Hi there everybody, welcome to another episode of the Cloud Base Mayhem. This is number 19, I believe that's about 19 in our first year of operations, more than I thought we'd do and a lot less than I'd hoped to do of course, but before we get into this one with Jocky Sanderson, the legend, I'm so excited to bring you this show, just a few little logistical things. I'm taking off for Alaska here in a few days, Dave Turner and I are going to attempt to fly the full length of the Alaskan Range, this is another Red Bull project. Some of you may have seen just recently Red Bull TV put out, it's live on the internet free, you can watch the Rockies Traverse, that's been on tour now for the last few months with BAMF and a bunch of other festivals, but you can watch it live now in HD on TV, so hopefully you get a chance to check that out.
Pretty fun film by Real Water Productions, Red Bull Media House documents Will and I's line down the Canadian Rockies to the U.S. border back in 2014. We got the National Geographic Adventures of the Year for that one, which was pretty cool. But yeah, I've been getting a lot of comments on that, if you haven't checked it out you can find that on my Facebook page or just Google it, it's all over the place right now. Super psyched for this trip to Alaska, we plan to take four to eight weeks to complete this, so I've tried to line up a couple podcasts that will be released while I'm gone. I've got this one of course now with Jocky, I'm also sitting down with Bruce Goldsmith this weekend. I hope one person more, I'll leave that as a surprise, and then, but otherwise I do apologize, I won't be able to turn these out like I usually do when I'm in Alaska of course, because we're pretty much off comms.
You can track that whole thing, we're going to have kind of live tracking through Delorme, we're going to have a map page put up by them and Dave Wheeler, that'll also be on Cloud Based Mayhem and on Facebook, so you can kind of see what's going on with that whole thing. It's pretty nerve-wracking in a lot of ways. I've got a little article. I've got a little article coming out in Cross Country about it, about the preparation side of things in the next issue, so be on the lookout for that, but counting, we're crossing more glaciers than I can even count. We're going to fly the north side of the range, this is all theory, no one's flown up there really, so yeah, should be pretty interesting. Now anyway, this podcast, yeah, Jocky Sanderson, I did an SIV, well, really more of an acro clinic with him back in 2012 in Oladeniz in Turkey.
Jocky's just got so much energy, I've been watching his films for years, I was totally addicted to performance free flying. His films Security and Flight, Security Flight 2 are just phenomenal, if you haven't seen them, you must get them, they're fantastic. This episode is packed with info, we go way down the rabbit hole on this one, on all kinds of things, modern wings, should you carry two reserves, a lot of things that I think are really going to surprise you. Is SIV necessary, who is SIV good for and bad for, when are you ready, when are you not, when should you repeat, what's the most important maneuver you should have in your toolkit, all kinds of, I think, really valuable information.
I also asked a bunch of questions that came through via the Facebook for Jocky, which he was happy to answer, so I think you're going to love it, I certainly did, without further ado, Jocky Sanderson.
Jocky Sanderson, it is awesome to have you on the show, sorry for that little blip there, we're going to have to redo this, but where are you these days, what are you doing, and thanks for your time.
I'm at home, actually, this week, just got back from Australia, and we're just doing some nice family stuff, hanging out, relaxing, before we head off to Turkey next week.
Okay, yeah. You set an incredible record. Absolutely, a busy schedule, you know, when we met, I took a course from you back in Turkey in 2012, doing an acro thing with Johan, one of your buddies, and that was really kind of the ramp up, that's what started me on all this absurdity, and the X-Alps and everything else, and then the last time I saw you, we were getting ready for the X-Alps in Annecy in June.
That's right, yeah, and it's great to see you, it's great to follow your progress as well, from doing the SIV and acro, to flying and billing, when we met and flew with John Sylvester, and then in Annecy, it's been fantastic, you just keep it up, keep that energy and enthusiasm.
Yeah, yeah. Oh, well thanks very much, well it's, you know, I go on the coattails of guys like you and mentors that have gone before me, you know, usually I like to ask about, take me back and share with me some of your history, but I don't think I'd get to ask a second question if I did that with you, my goodness, you've been at this 30 years. Yeah, yeah,
25, 30 years, yeah, over a quarter of a century. That is
just, that is just amazing. You mentioned John Sylvester, what a legend, no, I love that guy, yeah, really, I was, I did my first bivvy trip with him, from beer, yeah, that's right, you were there,
you camped out and flew back the next day, didn't you?
Exactly, yeah, it was amazing, the next day we were encased in ice that night, I didn't bring a sleeping bag, I just brought all my down, I figured, well that, you know, I fly and it's cold, it can't be any worse. And made a little fire that night and wrapped myself around the fire and woke up the next morning at 9.30, it was already on and dialed up and flew back to beer before anybody had even launched in beer, I just thought, oh my God, John, this is amazing, we've got to do more of this.
Definitely, that's what got you addicted to X-Up stuff.
Totally, that was the first one, yeah, I have to give him all the credit, absolutely, yeah, that was, I just thought, man, I really need more of this, that's where, Cedar Wright calls it a sky crack.
Hey, so what I would love to start this off with, rather than hearing about all those comp years, which I know is exciting and I'd love to have you tell me a story of that, but how did you transition from comps, I believe it was kind of the late 90s with Robbie Whittall and John Pendry and all those guys you were flying around with, how did you go from that to what you're doing now, because I think, you know, this instructional side has been really the greater part of your career. Yeah,
I mean, I really enjoyed competitions, they're fantastic, I never really, I mean, I enjoyed it for flying with my friends and having a great time, and being paid and sponsored to travel the world and just fly is just a tremendous, tremendously fortunate thing to be able to do, but I never really had that killer instinct wanting, you know, oh, you always enter a competition wanting to win, but I enjoyed it too much, and you know, I mean, I finished third and stuff like that, and it was good, good fun, but I much preferred teaching actually, it's just sharing knowledge and seeing smiles on people's faces as they achieve things, so I got more of a reward from teaching, but the main reason I stopped was just to start in a family, and not being able to justify competition flying when you've got young kids.
Was a lot of that because of the risk, or was it more the competition? A little
bit of both. Okay. So, I mean, I'd been doing it for 10 years, and it was just about time to start a family, and I had to cut out a few things to keep me home a bit more, and the competition was one of the things that went really, but I mean, I always look back with great fondness, I think it's a fantastic thing to do, and brilliantly rewarding, and incredibly bonding with other pilots sharing it, and it really teaches you a lot about yourself, you know, from competitions, to preparation, to discipline, you know, the whole thing, and it's great, great to do, especially when you're young, but at any time in your life, as long as you want to do it, that's the key, don't feel like you have to do it.
And how did the SIV thing start? How did that, was that pretty common back in the day, to be doing SIV training, or did you kind of lead the way?
Well, we, what we did is, we, I used to test for ACPOLs, and we used to do some, you know, sort of testing for manufacturers, and some development work, and for our British Association, and it was very, you know, we did, we did testing, and it was, you know, testing for distillation, spin, stall recovery, things like that, and it was very young then, there weren't really SIV courses as such, but it was, it was something that I thought people would benefit from, learning themselves, and they weren't really courses, they were sort of, they were similar things, but not very, not very, you know.
And so, we put it together, what I basically did was put a test flight, broke it down into a course structure, so deflations, searching for spins, searching for stalls, stalls and spirals, and various other manoeuvres, and so you sort of break a test flight into a course, and then that's how the SIV course has evolved for us, anyway. And, you know, I think it's a thing that people do benefit from, it gives them confidence, and it gives them understanding in their glider, and confidence in their ability to control it, so it's a thing that worked, so yeah, it's a great thing to do.
Your videos, performance free flying, you know, I had that on the boat as I was sailing around the world, I learned in 2006, and I would watch that video over and over, I mean, my God, it was like, it was like the Matrix for me, it was just something I just could not get enough of, and just the quality of it, and the way you instruct, I've been trying to send people your way forever, ever since those early days, but how did you, I guess, let me ask a different question, how have things changed for you with SIV, with modern gliders, how have you adapted over the years, and what have you seen, is it getting safer, I'm asking, what's the difference? More than one question here, but is it getting safer?
I think in general, yes, it's, what's happening is, in the old days, people used to have to, in order to get performance, they'd have to sacrifice a little bit of safety, so to get that top end of speed, they'd have to fly a glider that was quite fast, or quite dynamic, and so they'd sacrifice a bit of safety, these days, with modern design technology, the curve of performance, and the curve of safety, are sort of nicely matched now. And so, and also, because of education, pilots are flying gliders that are well within their remit, rather than feeling they have to fly gliders that are way faster, or more dynamic than what they're practically used to. So it's, in general, it has got safer, yeah, with glider design, and with pilots flying sensible wings now.
With the two liners and stuff like that, that's where it becomes more dynamic, more interesting. With the shark nose, with the rakeback line, that's where it becomes more dynamic, more dynamic. With the lines rigging, and stuff like that, that makes it more, we have to change the style of teaching, and just develop as the gliders develop, really, and to, we always have to evolve. Every single SIV instructor would turn around and say, you can never relax on your laurels, you have to keep watching and seeing it develop, because whether, if you can fly the gliders yourself, even better, because then you can put it through all the paces yourself, and really understand what you're doing. But also, you see patterns emerging as pilots are flying out, and they're doing stuff, and you think, wow, that was interesting. So you start playing with gliders and seeing the best way to get cravats out, things like that.
But in general, all SIV instructors have slightly different ways of teaching, but the main message is pretty much the same, I'd say.
And how much is enough, or not enough? How much should people be doing SIV training?
For themselves? Yeah. Yeah. I think when people ask that, you know, when should I do one, and you shouldn't have to do one, never feel you have to do one. I think the key is when it's holding you back, when that feeling of doubt is holding you back. So, you know, you get to a stage in your flying where you're thermaling, and you're getting to base, and you're flying, but there's a little bit element of doubt, you're looking at your wing a bit, you're braking a bit too much, you know, and you think, what happened if? And then when that starts to happen, you know it's time to do a course, because that's the time when you think, right, actually, you know, I want to free up a bit more concentration to focus on good things in my flight, not the negative, which is looking at my glider and trying to control it.
So when they get to that stage, which is normally about, depends how you fly, where you fly, but it normally is between 50 and 100 hours, as general. People often want to do it much earlier. than that, and some much later, but generally, that's the way it will go, where they're just thermaling, they're just getting into their first 20k flights, and then they start to think, and that's when they start to do an SIV course, that's when it really benefits the pilot, because they get the understanding of the wing, that trust in the wing, and that trust in their handling, it's all about being quick to react, but also quick to back off as well. And that's what SIV teaches you. And you know, it's very important to that people want to do it.
And that's why I say to people, if they've got 10 hours, and they really want to do it, then I wouldn't hold them back either.
Because they're a blank canvas when they're so, so little experience, they're just full of enthusiasm, like puppies. But they've got that Mr. Magoo, they get away with anything just with blind optimism. And they're generally flying gliders that are pretty safe. So they have a ball. And they do these maneuvers that they thought, you know, in three days, you do maneuvers you thought you'd never be able to do. And the progression is very progressive, we don't accelerate people. But it always feels right when they're doing the certain maneuver that they're about to do. And if it doesn't, then they just either hold or go back a few stages. But generally, people really enjoy it and get a lot out of the course. And also the trust in the glider is immense. But then you can have the same guy coming on a course.
Who's already quite fearful, and doesn't enjoy flying. And he's come on a course to give himself more confidence. That's the wrong take, because you need to build your confidence up. And you need to build it up in a nice, progressive way, not force yourself. You've got to always land, wanting to go back up and do it again. And that's I think, the key for anyone that does any sort of maneuvers or pilotage, or acro, anything. If you don't have confidence. If you land thinking, oh, thank God, that's over, then you should stop thinking about doing something else. But if you're landing, wow, that was fantastic, I want to go and try that again. That's when you know it's really working. And SIV does that. You land, and you think, oh, if only I could be up there again.
I just want to do that again, to just make it a bit better. That's the sort of buzz you want to get.
I think that's really important, for sure. I think the listeners will get a lot out of that. And how should you keep going with that? Because I... When I came and took your course, I was kind of different. I was taking the acro side of things, but everybody there was taking your standard awesome SIV course. And it's so funny to watch the progression of the week, because in the beginning, people are a little bit nervous, and then they start to get some confidence, but it's building up to the full stall day. And the full stall day, everybody is silent. Everybody's just so nervous to go up and do their... And then they do it, and it's awesome, and they land on the beach, and they're through the moon. And I remember, I think it was in Performance Flying, you said, whenever you get a new wing, that's the first thing you do, is go up and do full stalls and get used to that wing.
And I've always done that with all of my wings. That's the first thing I do as well. But you do want to be comfortable, especially if you're doing it over the dirt, with full stalls and acro stalls and that kind of thing. But how do you take people, where do you leave them at the end of the course, and when should they come back? And what should they still be doing? I
think we always want every pilot and instructor around the world wants to finish the course feeling confident and happy with their wing and happy with their abilities to control the wing. That's what the whole thing is designed for. I think the minute you're doing a course and you start to feel a bit... Everyone gets nervous, but it's a positive sort of nervous, because once they do it, it's fantastic, and it builds on the next maneuver they're about to do. And so we always want them to go away armed with more confidence and more positive attitude towards flying. I think during a course, it's key for us and for any SRV instructor to see if a person's not responding or not really enjoying it, to just gently slow it down, slow the progression down and focus on the stuff they're good at, the stuff they enjoy, and so that when they land, they land more positively.
They're more positive and more hungry to learn more. And then we just gently steer them into the right channel, and then we can get them back on track to learning more about the wing and stalling and stuff like that. But you see, stalling now, it's an amazing thing. The course, always stall day is a quiet day, because that's the one that they're building up to. But funnily enough, now I always ask with stalls and spirals, so which one did you like? You're most nervous of the stall, but was it the stall you didn't like? Or was it the spiral you didn't like? And now the trend is they don't like spirals. They like the stalls. They weren't as bad as they thought. And it was the spirals they didn't like. So interesting the way it's gone, mainly because people are very fearful of blacking out with spirals and things like that, and there's a lot of locking in issues that we have to address now.
So that sort of thing. But yeah, it's funny how trends go, you know, in a decade, they've gone from absolutely hating stalls to not actually liking them. They're not minding stuff. But again, with stalls, you know, you go in, you teach sort of a full stall, so they lock their arms so that it's safer because they don't accidentally release it and let it dive over them and have a horrendous time. But as they get more progressive and they understand the forces, then we go more into sort of stall and tail slide and easing up the brakes and monitoring that dive and learning about that pressure point. So it's, you know, there's finesse. And training, even to stalls, they're not so binary as on and off. And that's what, you know, a good SIV course should sort of bring that out rather than just ticking boxes.
It should always have a pilot landing and finishing a course thinking, yeah, most of my questions were answered and my confidence has gone up, you know, and it's opened the door to making you more hungry to learn and give you more confidence in your flying. Yeah. And I don't think people need to come back all the time. A lot of people get the bug and think, yeah, I've got to do this every time when I get a new wing or, you know, every couple of years I'll come back. I think once you've got the understanding of it, it's there, it lasts for quite a long time. I think what it does do now with the beauty of Acro is it shows, wow, you know, I can have this much fun on my glider, which is designed for, generally, they're designed for thermaling.
And cross country flying. But look how dynamic and actually safe, you know, a glider is and big wing-overs and big transitions and the fun you can have. And it's starting to sort of people are now thinking, well, I enjoyed that so much. I'm going to try SATs and wing-over moves and, yeah, looping moves. And if I really enjoy that, I'm going to progress more into Acro. But that's just a complete another sport. You know, it's independent in itself, isn't it?
But it's so correlated, isn't it? You know, I've just... I
was excited
after the X-Alps this year that I really needed to focus very heavily on Acro in these next couple of years before the next one, because it just, it allows you to get into worse air more comfortably. You know, it's just that training of knowing what your wing's doing without looking at it. That feel is, you just get so sensitive with Acro. I think they really correlate.
Yeah, definitely. And the great thing is it's correlating through play. Yeah. Yeah. That's what pilots do. We're up there enjoying it, you know, and that's the key. That's the end of it. We're up there because we're playing and we're enjoying it. And if you're doing Acro and having a ball and playing, it's a totally different spin to if you're up there being terrified on a wing that you're looking at and, whoa, just trying to overbrake and you're just not having a good time. The same pilot and the same wing can be totally different headspace. And, yeah, as you say, you know, doing Acro, totally, because you're so attuned with the glider and the pitch and the dial. And the handling, you can really, you don't, you're not even thinking about it. And that's what SIV does. It sort of sows that seed and gives you that little bit of confidence.
But obviously, you know, four, five days of an Acro SIV course will not make you a master. You have to go away and practice and practice and get really into it. And taking the X-Alps example, that's a great example because you look at the conditions you fly in, the wind conditions you have to take off in. No, you don't have to. Yeah. If you want to compete. And you're safe. Yeah. If you want to win or have a chance. But it's not dangerous. It's not dangerous if you train. And that's the key. So you get a lot of pilots that judge X-Alps pilots. Oh, they're just lunatics. They're not lunatics. They're just such athletes. They've trained so hard. They can pop a glider up in 40 Ks of wind easy and get off a boulder field.
No problem. Because they know they can. Because they've trained. And it's all about training. So teaching SIV and teaching cross country, we show the pilots a door. But it's up to them to go through it and practice and do more and more to get to whatever level they want to get to where they get 100 % out of the sport that they love.
One of the questions, Jockey, I get a lot are people that come in and they go, gosh, it's so great to hear from all these people that it's basically their profession. They get to do this all the time. But hey, I've got a job. I've got a family. I can really only fly on the weekends. How do I get good? What do we say to them, the 50-hour pilots a year? What should they be focusing on?
That is such a good question.
I'm really there for them because they do. They've got priorities. They've got families. They've got work. And they've got perhaps two weeks of a year they can treat themselves to going on holiday with their friends flying if they're lucky. And so you've really got to. We always say to our guiding teams, look, anyone that comes on a week with us, we have to give them 100 % because this is their week. And we've got to give them whatever they need to give them as much flying, as much knowledge, because time is precious for people. But I think the key is getting stuck in with a group that is as enthusiastic as you are. That's one thing. So don't feel you have to just go. Go on a hill and wait to introduce yourself to people and just get a group of like-minded people.
And so if you're feeling a bit flat one weekend, a bit tired, then someone's going to call you and get you out if you're in that group. So you get a group. They're all like, come on, let's go out. It's looking good next week. And even if you're busy at work, you might get a little text from your buddies saying Saturday's looking good. And suddenly you're on it rather than just waking up doing nothing on that Saturday. You're actually up focused. And you've got, you know, guys in the team. The team that are following the weather, the geeks are following the best routes to do. And then you're providing the transport and out you go and you fly as a team and with a bit of banter and you're really getting the most out of the day. And that's the way you'd benefit. That's the way any weekend flyer would benefit from flying. And that's what's happening in the UK now.
It was led by, you know, Barney and Mike Cav and all the guys. They're doing these mega distances and they're all doing it because they're just a group of mates having a laugh, researching the weather and going for it. And there's no reason why weekend flyers can't do that. And it makes it so much nicer. You know, when you think, could I be asked to go flying today? You know, yes, you should. And if you've got three or four mates calling you up saying, hey, what about it? Then it makes you do it. So I would say get out and practice as much as you can and get a little group of buds that are the same, different characters. You can't be all the same, but the same, the same focus, the same love of it.
And then keep away from the ground suck. When you get onto the hill and they're sitting there saying, all right, it's not looking that good. Yeah, I won't be going up today. Look at that. Oh, you're going to collapse. You know, keeping away from them and focusing on the positive. And if you arrive with your mates, there's nothing nicer. You know, we arrived. I was flying in Australia last week and I was fortunate enough to get my boys out. So Josh and Seb came out and we had a family holiday for two weeks. And we arrived. Josh flies now. And we arrived at this Blackheath, this place. And we just looked it up. We phoned a few friends. The guys, the local pilots were fantastic.
They gave us top advice. We all went down. We shared some great flying together. And a little bit of banter on launch and landing. What a great day, you know, and it's all about not turning up on your own feeling that self-conscious. It's about, you know, being with people and not being afraid to talk and get stuck in with other people. And you can do that better as a little pack, a little gaggle of buddies. And that's what I would love to encourage.
I like that. Surround yourself with good folks and mentors and it'll all, it makes it a lot easier. Doesn't it? Um, yeah.
Exactly. And if you, if you're not, you know, you might be the one fizzing people up one weekend and then others might be fizzing you up the next. And that's the way it should go, but just keep away from the negative ground, suck posse and just get on and do your thing.
Jockey, um, not to go to the dark side here, but just because it's paragliding and it is, it is part of the sport, um, accidents you've, I'm sure seen plenty in your years. Um, are there common threads and themes, um, that you see that, that cause them?
Uh, yeah, I would say it's people, um, often just flying in environments. They're not a hundred percent comfortable with themselves, but feel that they should be. Um, and often that's, we all have, um, performance peaks and troughs, confidence peaks and troughs and, um, attention peaks and troughs. And it's as a pilot, the B the beautiful thing about the sport. The sport we do is you have to be honest with yourself because, you know, your judgements are final. And if you make a mistake, you quickly change it and do another one and live, you know, learn from it. Um, and I think with people that have long breaks, um, people that fly,
um, in conditions that, yeah, last year they flew in the same conditions, but this year they're a bit jumpy and they're not as quick. Um, they try to sort of justify doing it and being there. They're probably, the head's probably already screaming at them to get outward. And that's when they're flying outside their, um, comfort zone, but feel they should be there. That's when accidents happen. You get this great, the great thing. Matt Gerdes wrote an article recently about, you know, having that knowledge, you know, being totally naive, but full of enthusiasm. And then you get to, you get. The knowledge and then you, uh, you know, and it's all about knowing yourself and operating within it, push the boundaries gently when it feels right.
Push when it doesn't feel right, just back off, but you don't have to do anything. You, that you feel that people think you should, like, you know, there's a lot of people that fly gliders, for example, that a bit racy, um, because they're chief instructors, they feel they have to fly them. Um, and which is wrong, you know, you sh you should, you should fly what you're comfortable with. Uh, we, for example, I, I flew, you know, in comps for years, you know, with, uh, prototype gliders for years, but if I take, uh, just, you know, I don't fly much, or I take a little confidence curve one year, I'll, I'll drop down. I've dropped down to a rush before, um, and cruising around on that. Cause I'd rather be still flying, but in it, in, in an environment I'm happy with than forcing myself to fly on stuff that I'm not happy with.
Cause that'll make me stop flying eventually. Uh. Um, so you drop, you, you drop your game a little bit, you enjoy the flying buzzing around in safe gliders. It then feels, you feel hungry to do more and more, and then you come back up again. So you go back up and, you know, I've gotten flying my M six cruising around, having a ball and it's all about that. And we, you know, you look at all the top guns at work at it all the time, even John Sylvester and all the guys that are flying big conditions, you know, they can often, you know, if they've, um, they'll drop down to a few deltas or, you know, any. Mid-range glider or a lower glider, if they're not feeling happy that time, and because they're athletes and they know that's what they're comfortable with. Uh, and I think practice and being comfortable in your skin is important because, um, you know, the, the, the, the great thing about aviation is the decisions stop with you.
And so accidents often happen when you get all these variables start playing their part. Not one. One is a singular one. You can put your finger on, but they all start playing their part in contributing to the, to the mistake you end up finding yourself in, whether it be in conditions you shouldn't be on a glider. You shouldn't be, um, or, you know, at a time you shouldn't be, you know, they all play their small part towards, towards the actual incident itself. And it's, you look at any incident and you, you rewind the clock and there's something you can learn from it.
When should, when should a pilot, when is a pilot ready? Yeah. To step up and, and why should they do it? Uh, obviously for the better performance, but, um, is, is there, is there a, uh, a moment or what do you, what do you advise pilots to do? Because these days there's a huge spread in the B and C range. Wouldn't you agree? I mean, there's the, you know, the hot B's are, you know, Will Gadd flew the Carrera on our Rockies traverse. You know, he's one of these incredible pilot and it was, you know, unless, unless there was a lot of wind, you know, I was on the peak, uh, the peak three, a D, you know, he, he was just had no trouble keeping up. So, I mean, I think you can do astonishingly amazing flights as we've seen in Europe in the last few years, guys on mentors just sending it.
Um, but, but when,
when should
a pilot move up?
Um, I, I always think when it's holding them back, when, you know, there's a feeling you get when you're going on a glide or, or you're just, there's a point. There's a point in your flying where you just, you want more, your stomach muscles are tense. You want more out of it. Um, that's when you step up, but not, you're not, when you think you should, um, not when your gliders got tired and you want another glider, you think, well, it's another glider. So I need to go up. You go up when you feel when it's, it's a feeling and, um, you know, when the time is right, you're not, you don't step up because you think you should, you step up because you, you, uh, you feel held back by the glider you're in, but again, you know, if you're in a glider, that is like the career was career is a brilliant, you know, in the right hands, they're absolutely, they're absolutely fantastic wings and they fly brilliantly.
Well, and, you know, look at that, you know, the, the rating it's got, the performance it gives, do you need to go up, you know, do you, you know, and it's great to fly a really good glider a hundred percent and fly one that is a bit racy. And you're starting to. Oh, not as well. And it's all about that currency, uh, and flying. Cause I mean, you know, the guys that fly the ends, those and, uh, the peaks and all, you know, they, they're just beautiful gliders to see and fly, but you've got to be current and you've got to be on it and you've got to be, you know, there all the time flying it. And quite often, as soon as you start dropping off the currency and dropping off that, that hunger, then, uh, yeah, you should gear down.
And. Don't be afraid of gearing up or down. It doesn't make any difference, but you shouldn't have to go up or down. It's, it's when it feels right.
Jackie, you talked about, cause you, you teach a phenomenal XC courses as well. You Chris. And, um, when you talked about, uh, the low hours pilots surrounding themselves with a, with a good gaggle of folks and not the ground suck folks, but, um, more on the technical side of things. Like, what would you say are the three things that, that, uh, come up again and again in terms of. Um, I
would say launching, um, make sure that you really, cause there's nothing worse than getting to a launch and going, oh crap, I'm high wind launches. Cause you've already started on a negative. You're already thinking, oh my God, I don't think I can get off from there. You know, but if you, if you know, you can nail, uh, no wind launches, reverse launches with a tailwind, um, high wind launches, you know, the Aussie or the Cobra launch, you know, practicing. All these different styles of launching so that, you know, you, you don't even think about it. You look at it, you're looking at the sky and you appear at the takeoff and yeah, I can get off there and you bump up, it goes bump off. I'm gone. And it's something that is, you can't practice enough. And, uh, and I don't mean wait till it's honking wind and then go on a football field, which is flat and then get dragged around a bit and then give up.
I mean, you know, go in nil winds. Go in five, 10, 15, 20 Ks more of wind, different variations of it, different angles of slope as well. Everyone thinks they, they have to ground handle on the flat that you don't. When you take off on the flat, you know, you want to go on a hillside, steep hill. Everyone, the funniest thing I see people, I take people to hills and they see a steep launch and it's quite windy and they think, oh my God, that's horrendous. And it's like, that's safe. If you can do it right, that's safe. You know, so why are you afraid of it? You shouldn't be afraid. You should be able to just get there, get it ready, learn the little tricks that don't expose yourself to risk, you know, like having the glider prepared and getting it all bunched ready so that you can just present it to the wind and bang, you're up and gone and you know, which way you're turning.
Everything's all right. Gone. There's no kerfuffling around. So yeah, I would say ground handling. Definitely.
Um, knowing your kids. Okay. Uh, uh, is an important one because the time you, I'm guilty of as well, you know, you get some kit and you start fiddling around with it and already, oh shit, I missed that thermal and oh no, I can't, my Vario is annoying me because it's set wrong. You know, all those little things you should be able to be a machine when you get onto that launch, uh, you should have everything ready, everything prepared. So you, you know, your flight, your kit, your everything. And so you've done all your research. So all you have to think about. About now is the beauty of thermaling and doing the distance, uh, if that's what you want to do. Um, and so, yeah, no, all your kit and do your research. And then the third one is, uh, but I would say, I would say more, cause I'm quite a playful person.
I I'm not, unless I'm mucking around or playing with mates, uh, I'm not very stimulated, so I could get to Hill and float around and so start getting bored after 40 minutes. But if someone said, I bet you can't get to that Hill over there, then that's it game on I'm off. Uh, cause there's a challenge there. Uh, and it's a bit of Kufa with your friends. So I think, yeah, again, yeah. Play don't like that.
Jockey. I posted a thing, uh, when we scheduled this, uh, yesterday on Facebook, uh, just, uh, if anybody had any questions for you and a few people replied that I wanted to, to run by you that these are, you know, quick questions, but they don't have to be answered. Quick. You could take as long as you want, um, reserves, uh, should people be flying with two reserves when they're flying XC?
Uh, I don't think, no, I don't think they should, uh, they don't have to, uh, the one is good enough. Um, I think if you manage the main, then, um, you can use that as a reserve anyway, there's quite often situations where the reserve actually thrown relatively low, uh, by the time you get it out or whatever situation. You you're in, um, and so I don't think you need to fly with two. Uh, I think what I would say is you've got to, you've got to de-power your main, uh, but if you do need another, you know, if you thought that you wanted, you wanted to, whichever reason you want to, but one you can use, you just go fingers in the back, the CD lines, pull them straight down and you've got another parachute.
Um, um, the likelihood of you ever going into a wing, uh, and then having to swim out of it and throw another one is very, um, rare. Um, so there's not many scenarios where you would need to, and I've thrown a reserve a couple of times, um, and it didn't work because I threw it badly and it went into the lines. And so people think, oh, no, I need a second one for that. You don't, all you have to do is pull it. Uh, and it will open, uh, you can put it right into your lap and re-throw it, but it will open, uh, and it will work. So I don't think for cross country flying, I don't think you need two.
Yep. Perfect. Uh, Igor asks, how stressful is your job and how do you deal with the dark side of paragliding?
Um, uh, that's a great question. The, the stressful times, uh, um, they keep you so on your game. And it is, it's, I mean, I have to go through from, if it's the, the, the, perhaps the most stressful is when I'm not in control of the, the guy that, that is doing a cross country and, uh, you know, he's putting himself in a position where he's exposing to risk or something like that. And that's quite stressful for us because we try, it's our job to, to protect them. And, uh, that's when it becomes stressful, uh, or you lose communication for whatever reason. That's when it's stressful. In a SIV, um, environment, when the stress, when you have to really start thinking, um, then your heart rate's going as, as well.
And so you're thinking a lot faster. And so it's going into your eyes from your brain, out your mouth and into their brain and down to their hands. And so it's all happening quite fast, but for both. So it's, um, yeah, and you can deal with it. And there's always, um, you know, you can always default to throwing a reserve if necessary, but you know, one, you want to prove to the pilot that they can, they can, they got the glider out. Um, but it's, that's the stressful times you deal with. You deal with it by one learning from it. So straight away, you're never going to know if something happened that's really stressful. You think what, what created that stressful environment? Um, so you learn from it and laugh from it.
You know, if, uh, if you, if you can, um, but I think dealing with the dark side, that is a tough, that is a tough question. Uh, I think what you do is you just focus on the good. You learn, you learn from the bad, but you focus on the good. And I think we have that in us. You know, if you're an adventure sports people, we're exposed to it all the time. And sadly we see friends not come through it, but, um, you know, what you have to do is think they loved it. I love it, you know, and, uh, where else would I be? And, uh, and that's what you say to yourself and you think I wouldn't be anywhere else. So crack on and, uh, share it with the people.
This, this isn't one of the questions that was asked. I just have to ask that after your response. Are you, where are you in your own passion for the sport? Are you, do you spend a lot of time outside of coaching, just flying yourself? Are you, are you still pretty fired up about, about pair letting after all these years?
Yeah, I love it. And it's, uh, I mean, now I've got Josh that I fly with as well. So that's great. And so, you know, I, I've now got, I fly through his eyes as well. And that's the thing about guides, um, is we have to fly for everybody else. So we are standard sort of, although we can do it ourselves, our standards and goals also go to the level that we're guiding. And so we get huge rewards from flying 50. Uh, but you know, we land at 50 days or with someone who's never done it and they're absolutely stoked. And that's just the same as me flying 200. You know, I get the same buzz out of it and it's the same, that parallel you take all the way through your flying.
So I would, if I was to keep wanting more and more and more than I would have given up years ago, it's the, the key is to just enjoy what you do. And even if it's a top to bottom, um, You'd have to, um, the things that you do, the best you can do, the most important thing that you can do, the best you can do, the most important thing. You have to make something good out of it. And yeah, I, I tried to do all the big, big distance with all the boys last year. Um, I just couldn't do it. I was too busy. I was just, you know, you have to really, really, uh, devote a lot of time. To do a good X season, looking at the weather, dropping everything and going out and doing it. it and that's something i mean i take my hat off to them because you know i i just i suppose i'd love to do it but i just don't have that hunger if i turned and i got that hunger then i'd have to be dropping a lot of stuff but i i take my hat off to the guys who do it i think it's fantastic
i don't you know how mike cam could just does it is just astounding i mean it's great it's great you know listening to your stories and following you and the guys doing you know see all the all the guys do these mega flights not just X-Alps but you know you see it on facebook and you know the joy that people have when they they've landed and they're sharing it instantaneously and
you're looking
at thinking that's phenomenal how do they do that you know and it's just it's huge amount of energy that comes from you know we're behind anybody that does good things whether it's their first hour flight or first 100k or or you know the whole of the X-Alps done in a couple of days it doesn't matter as long as they're sharing it and having a great time and people are learning from it then
yeah absolutely that's what it's all about jockey uh one of the questions i got i really like this one what kind of pilot in your SIV courses are i guess in your in your xc courses as well are you least worried about and are you most worried about um
okay the least is pilots that have come from another field where they have a natural skill so it whether it be a climber that's got the same philosophy or another uh a pilot from a different discipline you know you you know that there are certain people that have got it that can take information on um and act on it and so you get a quite natural pilot um and whether they they they've done a lot of hours airtime or not that they they've got it um because they take they've got the right approach to it um and then you've got the people that don't that have got they're they're doing it you know their sense of you know what actually is going on uh and what is actually really going on are two very different things and when you get pilots that and they aren't prepared to learn uh they're the ones that will have a sticky time so so you it's those ones that you're most wary of but the the and you know it's not just young pilots that are very good and easy to teach um but they're generally generally it's the younger generation uh uh much quicker and easier to teach than than the older ones and i think it's when it's when people uh are trying to to be something that they're not and i choose those words very carefully because i i want everyone to enjoy flying but uh you know
they're going to be doing it in a way that they're comfortable with uh and so you know it's great that people you know want to do uh maneuvers and get stuck into it but you don't have to and uh some people sort of get put themselves into positions where they know i should be doing this when if you don't enjoy it don't do it and that's the key you know we get a lot of pilots that uh who was it it was hugh miller you know he'd brilliant xc flying um great great pilot and never wanted to do an sv course ever and then he did one and um with fabian and he had a absolutely he thought it was fantastic that brilliant but all that time before that he felt i don't i don't want to i don't think i have to and you don't and as long as you don't push it then uh you'll be all right i suppose but you'll really benefit once you do do it you'll really benefit from it um but it's all a question of you you can often teach people that
um either don't want to be there or their hands and arms aren't doing quite what they should be because it's the same as a person that you see taking off and their bodies are going forwards but their feet are doing little steps because they're trying to say what you're doing
it's like taking a passenger tandem and they don't want to go and you
go right over their shoulders
you know they can and that's when you think oh no and that's when we gently go back or we we set smaller tasks that they can achieve bite-sized tasks they can achieve and they you know they progress in a different pace but i mean you say you also get these guys coming on a subject course they hoon through it they think this is fantastic can i try sat let's me do this and i'll start from the spin and this is brilliant and then you get out of the pilot's thing
what is the most
important maneuver to have nailed like when you when you leave one of your courses what do you want what's the one that you you think oh i'm really glad they've got that one and is that the same one that people should continue to practice it's
wing overs um that is the one that they should they they they will never always nail the wing overs in one course you know it's very hard because it's there's a lot of things i've got to do um but when you get wing overs that's the thing you can really apply to thermaling and switching in cores and getting up from you know low down uh or getting up from you know in a cliff face with trees and have that confidence to throw the glider around knowing you've got it don't worry about it uh that's the thing that is people should take away in practice um and yes they should do that but they should understand what it feels like to start to spin so they know what it feels like um and back off and use that dive to their advantage you know that you're trying to get into a thermal and it starts to spin you just ease off gently it dives and wham you're in the core so it's it's using things um like that to your advantage and getting stuck in and that's what sid does for you gives you that confidence to just oh there it is yeah use that i'll have some of that dive and whoop i'm in um
and i think what they should take away is is practice the need to practice because you can't just turn up tick the boxes and go away it should say to you bloody hell there's so much more to this glider that i need to learn and i'm going to go away and practice so you know wing overs not big ones just smooth ones and symmetric ones um and just throwing the glider around with perfect happiness is
the key yeah and and really good wing overs are not easy you know they take a lot of time to get good they're not yeah yeah
oh big one oh no
i'm over my wing what do i do now
jockey i've just got a couple more here and then we'll wrap it up i really appreciate that what what what has changed um we talked about this a little bit in the beginning but um what are you teaching differently with the advent of shark nose uh that with with modern wings what what's changed in your world uh you talked about um the prevalence of you know that it's that's easier maybe to get into a locked in spiral if you're on a hotter b these days than than it was before but take me through a little bit how have you adjusted things in the last five years in your teaching um
it's it's more about the piloting really uh is getting the deflations we can still achieve deflations um and getting the understanding of the deflation and the deflation and the understanding of the change in weight accelerating into the turns um but it's more about using the energy and the power to pull it out uh in a nice progressive smooth fluid way um and being comfortable with a dynamic situation which you diffuse and that's the key that's what we're we're working on whether glider the glider is different um and some can be quite dynamic and require quite fast input but you have to be quick to react and then back off and i think teaching that is is very important especially these days um you know with high aspect ratio wings with the power of the deflations especially in uh speed bar deflation where the glider very quickly goes behind um that's when you have to be quick to break to stop it going too far back uh to
which would allow it to to start to cravat and the tips to come forwards so quick on the brakes then back off the brakes and break the dive you know it's all about that speed but don't confuse speed with aggression uh have that sensitivity uh and it's it's more of that really that we try to focus on you know it's not binary it isn't do that deflation you have to do this you have to adapt and we all have to look at the glider and whoa that that didn't work the time you know and you can say to one pilot okay really pull it and uh they don't and you go go on really pull it and suddenly they do and it whoa it goes to a very dynamic deflation um and they've got to be able to cope with that so it's all about the briefing and making sure they're comfortable with the dynamic situation um but new gliders new trends yeah it's it's again it's talking to pilots talking to development teams
seeing what works and seeing yourself you know to getting it there's nothing nice than getting in the glider and playing with it yourself uh or one of us you know going up there and having a look at it and thinking whoa that's different and quite often you can you know if i see a pattern where something's not you know what i'm saying isn't quite working you'd go up fly a glider do the maneuver and talk through it as you're doing it just like i used to do testing and then you think oh shit i'm saying the wrong thing you know it should be more of this or less of that and so by doing it you actually understand more about what you need to teach so you can't you know no no instructor can rest on their laurels and just sit back they've got to be current and follow development and trends and what's going on huh do you do you prefer teaching SIV or xc
more ah
i like change so i'd hate to if i did SIV or xc i'd hate to do SIV or xc i'd hate to do SIV or xc all year i'd give up but what i do is i love change so to be doing SIV you know i'm starting to get bored of it and then oh i'm going cross country next week that's fantastic and then you give that 100 and as soon as you start to think you know what i'm done on flying in circles and straight lines i you know i really want to throw the glider on or or you know watch people as they learn how to throw the glider around um and then you sort of change so just as you're just starting to think counting the days now you'll then change you go back to your family have a lovely time and then you think great i've got something new to do so that's change is as good as a rest so you have to change it so you can be you know full on X-Alps and then suddenly go and cruise for a few evening soaring flights and coastal flying with a bit of acro sure sure and then you know a bit of a change doesn't have to always be full on so that's how you yeah no exactly and yeah that's why i like i that's why i never want to do only one i i love a change cool
jockey tell me a story like from your uh your comp days tell me tell me tell me one that you you don't often get to tell in your courses oh
my lord that story that you've got that's a well you
know one of the feedbacks i've been getting you know when i when i talk to guys that have been around for a long time and then i'll hear from nate or matt you know the guys that have local around oh you should have asked them about that time where they got sucked into a cloud and you know because but i don't have the history i don't know it so i i i i want i want to have give you the opportunity to tell something funny something that happened to you
we're just good or tense or i like i tell you what i love is um is talking of funny we used to i remember being a cast on the sauce and that was a world's i can't remember when it i can't remember um and it was such good banter and i hope it is i'm sure it is still the same but you know we'd always get drunk in the evening and and it'd be out there so slightly hung over but you're sharing the time and you're you're doing the the course and the task and the great thing that really made me think wow this is this is just such good fun was being in a in a gaggle and i it was chris muller uh fantastic fantastic pilot brilliant spirit and he would which is to we're telling a joke um and in a thermal and there's a whole gaggle of pilots it was that it was the first 30k so there's still loads of people there and in this gaggle you know shouting the joke down right down through the column um and passing up and you can hear the pilots or what was it you know the job is a what what does it mean what's that and you know going all out the column and but we didn't have a chance to finish the joke because we just got to base so everyone
get we get up to base and we we all go on a glide all serious go on a glide you know just staring each other out your sunglasses and then you get to the thing and and you we arrived so we started telling the joke and we could hear shouts from down below go wait wait wait i'm not close wait wait wait wait you have to wait till everyone gets in the film okay go what's the joke finish it off it's and that sort of banter i think that typifies competition flying so you know you might be competing with each other around the world but you still want to share a good i love it i love it that that is a
perfect place to wrap this up jockey thank you thank you so much thank you so much i really appreciate it i hope i get to do uh more flying with you here in the future we're going to see you and uh we're going to be seeing you this sounds like this june and july back in europe with um one of my you know with ben my trainer for the xl yeah so that'll be a blast so we'll see you soon i
look forward to seeing you sounds good and following your program thanks a lot just give it a shot
we'll do appreciate it take care dude cheers jockey i
hope you enjoyed that that was pretty cool i was taking notes going through the edit on that one the last few hours putting this all together and i've got pages of notes so i'll write that up in the show notes on the website you can review that um as i said in the top of the show head into alaska soon so we won't have too many more of these for you in the next few weeks but hope to get one out Bruce Goldsmith and another before i take off uh if you got any questions for me about alaska or anything else shoot me an email i hope you enjoyed the last one the in between cast where i answer your questions as always thank you so much for your generous donations i really appreciate that um to be talking to nick greece at the cloudbase foundation and find out how we can route some of that money their way as well as they're doing such great work
so much appreciate it see you on the next show fly safe fly far have fun cheers