Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloudbase Mayhem. I want to apologize first and foremost for the delay. I had shoulder surgery here about three weeks ago due to a mountain biking accident, and that has kind of put me off the eight ball here a little bit, but happy to get back to it. Glad to get back to it. This is a great talk with Kelly Farina and his new book, Mastering Paragliding, which you'll see from the talk is a must-have. Before we get into that, just a few things that I wanted to come back around to. In a couple episodes back, I talked about an accident we had here in Sun Valley and the rescue that came out of that that went really, really well. Some of the things we learned. There's actually an article right now in my column in the current issue of Cross Country that I encourage you to read if you haven't about that rescue and what we did right and what we learned from it.
And also, there's another one, almost the same article. Coming out in the next issue of USHPA. So get your hands on one of those, read about that. But I've had a lot of questions about insurance and asking me for links and what I think. I am absolutely no expert, but one of the things that we kind of went through in our debrief was talk about Life Flight and MetaJet. And I can't speak to our European audience because I don't know how it works over there, but I can speak to my audience here in North America. Just real quickly, what we learned. Number one, if you have travel insurance, that only works outside of the United States or Canada. So if you're flying near home, you need something other than typically other than your insurance, unless it's really bomb proof for Life Flight or MetaJet.
So number one, get yourself covered with one of those. It depends on what region you're in here in the in the kind of northwest. I'm in Idaho. We use Life Flight at 60 bucks a year. That's just brain dead. Stupid. You got to definitely have that. Next, if you fly with a spot or an in-reach, which hopefully all of you do, you all know that I am much more high on the in-reach on the Delorme in-reach. It's just a far, far superior device. It is slightly more expensive, but way worth it as we learned on that rescue. But if you use the Geo service, the Medivac service and the emergency return service that they offer, which you all should, the SAR one, the cheaper one. Has a very definite paragliding exclusion.
So don't you and you can change this right now. You know, you don't you don't have to wait for it to expire and then get the next one. But you definitely need what's called the Geo Medivac. It's 129 bucks a year. It covers paragliding. We had the discussion with them. Interestingly, they also said that they really like doing rescues a lot more with Delorme than spot again because of that two way communication. They just said it was much better. So take that for what it's worth. The next you need really good. If you're traveling out of the country, you need really good travel insurance. Very, very often your own insurance, your own health insurance isn't going to cover, you know, return of mortal remains. I realize this is getting into a black side of paragliding, but it doesn't cover often expatriating you back to your country for your, you know, if you want to get into a hospital back home, emergency returns often aren't covered.
So you need a separate. Travel insurance. And the best one I've found is through seven quarters with their extreme sports writer. I will put up a blog post on the cloud based mayhem that gives you all these links, but you can get it through my other company. The other website is offshoreodysseys.com. If you click on the member resources, you'll find it there. It's like two to three bucks a day. It's phenomenal. It covers like lost baggage. It covers a lot of emergency stuff. We've had a few things happen on our boat to members. You don't have to be going on the boat. You can be doing anything, including paragliding, hang gliding. I believe even base jumping is covered. So again, it's this one with the extreme sports writer. So if you're traveling outside of the country, that's what you need for that.
And then some combination of either global rescue, which is like 330 bucks a year or med jet assist, which is 240 bucks a year. This may not totally be applicable, but just, I guess what this is, what this means, this whole discussion is, is just make sure you're covered. That's what we learned in. That rescue, it just makes, you know, it's a little bit of money up front, but it will save you thousands and thousands and thousands or your family thousands. If you have something major, which hopefully will never happen. Part of making that never happen is this talk with Kelly Farina. We just had a great Skype conversation. Kelly's over in Thailand now, but he has just published through cross country, a book called Mastering Paragliding, which I read cover to cover. And then again, terrific book, very comprehensive.
I would call this the kind of the, the layman's guide to Burkhardt Martin's thermally thermal flying. So this isn't as technical, but it really covers a lot of concepts that were totally new to me. Like the four, four 90 rule, the three most common mistakes of paragliding, the concept of carving, which I had never heard before. A lot of things like that in this book that really helped paint that 3d picture that many of us struggle with a lot more clearly. So, uh, great talk, just some of the things that we get into is, you know, the importance of building a toolbox, the dangers of, uh, chasing numbers, um, when to move up on a wing, really good talk about the importance of being able to observe over glider performance, um, being able to observe and not worry about keeping the nose open is going to Trump a better glider time and time again.
And I think this is something that lower out hours pilots often mistakenly do as they move up. To a hotter wing way too fast. So when to move up, and even if you should great talk about that, God, the four second rule, why we talk about paragliding is a chess board, a really easy rule of thumb with speed to fly. I think a lot of people struggle with the McCready rule and speed to fly and how much bar to use, um, Kelly's rule on this, although he admits it's not scientific is just really easy. And I think it's great. So, um, some great concepts about great things to. Understand about phone. If you're flying in the Alps, um, uh, really good rule with Lee side flying, which I'd never heard before. So yeah, some fantastic stuff here.
I think you're going to get a lot out of this, whether you're a 10 hour pilot or you're a multi-thousand hour pilot. I really enjoyed this talk. So without further ado, please enjoy this conversation with Kelly Farina.
It's
great to have on the man. Thanks so much for your time. I have just, uh, read with. What eyes wide open your incredible book, which I want to get into here in a sec, but first I want to hear about, uh, where you are and why you're there and, uh, what, what are you doing?
I'm, uh, in Thailand at the moment for some kite surfing, uh, mainly hydrofoiling, but also some, uh, strapless wave riding
when the wind
comes on and
where in, where in Thailand, I know that area. I'm, uh,
I'm just south of, uh, who are him very close to where the boys. Do the time in dance off.
Yeah. Right. Okay. So Maddie senior and all those guys, they've got going over there. Are you, are you involved with them at all? Or are you just doing, I'm,
uh, I'm just doing my own thing down here. It's my time off at the moment.
Okay. And how long does that last? When do you, do you spend the winter down there? Is this something you've been doing for years or.
Yeah, for about for nine, 10 years now.
Oh, okay. That's really interesting. See, so I kind of came, you know, I started with a kite surfing business, still have that going. I've got this boat that goes around the world. And I'm not sure how familiar you are with that, but that's, that's kind of my, yeah. And, uh, you know, I, I got into kiting and then when I discovered paragliding, uh, that's all I ever wanted to do. And still is what I want to do. I mean, I still consider myself a kite surfer, but it sounds like, uh, you, you enjoy both.
Yeah, for sure, man. Especially with hydrofoiling now, it's just opened up, uh, all the light, lighter end of the spectrum. Yeah,
right. Of course. And, and, and where you are, it's, it's often pretty light. So that must be great. Yeah, it's pretty light,
exactly. Flat water, light.
Kelly, for our audience, uh, you know, you and I have never met, but I've had some, uh, very good friends go through the Alps and the Dolomites and Bassano and, and take some of your courses and stuff. But for those of the audience who, who don't know who you are, uh, or who haven't read your book, um, and, and most of this conversation is going to be about the book, of course, but give me a little bit of background, uh, who you are and, and, and what, what brought you to, to write this? This book and what gave you the, uh, kind of the background to, to, to be able to write such a comprehensive, uh, masterclass, let's call it in, in paragliding.
Wow. So really, uh, quite a long story, really. Um, so I've been skateboarding for half of my life when I was younger and that brought me to snowboarding, snowboarding brought me to the Alps. So I'm doing a quite short, comprehensive version of this really. Perfect. Uh, that brought me to the Alps. Where I saw paragliding for the first time, um, as soon as I saw it, then that pretty much made my mind up that I wanted to get into paragliding and I changed my lifestyle. Not a hell of a lot, cause I wasn't, uh, really doing that much then anyway, just bumming around. And then I ended up, um, just staying on, I was doing ski seasons and flying and then I just stayed on and this was back in 96 and,
um, yeah, I never left. I never left the Alps. After a while, I wasn't really having a lot of money cause I was just, uh, either sitting on a hill watching the weather change or, uh, flying and working a few hours a day just to, uh, feed myself and get myself a room. And, uh, one thing led to another and, um, I thought I'd give my, uh, give a go at competing. So I started in the British nationals. This was in 2001. I met a few boys that were coaching people. People were guiding people back then and thought, oh, why don't I do that? And that was back in 2002. I started that in Meyerhofen. It's actually a bit of a longer story about that, but, uh, just keep it short.
And, um, yeah, then it just went from strength to strength. And then I realized the reason why I wrote the book really is the reason why is because I saw that there was no structure in the sport. People were being pretty much flung out of school, uh, with no roadmap to how to get better. And, um, again, I mean, I was, all I was doing was flying up until about 2009. That was all I was doing. So I was competing. I had a short stint in the British national team and, um, it got to a point where I was getting a bit stale and I started another sport and there's nothing, uh, more eye opening them to be a new, but another sport. So I started something called Wing Chun. I talk about it in the book.
Now, uh, what I realized. Wing Chun is, it's a very black art and based on concepts. And these guys have been thinking about this black art for about 300 years, uh, way longer than we have with paragliding. And, uh, what they've basically done was to break their art down into concepts and to, um, do it in a rational, concise, step-by-step approach. Which is how I ended up getting the idea for the book really is to take the, uh, concepts that I learned from Wing Chun. And still do. And, uh, applied it to paragliding.
And here we are today. Uh, I've got the book in my hand now.
Yeah. So I, I really enjoyed this and clearly your, your book. Um, well, number one, it, there's a lot of concepts in this book that, you know, I've been around this sport now for a while. Not as long as you have, but, um, you know, done the X-Alps and done a lot of competing and, and, uh, and I've never instructed. So I really enjoyed how you use it. You take these concepts that are very ethereal, right? When we start to learn about paragliding. Well, you, this is just what you do. You thermal and then you glide and well, well shit, man. And that's not very helpful for a lot of folks. And so you've really broken it down. And there's a lot of concepts here that I'd never heard of. You know, like your, your four to nine, your, your 490 rule. Um, how did you get, was this just experiential?
You came up with this or were you, and, and is this, um, something you've been actively teaching for years? Or did this come out of this, you know, uh, studying this, this kind of what you call a black art and you've, and you thought, God, I've got to come up with some more concepts that can be easily broken down.
Well, what I noticed was that over the years, just screaming, turn tighter at people didn't actually, uh, bring anything in the end because, you know, people were saying like, well, how tight. So what I ended up doing was, um, I went on a cross country flight. This was back in 2009. This flight actually crystallized a lot of the stuff that's in the book. And, uh, I went on this cross country flight and what I did, I just went on autopilot for about three hours, three and a half hours. And I just watched what I did when I did it and its effect. And one of the things that I noticed was that all of my turns took roughly 16 seconds to complete. And that was something that when I got back, I wrote down. I also, uh, remember when I was mapping.
Yeah. When I was mapping the climb, how I mapped it, which I basically just released my inside hand and I kept my weight on. And that for me was a complete eye opener because I'd never actually watched myself what I did, when and why. And then I got back down when I got back down to the, to my house and I wrote these things down that I'd noticed that I'd, uh, I was doing subconsciously for all these years. Then I started to see a pattern forming. I started to see that there was some concepts here and I was running cross country courses before that for, for quite a while. Uh, and some feminine courses as well. And what I noticed is that people were, I could see the errors, what people were doing, but I didn't have a way to correct the errors. And that flight start with, that was the very, very beginning where I started to actually have something that I could offer to people.
And when I had that 16 seconds, uh, that 16 second rule, uh, to make it even easier, I broke it down into four quadrants. So that's how the four for 90 rule came to, came to be. It's as simple as that really.
Yeah. I, an analogy you come back to, I really, I enjoy it and I can't wait to, I just had shoulder surgery, so I haven't been able to fly the last few weeks and I won't be able to until probably late January or February, but I can't wait to, to try, especially that one, just to see how that kind of works. Cause it was a concept I'd never heard of it. I was really surprised to find quite a few of these in the, in this book, an analogy that I have heard of many times and I use again and again. Uh. One of the things I want you to talk about is chess. Um, why do we use this so much? Tell me about your concept of, uh, why we use chess to describe paragliding because I do it myself and I love it.
Um, well, it's like a strategy, isn't it? I mean, when we're playing, uh, when we, when we're flying cross country, we're playing against nature and against ourselves, but we're playing mainly against nature. And what we have to do, we have to earn our move, which is, and we try to earn our move as efficiently as possible. Which is our, how, how well we can climb, uh, how well we can find the climb, how quickly we can find the climb. This is how we can flow over the terrain faster. And, um, by earning our moves, we then, um, while we're earning them, we're working out how to play them. And then we're moving our pieces, ourself across this three dimensional chess board. Um, yeah, it's just strategy really. It's just aerial strategy. Um, nothing more, nothing less than that.
And I, I like how. You, you go into in, in some detail, and this is really, uh, this is really specific to the Alps and it, and it, it meant a lot to me because you, you, you know, you talk about places that I've flown quite a bit, like the Zillertal and the bridge concept. And, you know, that to me is like using a knight really well, or, you know, and so I, I, I really liked that analogy. Um, one thing you talk about early on and, and you, and you kind of keep coming back to it in the book is, is your toolbox. Your, your kind of personal toolbox. And, and one thing that I thought was, was really good, especially for not even lower hours pilots. I think every pilot is, is, is, I mean, every pilot, no matter where you are in the game is to stop chasing numbers, um, and, and build your, your toolbox.
Um, expand on that a little bit for me, for those who haven't read the book, um, I just think that's really important because I think we, you know, when we learn, we, you know, we learn to launch and we learn to land. And we, we do some ground handling. And then suddenly there's this, there's this just landscape of XC that, that jumps, you know, when I first learned how to paraglide, I didn't even know that was possible. I didn't even understand that that's what people were doing. And so suddenly it's like, wait a minute, you can launch and fly somewhere else. And then it becomes this, okay, I've done the 50. Now I gotta get the hundred. I'm gonna go to beer. I gotta get the hundred. I gotta go to the Alps. I gotta get to my 150. Oh, there's triangles. And it's, you know, if you don't get it, you're left. Kind of, ah, that wasn't a great flight. And I think that's really dangerous.
Yeah.
Because it pushes people too hard. It pushes people to push themselves too hard and without the necessary skills, perhaps early on, early on. Um, as you, as you rightly said, we need our toolbox to be as full of, um, sharp tools as possible. And those tools are, well, the first one, like I explained this pyramid in the, um, in the book. The first one is having good ground skills. I mean, um, I've just ran a, a thermal in clinic where ironically about a third to half of the pilots couldn't get off the ground safely. So it doesn't matter how good they were in the air. You know, if it takes 45 minutes to get off the ground and getting off the ground is, uh, is followed by a sigh of relief from any spectator.
It's, uh, can be a bit, a bit nerve wracking, really. Not only for the spectators. But especially for the pilot. Mm. Um, so just, it's never wasted time to train the lower levels. I call them the basics. But there's nothing basic about these basics. And yeah, moving on to then carving. And not just, um, so that's our, our moving our, moving ourself in an orbit around a climb. And doing it smoothly. But also being able to do it. I call it soft skills and our hard skills. So to do it, um, when the climb is, is weak and narrow. This is very technical. Because everybody comes up when it's strong and booming. Um, but we also need our hammer.
So we might need our, our, our tool which is, uh, for the soft skills. Like a, a micro, uh, watchmaker's, uh, screwdriver. And if you go to somewhere like the Alps in June, late June. There, and you find yourself in a bit of a light lee side. Then perhaps you're going to need the hammer. You know? Uh, which is the stronger end of the spectrum. When, uh, the glider is very snatchy. And, uh, not only are you trying to map the climb and stay in the core. But you're also trying to keep the nose open. In these hard snatches. Um, and then you move on from that. So from mapping in the light stuff. The soft skills stuff. Which is actually my favorite. Because, uh, you rarely see the top of your glider then. Um, and then we move on to route
planning. Route planning, route adaption. And then the more, uh, high level stuff. The, how to fly faster.
Um, it's more to do with, uh, taking good lines. Historically good lines over the terrain. Gliding well down those lines. And, uh, ultimately being able to, uh, understanding the concepts that make us fly fast. So this is like, um, the progression. All the different tools that we can, that we can use. And, uh, to concentrate on the, to be honest with yourself. And to concentrate on the level that you're at. And even get the levels below. Absolutely now it is never wasted time. Uh, many pilots they just, they, like you said. Uh, they feel that they're a disappointment if they haven't after so many years. They've been chasing numbers and they haven't come to them. Because they rely on this special day. Where everyone comes up.
Exactly. And if
they could just learn how to do the basics that little bit better. When the sun makes the sun. Makes it a little bit tricky. Maybe the sun goes in a little bit. And they get stuck. They get low. And the climb is a little bit too tight. And a little bit lighter than they would like. They can still come up in it. Because they've trained and trained and trained the basics to a high level. And as I said again. There's nothing basic about the basics, huh?
Yeah. And I, you know, I, I, there's, there's a few things I want to return to you there. But one of the things that my guests talk about again and again. You know, these, these toolbox skills like ground handling. Um, you know. But I also think that one, one of the things you emphasize. Is that, you know, flights with ascetics. That have, you know, that have inversions. That have light climbs. That are technical and hard. And slow. Can be a lot more rewarding than winging it huge on a big wind day. You know. Exactly. Over the flats. Like a, you know. There's, there's been some remarkable records going down. You know. And I, and I don't want to knock those in any way. Those are just pristine. And beautiful. And amazing. You know. Those, those are just incredible. But the technical flights. Uh, you know.
A little 100K out and back. Or a small FAI. Uh, you know. A 60K FAI. It's
a very,
very awesome. Can
be a
lot more rewarding than a 300K whipper downwind. I find. You know. When, when it's just. When you, when you've nailed hard things. Again and again. And it's a struggle. And it's. Um. Yeah. So I, I really like how you bring that out. And, and, and I think this applies. To pilots at every end of the spectrum. I was down at a Superfly. A few years ago in Columbia. And it can often be. You know. Either still wind. Or very lightly over the back. It launched there. Early. You know. In the morning. And you see Superfinal pilots. You know. The best of the best. You know. That supposedly. Um. Just blowing it. Again. And again. I mean. And it gets to the be where you're like. And I'm not gonna name any names. But you're like. Oh God. Here we go. Gotta watch this guy again. You know. Day after day. Just blowing it. And then there's other people who you know.
Are never gonna blow it. And you know. They've. And this is just getting off the ground. And this is the. You know. These are the PWC guys. And okay. Two liners. A little bit harder. This
is the
bottom run of the ladder. You know. Right. Right. And it's. The bottom run of the
ladder. Is being able to get into the air safely. I find that. Exactly. Gavin. I find that pilots. Who. Whose ground handling is not. On. On. Up to scratch. Right. It's because they. Haven't done enough of it. And because they haven't done enough of it. They. They want to brush over it. Because maybe it's their weaker part. Of their. Toolbox. Yeah. So therefore. They would neglect it. And then they start to feel embarrassed. That. They're good in the air. That they're not good on the ground. And perhaps. They want. Then they end up neglecting it more. Because they feel embarrassed themselves. Instead of just saying. Okay. I need to train this. And being honest with themselves. You know. They want to. Just get that part. Out of the way. Hope that. Hope.
That they get. Delivered. By the passive safety of their equipment. Into the air. I'm not saying. This is every pilot. Who struggles on the ground. But this. I see this quite a lot. Where pilots. Then. Maybe the wind is good in the landing field. But they don't want to get their kit out. Because they don't want to look foolish. Perhaps. And this may be the wrong attitude. Because this can save them so much. Agro. On. On. Launch. The next day.
I think. When you have that. Kind of. Chrigel. As. Confidence. On launch. You know. You can watch. That's. That's why. You can watch him. Just do. Absurd. Things. In. Perfect. Control. And. Exactly. I. Really. Like. The. That. Stress. That. Because. I think. I think. That's.
It's. Really. It's. Really. Easy. To. Break. A. Collarbone. On. Launch. You know. You. Just. Get. Picked. Up. Or. Worse. Get. Wrong. And. Get. Dumped. On. Your. Side. Boom. That's. Your. Holiday. Over.
Yeah. And.
One. Thing. That. You. Hear. A. Lot. Is. Oh. I. Just. Got. Picked. Up. By. This. Crazy. Gust. You. Know. Or. Or. You. Know. That. What. Happened. To. Me. Was. It. Was. So. Much. Different. For. Me. Than. It. Was. The. Last. Four. Pilots. And. You. Know. Whereas. The. Good. Pilots. They. Just. Know. How. To. And. And. Think. What. What. You. Bring. Out. Quite. Well. Is. That. You. Know. If. Those. Are. Conditions. You. Have. On. Launch. You. Going. To. Feeling. Those. Up. In. The. Air. Is. The. Same. Kind. Of. Stuff. And. If. Can. Just. Handle. It. Without. Even. Thinking. About. It. On. The. Ground. Then. That. Stuff. Is. Just. It's. It's. Something. You're. Even. Consciously. Thinking. About. In. The. Air.
Subconsciously. With. It. In. The. Air. Yeah. My. Instructor. Said. To.
Me. I. You. Know. Gavin. But. When. You. Can. Something. And. You. Get. Better. And. You. See. Yourself. Improved. And. It's. Actually. Quite.
Fun. To. Go. Out. And. Very. Fast. And. Then. I. Moved. And. I. Moved. To. Sun Valley. Which. Is. A. Very. Demanding. Place. To. Fly. And. When. I. When. I. Got. Accepted. Into. The. X. Ops. The. Last. Time. Around. You. Know. I. Realized. That. Okay. I. Need. To. Back. To. The. Basics. Here. Again. Because. You. I. Haven't. Been. Ground. Handling. In. A. Years. And. I. Still. Considered. Myself. A. Very. Good. Ground. Handler. But. I. Realized. Like. Wait. A. Man. I. Better. Go. Revisit. This. Because. Maybe. I'm. Not. Anymore. These. Are. Not. It's. Not. Like. Riding. A. Bike. These. Are. Not. Skills. That. Just. Stay. With. You. Forever. You. Need. To. Kind. Of. Keep. Going.
Back. To.
The. End.
Of. Your. Think. That. Is.
Out. Of. Your. And. To. Get.
Out. And. Hotter. Wing. Tell. Me. About. About. When. You. Make. That. Jump. And. And. Why. Potentially. You. Shouldn't.
Yeah. So. Obviously. The. More. Demanding. A. Wing. The. More. It. Takes. Away. From. Our. Ability. To. Run. To. Run. On. Auto. Pilot. So. The. More. We.
Get. The. More. Bandwidth. We. Can. Apply. To. The. Game. In.
Our. That. Takes. Away. From. Our. Observation. And. Observation. Is. Actually. Really. Important. Because. It. Triggers. Our. Experience. And. If. It. Doesn't. Matter. How. Much. Experience. You. Have. If. You're. Flying. A. Glider. That's. Too. Hot. For. You. Your. Observation. Won't. Trigger. It. When. To. Change. To. Our. More. High. Performance. Glider. I. Mean. Only. You. Know. That. When. Really. You're. Just. Squeezing. When. You're. Setting. Roots. For. Yourself. You. Getting. Random. You. Can. Fly. Faster. And. You. Really. Noticing. That. Maybe. You. Could. Do. A. Bit. More. But. Not. Just. Because. You. Think. That. The. Extra. 3%. In. Climb. Rate. Which. Is. What. It. Is. Basically. Between. A. Performance. B. And. C. It's. Probably. About. Three. Or. 4%. Climb. Rate. That's.
Not. Really. Going. To. Us. Climb. Any. Better. Unless. Our. Skills. Are. Absolutely. Perfect. I.
Think. That. That's. That's. Really. Key. And. I. Think. What. What. A. Lot. Of. Lower. Hours. Pilots. Lose. Side. Of. Is. That. You. Know. They. Climb. Up. They. Might. Leave. Cloud. Base. With. You. Know. A. Bunch. Of. Different. People. And. A. Few. People. Are. Hot. Ships. And. They. Get. To. The. Next. Climb. And. They're.
Lower. And. Farther. Back. Which. Is. Glide. You. Know. Climbing. For. For. Very. Good. Pilots. Becomes. Like. You. Say. It's. Autopilot. When. They're. When. They're. When. They're. Climbing. They're. Sipping. Their. Water. They're. Eating. Their. Food. They're. Not. Working. On. Like. Oh. God. Oh. God. Oh. God. Oh. God. Oh. God. They're. Just. There. It's. Really. Natural. It's. Really. Easy. They're. Finding. The. Core. Very. Easy. Where. The. Lower. Hours. Pilots. Are. Really. Working. Hard. Because. Like. You. Say. You. Can't. Fly. XC. If. You. Don't. Have. You. Don't. Climb. You. To. Learn. This. Very. Key. Important. Skill. Which. Is. Climbing. But. You. Know. It's. Much. Harder. To. Glide. Well. I. Think. That's. Something. That. Takes. Years. To. Test. Your. Real. Natural. As. Opposed. To. Thermaling. And. You. Point. This. Out. Pretty. Well. In. Your. Book. You. Can. Learn. That. Pretty.
Pretty. Quickly. A. Lot. Of. The. More. Basic. Aspects. Of. It. But. I. Think. Gliding. Is. One. Of. These. Really. You. Know. Like. Somebody. Like. Chrigel. That's. Gonna. Be. Pretty. Hard. For. Him. To. Just. Teach. This. Something. That. Takes. A. Lot. Of. Hours. And. It's. A. Of. Feel. We're. Not. Natural. Ego. On.
Lines. Over. Terrain. Like. That. Every. Day. Is. Different. As. I. Explain. In. More. Weather. The. More. Metro. Based. Part. Of. The. Book. Where. Every. Day. Is. Different. You. Know. And. Lines. That. You. Might. Take. On. One. Day. Over. The. Terrain. Won't. Work. On. Another. Day. Depending. On. Depending. On. The. Stability. Of. The. Air. Mass. But. This. Man. You. Talk. About.
This. Is. You're. A. Hot. Of. A. Wing. You. Know. You. Mention. That. In. The. Book. You. Know. If. You're. Not. Holding. Your. Glider. Open. All. The. Time. Then. You're. Not. Ready. For. The. Next. Step. Up. Yeah.
Sure. Yeah. It's. Attitude. That. Was. Banded. About. In. The. Light. In. The. Early. 2000s. That. It's. Normal. To. Collapses. And. A. Very. Well. Known. Pilot. Said. That. Collapses. Are. Losing. The. Rear. End. Like. Skidding. The. Rear. End. On. Your. Motorbike. It's. Just. One. Of. Those. Things. But. I. Think. That. If. Keep. Skidding. The. Rear. End. Of. Your. Motorbike. Anybody. Who. Rides. Motorbikes. A. Lot. Eventually. You're. Off.
So. Holding. The. Nose. Open. Is. Quite. An. Important. Skill. Obviously. We've. Got. Enough. Passive. Safety. And. Reserve. That. You. Lose. The. Nose. It's. Not. The. End. Of. The. World. And. If. You're. Repeatedly. Losing. The. Nose. And. You're. Definitely. You're. Either. Going. Out. In. Conditions. That. Are. Way. Too. Hot. For. You.
The.
Glider. Is. Way. Too. Hot. For. You.
That. There. Isn't. The. Passive. Safety. There. If. Taking. Frontals. You. Know. And. Russ. Was. Really. Clear. About. That. Like. Listen. If. You. Have. A. Frontal. On. A. Hot. Ship. It's. Too. Late. You. Know. That's. You. Already. Blown. It. Doesn't. Have. The. Safety. The. Passive. Safety. There. Anymore. To. Get. It. Back. Getting. It. Back. Then. Is. A. Bit. Of. A. Matter. Of. Luck. And. Reacting. Really. Fast. You. Know. Because. You. Can't. Just. Put. Your. Hands. Up. On. A. Liner. That. Doesn't. Work.
No. No. No. No. Right. A. Of. The. A. Lot. Of. The. Skill. In. The. Old. Days. Was. Putting. The.
Things. Back. On. Carving. I. Had. Never. Heard. The. Term. The. Golden. Rule. Get. Into. That. A. Bit. Brilliant. Loved. It.
Well. The. Golden. Rule. I. Mean. Anybody. You. Firm. Was. Well. Like. I. Say. In. The. Book. All. Good. Pilots. In. The. World. Who. Can. Firm. Well.
Abound. By. A. Bunch. Of. Concepts. And. One. Of. Those. Concepts. Is. The. Golden. Rule. Of. Constant. Cadence. Or. Smoothness. And. It. Doesn't. Just. Apply. To. Firmly. Applies. To. Gliding. As. Well. Next. Time. You're. Out. Gavin. Have. A. Feel. Of. How. Smooth. You. Are. When. You're. Gliding. Laterally. And. Also. With. Your. Pitch. Control. And. Especially. When. You're. Entering. Firm. How. You're. Trying. To. Maintain. The. Golden. Rule. I. Haven't. Actually. Said. What. Is. Yet. By. The. Golden. Rule. States. The. Golden. Rule. States. That. No. Matter. How. The. Glider. Is. Moving. Above. A. Pilot's. Head. The. Pilot. Beneath. Shall. Be. Shall. Have. No. Sharp. Increases. Or. Decreases. In. Speed.
So. What. That. Effectively. Means. Is. That. The. Pilot. Is. Acting. As. Suspension. To. Take. Out. All. Bump. Swings. And. Surges. That. Would. Convert. High. To. Speed. Because. Whenever. A. Pilot. Swings. Underneath. And. Converts. And. You. Feel. That. That. What. You. Call. It. That. Increase. Of. Speed. As. The. Pilot. Goes. Through. The. Air. That. Has. To. Come. From. Somewhere. And. That. Come. From. Via. Gravity. The. Pilot. Turning. High. To. Speed. Which. Is. Really. Ineffective. Inefficient. If. You. Are. Especially. Trying. To. Climb. And. If. You're. Trying. To. Glide. And. You're. Allowing. The. Glider. To. Pitch. Forward. You. Swing. Underneath. It. Increase. Your. Speed. Decrease. Your. Speed. That's. All. Little. Swing. Throughs. And. Those. Little. Swing. Throughs. End. Up. Costing. Your. Height. Well. That's. The. Golden.
Rule. Every. Single. Every. Single. Pilot. Who. Confirm. Or. Well. Sticks. To. The. Golden. Rule. Whether. They. Know. It. Or. Not. And. Anybody. Who. Doesn't. Will. Suffer. Look. At. Acro. Pilots. Acro. Pilots. Break. The. Golden. Rule. All. The. Time. That's. Why. Their. Runs. Are. Super. Sure.
It's. Right. That's. A. Basic. Way. To. Look. At. That. Isn't. It. They're. Destroying. The. Golden. Rule. From. Top. To. Bottom. And. That's. Why. They're. Top. To. Bottom. So. Fast. Right. I. Really. Like. That. The. Mapping. Just. A. Concept.
To. People. To. Try. And. Be. Smooth. Yeah. Just. To. Try. And. Consciously. Be. Smooth. If. You. Even. If. You. Understand. That. You. Need. To. Be. Smooth. You'll. Automatically.
Climb. A. Bit. Better. Because. You're. Very.
Possibly. Will. A. Bit. More. Accurate. Because. You're. Not. Swinging. And. Swinging. And. Surging. Moving.
I.
Think. About. Nate Scales. First. Gave. Me. This. Concept. You. Know. Where's. Our. Arc. Is. Above. Us. But. I. Think. People. That. Spend. Any. Time. Where. The.
Pendulum. Is. Below. Is. That. We. Have. To. Buy. Acting. As. A. Suspension. To. Keep. It. As. Smooth. As. Possible. To. Keep. It. That. We. Are. In. A. Constant. Motion. Underneath. The. Glider. As. We. Can. No. Matter. What. The. Glider. Is. Doing. You. Know. The. Glider. Can. Be. Moving. Backwards. Forwards. We. Just. Need. To. Take. Out. The. Bumps. That. We. Are. Moving. Through. The. Air. As. Smooth. As. Possible. And. You'll. Notice. That. Even. Subconsciously. When. Good. Pilots. Are. Flying. Gavin. Next. Time. You're. Out. Just. See. That. Your. Forward. Speed. Through. The. Air. Is. As. Smooth. As. Possible. And. You'll. Notice. That. When. You. Make. Mistakes. I. Make. Mistakes. All. The. Time. You. Know. When.
You. Make. Experienced. Pilots. And. What. Notice. Is. That. You'll. Know. When. You've. Made. A. Mistake. You'll. Swing. And. You'll. Oh. That's. The. Swing. Through. That was the break in the golden rule.
Something I see low hours pilots really struggle with is getting bumped out of a climb. You know, we can see it from the ground. And when you're on the radio talking, you'd see, okay, wait, the thermal's to your left. And they go, how did you know it was to your left? Well, you just, we saw you get bumped out of it. What's your answer to them? Is that just experience?
Yeah, I mean, you can, when you look at gliders, you can see the way that they move. And, you know, I think people as well, they put too much emphasis on turning the right way every time. Because with the mapping, if you've understood what I wrote in the book about the mapping, even if you feel that the turn is on the right, the climb is on the right, and you turn to the right, but you actually turn out of it, because sometimes you get pulled in and sometimes you get pushed out. And that just comes with experience. But you can always just go around 270 degrees and open up towards where, it starts getting crucial if you're low. Obviously, it's better to always turn into the climb, but it's not the end of the world. Because that's one of the questions that people always ask me. How do I know? How do I know? How do I know? It's not that important.
You can turn left or right. Okay. Hopefully, you'll feel that the glider gets picked up. Maybe it moves you away from it. You can roll in. It feels a little bit different to being drawn in. And that is so, what's the word? That is so black art. It's really, really. Difficult to explain the difference between being pulled and being pushed when you're sitting underneath a plastic bag. It's very, very difficult. And that just comes with trial and error. But try to explain to people that it's not the end of the world if you turn to the right and it's on your left, because just keep it going around 270 degrees and open up where it was. It's not the end of the world. Unless you're super low. Unless you're super low where every meter counts.
Sure. Sure. And that's ours. That's ours. I mean, that's not something we can teach. That's just ours. You know, like you said, you know, good pilots seem to get lucky all the time, don't they? And it's not luck. It's ours.
If they're asking that question, they just need more experience. Sure.
Sure. Two concepts I'm going to take you up on a little bit here, because not that I don't disagree. It's just something that I do. So I want to hear that I'm wrong. You say there's two definite don'ts in thermaling. One is don't change direction, and the other is don't bury the break. Now, the reason I'm going to take you up on that is that, you know, I think that Cross Country did a great article about, you know, when you're flying in the northern hemisphere, thermals tend to turn one direction versus if you're flying in the southern hemisphere and we climb better if we're turning against the climb. So defend both of these concepts. The other one, the don't bury the break. And this is maybe because I fly mostly. I fly mostly two liners, and I fly a place that has really, really strong thermals.
We're often in 10, 12s, and more, where they can be, especially on high-pressure days, they can be extremely ratty with extremely sharp edges. You know, this is one out of 50, but there are times where I'll literally stall the inside of my glider on purpose to help me hook it. And so, you know, you're saying these are just definite don'ts. Are there exceptions? Are these always definite? There are exceptions. Is there like,
they're not hard. Nothing in the book is a hard and fast rule. They're like rule of thumbs for pilots who are, you know, say you've got 50 to 100 hours and you're in the hill and it's a windy day and there's stories of bravery going on around you, for want of a better expression. And some guy who, some other pilot, he maybe says, I hit the call and I buried the break. Now, I have a funny feeling because I've noticed myself, I've been on autopilot when I've hit the call and I've buried the break in inverted commas. And basically, all I've done is just pulled the inside break down just a touch more, maybe five centimeters. And that's wound me in enough to stay in the call that little bit better.
Now, I'm sure that if I just jammed on the inside, I would swing out, my nose would swing forward, I would swing through and my vario could go silent. Because I've just converted loads of height to speed. I've basically broken the golden rule, okay? That's one reason not to bury the break. Now, you see, low airtime pilots, they might not understand the subtle concept of winding the energy in and bleeding the energy out, okay? Which has a lot to do with the golden rule. It actually all comes down to the golden rule. So, if you wind in that much energy by burying the break and you don't know how to bleed that energy out, which I'm sure is a good thing, I'm sure you do. You understand what I mean by that, right? Sure, of course. As you flick out and you've sent your body quite far out from where it was because you've hit loads of inside break to get around that sharp turn.
Now, if you don't use vast amounts of outside break and release and roll authority all at the right time, what you will end up doing is initiating a spiral dive, okay? So, what are you doing? Well, so, what burying the break or saying try not to bury the break or don't bury the break is to try and stop pilots from hitting the core and jamming on the inside. Now…
Almost like a panic reaction.
Like a panic reaction, but also thinking that it's an efficient thing to do. Yeah. There are horses for courses, you know. When it's like super narrow, I find that I am using quite a lot of inside, but I'm also bleeding the energy. I'm bleeding the energy out straight away because otherwise I'm just in a spiral dive.
I don't
need to be that tight. I don't need my nose to be pointing towards the ground trying to get out in a strong climb. Yeah, obey the golden rule. Obey the golden rule. Great. If that means that you can squeeze on a little bit more inside break and manage to bleed the energy out, then that's a good solid system. But if you're just hitting the core, burying the break, swinging out, swinging through, dropping the nose and initiating a spiral dive, then that's not the way to do it. Sure.
I'm going to jump here a little bit. That's perfect. Thank you. I'm going to jump here a little bit to something that non-Alps pilots are probably a little bit less familiar with. But in the Alps, this is just one of the absolutely required, you have to know how to do this, is fly in the lee. Otherwise, you're not getting anywhere. Your lee side rule I thought was really simple and really powerful. Tell me about your flight. What was your 15-kilometer rule and how you came up with that?
Okay. Well, I lived in the Zilla Valley for nearly 20 years. And on our house mountain, the Pencan, when winds start getting to about 15 kilometers an hour, then you notice. So as the valley wind, so what we're doing, we're flying in the lee of the valley wind. So you can start at 11 o 'clock on a summer's day and you can wind up on top land. And what you'll notice is that throughout the day, the wind will increase. Not just in speed, but in height. And on launch, you'll feel pretty much how much the wind is blowing over the coal. And you also see it with your GPS when you're going downwind into the lee that we used to spin up in. And the thermal would be moved further and further and further downwind until eventually if it was like blowing 15 to 20, then it would be extremely sporty indeed.
And I've seen people go in there at 25 and nearly fall into their wings. Now, what that also taught me is that because of the Zilla, you've flown in the Zilla Valley, right? Yeah. It's obviously the north-south running valley.
And being on the north side of the Alps, the wind will come from the north, which means that every sunny face in the valley is a potential lee side. And what I noticed at Flying XC was that if the wind was over 15 kilometers an hour, it started to get a little bit uncomfortable. And all that was starting to be the limit of the wind. And that was the limit of me having fun. I mean, I could do 20, but if I was doing 20, then I would have to look for somewhere that was a little bit different, like I say in the book, looking for a bridge. So what I started to notice is that through trial and error really, because when I moved to the Zilla Valley, I was on my own. I was the only English guy there who was flying paragliders. I had a few local friends, but my German wasn't very good and I was flying by myself all the time.
So what I ended up doing was, by trial and error, trying to get past mountains in silly valley winds. And then I'd come back and I asked my mate, I said, oh, whenever I get to this particular mountain, you know, I'm having problems. And he said, oh, yeah, that's the Hamburg. And it turns out that even to this day, it's like one of the most feared and respected mountains in the Northern Alps because of its aspect to the sun and because of the way the valley wind is squeezed over the top of it. So this was like this. This mountain was actually when I would. Yeah. I used to call it wind beats sun. Now I call it bridge principle.
But it's the same thing. The wind, wind beats sun. So you don't go to a sunny side. You go to a windy side if the wind is over 15, 20 kilometers an hour. And the Hamburg, this particular mountain used to be the mountain that I used to choose as an example.
And if we did cross country flights around the valley and it involved getting around the Hamburg. Then I would do it pretty much coming from the north side, soar up in the wind and then go into the protected area around the back and do it exactly textbook exactly as I explained in the book.
And I would really encourage our listeners to make sure when you get the book, which obviously by this point, I hope you're all running out to get it because there's all these concepts and way more. But, you know, you explain this really well in the book. And I think that, you know, when you're when you've gotten to that point where, OK, you've got some thermaling down. And you've got some gliding skills down and you're moving on, you're moving up the pyramid where you're starting to be able to map your day out and go with the flow. You talk about that quite a bit as well. The understanding how to move around. And I think I think that's what was very unique, at least for me with the Alps, is that they're incredibly complicated. You know, we always talk about over here in the Rockies that it's just much gnarlier flying here because, you know, the thermals are stronger. There's more wind. The mountains are big.
You've got desert right there. So it's just. Things can really change really fast. And it's, I guess, burlier. But, you know, the Alps are a place you have to have a lot of respect for because they're so complicated. There's just so many valleys. There's so many coals. There's so many valley systems. And you talk about, you know, valley winds. We don't deal a lot with that here. Our valley winds come from the same place. They're never going to change. They're never going to do like what they do at the Grimsel and the Furka and just go start going backwards. All of a sudden, you don't understand what's going on. So I think. OK. So
that's the concept
of, you know, you build it out really well there in the Xylitol in terms of all these concepts. You know, when it's over 15, you've got to use the windward side first and use these bridges. Great concept, the bridge. And I really like that. So, yeah, I would encourage our listeners to spend some time on those pages and really understand it. These are not the flick through pages. These are the pages. No, no. These are the
foundations of building strong roots. This is why I learned from flying with the local pilots over the years. It was actually interesting. When I went to interview Thomas Valda after he did his 325 kilometer route when I interviewed him for XEMAG. And after the interview, I kind of asked him, I said, oh, Tom, I'm writing a book at the moment. And I'd like you to comment if you would be so kind on the route planning stuff. Because obviously, you're the man who asked. Right. After just breaking the world record. And he said, yeah, yeah, no problem. So, what are you writing about? So, then I realized that over the years, we've never ever spoke about this stuff.
This was just stuff that we did. We just went out there and then we did. And because Tom has never taught anybody, we never spoke about it. And because I teach people, it's my job. So, I've had to break it down into what we're doing on a route plan. And I was just thinking. Oh, hang on. This is the first time I'm going to tell one of the world's best pilots, my mate, what I think that he's doing. And I was like a bit shy about it. And I said, right, okay. Well, Tom, I believe that, first of all, you know, we are following the flow of the day. So, I brought that down. I said, well, we're going to follow the sun, obviously. And he was looking at me a bit strange. And then I said, and then so we go against the valley winds in the morning when there are no valley winds. And then we use the valley winds. We use the valley winds to come home at the end of the day.
And he kind of looked at me even more strange. And he said, well, of course. And I was like, thank God for that.
Because we never spoke about it, you know. But this is all the stuff that I learned in Zillow Valley over the many years. Sure. On a smaller scale. He
brought it to the big scale.
The strange thing is about all the more serious thing about the north side of the Alps is that you can't get it wrong. You know, when you go on a long glide and you end up in the lee side of a 25-kilometer hour compression, it's not funny anymore. You know, then you really start to find out how the passive safety of your machine possibly works. And I'll be lying if I told you that that had never happened to me over my many, many years of trial and error. But I was very lucky that I always flew gliders that I could handle and notched it up to experience in the early years, you know. As I said. I was the only English guy there. And I was just basically just flying around. And then I soon realized that, okay, there are some places here that you don't want to fly.
And I realized pretty soon after that that they all had something in common. That they're all southwest faces. And they're all in the shadow of the valley wind. But if you went further in, then they were safer.
Sure. And
again, this is something that we never spoke about amongst the local pilots. That, I don't know. And I'm sure they still don't talk about this stuff. Maybe. Maybe because they just do it instinctively.
Or I'm not sure. I'm not sure. But because I had to explain it to people why you don't go there, it was basically what I say on my courses. All the stuff I'm telling you is because I've learned it the hard way. Sure. Yeah. Sure.
And I think the reality is if you're not willing to take those risks, then, you know, maybe XC paragliding. Because we're all going to get into those situations at some point. They're not totally, you know, you can't always avoid them. And then that's coming back to your concept of be on the right wing, have the right toolbox.
And to go in with your hands up. To go over your hands in front of your face. Not going into a lee side, taking photos with your hands off your brake, sucking on your drink straw. Yeah. Don't be an idiot. Knowing when it could be. Knowing when it could be a bit edgy. Yeah. Exactly. To cut your losses, you know. I'll have a look. And if I don't like it, I'm out of there.
Yeah. Yeah. Let's jump again here to a concept that I think a lot of pilots really struggle with. And you mentioned it earlier, but speed to fly. I'm just going to give it a quote right out of your book. Your rule of thumb is to accelerate the wing to get to my ground speed as close as I can to the trim speed of the wing. That's about probably the simplest way I've ever heard of speed to fly. And I just wanted that you expand. Because we can talk about McClellan. We
can talk about
McCready. We can talk about if it's windy, press full bar. If you're going downwind, you know, maybe even be a little bit heavy. I've heard this a million different ways. And, you know, but you're, you break, I think that's a very simple way to do it. You know, your rule of thumb is to keep your wing at trim speed. Know A, know the trim speed of your wing. But B, if you can, yeah, I like that. Can we get into that a little bit?
Yeah. Well, it's as simple as I just explained it. I mean, I noticed that over the years, you know, I've tried to look at the glide calculator and stuff like that. But I noticed that, you know, I've got like 4K on the nose. I just give enough that my glide angle, it depends on how much of a hurry you're in as well. You know, this is just, this is just for best glide. And to be honest with you, Gavin, I don't know how, what would you call it, scientific this is. It just kind of works for me. Whether I'm going crosswind, sidewind, obviously not downwind. Yep. I'm not really a downwind dasher where I live. So we do like a little bit of flying around the flatlands of Bassano in the Alps. So we're not really doing like big flights with 25, 30K winds down in our backs.
I'm not sure how it would work then because obviously you can't go trim speed if you've got 30K. If you're doing like 60K over the ground, you've got to slow down so much that you are going at trim speed. It only really works if it's on the nose or crosswind. Sure. Okay. Otherwise, and again, I don't know how scientific it is. Russ Ogden said to me that if you give as much gas as you can hold the nose open. You know, that's another thing Russell said many, many years ago. If the climb is strong in front of you, give as much gas that you can hold the nose open.
Got you.
But really, if I'm just cruising around and I'm not in a major hurry, then I just accelerate the glider until I see 36, 37. I normally fly low intermediate gliders, whether they're performance Bs or whether they are, I don't know, maybe out of school wings like the very modest 5.2 aspect ratio wings that are out there.
Got you. Got you. You go into, we're getting towards the kind of the end of the book now. You go into some really terrific concepts. And a very good kind of baseline about meteo that's beyond the scope of this conversation. But one thing I do that I had never heard of yet again, this is great. The air mass spectrum from volatile to stubborn. Volatile, flexible, cooperative, lazy, stubborn. Or sorry, volatile, excitable, cooperative, lazy, stubborn. Yep. Give me a little bit on that. This is another really cool concept that takes us from fizzy to sticky. Which is another one that I never heard of. Exactly. I love it.
So I try to explain to people, because no two days are the same. They're not carbon copies of each other. Every day is made up of a combination of wind, air pressure, humidity, latch rate, and obviously the sun is the last one. So every single day is different. And if you understand that a day that has a slightly more unstable feel will react very differently. The way that the air mass will interact with the terrain, the aerology, will be different on an unstable day. So the kind of things you can plan, because maybe the day is short, thermals will not go very high.
So don't expect any kind of really long glides. They'll be very often the thermals. And maybe strong, maybe not. Depends on the latch rate. But will behave very differently to like high pressure, more stable days. So that's the very binary way of looking at it. Okay. So fizzy is really unstable. And sticky is really stable. So I wasn't really happy with just saying, like, where is the day on the fizzy and sticky spectrum? Fizzy and sticky spectrum when we're on launch, because that will tell us even when to launch. So I wanted to make it that it was a little bit more, a little bit less binary and a little bit more analog.
So then people could start to understand the character of the air mass. And each one of these characters has a slightly different feel. So volatile obviously is quite stormy. Probably a very short day. Excitable is probably quite fun to fly. But still quite a short day. Thermals aren't going very high because of the pressure, humidity, and latch rate. And the amount of sun that's available. And then we've got the cooperative days, which are perfect in both the Alps and the Flatlands. And then we've got the lazy days that require a little bit more prodding, a little bit more encouragement, i.e. via the sun. And then we've got the stubborn days. Just whatever you do to them just won't work. So it's still the fizzy and sticky spectrum, but it's just colored in a little bit more.
Just to make people understand that it's not just left or right, one or two, black or white.
Sure. Sure. Yeah. Great. Fantastic. I've got a whole bunch of notes here on atmosphere and, you know, meteo and valley winds. Which I just think are, again, are a little bit beyond the scope of this conversation. I just invite people to go into that in the book because you get into it really well. Two last things I wanted to talk about. You talk about the natural. And what immediately came to mind to me was the baseball film, you know, with Robert Redford.
The natural. Expand on that a little bit about, you know, because I think that, you know, when we first paraglide, we often don't have instruments. You know, we're just hucking off the hill. And I really like this because I think it's something – I've actually incorporated this into my own flying a couple years ago that I purposefully fly without instruments quite often because I think it does help us to become more Chrigel-esque.
Exactly. Exactly. Well, it's what most pilots should strive for, you know. In the beginning, as you said, we – when we first start soaring on small hills, we – yeah. Just flying by feeling. And then we end up getting these more and more and more high-tech stuff. And then we end up relying on this stuff. And I'm ashamed to say that I'm quite reliant on the clumsy Vario.
I've tried, again, as you say. I try and turn it off. And it's – I feel lost without it. But I'm persevering. I am trying to become more natural. I'm trying to become – Obviously, there's some things that you need our technology for, for glide calculating and stuff like that. But one thing that I don't like about the way that modern instruments is going, and maybe this is not a very popular thing to say, but I hate these thermal mappers. I think that they take away this from the soul of the sport. They definitely detract from the soul of the sport because I find that people are staring too much at their screens. It's like they're playing virtual paragliding instead of actually using a mapping strategy.
And ironically, these thermal mappers, they work when the climb is strong when you don't need a thermal mapping skill. And they – when the thermal goes light, they don't work as well. And then the person is lost because they rely so much on this technology to get them through. They struggle. I
think they can be – I think they can be two things. On the positive side, they can encourage you to seek more instead of just turning and turning and turning. They can encourage you to bend it out a little more into an area that you maybe didn't – I think Nick Greece has always been – he's always – he's such a good climber. I'm always looking at the bottom side of his wing. And his kind of concept is explore to find the core. So I think they can be good at that. But they can – again, it's one of those things. It's one of these things that when you rely on something, you have radically reduced your observation skills. When you're just staring at that thing, you've lost your observation, which is how can you climb. Exactly.
I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more. Yeah.
It seems to be that you get kicked out of school. The first thing they show you is a GoPro, which is – just makes me cringe. Oh. And then an instrument with a thermal mapper. Okay, I understand that in the beginning, you know, it's a very frustrating sport.
But a dot on the center of the screen or bubbles or whatever it does, these weird and wonderful machines, are no substitute for a strong mapping strategy. Yeah. Perfect. Great. That's the bottom line. For me, that is the bottom line. I mean, I don't mind if people – I don't care what people use. You know, it's your game. It's not mine. But I think that, you know, if you really want to experience the soul of the sport, then that's what I say about being natural. But what I've found is – this is almost going back on what I've just said. I've just got a very, very, very sensitive area, which relies on an accelerometer, I think it is. Is that what they're called? Yeah, exactly.
Now, what I've noticed is what that's doing when I'm mapping. It's made my mapping about 22 degrees. So I worked it out because it's about – the second lag is gone. I don't know if this is relevant. But the second lag is gone from when I hit the core when I'm carving. So I can trust my instrument more. So therefore, because I'm carving at 16 seconds, every second is 22 and a half degrees. It's made my mapping potentially 22 and a half degrees more accurate. However, that gets away from natural flying again. Do you understand what I mean? So it's a bit of a – 22 there, yeah. You know,
that's interesting that you bring that up. And when I was in Alaska, just because of weight, I used the XC Racer, which is – That's exactly the one that I'm talking about. I
didn't really want to mention any names.
It's a brilliant little device. And I really like this concept of no delay. But as of yet, I don't fly as well with it. No? I'm really trying – well, I think the Averager on a Flymaster or a Flytech is – For some reason, maybe that's just how I've learned – I've just flown with them more. Exactly. It's too immediate for me. I can't figure out nearly as fast where the core is. So I've actually gone back again. What's that?
So adapt to it.
Yeah, exactly. Because you've done X
amount of hours on something that you know inside out. It took me a few weeks to adapt to it. And I also had to customize it because I found that it was not beeping hard enough in the lower end of the range. So it wasn't encouraging you in the light stuff. Because everyone comes up in the strong stuff, Gavin. Everybody. Sure. But I prefer the really light stuff, like under half a meter, 30 centimeters a second when the climb is tight. You know, the real technical stuff.
Yeah, right,
right. Yeah, it would be nice. It would be nice. You know, I wrote this – the chapter on natural. It would be nice if I was at that level. But that's why, as far as I can see, that's the next – that is the end because I can't see further than that. Right. Because I haven't attained it yet.
Yeah, and I mean that's the beautiful thing about this sport. I don't think we ever really do, you know. There's always more to learn. Okay, the last thing I want to end on, not that this is necessarily – well, we can turn this into a positive for sure. But something that I think pilots that don't fly in the Alps much are not – a concept that they don't naturally understand is phone. And you give a really good discussion on this. When I first went to the Alps, that was – I had never heard of that. I didn't even know what it was. And, you know, again and again, Bruce Marks, who I know had been one of your students, he's one of my supporters in the ex-Alps, very good friend of mine. You know, this is when we were back in the days where we were chasing it really hard. And, you know, we'd rock up to a place like Fiche on a Tuesday and we'd be the only two pilots there.
And, you know, and of course we were smart enough to know like, hmm, what's wrong? But, you know, it was a day that was, you know, the phone was five or six or something. And like you point out really well in your book, you know, you can get away with it until it dumps and then it is just terrifying. Your quote, you can be the best captain in the world but boats don't
fly. They don't
float on phone – on phone. Exactly. That is so terrific. But I guess I just – this can't be a full discussion about phone because it's just – it's a concept we could talk about for hours. But I just want to put out that warning. What do people need to be aware of when they come to the Alps for the first time? What's a go day versus a not a go day and why?
A lot of it depends on where you're flying. You need to know if where you're flying is phone sensitive. The closer you get to the main ridge of the Alps, the more you're going to get to the main ridge of the Alps. The more sensitive it is. North-south running valleys are often more sensitive as well. And then the overall metro situation. So a good – a firm forecast of four hectopascals between north and south side of the Alps is enough to trigger it in sensitive areas. There are some areas that you can fly even though it's up to eight. But they are normally a long, long way away from the main ridge of the Alps. And have a lot of mountains in between them that have east-west running valleys that break up this falling flow.
But saying that, if the firm breaks through, then all bets are off. So basically don't take – in my opinion, if you don't really understand the firm and you see four hectopascals and no locals are flying, a four hectopascal difference between say Innsbruck and Bolzano. If you're on the eastern side of the Alps, then that is definitely not a good sign. North or south. But obviously if you're on the south side of the Alps and it's south firm, then it's not firm. It would only be firm on the north side of the Alps if it's south firm. Sure. And if it's north firm, then it's firm on the south side and probably just raining on the windward side.
And I think it's important to remember in paragliding we are one flight away from either an injury or a flight that is so scary you won't return to the sport. And firm is the kind of stuff that will make that happen. I speak that from experience. Sometimes in the ex-Alps, you're almost forced into these situations and it is always ugly. Firm is not to be
trifled with. In the book, I give my firm story because I always thought that the firm was just a strongish wind that might be a bit turbulent, people told me. This is going back in the early… In the late 90s. And I thought, well, if the wind is 30 kilometers an hour or 35 kilometers an hour, I'm not in the lead. I'm far enough away from anything. Surely I can just give some gas and push forward. Wrong. How wrong was I?
That is not what firm is. It's like flying in a class 5 river. It's just awful. Rotor
within rotor within rotor with more rotor involved. I call it fractal rotor.
Yeah, that's a great way to put it. It's flying in a class 5 river. It's just you cannot see the air. Nothing makes sense. It's SIV all the way to the ground and that's if you're lucky. It's just terrifying. I was lucky about
that. That story that I tell in the beginning of the chapter about the firm, when 25 of us local pilots, you know, you'd think that if you go with the club, the local club when you're a low airtime pilot, that if you think that if you go up the mountain with 25 of them, some of the world's best pilots in there, that you'd be safe. But no, it could have been a very black day for the club when the firm broke through. And I was only saved that there was about 150 meters of laminate north wind blowing on the valley floor. Otherwise, I probably wouldn't be here today. I'm talking to you now.
And I think what's really important about furnace is that exactly what you just said. When it breaks, we have no idea. It just builds and builds and builds and dumps. And it builds and builds and builds and dumps. And if you're in that dump, man.
Yeah, you can't see the inversions. You can't see when they break. And you have no idea. I mean, we used to go fern sawing a lot in Meyerhofen when it was just south wind. And as the fern was on the way up. And you could see because of the lake at the bottom of the valley. At the bottom. It's hard to explain. But there's opposite where we're going sawing. At the bottom where the fern would come through, there's a lake. And then you would start to see that on the far end of the lake, it would be mirror. On the far end, you start seeing some little telltales that the wind was coming. And then you'd go down. But the visitors would see you flying. And they would go, oh, it's still flyable. We'll go up. And then the next wave would go up. And the next wave would go up. And the last wave, they would get handed by the fern. So I decided that it was irresponsible to go up and go fern sawing, really.
Because that led people to believe that maybe it was safer than it was. So I said, you know what? I'm not going to go up in this. There are good days to go mountain
biking. You know, live to fly another day, I think, is the point we're getting to here. Yeah. It's just
that, you know, in the early days, it's easy to become obsessed with the sport. And you say, right, I'm going to fly. I can fly in this. I can fly in this. Those days for me are well and truly gone. Now I go and do something else. Well,
I think hunger is a terrific thing. And, you know, but it just has to be balanced. Because it's just, you know, it's a really fine line, isn't it? Between, you know, your experience where you had that 150 meters and your whole club landed safely to a really black day. You know, and that's exactly what it is. There's just not that many of those black days you're going to get through. Hopefully, you know, we paraglide. We're going to have them. But, you know, you want to limit them as much
as you can.
Okay, last. What I can is that,
yeah, you don't mess around with the phone. Yeah,
exactly. If you don't know what it
is, just don't mess around with it.
Yeah, exactly. That's the point here. Okay, I want to be conscious of your time. I know you're in Asia. It sounds like you had some bad food last night. So we're about an hour. This is just terrific. But one question I was asking again and again. And I've just been remiss in the last few interviews. And it's been requested to ask it again. Again, advice for a 50-hour pilot, and even specifically to you, if you could rewind the clock back to 96 when you were first getting into it, what would you have liked to have been told that maybe you weren't, or maybe you were?
Oh, what would I have liked to have been told? Just take your time. Take your time. It will all come, you know, like life is long enough, and you can't do it all in the first years, you know. I almost envy, sometimes envy the lower-experienced pilots because they've got it all to come, if that sounds, without sounding a bit strange. It's like they've got it all to come, and, you know, the first 50K, the first, the first, they're not always, but the new. New experiences, you know, just always constant new experiences, as when you've been flying for 20-odd years, then the new experiences are fewer and further between, you know.
Right. It's harder to have that, oh, my God, I just left the ground feeling, but we never lose it, do we? No. It's always amazing. So
not be in a hurry, you know. All the good things will come. That's all I can say on that, really. Fantastic. All the good things will come. Great. The
book is Mastering Paragliding. I would even go so far as to say a master's course in paragliding. I remember Russ Ogden telling me about that at one point. The author and my guest is Kelly Farina. Kelly, thank you so much. It's just, it really is a terrific book, and I think, like you said, it's for all levels of pilots, but especially those that are just getting into the sport or maybe at those intermediate hours. There's just concept after concept that are really well broken down. Congratulations to you for writing it. I know from my own experience, writing a book is really challenging and hard. It's a lot. I bet. Thanks for the kind words, and
thanks for having me,
Gavin. Appreciate it. Thanks a lot. Thanks for coming on the show, and hopefully we'll get to meet in person someday. Thanks, Kelly. Yeah,
man. That'd be nice. Thanks, man.
I hope you enjoyed that. Lots of fantastic concepts there. Please go out and get Kelly's book. I've provided a link there on the website under that podcast. Many of you have asked. Where you can donate to the podcast, as always, all we ask for is a buck a show. If you got something out of this one or one of the previous episodes to help keep us going, just send us a buck. I really appreciate that. That link, that donate link, is very big and obvious underneath any of the paragliding or any of the podcast episodes. So just click on that, and it'll take you through PayPal. Thank you very much. If you're just discovering the podcast, I highly recommend you go back and check out some of the former shows. I just reviewed it the other day. I think I frequently kind of fall back on some of my favorites, but they're all just terrific.
The one with Will Gadd, fantastic. The one with Tom Dordle-Do, an ex-Alps pilot, good friend of mine, just terrific. As always, Jeff Shapiro, his whole kind of viewpoint on risk and why we do what we do, just terrific. So go back, check those out, and if you can recommend somebody you want to see on the show, just send me a message. Send me an email. If you could give us a rating on iTunes or Stitcher or Google Play, whatever method you get your podcasts on, give us a rating. I really appreciate that, especially if you can't give us a donation. That really helps spread the word, and that's what this is all about, just getting out information so we can all be safer, better pilots and fly far. Be safe, have fun. See you on the next show. Cheers.