Hi there everybody, welcome to another episode of the Cloud Base Mayhem. This is episode 30, I can't even believe it. What started off as a whim a couple years ago, after listening to some pretty awesome pilots give some amazing talks here in Sun Valley at the PWC, I decided to start a little podcast and look at how it's grown and thank you all for making it what it is. Thank you for your donations, thanks to Miles Connolly who has been helping me edit these. It takes a lot of time and a lot of hours, but it's totally worth it and yeah, thank you so much for supporting the show. One little quick bit of housekeeping, as I mentioned on the last couple, we are doing a show where Bill Belcourt is going to host the podcast.
I'm going to go down and visit him right after the holidays, right around New Year's and bring him your questions. So I'm still taking questions on that, if you've got a question for the Yoda of the sky, Bill Belcourt, who is episode one. If you haven't caught that one, please go back and check it out. It was actually just a recording. We recorded a conversation I had with him for when we were making 500 miles to nowhere a few years back down in Salt Lake City. So this guy, when Bill opens his mouth, it's just like you just got to love him. Lock it deep in your brain and remember what he says. He has an amazing way to talk about the sport that we all love. So yeah, some of your questions, I'll fire them off down to Bill and he will be hosting a future episode of The Cloud-Based Mayhem. Some of you are probably familiar with Malcolm Gladwell's outliers, kind of stories of success and how people become really good.
And one of the things I love about paragliding is that age doesn't seem to matter too much. The guys that really crush it. On the PWC are typically way past their physical prime. Guys in their 50s and late 40s are very often the guys to beat. And that really encourages me because I'm 44 and going into an ex-Alps year, but certainly past my physical prime. But it's just something I find really encouraging about the sport that you don't have to be young and super strong to really excel at flying. However, there are the outliers. And this conversation with Mickey Siegel is one of those. Mickey started flying when he was 13, I believe, or maybe even younger.
And he's been chasing it hard. I first met Mickey here at the PWC in 2012 where he got fourth. I think he was 24 at the time. Just a phenomenal pilot. He's a test pilot for gin. We talk quite a bit about that. Talk about what happened with the gin factory last year. The new CCC rules. And what that's going to be doing for the development of wings. How valuable mentors are in the sport. Choosing the right wing for the task. All kinds of really terrific things. Talk a lot about the Swiss League. Something I wish we had an equivalent of here in the States. They just produce incredible pilot after incredible pilot. Mostly because they're flying with some of the best pilots in the world on a regular basis.
So we talk about a lot of the things that make a pilot great. And Mickey is certainly one of those. So I think you're going to enjoy this. Without further ado, please enjoy this conversation with Michael AKA Mickey Siegel.
Mickey, this is awesome to have you on the show, man. It's really cool to connect with you here. I think it's been almost a year since I saw you in person. I'd rather do this in person. But we are on opposite sides of the planet. Where are you and what are you doing?
Yeah, hello and thank you for having me on the show. I'm currently in Korea for testing new paragliders. So yeah, it's really around the world.
You guys got a new wing coming out or can you not even tell me?
Yeah, partly I can tell you. We're working on the Boomerang 11 for the next Superfinal. But also the most important actually is the Explorer. It's a lightweight high ENB glider that we will bring out within this year.
Oh, very cool. Will that be, you're kind of like hike and fly. You know, I'm not super familiar with Jin product. But is that kind of going to be your middle range hike and fly glider?
Exactly, exactly. So we already have the Cheeto that people were flying during the XOPS. And we have the Yeti, which is an ENA. It's a glider, which is quite light, but we missed something in between. And that's why we thought that this glider will be perfect. It's called Explorer and that's exactly what it's meant to be for traveling because it's light. But also you just go and explore new things, new places where you've never been before.
And will this kind of be similar performance as the Carrera? Is that kind of what it mimics?
Exactly. So we started quite early with this project. And we started with the Carrera. And now we made, I don't know how many prototypes, six, seven more prototypes with different profiles and line arrangements and trimmings. And now it's a completely different glider. But yeah, performance is pretty much the same like Carrera, maybe a little bit better.
Okay. Yeah, because I got up close and personal with it. I was on the Carrera with Will Gadd on the Rockies Traverse. I don't know if you ever got to see that film, but he was on the Carrera and it's quite a lovely glider. I want to ask you some more stuff about Ginn. So what's your, I know you've been a pilot for them for a long time, but tell me a little bit about that history. We'll get into your personal history too, but I know Ginn just had to close up shop and reopen in a new place. Has that transition taken place? And how much time do you spend out there?
Last year was really a difficult one. We used to produce in two places. One was in China and the other one was in North Korea. The idea to produce in North Korea started maybe 10 years ago. And it was actually not because of price or because of something like this. It was more because everybody had hoped to reunion the North and the South of Korea again. This was the original idea. But of course for us, it was also excellent. When the gliders left the factory, it took three hours to get them here to the office. So we could easily finish a glider in the morning, send the files there. And as soon as the glider was ready, we could fly it.
So we don't have to send it by airplane or something like this. It was just perfect. Then all of, they closed the factory from one day to the other. So we lost all the material. We lost all the machines. And we never will get this back probably. So this is, right now we think it's just closed and it will never open again. That was a huge problem for us. And not only for Jing gliders, but for many Korean companies, they lost everything. Because some of them were producing only in North Korea. And they, yeah, they, they're gone now. So we were quite lucky. We had another facility in China. But there we were mainly producing for other companies like Skywalk and so on.
So we could get them to other places. And now we produce only Jing gliders in this factory in China. Did you ever visit
the other factory? Did you ever get to go to North Korea?
I always wanted to. But it wasn't possible. Because I usually, or until this year, I stayed here only two or three weeks in a row. And there was no time. So I wanted to go there. Thorsen was there. And he said it's, it's, the factory itself was nice because it was built by Jing gliders. But to go there and the controls you get to, you have to, you have to give your, your cell phone, there are no cameras and so on and so on. Or if you have to check what you make. So, yeah, it sounded pretty special.
Yeah, that, that must be, that must be wild. What is your, what is your role there? And give me a little brief about what Thorsen does as well. Are you, are you a test pilot for Jing? Are you, how does, how does that all work?
Yeah, I, first I got in as a test pilot. And I, I did mainly, mainly the competition gliders like the boomerang series or sometimes also a little bit of tandem or GTO. But, and because I was studying and this, this last year I finished university and I was looking for a job. And then Jing glider said, Hey, why don't you start to work for us? And now I, I'm working for them in as a test pilot, like part of the R and D, but also in the marketing and sales. Is that, what was your degree? Is your degree engineering? Not at all. It's, I, I studied geography and sports. Okay. Something completely different.
So the
marketing side, maybe more so.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I will get into it more and more, I think.
So this is, this is now your, your work. Is it competitions obviously still, and, but, but also R and D for, for gin.
Yes. So I'll help. I help with the development of, of the new products. Like, like, like for, for now the, the Explorer or Boomerang 11, but also with the harnesses. Quite a big part of my job is the, the communication with the dealers. Of course, in Europe, because I'm based in Europe, when they have questions, when they have problems or so, they, they usually, they get now to me and I, I try to communicate with them and find a solution for their problems.
Okay. Okay. So let's, let, if I, if any of this is wrong, let me know. I just was reading up on you, obviously getting ready to, to talk to you and you're 29. Is that right? 29, 30. Yeah. Okay. And you, you started flying in 2003 and, you know, from, from looking at your results, it wasn't long after that, that you were starting to shred on, you know, in the Swiss league, which is about as hard as it gets other than the PWC maybe. And some of these kinds of things. So rewind the clock for me a little bit. What was the impetus? What got you into flying? And then how did you get so good? So fast? Yeah,
my parents got a, they had a paragliding school. So ever since I, I was on the takeoff in a landing field and so on. And so, um, I was almost forced to start paragliding.
Perfect. That makes it easy.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, I, I, I think that that would be a hard time for my dad if I wouldn't have started paragliding. And for me, it was, was quite nice. So, um, yeah, I, I did a lot of flights because, uh, they were for free. The material was for free. So, uh, this was awesome. So the support I got from my parents was, was crazy. And, um, it also, the problem was, uh, I started with 15, but I, I wasn't allowed to make the exam before 16. So actually it was all under supervision of my, of my dad or another teacher. But already there, I made like six hour flights, something like this, uh, all around the valley and candlestick. So, yeah, it was, it was quite cool.
That's really cool. Um, then soon after I changed the glider from, I, I started with ENB gliders and then EN, I think even in school, I went to EN, ENC and soon after END, like, um, and I got to, to the advanced team. Um, they supported me with the first glider I got was, uh, Omega six. And this is still, you're still in your teens.
You're at 19, 20 now. No, no, no. I think I was,
um, that was 16 or
17. Oh, wow. You're really young. Okay. Okay.
Yeah. Yeah. So they got me in this team and it was, uh, well, I still had to pay for the glider, but it was, it was not very much. So, uh, and then with the team, it was just, this was awesome because there were, I, maybe you remember Stefan Schmucker. Yeah, of course. Um, he was one of my best friends and we were in the same team. And with Krigel, Krigel, it was perfect. I mean, he is such a nice guy. And with those two, I had so much fun and then we always push. So Krigel was for sure the best, but we tried to reach him. Uh, and I think that was really what, what, what got us better and better. Hmm.
I, I want to know more about the Swiss league because it's, I, I was, you know, remember I wasn't too long ago, I was trying to fly with you in the Swiss league and I, I didn't have a wing or something. You were going to lend me an ice speakers. I was going to go fly, but, but, um, you know, I've kind of followed it. This is something that, you know, we just don't have, there's a league out in California. Um, but it's not very serious. It's really more recreational and for fun. Um, when I look at your, the Swiss league, there's the, and it, because I don't speak German, I don't know exactly, but there's like the a, a group and the a plus group and the, you know, and, and every, the names on there are just, you know, they, they are the names really in, in, in paragliding. Is this, I mean, can you, uh, place a lot of the success with the Swiss pilots on your training regimen?
Is that, you know, is that what's creating so many good Swiss pilots? Is it the league?
Yeah. Also. Yeah. I, I think that's part of, is the, but I think it's not only that, it's just like, I, the problem is I cannot tell you why someone is successful. I mean, now it's more Swiss are quite bad at the moment and the French are much better. But I cannot tell you why it's like this or why some Swiss pilots are very good. Sometimes it's like Crickle is always very good, but, um, he's also flying every day. But on the other hand, Stefan Borgenthaler, who is also a really good pilot or Stefan Meese, he's, they they fly their competition gliders only competition and stefan weiss never joins the swiss uh it's never on a swiss league cup so these uh frequent competitions we have because he's always working as a tandem pilot so i cannot tell you why but for sure the swiss league is good for the young pilots so we take them there it's like a training we help them quite a lot and we try to do it's like a small family so the youngsters coming and we take care of them and
what what is it define what that means by taking care of them does that mean there's money available to them or you know kind of travel expenses or is it more just a mentor program it's
a little bit of of everything so um they if for example if they're students they get the first year they get all the um i think most of the competitions paid and later it's it depends on your qualifications so the best five pilots they get paid like when i go to to a world cup i get paid a little bit of this but also for the youngsters they they also get paid a little bit but in addition we have um we support them at the at the competition so we help them to to with task briefings debriefings uh and also when sometimes you have to put in uh turn points to to help them how to put them in and deal with their gps
okay okay i got you so you mentioned stefan who's you know an incredible and he's has so many incredible results is it could you as a swiss pilot could you make a living like if you didn't have the job with jen could you make a living just off competitions or no it's not that much support oh
no no no way sometimes it pays the cost for the travel but only like when when i'm going to to brazil it pays the cost for the flight okay so that's it so
even somebody like Chrigel has responsibilities other other means to make money he's not doing it just from paragliding um
well i guess he could be doing
it through guiding and tandems and
what's exactly that that's how he does so he he has um quite i think he has quite uh nice sponsors but just because of the money from from the swiss league or or this will not work in for him changing
gears here a little bit only because i know your hometown which uh the swiss alps are all of all of them magnificent but you live in kind of stag and if i screwed up the pronunciation there i apologize in advance but it's just unbelievable it's just like waterfall heaven gorgeous uh just uh south of of interlock and what a spectacular place is that your favorite place to fly or where is your favorite place to fly i cannot tell i it's sun valley ah where where you got forth you took
that yeah that was uh that was my first PWC that was it yeah that was uh this is a pretty amazing spot isn't it
yeah it's awesome but um to be to be honest i don't have uh like like the flying spot but because there's so many nice places but it's it's all different i mean brazil is awesome when you go uh to colombia it's amazing flying but candlestick is really really nice and it's it's just something special and i even if i fly there every day when i when i'm at home it's it every day is different and it's you can do easy soaring in the evening for two or three hours with uh yeah as a as a as a as a beginner with 10 flights or you can go in the in the most wildly side you can ever imagine there and it's just offers so so great flying i think that's part
of why i got good good good at paragliding is because it's wild so you you have to control your glide quite well and yeah as you said the the landscape is spectacular it's just you you go out and uh it's just just nice i
think i think what you said there that one of the reasons you got good fast is because of that that area it really that does really make sense to me because it's you know you're you're in the big alps and it's and it's radical isn't it i mean there's there's a lot going on there it's very complicated you're just one ridge over from the valis and you're very close to the grimsel and and uh yeah there's i mean there's it's a complicated area to fly yeah
yeah yeah so it's it's nice on the other hand it's important to learn with with the valley breezes and the wind systems and so on but um this year we had the world cup in saint andre in southern france and there i was completely lost so for me it wasn't working at all because there the valley winds it was not working the way i expected so the the french they went on places i said no way it's gonna work there i went where i thought the thermals will be and there was nothing but lease i didn't so it's interesting for me it works quite well to flying in in switzerland of course but also austria italy but um yeah sometimes it's also not working and then i'm lost a little bit so of course i got good because of that but also sometimes i get it's like a trap
do you tell
me about your personal flying do you is most you like you said stefan mostly just flies competition because he works the rest of the time do you how do you split your time how much is spent just free flying versus comps uh you know do you chase huge distances are you are you you know are you somebody that like tries to chase records down in brazil or you know i don't know much about your personal flying it's
a little bit of all so i started i started to do more and more uh hiking
so this is great because uh you do something for yourself and then you have an awesome flight so i like this quite a lot especially in autumn when there are in europe the thermals in autumn are usually in the in the higher mountains so you there are no cable cars so you have to walk up and this is just great but i i like to do everything so in switzerland it depends how much i work or how much i've been flying so if i've been testing you know two weeks i've been two weeks in or three weeks in korea and i've been flying every day then when i get home i i don't fly at all then i go biking or skiing or snowboarding or whatever but if the if the weather is good we we we try to we try to make big distances in fiesh or nisen or wherever i love it do you um what is your longest flight
yeah that's a pity last year we went for uh we tried to break the order break but make the first 300 f8 triangle in in switzerland and yeah we went from we started in fiesh went up to the grimsel and back down to chamonix yep
oh i remember those flights that was awesome that's right i saw that on x contest that was gorgeous yeah
it was great but then i made a or i yeah it was quite of a mistake so i couldn't push enough to the north because this is not working well in the north you mean to go tag to go
tag up in the sauce yeah
the problem was there there is um in summer there is always the north north wind coming in i made a mistake and i i was washed down so i had to i was forced to go back to the to the valleys while kuffer and um jan sterren they they continue to push north and i made i made a mistake there and um yeah i couldn't go there yeah
jan jan sterren is uh somebody i've been watching for years in that neck of the world woods he does some really terrific terrific triangles doesn't he yeah
so then um i went back to the valleys and from this point where i turned i was sure i will not make the 300 because i was calculating and in the end i missed five five five kilometers that's
still a monster though well congratulations yeah
well it was like you know this flight you land and everybody said oh that was an amazing flight and you are oh yeah i'm not so happy
the dangers of chasing numbers isn't it yeah exactly a couple years ago that would have been like oh my god that was epic uh mickey uh if you if you have accidents or like if you had any kind of scary situations or accidents that have ever uh plagued you or come about in your in your career since 2003 that have kind of like i don't know if they set you back or if they've been if they've been well let's if you had any let's start with there yeah
um personally no i never had any big accident well i hurt my finger or my my uh my foot or something like this but um i i didn't have any big accident so far luckily so i'm a happy guy right
good and and what about um i remember you know you and i were part of a a very bad accident with a very good friend of yours in mexico have any of those kind of situations ever impacted your own flight or anything like that yeah i think it's it's it's it's it's it's uh
yeah this this uh did influence me quite a lot mexico mexico is quite a bad place for me because um in 2009 i think that was my my best friend died died there uh during the world worlds this was crazy because we we used to fly quite a lot together and as he was a really good pilot so you question yourself why did this happen or i'm sure this can also happen to me and yeah this was really a setback and then when was we were in mexico for my first world cup i was in mexico um there was a during the training day that um rafa rafa lucas um had his crash on the on the training day and i i landed there and he was already dead and i had to wait there for i think two hours until the until the until the rescue team came and yeah this was also a very nice situation so um this was also quite tough for me yeah when
you say it was quite tough for you like i mean obviously that kind of accidents that kind of thing are really tough are you much are you more mindful of the risk after these kind of things are you more careful or uh is it something you kind of just you mourn and then you move on yeah
it's difficult so i remember for example in mexico the first uh first day it was a a few days ago where i was like i'm gonna do this and i'm gonna do that i'm gonna do that and then um one day later was a rest day because yeah he died so we said let's stop and then on the first day after i i went to land really early so i just didn't feel well in the air and i thought oh no it's too bumpy and i hate it yeah it's it's this even though i know it's um well it may happen to everyone but it's like oh no i take it slowly from now on but after a while i started to start to push again sure do
you do you think there's kind of a different setting that that pilots at your level have you know in other what i'm trying to get at is like you know to get to that level where you're you know kind of frequently top 10 and in the world is it is it is it a different approach to risk is it a different approach to training is it talent uh obviously all these things play a factor but i think with you you know you're you're in the midst uh all the time of of some really really good pilots being involved with the swiss league and just just being in switzerland just being where you where you live are there some are there some factors there you think that could be uh you know for our audience some factors there that you've you've kind of pointed out that you you can share uh with the audience about kind of what is is it a personality type like for example when i was i think day two of the x-ops i was hiking down off the layer not sorry it wasn't the laramus which one was ash out turn point with like duragati and michael vichy and i was having a really great conversation with michael vichy about uh you know that he's an engineer and i you know we find a lot of pilots a lot of really good pilots that are engineers and that's always kind of fascinated me uh-huh
um i to be honest i have no idea the thing is for example in switzerland is high educated people like um uh stefan wies is a biologist but there are so or michael vichy engineer adrian hagen also engineer and so on and so on but there are also quite a lot of pilots like um like critical mauer they didn't go to to a higher school or his brother either so it's it's also it doesn't mean that you have to have a good education for example it also can could be the diff uh the other side that they the others have more time to fly so what i see is at least in switzerland the pilots that are good now in some period of their life they had a lot of time to fly so they could try train a lot they could fly a lot they get a lot of experience to know uh how thermals work how to climb well and and to see where to go so i think that helps quite a lot and it's same in switzerland there are big parallels between cross country flying and world cup flying so if you're good in in cross country you're usually also good in in world cup because you you know how to choose the lines and on the other hand if you're good in world cup then you know how to fly fast and that helps you to go for bigger distances one
of the uh one of the questions that i get quite frequently that comes through is when people are just discovering competition and not at the world cup level but they're just discovering you know like they're going to the monarchies and that kind of thing or maybe league events and they're they're able to hang on to the league gaggle for you know one or two climbs or three climbs or maybe four climbs and then they inevitably they lose them and they can't reel them back in um you know so the terminology i got in the question was you know how do you go from kind of an also ran to top 10 is that is that simply a matter of hours or is that uh you know when in your own development from 2003 and you kind of coming up you know looking at your results on the swiss league page you know there was obviously there was you know some great results but then some really great results like there was almost kind of an aha moment it seemed like about 2009 i think you won swiss league three years in a row was there was there something you really put together there or was that just literally a matter of flying 300 hours a year or whatever you're doing and i
think then um to win something it's it's a combination of other bit of everything actually so it's your mental strength so you you're you're your mind is in a good setting so you know i'm in a good mood i know i'm i i fly very good and i can beat the others that that's that's one part so you have to believe in yourself and then i think it works better than if you think ah today i'm not in a good mood and conditions are not very nice to fly today and if you say ah looks quite okay let's see if i i have to get the best out of these conditions and the others and that helps a lot so you're saying confidence yes exactly you need a lot of self confidence sure and the other is the material so i i saw for for me it's it's quite helpful if you well if you have not the best material you have to fly better than the others to keep up and
as soon as you then change the material to to material that is same or even better then you you will win so that happened to me after i changed from um boomerang seven to boomerang eight prototypes okay so that was the first time i won in colombia the world cup and then when i changed from boomerang x to boomerang nine it happened again so that that was really this these things so um you you have to have good good material otherwise you can we will
win the competition because in world cup now everybody has a good glider so if you if your glider is slightly less good than the others it's it's hard to win and the last thing you need to have is luck yeah
sure it's
it's so crazy when you when you fly and you just miss a thermal or or you know that the other one that wins the competition he just turned to to the left side and you turn to the right side he got a climb out and you bumped out i i think it's just luck um do you
train acro as well uh
a little bit yeah yes um yeah um the problem is i don't have enough time right but i i like it a lot so when i'm in switzerland we go a lot to lauterbrunn it's near the sure it's in the jungfrau region it's a really cool place to do acro yeah
beautiful that's a stunning place where everybody's hopping off the walls uh wingsuit base jumping all day long it's a yeah it's crazy what's
going on there yeah
yeah it's a wild spot i want to rewind a little bit mickey yeah because i kind of glossed over this because i wanted to get to my questions but you actually said a couple things early on that uh that i'm curious about you're in korea right now you're sounds like you're flying a lot what's the flying like there i don't know much about the flying in korea it's special okay that sounds interesting yeah
it's um it's an interesting place to fly and and also to live it's it's special also the the climate here is quite continental the thing is it's so close to china and we it's usually it's west wind so in that means in wintertime as i said you before it's getting really cold so from december to let's say art or april it's freezing cold means usually zero to minus 10 20 degrees but still then the thermals are working good but you can imagine i i remember the first time i was here in wintertime and chin gave me it was a carrera prototype i took off in strong wind and it got even stronger and you're there hanging there it you're the moment you take off you're cold right and then it's just freezing cold it's bumpy
and i was just climbing climbing climbing and i was desperately i wanted desperately to go down but it was impossible so as soon as i started the spiral my face hurt so much i couldn't so i had to stop the spiral and yeah that's it i was hanging there for half an hour at least trying to go down and in the end i just put my arms together push the speed bar and hope for the best
with jen probably laughing on the ground the whole the whole way welcome to korea yes
so uh actually yeah he was standing in the landing in the car in a heated car and um when i landed he came to me and hey michael how is the glider i said here is your glider i want to get in the car and don't ask me ever again if i come back in wintertime so
that's it that's a great lead into my my other question we kind of glossed over this but i imagine and we did because i i know what a test pilot is but i imagine a lot of our audience doesn't what what is what does that mean being a test pilot virgin and uh you know what is it involved does that just mean you're a guinea pig or uh tell us more about what it means to be a test pilot yeah
i i think it's it's similar to in virgin or ozone or advanced i think that's quite the same so i'm probably the we work a little bit different but um it's i guess it's basically the same sometimes it's a tough job sometimes it's a really nice job because um we go to fly uh every good good day so this is awesome i mean we can do our hobby as a job the thing is you you you are also involved in the rmd so that means in the concept so you say um i would like to have the glider like this and this so um let's say now we're working also on a new c class so jim asks us how would you like to have the c class and then we talk about aspect ratio we talk about line concepts how we'd like to have the diagonals and um so then he's designing a glider he makes the profiles and we get the glider we pull up first in the landing to see if everything is correct then go up to the mountain and then it's all about flying trimming you top land you trim again you fly you compare uh you change the glider as soon as as you you like the handling of a glider you start also to do the maneuvers because um this is quite important i'm not a very brave person so i start to do very slow with the maneuvers so i try first i try trim speed collapses depends also on the glider class i mean with e and a b and sometimes also with c gliders i'm okay to do overground the maneuvers um when i know the glider
so even last last year i think i certified the the gto to extra small overground because the collapses are reliable so i can pull full i can push full speed i collapse and i see i push i pull a little bit and i get like 60 percent collapse i push speed bar again i pull same it's same collapse this i like quite a lot because it it's reliable um what i hate is sometimes with the competition glider you pull and you get 30 percent collapse you pull again and you get 80 and this you can because of this you can get in really nasty situations so um yeah the reliable gliders i'm happy also to test over ground but it's always like take care what you do and and so on because even on a on a e and a or b prototype when you pull too much you can get in these situations sure um
i imagine that's that's probably making you a quite a bit better pilot to to you know to uh to make bad things happen especially the comp level gliders you know which i think we're all a little hesitant to do these days um imagine that's doing a couple things one it's building a lot of respect for not letting that ever happen in a real world situation but it's also probably giving you quite a bit of confidence that if it does you've seen it before
yeah yeah this is for sure i mean um for me the it was quite fun because the i test i started to test the maneuvers in general with the boomerang 9 small size uh with the boomerang 9 and um this was a nasty glider so um yeah i had some situations i never thought i can handle them at all so like
i was like oh my gosh how do i do this i just did this with my wrist like you know the wrist is like a wrist like a wrist like hell and i never went into the water and of course i got i built some confidence with that but on the other side you know what happens so it's also also like oh yeah and then when you have a big harness like a cocoon harness with a lot of ballast and then you you will have your turning behavior in the harness will be completely different so you think yeah if
to control at all so um of course i i know i can handle quite well if something happens but you also know that sometimes it's just not going the way you'd like i
imagine um maybe it sounds like and i don't pay a ton of attention to this stuff so i can't speak with any authority about this because i'm not a rules guy and i don't really understand you know how gliders are are built but i imagine i understand with the new um CCC rules that it's going to encourage maybe more brands to make comp gliders because for the last few years really it's just been gin and and naviac and ozone so so that's that has to be a good thing but i imagine also that i imagine there's a lot of pressure on you guys uh at the at the comp end of things not not so much on the lower level wings because people i think are you know get pretty brand oriented and and they're loyal but at the comp level scene what we saw a couple years ago and you're more familiar with this than i am i'm pretty new to the comp scene but you know the enzo 2 came out and naviac lost all their pilots and you guys lost a ton and everybody's flying you know the enzo 2 um and uh so i imagine there's you know is there is there quite a bit of i don't know is there quite a bit of stress on you guys to uh to to build a because like you said if it's a two or three um difference you know it's pretty hard to win yeah
yeah yeah there is quite a lot of pressure on that um this for sure and also i think this is why other brands don't bring out their gliders it's the problem is not only um it's not only that you have to be able to to to produce or to make a design a glider that has enough performance it's also that uh it's it's really a lot of money we put into this yeah and smaller brands are just not able to do this and you have to be sure that it's at least as good as enzo 2 because if it's not then why should they buy it sure and um yeah there's quite a lot of pressure but for for us it's it's still okay i think in the uh in a worse situation uh in a worse situation than we are because we are almost same with the boomerang boomerang 10 it was okay to fly um
and the other one i don't think it's okay to make it little bit shorter than that but
sometimes we were even better i mean in in strong conditions and also when we had good final glides which means we we arrived high enough we we were faster so this was also nice but um yeah it's getting tough ozone is pushing quite a lot and it's not easy to keep up especially because you cannot only focus on competition wings i mean you don't you don't get money with competition gliders it's just for for prestige and also for the rmd but you you you make the money with enb and c gliders and not with not with uh not with the comp gliders so
the argument that that i hear a lot is that you know that if you're building comp wings you know so ozone you mivic um you know then that technology and because you're putting so much money and effort and energy into these really you know amazing ships that gets passed on down through the brand you know all the way down to the teaching gliders but then you see companies like uh nova you know just killing it with their you know with their mentor and um and other companies that they don't even try with the with the comp level and the things and they seem to be building really good b's and c's what's the incentive for jen and and russ and is it is it just what you said just prestige or do do you believe companies really do have to go into the comp end of things to build really great lower level gliders yeah
it's it's a difficult this is a really difficult question i also ask myself if if um if it's good that we push so much energy into this however i have to say it's um the competition gliders are now we're working of course now we work on on the competition gliders but it's maybe 10 of our work for sure for us it's um i think what we're doing is we're working on the competition gliders and we're when we saw what what happened with the technology most of it came from from competition gliders with the rigid fall with the shark nose then with the three cell blocks four cell blocks four liners three liner two liner so all of this came from from from brands like basically from advance where they were good in competition from also no chin so this this is something the others they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they uh they follow later and they're making it good also for the uh b and c or a gliders but it's it's the the other brands who who developed it and the others just taking it so i think it's it's good that there are still some brands doing the competition gliders i
heard uh this this summer there were some really big flights going down uh down in wyoming and in utah and you know bill belcourt Nick Greece and some of those guys were pushing really hard uh and uh bill and i think chris golly and and uh matt datum they had a day where they went really big over the back of the wasatch heading out towards colorado and uh they were all pretty much together for most of the day you know on purpose and you know they weren't racing they were just they were just trying to go big the very end of the day the day's kind of dying uh matt datum was on an alpina and the other two i believe were on enzo and uh and because he was just on a on a wing that didn't have glide uh you know he he went down kind of a no man's land and and had to you know because it was like this really low angle they had just made it over this peak had this really low angle glide where he just couldn't couldn't do it the other two glided all the way out to the road or close to the road and then then matt had this terrifically bad retrieve and you know a couple weeks later bill was up here flying with
um you know that if you have the hours if you have the time if you have the skill you know 95 of the time you need the performance and only five percent of the time you need the passive safety obviously competition level wings don't have a lot of passive safety at all um but i've always made this argument that you know when i'm flying big lines here or you know like when i was up in alaska that kind of thing like i i feel more safe on my say an example would be like an ice peak six you know a really kind of bomb proof uh two liner ish wing um and i'm not recommending this to the listeners that this is what they need to jump onto that's not what i'm trying to get to here what i'm trying to say is that you know depending on where you fly and you fly big lines in big mountains that are very complicated around your home and kind of do you also feel that way that you would you rather be flying on a on a on a wing that has you know incredible bar performance really fast place that you can get out of with a lot of wind um yes it doesn't have the passive safety but you've got the hours you've got the experience uh do you feel would you feel more safe on that or would you feel more safe on a carrera
tough
question um i for me i i choose the i will would like to choose the glider from uh for what i for what my goal is so that means if i for example if i take off in fiesch or somewhere in switzerland and i want to fly a big distance so then i need the i need the best glider available so it means the most performance because um at the end of the day for example if i take a carrera and let's say i make a really good flight i take the motor out of it and i get 250 then i'm okay i mean it's a really nice flight it's also big distance but then i question myself how far could i have been flying could i have been gone with uh with the boomerang for example
so as i go for not for numbers but i want to go the best possible i would like also to have the best possible gliders in this situation but if if i am for example uh go to like say pakistan or or somewhere there i would rather have a carrera because it's just too it's risky it's also yeah when you get into lee side or when you have a landing and you need with the comp gliders you
and things like that so the stalls and it's not only that i think i feel same safe on on a carrera that i feel on the boomerang in the air so i i don't feel i don't feel that i have more safety when i when i fly in bumpy conditions or on a on a lower en glider but i know that when i when it comes to to the landing or when i have a big to like a huge uh collapse and twist so on that it will probably handle the en the lower en glider easier what
aspect of flying i'm jumping here a little bit but what what aspect of flying do you do you get most excited about do you do you most enjoy is it the is it the comps flying with your friends is it the league is it is it just flying around your home is it waga what do you like the best i
like everything so and i i don't like too much of of one thing so that means after one week of competition flying i i'm done with it i don't like competition flying anymore so then i i rather walk up to three four hours somewhere in the mountain i take off there early in the morning first sunlight and i can do a soaring session so this is crazy i mean last time one of my best flights was um in summer we walked up with jerome to a in candlestick my hometown and we slept there during night and in the morning at seven the wind was quite strong so we took off i took off with the gto and i was able to soar up more than thousand meters so i was on this mountain that you usually it's not easy to climb up during the day when when there are thermals but i think never no one ever soared up this hill this month so this was crazy because i was there at nine o 'clock in the morning and i was able to soar up more than thousand meters in the morning and i was like what the hell is going on so this was crazy but also i mean when i can go and with no shoes in the sand soaring somewhere and do some walker this is crazy as well this is awesome when
i was when i was a very early pilot that just reminded me of uh let's see called the shill torn i believe over in leuchterbad you know the the james bond thing at the top uh my buddy and i were very low hours pilot we were just learning how to do cross country and uh and he'd been up there and flown off and really wanted to show it to him you know it's outrageous expensive you know to go up there we went up yeah and the cloud was was below the peak tops and there was almost no wind you know it's quite a committing forward up there with all that talus and you're just throwing yourself off into oblivion and and we and we we made it back to interlocking which is nothing it's like 40k oh you know yeah i think we took off at you know 9 a.m or 8 30 whenever they opened that thing we were first up and it's just those kind of flights really they stay with you don't they i mean they it doesn't have to be the biggest or the best it has you know it's exactly do i uh i i sense you've got this hike and fly bug do i do i uh do i see an X-Alps in your future yeah
also i i thought a lot about it but um for me it's uh time wise and money wise no not an option at the moment yeah so i don't have enough time to train and also don't have enough money to to run this thing so i don't have enough money to do all these things so what i see now is you know it's for me it's i'm a really competitive pilot or person as well so if i do something i i'd like to push to to what is possible and um then when when i see now with two of my good friends do like a critical maurer or uh aron and they only do paragliding so they train every day they uh
every day they what they do is crazy and i don't have the time and not the money to do the same and then i would be disappointed in myself if i if i will end up yeah three or four days later than they are
yeah they they uh i don't know maybe this isn't even a fair question but it's it's it's interesting so no i want to ask you anyway it's no sweat no non-swiss has ever won the X-Alps and so part of that's kind of unfair because you have Chrigel who's just in a completely different category that what he's won four of them already but um you know you guys you know as you as you said this year um you know the swiss team isn't dominating this year it's been the french and you know that kind of shifts back and forth depending on wings and training and luck and all the things we've already pointed out but what is it about the swiss and the X-Alps
difficult to say one guess could be that uh um that the conditions in austria and switzerland it's two-third of of the distance you have to do probably uh it's the same condition as in switzerland so it's for us maybe easier to fly in these conditions so we know better where to go there's just one explanation i i i
don't know so kind of like home home court advantage you were talking about earlier that you know like when you went down to san andre which i've only flown there a little bit but the the french really kind of had an advantage there because it's just such a unique i mean all the alps have their own little unique unique quirks don't they but i i that makes sense so a little bit more of a home field advantage maybe for for a good section of the course probably
yes yeah yeah cool
mickey this is great i really appreciate it is there anything you'd like to uh to add before we wind things down here oh i know i know i really wanted to ask you this um when you when you think back to your when you started you know when you're 15 with your dad back in 2003 or maybe just that first kind of year or two what advice do you wish you would have received back then or something that maybe uh you didn't get or you didn't maybe heed you know looking back you haven't had any personal injuries but you've seen some is there has there ever been any been has there ever been kind of like man i wish i would have done that differently uh
no flying wise i could not say no for me the it worked out really good maybe if there are other young pilots um i can only suggest not to fly every day because uh yeah for me it was not so easy because um i i dropped all the other hobbies and also with the friends in school that was also not so easy because on the weekends when it's good weather you go out and i think what i can only say to to all pilots what is the most important is that that you have fun when you're flying and as soon as as you as it's not fun anymore and you're not enjoying your flight you have to go to land because then uh easier conditions are not nice anymore or yeah so this is the most important to have fun when you fly great
well that's a that's a perfect ending let's end it on that oh you know what i'd love to do actually uh i used to i used to end all these shows with uh with the proust questionnaire which is i find endlessly entertaining so these are just a little little quick questions i'll fire you up and i'll see you next time bye at you answer them however you want you don't have to if you don't want to you don't have to but uh we'll end it on that uh what is your favorite word
amazing yeah
that's a good one amazing is amazing uh and your your least favorite word uh
it's not possible ah or not how you say it's like impossible i'm sure yeah impossible yeah uh
what turns you on what turns you off nice
girls turn me off on and um sorry misspelling and what turns me off not nice girls bad flying okay there you go i can i cannot say that there are no there are no uh bad looking girls
excellent oh good answer dude good answer your parents would be proud uh yes uh what sound or noise do you love and what sound or noise do you well hate's a powerful word but do you not like um
i like the the noise of wind quite a lot so when i'm not flying for example when i'm somewhere in the in a forest and i hear the sound of of wind it's nice um i don't like the sound of cranes when they pass by okay
gotcha uh what is your favorite curse word what's that what's your favorite swear word shit ah good one uh what profession other than your own would you like to attempt
like
a doctor i would say like medicine oh
okay uh and what profession would you not like to do oh
yeah i don't want to hurt someone's feelings but um no uh so like i don't like to clean the how you say where the wastewater is going sewer yeah probably this one yeah that would that'd be rough i hate the smell yeah
that would that would be rough okay final one buddy and then you're off and yeah i'll let you go fly for the day thank you again for doing this if heaven exists what would you like to hear god say when you arrive at the pearly gates welcome
i i'll let you in even though i know what you did come
on in mickey there's a space for you
for you for you perfect all the stickers are here as well
perfect love it mickey thanks so much man i appreciate it that was uh that was a real honor to get to talk to you i hope we get to see each other at cloud base here again shortly and uh have fun in korea hope you best of luck with developing your new wings and uh give my best to jim yeah
thank you very much and i hope to see you soon all right buddy love to see you too bye bye cheers man bye
well
i hope you enjoyed that cool conversation with a very cool cat uh hope i get to spend some time with mickey here soon at cloud base uh as again and top of the show i'll see you next time bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye show a reminder that i'm taking questions for bill belcourt just shoot me an email via the cloudbase mayhem.com or uh hit me up on facebook or wherever you like to communicate and i'll get those down in front of bill here right after the holidays i got a great talk coming up for you in two weeks with russ ogden you guys are gonna love this the uh jedi at ozone and an incredible PWC pilot incredible guy he we actually actually brought a lot of your questions to him and always such a treat to hear russ's ideas on on flying and flying well as always all we ask for is a buck a show if you got something out of this one or one of the previous episodes in fact the last episode with larry tudor uh legend hang glider probably the most popular show we've had thus far that one just got went crazy all over the interwebs uh if you haven't listened to that one you have to some of those stories are just phenomenal but yeah if you got something out of this one or one of the previous shows uh send us a buck you can do that and we'll see you next time thank you so much and we will see you on the next one cheers