25. Kari Castle and flying for life - Kari Castle

Welcome

to another episode of the Cloudbase Mayhem. I've got a really special show for you all today. We're sticking with our female theme. The last podcast with Isabella Messenger was by far the most popular we've had. Just such an eloquent personality in our sport that we went to all kinds of great places. If you haven't heard that one, please, I implore you to go back and check it out. This one, I think, I don't think I've been very nervous talking to most of our guests, but this one I was certainly nervous. Kari Castle been flying for 35 years, has been an incredible mentor to me and I know to hundreds, if not thousands of others. Been flying 35 years. Her resume is just ridiculous. 14 national championships on a hang glider, three on a paraglider, three world championships on a hang glider.

A couple of those, she beat all the guys. Red Bull athlete, did the X-Alp. In 2005, which we have some laughs about her lack of kind of preparation and knowledge about going into that is just pretty hysterical right up there with some innate stories about his campaign in 2007. We go all kinds of places here. I really implore you to stick with this one, stay with it to the end. We talk about risk management, the dangers of that kind of comp mentality. We talk about two liners. There's actually a little bonus section at the end here where we talk about the line two liners and why she got away from flying comp wings. We get into all kinds of things really the keys to staying safe. Carrie has had an incredibly long career accident free and there's a lot of reasons for that.

A lot of reasons we a lot of things we can all learn from. We also talk about two of her reserve tosses on a hang glider which is pretty unusual for hang gliders. They're not like paragliders. They don't like to throw their reserves in for very good reasons. You tumble a hang glider you're going to be in disintegration mode and and we talk about a couple of those which are really more funny than scary but we also get into kind of some scary stuff here. We talk about the accidents last year that happened at the Sierras and and what we all can maybe learn from that. So without further ado please enjoy this conversation with one of our sports true legends Kari Castle.

Kari Castle it is just magnificent and I have to say I'm a little nervous about because you don't get too nervous about these podcasts but I don't want to make you blush right off the start here but you're kind of one of my heroes and and mentors and it is just I've had a lot of people request getting you on the show. Thank you so much for giving me some of your time and allowing me to track you down. I understand you've just been over in Europe for quite a long stint. What were you doing over there?

Well I was on a little travel work vacation in a sense. I'm working with CIVL so I'm doing official type work at competitions now which brought me to Italy for the paragliding pre-worlds and then also to the aerobatic world championships in Annecy which was a blast. Yeah both of them were fun and in between I traveled around and got to see some places I haven't seen in a long time so it was absolutely wonderful.

Very cool and I watched some of the Annecy aerobatics championship on online. It is pretty amazing what those folks are doing these

days. Unbelievable. I loved it just yeah and the best part is just seeing all these young kids in the sport and just loving it and having fun and yeah it was just absolutely wonderful energy. Good stuff.

Yeah I like it seems to be that that end sport is really bringing in the young kids and that's that's very cool. I like that a lot. I think hopefully they'll be then they you know they can stick with it forever as you and I have more to an extent.

That's true good point. I think they will. Well hey

Kerry not to not to make you blush even a little bit more but just getting ready for this this talk I had to go look because I knew a lot of it but I had to go kind of look at your CV which is uh well it's ridiculous. Let me just oh please yeah no it is my goodness uh and I just so I want to kind of rewind the clock go through some of this let me know what I've missed uh three times hang gliding world champion uh you two you you currently hold two hang gliding world records you hold the world tandem distance record in Australia 228k you're the four-time U.S. paragliding national champion uh first you're the first female in 1991. To fly over 200 miles in a hang glider uh 14 total national championships in hang gliding uh you fly paramotors ultramite ultralights you uh fly speed wings uh what is it you don't do that's that has to do with the air that is ridiculous by the way what did I miss?

I haven't base jumped yet or or flown a squirrel suit or which oh my god I watched that and I want to but I'd never do it but I want to well

I'm I'm sure it's I'm sure

it's going to be

sure it's coming my my gosh that is just uh remarkable when did you when did you start and uh what was the impetus what what uh what what got you into it?

Well flying I mean for I always had dreams as um as a kid of flying you know the peter pan type you know where you just launch out of your backyard and you just fly above your neighborhood and look down and and soar and when I had the opportunity to fly tandem in Colorado one year just out of high school um I got so but we never found the pilot so I was bummed a couple years later I was in Canada hiking in the the Rockies there and I ran into a guy that had a hang gliding t-shirt on and I went oh my god you do that I was gonna do that what's it like blah you know that kind of thing and he just you know couldn't yeah he loved talking about it and he said that I could learn and I could you know fly myself and I thought what me fly alone and you know so that was the first time I had even thought

about it I was like oh my god I'm gonna do this I'm gonna do this I'm gonna do this I'm gonna do this and I thought it would be more like a base jumping thing you know where you go you base jump and it's over and you go whoo did it and so you know I did I signed up for a weekend lesson in Calgary and and that was it I was hooked once I got airborne that is what what year was that

1981 1981 okay so and at first so and you're you're one of these athletes who's who goes this kind of sounds strange but goes both ways and you're one of these athletes who goes both ways and you're one of ways you're a hangy and a paraglider and so but it started with hang gliding so take us down that road for a while well

yeah that was in 1981 and that was in Canada I had the weekend lesson and I couldn't stop thinking of hang gliding after that I was still living in Michigan a year later I moved to California by chance long story short 10 minutes away from the biggest hang gliding school ended up looking into hang gliding lessons found out how expensive it was and I was like oh it was couldn't afford it because you know I just moved there they ended up allowing me to work for the school in exchange for my lessons so I worked off all my lessons bought my first hang glider and so I was learning to fly in the Bay Area and loving it that's where I you know got entered my first couple competitions the first competition I entered was it and it's sled heaven we call it sled heaven Ed Levin and Malpitas and it was the first silent air show and they had hot air balloons sailplanes hang gliders there were no paragliders at the time and stuff it was just a show and the club put it on right and they said Carrie we need you to enter and it's like no I can't enter you know I'm a new pilot and they're like all you have to do is take off really good fly out over this this windsock in the middle of the LZ do a 360 round and I said I can't I've never done a 360 and they're like well don't do that and then all

right stay up as long as you can and then come in for a spot landing that's all you have to do I go okay well I can take off good and I can try to stay up and I can land pretty good okay I'll do that you know and I forgot the flag bit because I had never done a 360. so I took off and I stayed up and it was just one of those scratching kind of days at Ed Levin that's why they call it sled heaven you know like if you can stay up it's you know it's pretty good and so I just stayed up on this one point I I figured well as long as I'm staying up that's what they said stay up stay up I don't know how but a long long time people I would see him take off they'd fly by me go out land all day long I'm like why aren't they staying up we're supposed to stay up you know so I so I stay up and then finally I'm like there was nobody else coming down I thought all right I better come down so I came in and I nailed the spot and I was all excited and they're like you won I went what but I didn't do a 360 and I go it didn't matter you stayed up longer than anyone and blah blah blah so that was kind of that hooked me on competing it was just so much fun and crazy so yeah that was clearly

you had an early talent yeah

scratching I love scratching yeah no so that was fun so I entered a bunch of competitions in the Bay Area and then um I started uh with regional competitions which was great at the time you know it's something I wish we had more of nowadays you know more of the the the League meet type stuff that jog is putting on and the Southern

a lot of that for us back in the day with hangline so it was great you know and to make the National to make the Nationals um it it was a big thing you didn't just go to the Nationals you had to qualify you know be in the top 10 of your in your region so that was pretty cool so I got hooked on all those fun competitions and went to my first um Nationals U.S Nationals in 1988 in Chattanooga Tennessee and that was the first time they had awarded a women's national champion and I won it and it was so exciting and you know at the time I was um working at a high technology marketing research company in the Bay Area and I remember when I got back from that competition my picture was on the front page of the San Jose Mercury News they did an article on me and and the president of the company called me up on the phone and said what would it take to sponsor you and I'm like huh what does that mean I'm like wow this is like a dream what do you uh I don't know

see you back so I hung up and I must have asked for help or whatever and I just I don't know came up with something and long story short they agreed to sponsor me they said that you know as long as I worked three weeks out of the month I had to have a week off every month to go compete they'd pay for everything all they wanted was um their logo on my wing they would pay um I would maintain my medical insurance and as if I was a full-time employee et cetera et cetera it was just a dream um what is this company what were I know no kidding this was um it was called data Quest it was a high technology marketing research company they saw the value I mean because there I was you know it was the front page my hang glider I'm launching off Henson's ramp and it was a gorgeous picture I mean I'm just lifting off and you could see the undersurface and the guy saw he goes man data Quest on the wing whoa there it is you know I know it was a dream and I yeah and so I you know so we did that I just started going with that and then I think it was a couple months later maybe a month later because that was in April and then I went to the Owens to uh it was called the Owens Valley cross country classic and it was a big competition in the hang gliding world you know to go to the Owens it's like then you know that's a big deal so this was a world comp no um no it was just a it was a competition that ran every year in the Owens there was a core group of guys and I think it started in

it would be 40 years what is that you do the math yes and it was a big comp you know like you know at the time I mean you know like any of them not like a PWC kind of thing but you know I was going to the comp and I think it was the second time I'd been there but anyway it was the year I um I was doing really well I was in fourth place going into the last day I mean I was having a good good competition you say fourth place not with

the women you're talking overall you're not everybody no

I think I was right okay no overall yeah yeah um overall no I was in fourth place overall and yeah I'll never forget I just climbed up at White Mountain Peak I got over 16.5 I thought all right I'm going on glide towards Black Mountain for those of you that know um and I remember I just crossed the big canyon there Mjolnir Canyon I'm over Barcroft um and I remember thinking oh I should tuck my arms in to get aerodynamic you know because that's what all the big boys do right so I'm thinking all right go on you know because I'm just gliding right and I'm you know I'm going to Black Mountain was the last turn point then we had to go out to Fish Slough and it was over it was the last day last day to come and boom no warning no nothing I just it just tucked just as if you know just someone you know god somebody just took my glider and flipped it upside down forward you know like it went over forward and just absolutely I mean it took me by surprise there was no turbulence leading up to it anything I went from flying straight tucking my arms into whack because I let go or the bar got ripped out of my hands my body karate chopped the leading edge in the crossbar when it hit you know when it went upside down and so then I'm laying in my wing upside down looking at my wing broken and I'm spinning I'm like shit this sucks it's over fuck and so so I'm looking up and so I get on the radio I said my glider just broke up I'm gonna have to throw my reserve wait

wait wait wait hold on you you got on your radio and you said I'm going to throw my reserve before you threw your reserve yes

I was laying there just you know like I'm just as if I'm talking to myself I mean you gotta talk to someone help yeah well this is what I'm looking at I'm like all right my glider just broke up I'm gonna have to throw my reserve so and then I remember one of my teammates you know because we're all on our own little frequencies right and the guy gets Mikey Mikey Harveston I'll never forget he gets on the radio goes if this is a joke that's not funny I remember hearing that and I thought well I'm not gonna argue right now I've got a job to do and so that's when I I looked down and I can remember because we had our reserves on our chest right there and so I grabbed the handle I remember pulling the velcro and how hard it was to pull but I don't remember throwing so I don't know if I just like panicked and threw I don't know if it got ripped out of my hand you know it's one part of the whole thing I don't remember for some strange reason um but then the next thing I know I could have gotten knocked out I really don't know but all I know is the next thing I know I'm looking at my bridle and it's all like wiggly out to the side and I'm still spinning and I'm like well that doesn't look right and I remembered in my shoot you know deploy clinic thing whatever that I never had but I heard about it that you're supposed to like pull it in to get that little diaper bag off the end of the reserve and so I thought oh okay I gotta I gotta yank on the thing you know or no actually what I was thinking was I was going to pull it in again and re-throw it is what my plan was and I thought was so I start hand over hand pulling the bridle in and then you know that got the bag off the end of the reserve and then it opened well because I pulled in all that bridle it was wrapped around my arm and when it opened my arm got pinned it went bam and my arm was pinned along the side wire and then you know straight up to the reserve but at least the reserve was out now and I thought well I'm not going down with my arm pinned to the side wire and I just

yanked that shit out of there right it's like okay so then I thought okay um I'm gonna get out because we had a zip up harness you know and I'm laying on my back so I unzip my harness and I get my legs because I'm upside down in the glider still well yeah yeah and the reserve's up above and I'm just kind of floating down so I thought well I don't want to go down laying on my back so I thought I'd stand up and go for a ride so I climbed out of my harness and stood up and I'm hanging onto the base bar because now it's like I'm like I'm like I'm like I'm like I'm like I'm above my head right I'm standing on the keel and so I just went for a ride and I remember I remember looking at the ground and oh man those canyons oh shit yeah you're you're in the terrain

you haven't gone off the end out of the flats you're in the you're in the big stuff still oh

yeah well I'm at 50 you know it happened like around 15 to 5 and I was over barcroft I don't you know and and so barcroft is nice and smooth and rolly up top but you know out in front yeah

and but luckily with the wind drift I could see that wow maybe I'm going no it was no I wasn't even looking over the back I was just looking out at the canyon that's right because I didn't even know to look back or you know it all kind of happens fast I remember thinking my mother I'm thinking she is gonna be pissed when I'm dead you know because I didn't call and tell her how you know I was doing in the comp and I usually did and I remember thinking oh I didn't call my mother and now I'm gonna be dead and she's gonna be mad

but anyway I was looking out you know like down the canyons thinking oh this is it I mean how do you survive and little did I know I was skimming this like the peak right above you know this little um you know the the plateau up there up by barcroft it was by the research center that was another interesting thing the whole mountain range right there's only one building along that whole thing and and when I was coming down you know once I got the reserve out I said oh I see a building so everybody knew exactly where I was because there was only one building pretty much in that area so they could you know zero in and know pretty much where I was heading you know about where I was going anyway so they all watched me go in yeah and so I was skimming along this little peak and I didn't even see it and so I you know I crashed before without even knowing I thought I still had you know a couple two three five hundred feet or whatever you know before I was hitting so I was somewhat relaxed when it just stopped you know because I was you know behind me and below me I you know I didn't know what was going on and I just hit and it was over and I was alive it's like oh whoa that's god who

who needs marriott's great america when you've got a hang glider you

just took the best ride there is no shit it took a beating too and well it took the impact really I mean yeah the

glider did it

broke oh god it was disintegrated yeah yeah yeah wow and

now forgive forgive my ignorance with with hang gliding because that's that's that's not my sport but I mean certainly back then I I doubt it but do you have SIV oh god no okay no and you still don't no okay okay no

there I mean the only thing that you you don't practice that stuff you know you practice stalls but a stall on a hang glider is like nothing I mean you push out and it stalls and you pull it and it's kind of like an airplane yeah it comes in and it's like absolutely nothing it's fun

you know it's not like

a paraglider where it wads up and you know you got to do it right or whatever yeah so really

your your your biggest risk on a on a hang glider is what happened is tumbling because something's gonna break

yeah that or you know I mean obviously pilot error if you set it up wrong or you know that kind of thing because there's lots of ways you could screw up I mean there's plenty of pilots that have launched unhooked I'm you know I'm gonna knock on wood on that one because yeah I think I've found a way to have that never happen but um you know but yeah putting the thing together wrong or not hooking in or or you know not you know bend you know like having a bad landing and and hitting a rock with your leading edge which is you know then you have a really weak leading edge and under pressure it's gonna fold you know so that kind of stuff that you just got to be smart about you know and take care of your gear and you know when you load it on a truck you know and you know there's stuff that you have to pay attention to but you know it's pretty straightforward stuff if you pay attention like anything hmm tell you

you mentioned you've got a way where you you never hook in uh are you you never miss hooking in which actually right is that describe that how do you do that because that's probably valuable information to some of the learning why

everybody doesn't do it I have no idea so when you set up your hang glider you just set up your harness as part of your setup of

unless it's hooked into your hang glider perfect

perfect yeah that's

brilliant so and then if you're on launch and you don't like it you turn your glider around you climb out of your harness but it's still attached to your hang glider a lot of people will get in there you know they'll get in their harness and they don't want to be hooked in when they walk to launch well to me that's kind of like this ground handling stuff we do with the paraglider it's like it's stuff you practice I love walking to launch hooked in I mean you feel connected I can handle my hang glider in wind and on a windy launch but a lot of people don't put that practice in to feel comfortable you know in those situations so they'll they'll walk out to launch then hook in so that you know because you are somewhat vulnerable obviously if you walk to launch and it's super windy or gusty or dust out you know you're hooked in so you're going for a ride well if it's are those conditions and you're hooked in that's when you ask for help you know that there's usually people around you grab this wing you grab this wing you grab my nose don't do anything unless I say you talk to them and you just use them um or or deal with it I mean I think it's easy but you know again it's practice I mean yeah

have this have the skills maybe if you don't have the skills uh for that kind of condition then you shouldn't be flying in that anyway so that removes the whole having to hook into the first place right yeah

that's what that'll take care of that sure so

so let's uh take take me down the road of the world championships and then somewhere in there there's a transition but not really a full transition because you still hang glide now correct um

oh I'll do it I don't own a hang glider but boy if there's one on a launch I'll set up okay I would be more than happy to go fly it or you know like a year ago I I got a call and they needed a stunt double to fly hang glider off a cliff in in southern California I went all right then I thought to myself I haven't flown a hang glider in a couple years but that's all right so

paragliding is more your thing now but then you're not flying a hang glider let's rather than advancing uh I believe I've got this math right 35 years from 1981 to now that is amazing but let you know so there's somewhere in here there's this transition but before we leave hang gliding um when did Red Bull sponsorship and world championships happen can you kind of roll all those into one yeah

let's see um 96 1996 95 you know uh we had the another women's world and it was in Australia I won the pre-world and then I won the worlds for the first time so that was my first women's world um after that you know I was at the time sponsored by airwave and that was going great um and I just made a cold call that's right when Red Bull was coming into the country and I think they had sponsored I don't I think they had sponsored one other pilot I'm not sure about the I forget but I remember they were sponsoring people in Europe and stuff and I think they had sponsored one other pilot and I think they had sponsored me I'm a world champion so I called Red Bull up and um you know asked them about it and they said well have you tried it yet and I said oh no I haven't do you like the product I know I know details and so they they go I tell you what go try it and then call us back and I'm well god at least they didn't say no and so I went up I was going to the ski uh mammoth that day so I I was so excited and I went to the store and opened up the you know play the the fridge or whatever where they sold Red Bull and and I saw the price I went oh

but then and then when I tried Red Bull for the first time it was like oh that's interesting because I had no idea no one warned me smushed up gummy bears no one warned me that it was fizzy and I'm not a fizzy drinker you know pot soda drinker or anything I you know I was thinking Gatorade health juice something you know and so it caught me off guard I have to say but then it's like oh I like it I like it I like it I like it I like it I like it I like it I like it I like it I like this and and so uh after a day of skiing I called back and um you know one thing led to the other and yeah then I became a sponsored Red Bull athlete and it was wonderful it was a wonderful ride loved it and it was early on in the in the time too so it was pretty special you know of the those of us that were sponsored and the the team they had and all the other athletes and all the different sports it was pretty cool because the company was small still in

the in the hang glider I'm gonna switch gears a little bit here but the with the with the hang gliding you had the one uh you had the reserve toss um any other uh before we even go that did that change how you your passion for hang gliding did it scare you did it uh change your perspective on anything or was it just yep that's what happens and get on with it

oh god I wish it was that easy and that's a

I went from this girl who like if there was any chance to be in the air I felt why why would you be on the ground that's how I was I was that addicted I loved flying that much and you know just had fun I remember you know my stomping grounds was at 11 or Fort Funston you know and then any chance I could go after work I would be out there and people would be sitting around talking about it I'm like

so yeah I went from you know that kind of person to after the tumble all of a sudden the thing that I love the most now scared the living shit out of me and it was awful you know I I had because I hurt my foot my tailbone a little bone in my back and stuff I had some recovery I think it was a month before I flew again and the first couple flights were fine you know it was fine but when I had to go fly in the islands again I you know I'd hit any kind of turbulence at all any kind of I was a nervous wreck and I'd have to go land so then I'm on the ground I'm bummed because I'm a I felt like a gutless coward I'm like what's my problem you know I'm scared to death because it scared the shit out of me you know and I'm frustrated because it's like wait you know wasn't like this before now now what you know and luckily my boyfriend at the time you know as mean as I thought it was and whatever I have to give him credit he pushed me you know he's like what you're doing you're doing this you're doing this you're doing this you're doing this you're your problem just get out there so what if it's scared to go you know just push push and you know he didn't allow me to be afraid in a way um he just kind of acted like it shouldn't bother me you know even so it's good and you know whatever it is what it is and but if it wasn't for him kind of pushing and and kind of helping me get back on the horse I'm not sure how easy that would have been to to get back on but I I swear it took probably two to three years before I could fly without every single bump freaking me out and then I remember you know after about three years it's like oh wow I'm flying again and I'm not totally a mess um but it took a long time this is

this is super interesting now because you you've had we're going to jump here a little bit but you you you do a lot of instructing and you do and you instruct in you you know quite possibly one of the rowdiest places to fly on earth you know I'd put the Owens right up with Sun Valley wouldn't you and and you know a few other places but yeah I mean the Owens is rowdy as a guest I think

Sun Valley is more rowdy but no that's

and and we think the Owens is more rowdy so there you go but um um you know I have uh been witness uh unfortunately I'm sure you have as well to to people having accidents and I I can often you know you you you like to kind of back it up and and you know what led to this and it's often not always but it's often um pilots lower hours pilots who are flying scared maybe not even lower hours any hours pilots that are that are flying scared because you don't have that whole concept that Bill Belcourt calls bringing it you know you're not flying confidently and uh my my recommendation has always been to people that are flying scared to you know to back away and really you you went you you attacked it the other way which is kind of how I always attacked my

kayaking and skiing and that kind of thing if you've had a bad day well you got to get back on the horse um and and you know get over the fear so with is the is the uh recommendation is the advice that you got from your boyfriend the advice you would give to your students or does or does it just depend on the student well

it really just depends on the student just be a little more kind you know I would acknowledge the fear you know and that it's healthy and that it's

you know and take baby steps to get back on it you know and that's essentially what I did too I mean I didn't just jump back in and you know do big flights after that it it took a while yeah that's a that's a really good question you know I would just have people yeah I would just be kind you know because I because I've been through it myself I know what it feels like and it doesn't feel good for someone to say oh you shouldn't feel that way just get back on the horse it's like bullshit I feel it I'm sorry it scares the shit out of me I don't know what to do with it out of me encourage

don't push you know

right yeah you know and these little baby sled rides is exactly what I need and that's what I'm going to do because this feels good and I'm loving it right now and so that's you know and and that's what I would encourage anybody in that situation and not put yeah and whatever you just said what did you say that was perfect encourage

encourage don't push

exactly right

right you

know a little bit I think we all need a little bit of push too and you know that's a good point I think that's a good point I think that's a good point I think that's why I say I am grateful because I wonder if he didn't you know if I would have pushed to you know where I'm am today kind of thing I I don't know you know would I have been because plenty of people have had stuff like that happen and they quit yeah

right exactly

and because and maybe maybe it's because they didn't have someone you know that was kind of pushing just just enough who knows maybe he knew exactly what he was doing and he pushed just enough to get me I don't know

who knows in this in this career that spans most of your life really yeah have there been so there was that incident if there have been times because it just in you seem to be involved with flying at at at every end you know civil organizations running comps teaching also flying has there ever been a real lull in the in the passion and the desire and the wow factor of flying for you and and if so how have you recouped it wow

that's a really good question and absolutely I have huge waves up and down I mean starting with early on like when we were first getting into paragliding which was I think I started in 1988 um yeah the same year as nationals um but a lot of our friends that were into hang gliding you know this new sport comes out you know paragliding and all the hang glider pilots are trying it well one by one people were getting hurt left and right and and I remember I was in the hang glider and I was in the hang glider and I was in the hang glider and I remember there was a point where I got to where I thought I'm either going to quit everything or I'm going to just step back because I'm sick of watching my friends get hurt you know and I thought god am I next right and so I remember I was you know at that point flying a higher performance paraglider and this and that and kind of starting to push and I thought nope I'm you know and I went back to a beginner paraglider and and I just kind of treated it you know I don't know I just took a huge step back and just watched I felt like you know that's kind of what I've felt with with paragliding you know in general like I'm kind of just sitting back and watching things evolve um kind of like speed gliding and the wingsuiting the base jumping it's like that looks cool but let's just see what this is all about so I I I've definitely had those ways where I'm on the leading edge of something and I'm pushing and I'm playing and then all of a sudden whoa I gotta step back and let the guns pave the way for a while or not pave you know what I mean just kind of play but yeah in the the feeling of you know being you know wanting to be on that leading edge where I'm charging yeah that just definitely comes and goes it it has to I mean in 35 years of flying I mean that'd be cool if I had that kind of passion you know to be on the leading edge all the time but it it's not

there it's when when you went when you were going through kind of the red bull years and the and the comp years and that kind of thing I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I was that sometimes a hard balance um you know having the pressure of of sponsorship and performance and yet having these kind of lulls or maybe whoa so and so just got hurt I want to back off take me through some of that well

most of that I'd say from 97 to um it would have been 10 years you know it was easy you know I was charging I was going I was going I was going you know because I won in 96 then I won in Greece the world championships then again in 2002 I should have quit then that was the best that was the best win ever the two two women's worlds and then I forget what year it was I think 93 oh wait I just went backwards the women's world which I think is a big accomplishment and then I I was flashing back to the Sandia competition that I won overall which to me was a a huge accomplishment and one of those proud moments kind of like I was just saying with the women's world in 2002 that was like I should have quit then and I should have quit after Sandia because Sandia that but that was in 1993 is that right oh my god but yeah around 2006 was kind of the end of my hang gliding enthusiasm kind of burnout you know political

and stuff going on that I just wasn't having fun anymore and the only reason I did any of it was because I was having fun and I figured as long as I'm having fun I'm going for it and so up until then you know I I was just having a blast and then it just started kind of getting funny were

those uh years with the sponsorship was that basically your job I mean was it was the sponsorship and competing covering your living expenses or were you doing other stuff as well no

that pretty much that pretty much you know was my living and

my life and my life and my life and my life and my life and my life and my life and then

you know I did um coaching and guiding on the side um to help supplement and so yeah I was pretty much just flying year round you know whether I was competing or taking people flying when did you move to Bishop I moved to Bishop in 1988 so the year you learned how to paraglide yeah it was all the same year the year I went to the nationals in Tennessee I um I was still in the Bay Area at that time and then I went that was in April then in July I think it was was the Owens you know competition that I tumbled and I met my boyfriend at the time we fell in love during that competition he landed on top to rescue me slick move dude slick move and at the end of that year you know after I tumbled here I moved to the Owens Valley it's like yeah so that's how I that'll cure your

fear oh

shit yeah that was tough that was tough yeah

now you've

got a lot of stuff going on in your life and you've got a lot of stuff going on in your life and you

you I want to put you on the spot here a little bit you you talk all the time about oh well you know I needed to back off or you know I'll get I'll start wingsuit flying when I uh you know get the sack to do it which is kind of ridiculous considering your your history but I mean the Owens you you picked you know one of the most radical places to fly on earth why was that well

well love ah the boy the boy

the boy

love will do many things yes it will yeah it was definitely the boy and you know it was tough it was because I mean those next three years my first three years living in the Owens yeah that was my playground was you know getting yeah getting back on the horn and he loved flying in the middle of the summer in the Owens and I'll never forget I think it was I forget what year 91 92 so a couple years after you know when I was definitely more or less over my huge fear thing um but I remember flying in the middle of the summer it was yeah it was just before the world championships in the Owens the 93 and I said you know what no one's making me fly here I don't have to fly here if I don't like it because that's what it got to the point where okay I'm doing it and I can do it but I don't like it and so I that's when I quit flying there I quit flying hang gliders during the summer and I wouldn't even dream of flying there in paragliders no way I mean that was just me and I kind of still hold that to be true for me I don't like feeling really small in really big air so I pick and choose my air selectively let's say I know what kind of air I like I like carry air I do there's a

it's actually there's a definition it's carrier oh

yes I

like that yeah

when you see carry in the air it's carrier right that's right

so um so the competition start kind of wrapping up 2006 2007 was that really the transition more into teaching in school and that been going on all the time no

I started the teaching guiding shoot back in the early 90s probably 91 yeah someone had um I forget the guy's name up in Shasta they put on a super clinic and they brought in people like myself Santa Croce um Greg Smith a bunch of instructors at the time you know this was still pretty early on in paragliding and they brought us all in they said all right teach whatever you know set up a clinic and you know and and write something up about your clinic and we'll bring students and the students will just pick and choose who they want to go to and so everyone came in and you know someone was doing a reserve someone was doing kiting someone was doing this and that and I'm thinking god what do I teach I don't you know because I really wasn't teaching that much I you know still I was a competitor and so I thought well I know how to fly cross country and I know how to thermal so I put on a cross country thermal clinic and so that kind of started me but it was really hard because I didn't know the flying sites up in the Shasta area and so that's what made me think oh god I could you know that many because I had a lot of interest and a lot of people signing up for my clinics but it was really hard you know we drove like two and a half hours each way to a flying site which was ridiculous and then you get there you don't even know what's going to happen so that's what made me think of doing it in the Owens and so I started you know I think I organized my first thermal cross country clinic in I don't know 94 I

think let's talk accidents and reserves just briefly I don't want this to be a big downer but the uh have you you had the reserve toss on your hang glider have you ever had one on a paraglider nope okay awesome that's amazing but I

had two on a hang glider yeah

you had two can we hear about the second one can

you believe it the first one scared the shit out of me the second one pissed me off excellent this sounds like a story go yeah so I'm at the another women's world this was in Austria in 2004 I believe I was doing great I was in first place overall

I'm almost at cloud base so I'm circling up circling up and all of a sudden something grabbed me and it just spit me out of the thermal and I remember thinking wow I guess I'm going this way you know because for something that big to take you you know you're banked up in a turn you know and saw you're going around and around you're not like flying slow and stupid and all of a sudden it just you know takes you in circles and you're like oh my god I'm in third place I'm in third spins you out the other way you're like okay I'm going this way and right when I thought that then all of a sudden someone it felt like grabbed my keel and just shoved me straight down and I remember thinking I'm not letting go of the bar you know because all of a sudden the memory of losing the bar the last time so I'm hanging on to the bar I'm doing a handstand but my nose is pointing straight down I'm thinking what the hell I'm like I'm not letting go I'm not letting go and the next thing I remember I remember my feet hitting the sail I went oh fuck I'm upside down fuck and and all of a sudden as soon as I felt my feet upside down you know because it happened pretty fast like I'm out and I'm over and then I hit and then all of a sudden it starts tumbling and when it started tumbling I'm in a washing machine with a hang glider disintegrating around me it's just beating the crap out of me you know because it's just bam bam they said people that were watching it you know people above said I tumbled like at least seven times you know over violent and it's it's

Holy moly. And when you're in it, you, you, I mean, you don't know, up, down, you're just kind of surviving. You're just getting beat. Can I, can

I make an assumption here too? You're in Austria. I mean, I know it does get, it does get tends to get, it does not low there, but it's not high like the Sierras. Did you have much time?

Um, luckily I was almost at cloud base. It was a pretty high day. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Or high enough. I had time at that point. I, I had no reference to how high I could have been on the deck. I didn't know it. You know what I mean? I mean, yeah, I guess going, you know, when it first started happening, it could have registered, but you know, once I was in the washing machine, you know, to me, it was almost like lights out in a way. Cause you couldn't do anything. And the only thing, the only reason I could do something is all of a sudden something must've snapped in the glider cause it was disintegrating. I remember everything was kind of breaking up around me, you know, cause it's violent. And then all of a sudden it stopped rotating. It stopped tumbling. And I was again, wrapped. I think I got flipped out to the side of the leading edge. And I remember

looking out at all the wreckage, but I wasn't spinning anymore. I wasn't tumbling. You know, I could see the sky and I thought I have a chance. Holy shit. And I had to think for a second. Oh, where's my reserve? I'm a hang glider. I'm in a hang glider, not a pair. Okay. And I remember, okay, it's on my side. And, you know, I was very thoughtful of, you know, grabbing the handle. And then when I was, you know, at that point I was spinning a little bit, you know, it wasn't violent, but I was turning. So, and there was a lot of, you know, leading edge, ribs, crossbars sticking out in every which way. And I thought I have one chance to throw this. And if I throw it half ass and it gets stuck on something, I'm hosed. And so I remember going, okay, I'm turning this way. I got that sticking out. If I throw it down and around,

it should go. And so I did, I did this like down hook side. And then, then it was a, another one of those fricking rides. And, but this time I'm looking out at a taco. And I remember I was looking down at this mountain that I'm above still one side was sheer rock open, nothing but rock steep, yuck. And the other side were trees and I'm thinking, Oh, trees, trees is good. And I'm trying to steer. I remember cause I was on the side and I felt like when the taco pointed one way, I'd go one way. And then when it was turning the other way, I'd aim towards the other. And I was trying to steer. The taco is what I remember, but I ended up on the tree side and landing in the trees. And it was like the softest landing in between trees. And I got so lucky, not a, yeah, I think I cut my lip.

And so why were you pissed? Just that it happened, you know, cause you know, the fact like either one, I wish I was doing aerobatics or flying in the lee side and gnarly, you know, whatever, so that I could say, okay, I won't do that again.

Oh, I see. So it wasn't really obvious. Like you, you hit it, you hit an inversion or you hit something that was just weird. That wasn't, wasn't, yeah, you were in the right place at the right time and things went weird.

Yeah. So, I mean, to me, it makes me, you know, kind of like the first one too. It's like, I'm flying along and bam. So now I fly in smooth air and it's like, when's it going to hit me? When's it going to hit me? Right. You know, or when I'm, you know, and then the next one happens when I'm thermaling and it wasn't, I mean, it was a normal, it was probably like 800 up. That's not huge. It's wonderful. It's, it's not tiny, but you know, it wasn't radical. It wasn't turbulent. It was mountain, you know, 800 up, you know, stuff we fly in all the time. So that's what pisses me off is that it did that, you know, it's like, and it's, I don't, I mean, what could I have done different? You know, I guess if I was stronger, I could have, you know, when I was doing a handstand and pointing straight down, you know, this is the one thing if I was stronger and could have pulled in, maybe it would have dove out.

It was so strong and violent.

That's, uh, yeah, we don't, we, we pilots like to understand what went wrong, don't we?

Right. Yeah,

that's right. Yeah,

absolutely. You know, cause then at least you could try to fix it. So, I mean, there's so many hang letter pilots that in their whole lifetime, their career, they never throw the reserve and it's like, why me twice? And people, I remember someone said, well, Carrie, think about it. You fly so much more than the average pilot and you put yourself in condition, you know, more of those kinds of conditions that were, you know, you're not more apt to have it. So I guess that makes sense, I guess. Two

things on my mind after hearing all these stories, cause I don't, you know, again, I, uh, I'm a paraglider and, uh, I don't know anything about hang gliding, but I always, you know, when I talk to hang gliders, they're, they're, they always talk about, well, we're on these things that just collapse so easy. And, you know, and we look at you guys going, yeah, but you guys are going really fast. Um, what, what is, what's more

dangerous? More dangerous. They're both dangerous. I used to defend either one, both, you know, going, oh, they're not dangerous. If you're smart and blah, blah, blah. No, look at it. I mean, they are dangerous, but I don't know. It's, it's you, it's us. It's, it's what we put ourselves into the, the wings. We choose to fly the conditions we choose to fly in, you know, the time of day, you know, flying in on days when you're not feeling right or whatever, you know, um, it is dangerous. Who are we kidding? But it's wonderful. Well, let's talk about

that a little bit. You, you've done a lot of teaching, uh, start, sounds like you got started in teaching in the early nineties. Um, you must see a lot of, uh, people making bad decisions. Is there, you know, how do you start off your group sessions these days? What, what are the, you know, what are the things you you've seen more of that require more slaps on the wrists? Are there, are there common ones?

Something that I see that I really have a hard time with are people that, you know, it's that intermediate, that beginner intermediate syndrome type thing where they're so excited, you know, and, and we know it, you know, from our early days, how excited and how blind we are to the fact that we don't know anything. And so these new pilots that get into it and they're so excited, you know, they want to fly cross country. They want to do acrobatics. They want to, you know, do all this stuff. And they don't even know how to take off and land yet. They don't know the first thing about air. You know? And so they're just ahead of themselves in their mind. And it's just because they're excited. And so those people are the ones that, you know, I really want to help and slow them down.

Um, and sometimes, sometimes you can reason with them other times, you know, you have to just let whatever's going to happen, happen. We all get through these things one way or another, or

we don't. Let's talk about the other. And, um, I was with you, this time last year at the, at the Owens nationals, two very good friends of ours went in really, really hard. Um, and I don't really want to break down those accidents because I think people already have. Um, but what did we, and I don't mean you and me, but what did we learn from that? You know, what, what happened there that maybe could have been prevented?

That is a really good question. Um, that is a good question. Complacency. I think I'm not sure. Uh, one of them, but I know of one that was definitely possibly the pilot might've been distracted, been complacent story in my life. Talking to new pilots flying in the Owens is everyone, as far as I'm concerned, plays too close to the hill, you know, and it's one thing you'll hear me say over and over, don't play close to the hill. It's not a place to play close in the, in the mountains. Anyway, you know, big mountains in therm thermal thermic conditions. It's like, why would you be playing close to the hill? Why would you be playing close to the hill? I don't want to hit a thermal right next to the hill. I want to hit it when I'm hundreds of feet above the ground. So it's already established and I'm not going to hit anything.

Why would you play close to the ground? And I, you know, watching people fly over the years in the Owens, it's like, I feel like, you know, way too many people play too close to the hill and don't give them, you know, most people get away with it, but not everybody does. And so that, that, that really bothers me, you know, people playing too close, but lessons learned. I mean, I don't know what you tell me what, well, for, for me, both of

those was reserves. You know, I, I think, I think that, you know, I, I mean, eventually, you know, that that's, that's the, you know, hope the, the part that you, hopefully you never have to get to, but you've already screwed up. You've already played too close to the hill. You've already been complacent. So then, you know, your, your last option then. And I mean, I, I, I didn't have a respect and understanding of until I started playing around with Cody over the dirt, uh, towing this winter, I was doing a bunch of acro training with him. We were doing it over the dirt. So we were talking a lot about reserves. I didn't understand, uh, how long it takes and, and what kind of situation you're in, you know, okay.

If I'm twisted up twice, that's going to take X amount of altitude to deal with. If I'm, if I'm twisted up six times, if I'm totally out of control, like, you know, being

this is not that bad versus this is really fucking bad and getting the laundry out. You know, we kept hearing at the comp, get it out, get it out, you know, and, and, you know,

and we shouldn't be having to say that,

right. That

should be a pilot's first instinct. And that's such a good, right.

And I think that, well, and I think that, um, you know, even in myself, it wasn't until after, you know, hearing it last year at the Owens is one thing, but it wasn't until after doing the acro training and actually having to deal with it, you know, having to use my reserve a couple of times, um, it realizing like, wow, this is not just, this takes some time for it to work. And I'm not, I'm not, uh, encouraging anybody to not throw low, throw it. If you're whatever, it doesn't matter. Jock, jockey told me one time, if you're 10 feet off the ground, throw the thing, but there is no too low. Yeah, exactly. But the, but the other side of it for me was it made me realize how many times I have saved my wing low and gotten lucky, you know, rather than just going, yeah, I may, I may not have this move.

Uh, I'm going to throw my reserve, you know? Uh, and, and, and a lot of things affect that decision, which I think affected those guys, which is you're in a comp. You don't want your day to end. That's retarded. I mean, I'm not, I hope that don't take offense at that, but you know what I'm saying? It's any one

of us. We could be that, that

person. Right. And it's, it's, it's, it's at a comp and no one matters. I mean, I'm no, that's not what I meant. I

mean, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not

the comp doesn't matter. It does. You know, no one remembers who won, who lost. These are pointless, frivolous things that we do for fun. And so, uh, yeah, I mean, give up that day.

Yeah. And, and that reminds me of, you know, one of my last paragliding world championships that I went to invite, you know, this one kind of ended my thing because I watched, um, I watched the Swiss pilot go in and it was so fricking avoidable and that's what pissed me off. And I thought, you know, I am done. Cause I watch this guy, I'm like, I'm done. I'm done. We all did this really stupid move. Anyway, the fricking team lemming move behind the El Pinyon mountain. So we're shooting the gap and I followed along. We're all shooting the gap behind the Pinyon from launch. Um, because one guy went and so the whole gaggle started going and I'm like, no, no, we don't do that. We're not high enough, you know? And sure enough, I'm doing it too. So I'm shooting through, they're going, Oh God, what am I doing? This is so stupid. I was pissed at myself cause I was a team lemming.

So I'm doing it too. And right in front of my eyes, I watched this guy and I'm like, Oh God, what am I doing? This is so stupid. I was pissed at myself cause I have a collapsed, whatever. Uh, he had a, um, cravat, no big deal. He could fly straight. I'm watching him fly straight. And you could see as soon as he'd reach up to try to correct something, you know, on that side, it would start to wind in, but then he would control it, you know? And so he had time, he had altitude every time he reached and tried to fix it, you know, it would start to wind in. And so, you know, it was so obvious to those watching that all he had to do is fly out to the left, out to the Valley. You could fly out with the cravat and land, with the cravat or if worst case scenario, throw your reserve, whatever, you know, but he kept trying to fix it. He kept trying to fix it. And that's the cop mentality. And so every time he wanted to fix it, he wound in.

And one time he was starting to get too low and it wound in and he fricking hit the ground. And it's like, are you fricking serious? He didn't have to do that. And, and, you know, he ended up at head, he flew away from the hill, but I think he was gone by then. And then it wound up again and, you know, landed them in this Canyon and, right in front of my eyes. And I'm like, that sucks. You know, it just took the air out of my sail. I just did not feel like playing anymore. And, you know, it was so avoidable, you know, and it was because he was one of the top Swiss pilots, you know, he was, you know, I think he was, I don't know if he was in the lead, but he was like top three or something. So if he would have went out to land, it would have been the end of his comp, you know, cause it was the start of the race. I'm sure, I'm guessing that's probably what was in his mind that, oh, can't go out and land because no, he can fix it.

He can fix it. So there's that whole, I can fix it until you hit the ground

lesson there. Oh,

it's so sad. It just hurt. It hurt to watch, you know, but you know, we all, we do it like I'm not, yeah, we do it. So you, you know, it's another lesson learned and it's like, all right, I hope I learned my lesson there.

Before we leave comp. So that, that literally, so then that was kind of the end of, of your comp flying? Um,

a pair of gliding comps. Yeah, kind of. Yeah. That took the wind out. You know what I mean? I've seen so much and each one hurts, you know, and you come back after, you know, some time and you fly again and then you see something else and you take some time and all right, then you come back and you see something, it's just like, it all hurts, you know, but yeah, the sport is so wonderful. You keep coming back, but yeah, each one takes its toll. At least for me, it does. Takes a little bit out of you. Yeah, it does. Yeah. Last year with, you know, the, our friends that hit that, you know, that really hurt. Yeah. Yeah. Especially as an organizer.

Yeah. Uh, let's come back to that. I want to talk about something that really cracks me up. Uh, tell me about your ex-alps experience and, and give it, give us some background. Were you the first female to do it?

Well, that year, um, there was two of us. I got this call. I had just had knee surgery. I was on the couch. That 2005?

2005. Yeah. I was on the couch the day before I had knee surgery. I got a call from Hannes Hart and he said, Carrie, we need you to enter the ex-alps. I'm like, yeah, right. I just had knee surgery yesterday. He goes, that's all right. It's three months away. You have time. I'm like, oh, right. I go, I don't know anything about it. You know, like, no, he's like, come on. We just, we need you to enter. We need a woman to enter, you know, and we know you won't kill, yourself and la la la. And I'm like, oh man, you know? And so I remember I said, let me think about it. And I remember I called Will Gadd and, you know, talk to him a bit. And I'm like, what was it like? He said, don't do it.

Yeah. He hated the ex-alps the whole time on the Rockies Traverse. You know, I had, I had, I had applied, but I didn't know yet if I was in and every day he would just say, please don't do this. Don't just don't do the ex-alps. I mean, he hated it. It's so funny.

I know. So what do you do? You do it. Like, what do I do? We do it. Yeah. We gotta, we gotta find out our own way. Don't we? Yep. He was right. Yeah. For someone like you, it is right. But for someone like me, it wasn't, but it, you know, I mean, the thought of it, I love it. Good challenge. So I, you know, after talking to Will and saying, no way. And would you ever do it again? No fucking way. It's like, what do I do? I said, okay. I like a challenge. I didn't know, you know, I'd really never, I didn't follow the first one because this was, I think just the second one. So I really didn't, I'd heard about it. I love the concept. So I really didn't know what I was getting into because the, this was just the second one. And I really didn't follow the first one. I had heard about it and thought how cool it was. Love the concept of hiking and flying.

I mean, it just sounded so cool, but I had no idea really how intense it was. And, but I, yeah, I, I decided to go for it anyway. And I thought, well, you know, I'll just enter, you know, I thought, well, what the heck? So I started hiking up Shlan and Wood Rat. Those were the two competitions I went to in the spring. There was my practice. Yeah. Did I know anything about the Alps? No. Did I know anything about routes? No. You know, that was kind of before internet really. I mean, there was internet, but you know, it wasn't like it is today where you can get it anywhere and everywhere and on your phones and gadgets, you had to do it with your computer. And yeah, it was, it was a different game then.

Yeah. I think it was a much more of a, Will also talked about that, too, that it was much more of an adventure, you know, whereas now it's very professional and, you know, the teams are, I mean, things are moving really fast. I think back then it was more like, oh, hey, my buddy's only 10K behind, I'll wait, you know, that, right. It was more just an adventure across the Alps, which was cool.

Well, you'll love this. So, so fast forward, we're at the, at the X-Alps race now, day one, we all launch, you know, I get up to launch and I'm in my, my, my supporter talks me into wearing these huge mountaineer boots. I don't, cause we're on a glacier, you know, and I didn't know. Yeah. Back then you started

on the Dockstein, right? That was the start of the race. Yeah.

Yeah. And so, you know, I didn't know. And I'm like, all right, whatever. And so I'm up there and I'm looking around and everyone's in tennis shoes and like hardly any clothes, whatever. And I'm like, so we launch and it's this, you know, cloud base is absolute, we're above cloud base and the whole valley was covered and everyone's launching. And I'm like, really, where are we going to land? How, you know, how do you know where you're going? And like, everyone's just going. And I'm like, wait for me. I felt so freaking lost from the moment that the gate go. So we fly and I'm just like gliding along like everyone else. And I'm like, okay, I hope they said, you know, that it'll probably break up and you'll be able to see through. And, and so it was sure enough, you know, 20 K down the, you know, a glide, we were able to punch through the clouds and no problem and come in for a nice landing.

And I'll say, I forget the guy's name, the famous British pilot that did well for a bunch of years. But anyway, we landed together and, and he's like, you know, back up real quick. And I'm just like, wow, isn't this fun? And then my mind, I'm like, we landed together. We're going to walk together. Right. And we're going to have a nice time. You know, he is freaking out of there. And I'm like, Hey, Hey, wait, don't you want to talk? It was so funny. I'm thinking, oh, that's right. This is serious. Wow. You guys are really taking this. I had to laugh just how stupid I was, or, you know what I mean? Just like, I thought, God, come on. Can't we just talk for a little while? You know, which way are you going? I didn't have a clue.

Everyone had it all figured out which way there's two routes. And I'm like, I got to the intersection. I'm like, huh, which way should I go? No. And I'm in my big old boots, you know, and it's like 80 degrees down below the clouds and it's hot and muggy. And oh man, I ruined it. My feet on day one,

blisters. Yeah, that's, those are, those are not the shoes of choice for the XL. So I've got like the lightest runners, you know, that they make.

Why didn't you tell me? Why didn't somebody tell me? It was so funny. I know I laugh about it now, but it did hurt like hell.

There, there, there are a lot of funny things like that. Like, uh, one of the things I learned was that my, my feet started getting much bigger. So, so I had 12 pairs of shoes, you know, that I, yeah. That I'd broken them all in and they were all, you know, and a hundred pairs of socks. I mean, I'm okay. I didn't have a hundred pairs of socks, but I had a lot of socks and, you know, cause the whole, the game is like keeping your feet dry. Right. And you know, but by day three, my size nine feet were like size 10 and a half. And I was like, wait, why didn't anybody tell me? So I had 12 pairs of shoes that I couldn't wear.

Why didn't anybody tell me about this? You know, could

have told you that I went up two sizes. Yep. Yeah. I talked to

Hansa before I talked to everybody and nobody told me that one. But Aaron Durogati, the second day I'm going up, we were totally lost. We've got completely screwed up. We're following this dipshit device that they'd given us. That was terrible. And, and, uh, and I'm on my way up and I'm telling them like, you know, my feet, I actually, they feel big. They're like, they're not going to my shoes. And he's like, Oh, you didn't know that? Uh, yeah. You have to have it.

I can't. Oh, I'm sorry. I could have told you that one too. Oh my God. You're right. That's wonderful. Luckily one

of my supporters wears a 10 and a half. I just started using his shoes from, from then on. Hey, uh, what, one question I, this must just be a funny one. I don't know this one, but, uh, Eric, uh, your, your buddy, Eric, uh, gave me, fed me some questions before, you know, we, we tied in together and he wanted me to ask you about, uh, the jet flying over waltz.

We were up on launch. It used to be such a busy launch in the summer that you had to, in order to get a front row, um, spot to set up and launch in a hang glider, you had to get up there early. Cause otherwise if you set up behind, you couldn't get to the launch, you know, if you've ever been on waltz point. And hang gliders, they take up so much more space, et cetera. So yeah. So we get up there, we claim our spot, we lay our hang gliders down, but it's seven o 'clock in the morning, so we don't need to set them off yet. So we're just hanging out. There's, I don't know, four of us and a little kid. And you know, as often that the jets would strafe us and stuff, you know, from high and whatever. So we're standing there and we hear the, the sound and we're like, Oh my God, listen to the sound and you can hear this thing roar.

And we're like, where is it? We're looking everywhere. Turns out this jet had come up the Canyon on the other side of the spine. So we couldn't see it. And so it comes shooting up that Canyon behind us. And then anyone that's been on that launch, there's a gap where the road goes through that little spine. And that jet came around that corner, up that Canyon, up on a wing tip through the gap. Whoa, right through, right over the road, upside down over our heads, down the Canyon barrel rolling. And every one of us were on the debt flat, just like, you know, and then, and then, and then it's barrel rolling down the kid. And we're like, Oh my God, what the hell?

You know? And the only one standing was this little kid just standing there like clueless and all the adults were laying flat on the deck. Oh my God. It was so intense and so wonderful. It was like, good morning. Yeah. You know, those guys, Holy shit. It was good.

Nate, Nate has a family member that flies those. And, uh, and what scares me about that is, so we get them out of mountain home and a lot of times when we're heading to Montana from here or we're heading to King or, you know, when we're flying over the pioneers, they always seem to be, you know, be kind of between the pioneers and the big lost range. Um, you'll hear, you'll hear them just like you guys do. You'll hear them way in advance and it's so spooky because you don't see them. And, uh, luckily they're usually right on the deck. So usually they go underneath us. And, but what makes me so nervous about them is that when you talk to those guys and you say, Hey, you know, by chance, when you're going mock chicken, would you see us? And they're like, dude, we're not even looking out the window.

We're flying on instruments. You know, basically the answer is absolutely not. So the, the only thing that makes me feel better about it is it would be a quick end, but good God,

those things, they fly so fast. It's so intense. I mean, the feeling that you get inside, it's just like, Oh, well, what can you do? I'm here. I'm a sitting duck. Yep. I figured what a cool way to go.

Yeah. Totally. One of the

odds, right? As long as you don't bring him down to hit. Yeah. I think are pretty slim. And if it did, like you said, it's going to be fast and what a way to go. Totally. You know, it's better than cancer or a car accident or whatever. Yeah,

right. Exactly. I was thinking about that a lot when I was up in Alaska, you know, we were thinking a lot about bears of course. And I was kind of like, you know what, there's a lot worse ways, ways to go. That'd be quick. Kind of bad-ass, you know, I got taken out by a bear. That's freaking cool. Hey, um, Carrie, I want to be mindful of your time. We're, we're about an hour in, but I got to ask you two, two more questions. The first is, uh, another question by Eric. He wanted me to ask you about your first full stall. Cause he said it whole it's this, this is a story that's way better than Cody's, uh, than Cody's talk about full stalls and echo and all that kind of thing is because of course we're doing it in more quote, unquote, modern times. I imagine yours was a little different.

I'm thinking my first full stall. What's a big Denali don't really remember. Well, just the fact that it was out at Flynn's. Ah, okay. Yeah. This was, back in the early days of paragliding when, you know, um, SIV and that whole safety stuff started coming into the scene and they're saying, okay, before you get your rating, you gotta do, you know, big years and you have to do a full stall before we'll sign you off. So it's like, all right. And so someone, you know, had practiced it somewhere and they told us how to on paper, how to do it. And so we just went to Flynn's and one evening, you know, flying out towards the training hill, we practiced our first full stall. Oh, but I mean, and it's long and it worked perfectly. You know, we've, I did exactly what they said and it worked perfectly, but yeah.

Would I do it again? No.

So, so hold on a second here. This isn't how you teach your students now.

No, no, no.

Just launch off Flynn's and stall it over the dirt. I love it. Well,

you know, we didn't know. We didn't know back then. Yeah. And I remember, I remember, uh, I was going to a safety clinic, um, cause it was the, the Wills Wing guys that were, um, you know, pushing it at the time. Um, and I went to the Bay area cause they were doing one and Rob Kells, you know, we're going up the hill and I said, Rob, I don't have a reserve. He's like, Oh, just stuff your jacket in the pocket. No one will ever know. Cause literally we're practices in this shit without reserves. The early days, huh?

Times have changed. So you, you've amassed, uh, just an unbelievable amount of knowledge. And I feel like I, it's my job as an interviewer to tap into that in, in some extent, you know, in, with the culmination of the flying hangs and flying paragliders and the competitions and the X-Alps and seeing the accidents and all the teaching, um, you know, give me like, give me a couple, two, three things that you want to pass on to our audience, which, you know, our audience is, is everybody that flies. It literally are the people who are still just dreaming. I haven't taken their first lesson to full on PWC pilots. So, you know, what are the, what would you, and I'm kind of thinking in terms of longevity, like I'm kind of thinking in terms of the career, you know, perspective.

Um, yeah. What do you, what do you find yourself telling your students or what do you find yourself telling yourself talking to other pilots over a glass of wine that you want to share?

Do it. I'd say fly for the right reason, you know, and for me, you know, I can just speak for myself. I fly. And the reason I think I've been flying as long as I have is because I have, I have fun. And when, you know, like towards the end of my flying, my competition career, you know, when I noticed I wasn't having fun as much fun anymore and it was stressful, it just like, why I asked myself, why would you do it? And so, you know, and everybody's going to be different. I mean, there's going to be, you know, a new pilot could just fly coastal sites, sled rides, soaring flights for the rest of their life and be perfectly happy.

And how perfect is that? Or there's going to be pilots that get into it and then they're going to turn into, you know, huge cross country animals and, and, or acro king dogs or whatever, you know, whatever it is, but make sure you're doing it for the right reason.

It sounds like to me, like the, the right reason is it should be fun.

Bottom line is, yeah, yeah, it should be fun. Cause why else would you do it?

Too dangerous to do it otherwise. Well, yeah. It's not fun. Then what, what, what's the point?

Yeah. It seems so simple, doesn't it? Really? But we kind of, I think people do lose perspective of that and, and maybe do it for the wrong reasons to show off or this or that. I don't know, but boy, if it's not fun,

I do it. Yeah. I like that a lot. Let's, let's leave it there. That's fantastic. You know, Carrie, I love that, you know, live to fly another day, I think is the, is the saying that we all like, and we should repeat to ourselves. Thank you very much. I really appreciate this. We've been trying to put this together for quite a long time now, and I'm glad we did. That was really special. Thank you.

Hey, Gavin. Thank you so much. I'm so glad we finally connected. I love talking to you and I love your enthusiasm for flight and sharing. And, you know, sharing knowledge and that's what this is all about. And that's what I love about flying is, you know, people sharing life's experiences. So thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thanks, Carrie.

I hope you enjoyed that. What a cool conversation with one of the true legends in our sport. I hope you got a lot out of that one. As always, all we ask for is a buck a show. If you got something out of this one or one of the previous episodes, or if you're just finding the podcast, highly recommend you go back and listen to those. There's so much great information there from a lot of the ex-Alps guys like Tom Dorlato or Paul Guschlbauer. Some great acro advice from Cody Mittanck and Andra Prashaska. So go back, check out some of those. And if you want to donate to the show, which I would highly appreciate, each one of these episodes takes, I don't know, six to 12 to sometimes a lot more than that hours of editing. I'll keep doing it. I love doing it. Love sharing this knowledge. But you want to, if you want to donate to the show and help keep it going, you can find those links in the description.

Links on the cloudbasemayhem.com underneath any of those podcasts. If you can't donate, totally understand. Keep listening and maybe put out a shout on to us via give us a rating on iTunes or Stitcher or Google Play or share it on the social media. The whole point of this is just to make us all safer and get out knowledge from some of the great pilots in the world to everybody else. So just share it. That's doing the same thing as a donation. I really appreciate it. Little bonus section here at the end. At one point in the conversation, we got really heavily into two liners and comp wings and all that kind of thing. It was actually more me. I went off on a bit of a rant. If you want to hear some of that, just stick around and, and listen to it. And if not, we'll see you on the next show. Appreciate it. Cheers.

Carrie, you mentioned, I promised that I would come back to this. You mentioned you got out of comp flying because of the accident in Valle, but you were also talking about, I think at one point, just where comp wings were going. Was it just the accident? Was it the accident in Valle? Or was it also flying what we call scarier

ships? Well, no, it was a combination. Not just, no, the accident was just another, but, but the biggest was I wasn't willing to fly the comp wings anymore. You know, especially the early, you know, early two liners that, you know, seem pretty scary to me. And it's like, you know, none of this is worth risking, you know, and there were accidents and, you know, they scared me. And, you know, I don't want, I don't fly well if I'm scared. So I had to make a choice. And so I just quit flying comp wings at that point. I mean, I'd love to fly a performance wing if, if I had the safety feeling that I get, you know, with a glider like a Delta. But it's true. I mean, God, I would love, I mean, I see what those, those two wing glider, the two line gliders, whatever you want to call them, you know, they do and they perform and oh my God, it's so cool.

Because I love having performance like, like I did in the hang gliders. I love it. But yeah, the risk. I feel like it's risky. And I know they've gotten better. You know, everyone says, you know, the two liners now are so much better and so much more solid. But isn't it true when the shit hits the van on those, you got to be on it? Or is that, has that changed?

Totally. You know, I mean, this, this is an interesting thing that, you know, that's worthy of a conversation, you know, way beyond even me and you. We had an accident here about three weeks ago, a guy on a, on a CCC glider. And was that the problem? Not really? It was really where he was and low. And, um, but, uh, I've had varying degrees of my, my viewpoints changed on this over the years. But like when you, when you look at, say like an ice peak six, uh, you know, bell car would call that like a hybrid two liner to me, for me personally. And I'm not, you know, this isn't meant for the audience. This is just for me. Um, I feel like it's the safest glider I can fly because it, uh, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it

one, when you're on a two glider, your leading edge is stiff as a board, you know, so it just does not frontal. Um, and, and you've got all that bar performance and speed to get you out of bad places. So if you're flying in places like here in some Valley, when we're crossing ranges, you're not just sending it out into the flats. You know, we often have to put it in pretty dicey spots. So I like having a wing that's got a lot of speed and it's got, you know, that I can stomp on the bar and I don't have to worry about my, my leading edge goes going. Now, the caveat with that is you've got to be flying a lot of hours and you've got to know how to use your bees and you've got to be super on it because you're exactly right. When they, if they do go, what you can't let them go.

You just, you know, you, you just, you just can't let them go. And if you're flying, if you're flying, I would say, you know, if you're flying a lot of hours and you're on top of it, then it should never go. Uh, Russell, Russ Ogden gave a great talk about that after the world cup here in 2012, where he was saying, you know, like, listen, if you have a frontal on this glider, you're not ready for that glider. That should just not happen.

Right. You know,

so you, you have screwed up like those, the gliders, just the two liners these days, they talk to you so much that, you know, they are sending you all those signals should never just be a blind hit. And so, so yeah. So there's a lot of caveats there. Now for ice peak six, which used to be like the comp wing, you know, along with like the Enzo, these CCC gliders. So the ice peak eight, the Enzo two, the Enzo three is coming out. That's a different ball. That's a different glider to me. That's not the same two liner that to me, I mean, they are gorgeous. It's amazing what they can do. I mean, the, the glide, everything on those is, is percentage higher and better. And they're just, they're magnificent.

But to me, why would I fly one of those in sun Valley? I, to me, I don't think that that extra little 5 % means anything unless we're racing, you know, like to just go downwind. You know, we, we had a big day a few weeks ago where a dude on a mentor blew me out of the water by 60 K, you know, I, I was on the peak four. I'm not on a CCC glider, but I mean, you know, we're flying downwind. It doesn't matter that much. And, you know, if you're going for an eight to 10 hour flight, um, I think you're going to go farther and do better if you're on a glider that you don't have to manage as much, you know, that you don't have to be so freaked out on. And so, you know, like flying in the Owens last September at nationals, you know, I, I like the move that Josh made flying the UP, you know, that, that made a lot of sense to me, you know, rather than flying, um, you know, most of the people were on the hot ships.

And I, I think you got to pick your place, you know, like if you're flying the green grass of Europe, uh, for a two and a half hour PWC, you know, most of us, if we're flying like hot ships, you know, we can keep it together for three or four hours. No problem. But seven, eight, nine, maybe you haven't eaten as well. Maybe you haven't, you're not as hydrated, whatever, you know, you're in the Sierras, it's freaking hot, whatever, you know, I don't know. I, I, so then, then I think that argument starts to break down. And then I think I'm way more with you. That like, wow, I don't really get why these guys in the Wasatch and here, and then the Sierras are flying CCC gliders on free flight days. I don't think that makes that much to me again, they're going to argue another thing, but to me, I don't think that makes that much sense because you're, it is a more demanding glider to keep open.

And if it closes on you, if something happens on you, for sure, you, you, you, you're, you're in a wrestle match.