I'm not a rules guy and I don't really understand, you know, how gliders are, are built, but I imagine I understand with the new, um, CCC rules that it's going to encourage maybe more brands to make comp gliders because, for the last few years, really, it's just been Gin and, and Naviac and Ozone. So, so that's, that has to be a good thing. But I imagine also that, I imagine there's a lot of pressure on you guys, uh, at the, at the comp end of things, not, not so much on the lower level wings because people, I think, are, you know, get pretty brand oriented and, and they're loyal.
But at the comp level scene, what we saw a couple years ago, and you're more familiar with this than I am, I'm pretty new to the comp scene, but you know, the Enzo 2 came out and Naviac lost all their pilots and you guys lost a ton and everybody's flying, you know, the Enzo 2, um, and, uh, so I imagine there's, you know, is there, is there quite a bit of, I don't know, is there quite a bit of stress on you guys to, uh, to, to build a because, like you said, if it's a two or three, um, difference, you know, it's pretty hard to win, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, there is quite a lot of pressure on that, um, this for sure. And also, I think this is why other brands don't bring out their gliders. It's the problem is not only, um, it's not only that you have to be able to, to, to produce or to make a design, a glider that has enough performance; it's also that, uh, it's, it's really a lot of money we put into this, yeah. And smaller brands are just not able to do this, and you have to be sure that it's at least as good as Enzo 2, because if it's not, then why should they buy it? Sure. And, um, yeah, there's quite a lot of pressure, but for, for us, it's, it's still okay, I think, in the, uh, in a worse situation, uh, in a worse situation than we are, because we are almost same with the Boomerang, Boomerang 10, it was okay to fly, um...
and the other one, I don't think it's okay to make it little bit shorter than that, but
Sometimes we were even better, I mean, in in strong conditions and also when we had good final glides, which means we we arrived high enough, we we were faster. So this was also nice, but um, yeah, it's getting tough. Ozone is pushing quite a lot and it's not easy to keep up, especially because you cannot only focus on competition wings. I mean, you don't you don't get money with competition gliders, it's just for for prestige and also for the RMD, but you you you make the money with ENB and C gliders and not with not with uh not with the comp gliders, so
The argument that that I hear a lot is that, you know, that if you're building comp wings, you know, so Ozone, you Mivic, um, you know, then that technology, and because you're putting so much money and effort and energy into these really, you know, amazing ships, that gets passed on down through the brand, you know, all the way down to the teaching gliders. But then you see companies like, uh, Nova, you know, just killing it with their, you know, with their Mentor and, um, and other companies that they don't even try with the with the comp level and the things, and they seem to be building really good B's and C's. What's the incentive for Jen and and Russ? And is it, is it just what you said, just prestige? Or do, do you believe companies really do have to go into the comp end of things to build really great lower-level gliders?
Yeah.
It's, it's a difficult, this is a really difficult question. I also ask myself if, if, um, if it's good that we push so much energy into this. However, I have to say it's, um, the competition gliders are now we're working, of course, now we work on, on the competition gliders, but it's maybe 10 of our work, for sure. For us, it's, um, I think what we're doing is we're working on the competition gliders and we're, when we saw what, what happened with the technology, most of it came from, from competition gliders with the rigid fall, with the shark nose, then with the three cell blocks, four cell blocks, four liners, three liner, two liner. So all of this came from, from, from brands like, basically, from Advance, where they were good in competition, from also No Chin.
So this, this is something the others, they're, they, uh, they follow later and they're making it good also for the, uh, B and C or A gliders, but it's, it's the, the other brands who, who developed it and the others just taking it. So I think it's, it's good that there are still some brands doing the competition gliders, I
Heard, uh, this, this summer there were some really big flights going down, uh, down in Wyoming and in Utah. And you know, Bill Belcourt, Nick Greece, and some of those guys were pushing really hard, uh, and, uh, Bill and I think Chris Golly and, and, uh, Matt Datum, they had a day where they went really big over the back of the Wasatch heading out towards Colorado. And, uh, they were all pretty much together for most of the day, you know, on purpose. And you know, they weren't racing, they were just, they were just trying to go big. The very end of the day, the day's kind of dying, uh, Matt Datum was on an Alpina and the other two, I believe, were on Enzo and, uh, and because he was just on a, on a wing that didn't have glide, uh, you know, he, he went down kind of a no man's land and, and had to, you know, because it was like this really low angle, they had just made it over this peak, had this really low angle glide where he just couldn't, couldn't do it.
The other two glided all the way out to the road, or close to the road, and then, then Matt had this terrifically bad retrieve and, you know, a couple weeks later, Bill was up here flying with
Um, you know that if you have the hours, if you have the time, if you have the skill, you know, 95 of the time you need the performance, and only five percent of the time you need the passive safety. Obviously, competition level wings don't have a lot of passive safety at all, um, but I've always made this argument that, you know, when I'm flying big lines here, or you know, like when I was up in Alaska, that kind of thing, like I, I feel more safe on my say. An example would be like an Ice Peak Six, you know, a really kind of bomb proof, uh, two liner ish wing, um, and I'm not recommending this to the listeners that this is what they need to jump onto. That's not what I'm trying to get to here. What I'm trying to say is that, you know, depending on where you fly, and you fly big lines in big mountains that are very complicated around your home, and kind of, do you also feel that way?
That you would, you rather be flying on a, on a, on a wing that has, you know, incredible bar performance, really fast place that you can get out of with a lot of wind? Um, yes, it doesn't have the passive safety, but you've got the hours, you've got the experience. Uh, do you feel, would you feel more safe on that, or would you feel more safe on a Carrera? tough
Question, um, I, for me, I, I choose the, I will would like to choose the glider from, uh, for what I, for what my goal is, so that means if I, for example, if I take off in Fiesch or somewhere in Switzerland and I want to fly a big distance, so then I need the, I need the best glider available, so it means the most performance because, um, at the end of the day, for example, if I take a Carrera and let's say I make a really good flight, I take the motor out of it and I get 250, then I'm okay. I mean, it's a really nice flight, it's also big distance, but then I question myself, how far could I have been flying? Could I have been gone with, uh, with the Boomerang, for example?
So as I go for, not for numbers, but I want to go the best possible, I would like also to have the best possible gliders in this situation. But if, if I am, for example, uh, go to like, say, Pakistan, or, or somewhere there, I would rather have a Carrera because it's just too, it's risky. It's also, yeah, when you get into lee side, or when you have a landing and you need with the comp gliders, you
and things like that. So the stalls, and it's not only that, I think I feel same safe on on a Carrera that I feel on the Boomerang in the air. So I, I don't feel, I don't feel that I have more safety when I, when I fly in bumpy conditions or on a, on a lower EN glider, but I know that when I, when it comes to, to the landing or when I have a big, to like a huge, uh, collapse and twist, so on that, it will probably handle the EN, the lower EN glider easier. What
Aspect of flying—I'm jumping here a little bit, but what, what aspect of flying do you, do you get most excited about? Do you, do you most enjoy? Is it the, is it the comps flying with your friends? Is it the league? Is it, is it just flying around your home? Is it waga? What do you like the best? I
Like everything, so and I, I don't like too much of of one thing, so that means after one week of competition flying, I, I'm done with it. I don't like competition flying anymore, so then I, I rather walk up to three, four hours somewhere in the mountain, I take off there early in the morning, first sunlight, and I can do a soaring session. So this is crazy. I mean, last time one of my best flights was, um, in summer, we walked up with Jerome to a in candlestick, my hometown, and we slept there during night, and in the morning at seven, the wind was quite strong, so we took off. I took off with the GTO and I was able to soar up more than thousand meters.
So I was on this mountain that you usually, it's not easy to climb up during the day when, when there are thermals, but I think never, no one ever soared up this hill this month. So this was crazy because I was there at nine o'clock in the morning and I was able to soar up more than thousand meters in the morning and I was like, "What the hell is going on?" So this was crazy, but also I mean, when I can go and with no shoes in the sand, soaring somewhere and do some walker, this is crazy as well. This is awesome when
I was when I was a very early pilot that just reminded me of, uh, let's see, called the shill torn, I believe, over in Leuchterbad. You know, the the James Bond thing at the top, uh, my buddy and I were very low hours pilot. We were just learning how to do cross country and, uh, and he'd been up there and flown off and really wanted to show it to him. You know, it's outrageous expensive, you know, to go up there. We went up, yeah, and the cloud was was below the peak tops and there was almost no wind. You know, it's quite a committing forward up there with all that talus and you're just throwing yourself off into oblivion and and we and we we made it back to interlocking, which is nothing, it's like 40k. Oh, you know, yeah, I think we took off at, you know, 9 a.m. or 8:30, whenever they opened that thing. We were first up and it's just those kind of flights, really, they stay with you, don't they?
I mean, they, it doesn't have to be the biggest or the best, it has, you know, it's exactly. Do I, uh, I, I sense you've got this hike and fly bug? Do I, do I, uh, do I see an X-Alps in your future? Yeah.
Also, I, I thought a lot about it, but um, for me, it's, uh, time-wise and money-wise, no, not an option at the moment. Yeah, so I don't have enough time to train and also don't have enough money to, to run this thing, so I don't have enough money to do all these things. So what I see now is, you know, it's for me, it's, I'm a really competitive pilot or person as well, so if I do something, I, I'd like to push to, to what is possible. And um, then when, when I see now with two of my good friends do like a critical maurer or, uh, aron, and they only do paragliding, so they train every day. They, uh,
Every day they, what they do is crazy, and I don't have the time and not the money to do the same. And then I would be disappointed in myself if I, if I will end up, yeah, three or four days later than they are.
Yeah, they, they, uh, I don't know, maybe this isn't even a fair question, but it's, it's, it's interesting. So, no, I want to ask you anyway, it's no sweat, no non-Swiss has ever won the X-Alps, and so part of that's kind of unfair because you have Chrigel, who's just in a completely different category that what he's won four of them already, but um, you know, you guys, you know, as you, as you said, this year, um, you know, the Swiss team isn't dominating this year, it's been the French, and you know, that kind of shifts back and forth depending on wings and training and luck and all the things we've already pointed out, but what is it about the Swiss and the X-Alps?
Difficult to say. One guess could be that, uh, um, that the conditions in Austria and Switzerland—it's two-third of of the distance you have to do, probably—uh, it's the same condition as in Switzerland, so it's for us maybe easier to fly in these conditions. So we know better where to go. There's just one explanation. I, I, I...
Don't know, so kind of like home, home court advantage you were talking about earlier, that you know, like when you went down to San Andre, which I've only flown there a little bit, but the the French really kind of had an advantage there because it's just such a unique—I mean, all the Alps have their own little unique, unique quirks, don't they? But I, I that makes sense, so a little bit more of a home field advantage maybe for, for a good section of the course, probably.
Yes, yeah, yeah, cool.
Mickey, this is great. I really appreciate it. Is there anything you'd like to, uh, to add before we wind things down here? Oh, I know, I know. I really wanted to ask you this: um, when you, when you think back to your, when you started, you know, when you're 15 with your dad back in 2003, or maybe just that first kind of year or two, what advice do you wish you would have received back then, or something that maybe, uh, you didn't get, or you didn't maybe heed, you know, looking back? You haven't had any personal injuries, but you've seen some. Is there, has there ever been any, been, has there ever been kind of like, man, I wish I would have done that differently, uh?
No, flying-wise, I could not say no. For me, the it worked out really good. Maybe if there are other young pilots, um, I can only suggest not to fly every day because, uh, yeah, for me it was not so easy because, um, I, I dropped all the other hobbies and also with the friends in school, that was also not so easy because on the weekends when it's good weather, you go out. And I think what I can only say to, to all pilots, what is the most important is that, that you have fun when you're flying. And as soon as, as you, as it's not fun anymore and you're not enjoying your flight, you have to go to land because then, uh, easier conditions are not nice anymore.
Or, yeah, so this is the most important, to have fun when you fly. Great.
Well, that's a—that's a perfect ending. Let's end it on that. Oh, you know what? I'd love to do, actually, uh, I used to—I used to end all these shows with, uh, with the Proust Questionnaire, which is I find endlessly entertaining. So, these are just a little, little quick questions I'll fire you up, and I'll see you next time. Bye. At you answer them however you want, you don't have to if you don't want to, you don't have to, but, uh, we'll end it on that. Uh, what is your favorite word?
amazing yeah
That's a good one. Amazing is amazing, uh, and your, your least favorite word, uh,
It's not possible, ah, or not how you say it's like impossible, I'm sure. Yeah, impossible, yeah, uh
What turns you on? What turns you off? Nice.
Girls turn me off on, and um, sorry, misspelling, and what turns me off? Not nice girls, bad flying. Okay, there you go. I can, I cannot say that. There are no, there are no, uh, bad looking girls.
Excellent! Oh, good answer, dude. Good answer. Your parents would be proud. Uh, yes. Uh, what sound or noise do you love, and what sound or noise do you... well, hate's a powerful word, but do you not like, um...
I like the the noise of wind quite a lot, so when I'm not flying, for example, when I'm somewhere in the in a forest and I hear the sound of of wind, it's nice. Um, I don't like the sound of cranes when they pass by, okay?
Gotcha. Uh, what is your favorite curse word? What's that? What's your favorite swear word? Shit. Ah, good one. Uh, what profession other than your own would you like to attempt?
like
A doctor, I would say, like medicine, oh.
Okay, uh, and what profession would you not like to do? Oh,
Yeah, I don't want to hurt someone's feelings, but um, no. Uh, so like, I don't like to clean the, how you say, where the wastewater is going—sewer, yeah. Probably this one, yeah. That would—that'd be rough. I hate the smell, yeah.
That would... that would be rough. Okay, final one, buddy. And then you're off, and yeah, I'll let you go fly for the day. Thank you again for doing this. If heaven exists, what would you like to hear God say when you arrive at the pearly gates? Welcome...
I, I'll let you in, even though I know what you did. Come
on in Mickey, there's a space for you
For you, for you perfect. All the stickers are here as well.
Perfect, love it, Mickey. Thanks so much, man, I appreciate it. That was, uh, that was a real honor to get to talk to you. I hope we get to see each other at Cloud Base here again shortly, and, uh, have fun in Korea. Hope you, best of luck with developing your new wings, and, uh, give my best to Jim. Yeah.
Thank you very much, and I hope to see you soon. All right, buddy, love to see you too. Bye-bye, cheers, man, bye.
well
I hope you enjoyed that cool conversation with a very cool cat. Uh, hope I get to spend some time with Mickey here soon at Cloud Base. Uh, as again, and top of the show, I'll see you next time. Bye. Show a reminder that I'm taking questions for Bill Belcourt, just shoot me an email via the cloudbasemayhem.com, or uh, hit me up on Facebook or wherever you like to communicate, and I'll get those down in front of Bill here right after the holidays. I got a great talk coming up for you in two weeks with Russ Ogden. You guys are gonna love this. The uh, Jedi at Ozone and an incredible PWC pilot, incredible guy. He, we actually, actually brought a lot of your questions to him, and always such a treat to hear Russ's ideas on, on flying and flying well.
As always, all we ask for is a buck a show if you got something out of this one or one of the previous episodes. In fact, the last episode with Larry Tudor, uh, legend hang glider, probably the most popular show we've had thus far, that one just got went crazy all over the interwebs. Uh, if you haven't listened to that one, you have to. Some of those stories are just phenomenal. But yeah, if you got something out of this one or one of the previous shows, uh, send us a buck. You can do that, and we'll see you next time. Thank you so much, and we will see you on the next one. Cheers.