Welcome to the CloudBase Mayhem Podcast. This is episode 16. I am your host, Gavin McClurg. We are changing the format up here a little bit. I used to be putting these little trailers of things to come, little previews in the beginning. People found that really confusing, so we're just wiping that out and we're going to get right to it. My guest on the show this week is Cody Mittanck. I've been down with him the last couple of weeks in Virgin, Utah. We've been out towing over the desert and practicing acro. Cody is one of the few pilots in North America, if you can even say a few pilots, who is doing the infinity and everything else. He's learned it very fast. He's also sending it really big in cross country. I've had this theme lately, actually, of some acro pilots who are also really keen on cross country and cross.
Cody is right up there making waves with the best of them. He's only been flying since 2009, but I cannot believe how much progression this guy's had. He set the Canadian foot launch record unofficial for a very good reason. We'll hear about that in this show. Last summer at the Willie, he won the Utah Cup last year. He had, I think, over 10 flights, over 150 miles. He has really come on strong and he is super serious about this game. He just returned from Mexico. He's been in Columbia down there at the Superfinal and the Columbia Open. So we hear a lot about what he's learning at these comps and progression and risk and risk management and reserve throws, how to stay safe.
We get into it all. A lot about training. I think you're really going to enjoy this. Cody is super passionate about this sport and it really comes through. Before we get into it, I just want to put out there again that I am planning on doing this kind of in-between. I'm kind of basically taking any of your questions. If you have questions about the X-Alps or sponsorship or training or the big flight I did here a couple years ago, the film projects, the Rockies Traverse with Will Gadd, I can now actually officially announce that we've got another Red Bull project coming up, a full Traverse of the Alaskan Range. This is something I've been planning and dreaming since 2012. I've scouted it up there, I think, now three times. So that just...
Just got signed off on this week. I am super excited about it. We'll be talking about that in the future. So, you know, the other day I got a question about, hey man, what do you do if you get blown over the back? You know, how do you handle that situation? So if you have any questions along any of those lines or what have you, if it's regarding flying or even life, I'll take my best stab at answering it. Just hit me up via thecloudbasemayhem.com or Facebook or Twitter, even on Instagram, I guess. I'm on all those platforms. You can find me on all of those. Finally, thank you, as always, so much for your generous donations. They go a long way to making this viable. I've just bought and I've actually just got, with this one, a whole bunch of new stuff in from Amazon, a bunch of new audio gear. So hopefully you'll be able to tell the difference in the sound here in these future episodes.
Yeah, thank you. Appreciate it. It's been a lot of fun. Hope you're getting a lot out of it. And without further ado, here is my conversation with Cody Mittanck.
Hi, Cody.
Hey. How are you doing?
Good, man. Set the stage for us here a little bit. Where are we and what are we doing?
We're in Virgin, Utah. Great, great name, by the way. Yeah, exactly. Don't know why it's called that, but southern Utah near St. George. And we're out here doing some macro trading. Cool. Yeah.
Usually, so usually I like to ask the guests on the show, like, how they got into paragliding and what was the impetus and who they learned from. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty much good stuff to say. And I think the audience is going to learn a lot from your stories. By pretty much every benchmark, you have had this insanely meteoric rise. And I want to get into how you've done that. And maybe the lead in from that is you set the Canadian foot launch unofficial record. Tell me why it's unofficial. Yeah. Tell me about that flight.
It's definitely unofficial. Yeah. It's not going to be on any books. For multiple reasons.
Let's hear about those.
Yeah. That's a great story. So I went out to the Willie Challenge this last year, which I would recommend to anybody to go fly that. It's well organized. It's a beautiful place to fly. It's up in Golden, B.C. And you know that area. Yeah. You flew through there on the Rockies Traverse. Yeah, it is awesome. So basically launching Golden, it's about nine days. And you take your best three days. So
it's like an open distance. Open distance. And
it's scored on X contest. Exactly. Yeah. So it's really easy. You know the parameters. But like I said, well organized, really well put together. Great place to stay, too, at the LZ there. So we had kind of bad weather in the beginning. And then the last three days shaped up for us. And so you had to get those three days had to be big back to back. So the first day I was able to, the first real day that we had good weather, I was able to fly south. Down the range, we had winds that were kind of from the northwest. So it wasn't out and backs. You can score multiples on those, you know, but we decided it wasn't wasn't worth trying to come back. We actually had a good friend of mine there that was figuring out all the math. He's sort of a physics whiz and figured out all the math for me.
And we decided, decided that it wasn't worth turning around and actually coming back. It was it was scoring better if we could just send it on, just send it. Yeah. Yeah. So. So that was the point. My plan was just to send it. And so the first day I was able to to fly and land nearly in the same field that Chris Mueller landed in. And when he set the record from that from that site.
Wow. Down by Cranbrook.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So down in that area. Yeah. And that first day that I found that the crux was if you fall in the area, you know, there's a crux right there at Canal Flats. And where the range sort of. Cuts back. And. Big ol' Venturi. A big Venturi. Yeah. And I didn't know the area. I'd never been there. So I got to the end near Canal Flats and decided to cut back and stay in the terrain. It seemed, you know, like it was a better bet. So I. And I was on the Enzo too. So I knew I had some speed to deal with, you know, some winds too. So I cut back.
Will was flying there as well. And we kind of flew together. This
is a
Will Gadd. Will Gadd. Yeah. We flew together for a few of those days. And I think that day, I don't think he was with me that day, but anyway, I cut back, ended up getting a lot of wind like I expected, but the terrain was working great. So I was able to stay over the terrain and just push into the wind, you know, catch thermals back, pushing in the wind. Finally got through that little horseshoe there in the range. And I knew that as soon as I got around the corner and more on the west facing slopes that it was going to be a ridge run. So I knew I had something to look forward to and just keep pushing hard. You know? So I finally pushed through that area and got onto the west facing slopes. Will landed. You
didn't make it out of there?
Will? Yeah. On one of those days, Will came back and he was on a GTO-2 and it turned out that, and we went into the same, the same bowl, you know, back there and there was too much wind. I came into the bowl and immediately recognized the wind and then started pushing into it and getting nice embedded thermals. Will came into the same bowl and felt the strong wind on the GTO-2 and it just was not fast enough to hang in there. So it was key to be on the ENZO-2 actually. It's deep and there's a lot of trees and it's a really bad place to throw a reserve or to get stuck. Low
angle too in there.
Yeah. But it's, it's, it's great to have a fast wing though too, you know? So anyway, so I was able to push through that and then hooked up to the west slopes and it was a ridge run from there. It was amazing. It was the most incredible.
What distance are we talking at that point?
So, so at that point, Canal Flats is like one. I want to say 140, around 140 K.
Yeah. Okay.
Um, um, so at 140, the, let's see, I pushed past Canal Flats by 637 in the evening. I'd launched it around 1230. So I wasn't flying really fast by any means, you know? Yeah. Base wasn't high. It was really close to the terrain a lot of the flight. Um, so I, once I got through that though and got into the ridge run, I, I didn't turn until I landed at like 240 K, you know? Wow. 246. I think it was. Another 100
K just straight.
Yeah. Without turning. Numbers. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Incredible. It was insane. I mean, the, the, the winds were coming into the face and it was basically just picking the right speed to where you were able to maintain your height, um, and, and, and just, you know, fly right over the main ridge. And uh. And
did you get kind of a glass off? And then the glass off
was also, you know. Cause it's all west facing. Yeah. And then it's, it's Canada too. You're so far north. Um, and that's such a beautiful valley that glass is off. You know, amazingly. So, um, and the sun, you know, as it's coming down at this low angle, I think it extends a glass off by hours. Wow. Um, so I got this great glass off and great ridge lift, um, and was able to, to land almost in the same field, I think, um, that, that Chris landed in, which was really pretty amazing. Cool. Yeah. Yeah. And then, so the next day, um, turned around and I'd already flown that section. So I kind of knew what it was all about. We had very similar conditions and I was able to push through it a little bit quicker. Maybe only a half an hour, 45 minutes, um, quicker. And right at the two 40 mark, um, there's another crux, um, where the range sort of drops away and you've got a, a, a Canyon that's really venturing and sucking.
So. That was the one I think took, it took Will and I like four days to get through there. That was brutal.
Yeah. And so I, I showed up there, um, about 15 minutes after the sun had set, um, and, and I, but the, the winds were still coming into the range. So it was like what?
9 or 10? 9 PM. So this point.
Yeah. Yeah. So the sun was setting at, um, at about 9 15 or so. Um, and so this was, this was around 9 15, 9 30 and, um, and so, but I'm still getting this great Ridge lift and glass off conditions. And so I, I got to that point and I, um, had to get around that Canyon. So I pushed out into the wind, um, and was able to ride a little Ridge of terrain out in the, in the Valley. And then I had a decision to make to, you know, at this point I can barely see. Um, and, uh, I had a decision to make to then cut once I got around the Canyon to cut back to the range because I knew it would still be working. The winds were perfect. Yeah. Um, and, but I had to cross over the, the river is this braided river and there's trees everywhere.
Yeah. Um, but I, I banked on the winds, you know, working in the slope working. So I got in there low, I got back to the range low and, but like clockwork man, I just boom, got up again. And at that point it was, it was dark and, uh, but I'm in beautiful Ridge lift and it's smooth and it's, and the moon is out. It's a full moon. It's like, everything's just coming together for me perfectly, you know? So, so I, I just kept going. I just, and I was hammering bar because I didn't want to go up too high and I didn't want to get close, you know, too, too close to the terrain,
which I
couldn't see. I couldn't see very well. Um, I flipped my, my UD over because the screen was too bright. It was blinding me. So I flipped that over and I'm just, and at that point it was, it was beautiful because the road now parallels the range so I can see the road, I can see fields that are reflecting the moonlight. I can see what fields are, you know, have, have power lines and fences. I could see that. Okay. It was reflecting, you know, the moonlight pretty well. Um, and so I just, I just kept going, um, until I knew I was right near the border. Um, and, uh, and then at that point the road sort of peels away from the range and, and, uh, um, I was like, okay, this is ridiculous. I have to land. I'm not going to just keep going. Even though I probably could have, it was insane. Wow. It was insane. It's 1045 at this point.
Oh my God. Yeah. So
I, I just picked a field that I could tell didn't have power lines and, um, spiraled down. So you've been in
the air about 10 hours.
Yeah. Close to 10 hours. Yeah. Yeah. Spiraled down and landed, um, right near the border. And, um. This
is a public forum. Don't get yourself in trouble.
Aren't you
on the
U.S. side? Right, right near the border. Like I said, right near the border. Yeah. And, uh, and then amazingly like got a, like the, my retrieve, um, she was great. She came and picked me up, um, and, and, and we drove back, you know, five hours to get back and turn around and do it the next day. I did another a hundred and, um, I went to canal flats, um, nearly the next day for a total of like 700 K for three days. So that is awesome when it's awesome. So
last year, um, 2015, you had, I think. I think 10 flights over 150 miles, four flights over 170, um, and yet we're down here and you're also like pulling the infinite and you're one of a handful. Is there even a handful of pilots in the U.S. um, doing it? So I'm not trying to embarrass you with the embellishments, but, um, how, how have you managed to, is it just passion? How have you managed to go from, when did you start flying?
So I'm on my seventh year now.
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So I started in 2009. Um. That's pretty stratospheric. Yeah. I mean, you're, so you're sending these huge flight, you won the Utah cup last year. You did this Canada record, unofficial record, cause you landed close to the border at night. And after, after, yeah, land by
time in the dark.
Um, I, I, we've had this theme, the last few guests have been, have been acro pilots that are also really good at, at XC. Um, is there a real definite line there? Do you, do you see?
No, that's what's interesting. I think they blend into each other, you know, perfectly. And, and, um, you know, I, I fly, I fly a lot of acro, as much acro as, as XC, you know, and I'm passionate. I think about both. I get really excited about both. Um, but.
What was the trigger for the acro?
Um, my first sat, I guess, you know, with, uh, Chris Santacroce, he towed me up and, um, told me how to do this sat. And I did the sat and landed. And then I remember just screaming. I was screaming obscenities, you know, because I was so stoked, you know, and, and, uh, and he had students there and, and he was like, all right, dude, keep it down, take it easy. Don't, don't, you know, he didn't want everybody else to get excited and go pull a sat too, you know, but it was, uh, it was something about the feeling, you know, of, you know, doing that, that just got me hooked on that, you know, it was, it was amazing. And then, and then I realized too, you know, I guess early on, I realized that it was when I was flying XC. I was. I was literally hitting like that rogue thermal or hitting some bad piece of air, getting bucked out of a thermal and, and, um, even on days that, that I didn't expect it to be rowdy.
Um, and, uh, I realized like the only way to do this safely is to be completely confident and to, to have those, to like, you know, basically to have that experience as much as possible to get used to it, you know? Yeah. So, so
it was kind of born out of the sensation and the, you know, just totally awesome, but it was also like, holy shit. I think I need it. I need, I need some training here too. You're flying the Wasatch. I find some of these are rowdy places to fly. So it was, you were kind of, you were making the connection even then, like I need, I need this training. So how did, how did you approach your, um, both? How did you approach your XC training and your acro training? And those are totally separate questions. Well,
so the acro, um, I, I started right around the same time that I started, um, flying.
Okay. You know?
So it was only about a year later, um, I started towing with Chris, um, and I was like just hitting him up all the time, constantly, incessantly. He got so sick of me. Well, I helped him out a little bit here and there and, and, um, and he, you know, he was grateful for that and, and, but I, I, he, I owe him, you know, um, for doing that for me, you know, cause I would call him up and try to just squeeze in, you know, before other students, you know, cause I just wanted to get as much airtime as I possibly could, you know? And there's just, it's, it's, that's the thing about over the
water, you were doing. Okay. Yeah.
Yeah. And that's the thing about acro towing is our acro training is, is that it's, it's so difficult to find, um, time to train and to have access to training. And that, in my opinion is why most people don't do it. You know, it's, it's just logistically so difficult and expensive, you know? But so I, I, I called him up as much as I could and got in and, and, um, and was able to get like 12 toes over a summer, you know, which I thought was a lot. And
what were, what was like the, what was the end of the, what were those last toes looking like? What maneuvers were you doing?
So, so yeah, I'm, I started with the basic SIV maneuvers, um, and, and then, um, uh, after about three toes of the basic stuff, which was the full stall. So, so, uh, basically I think after, you know, reading as much as I could and watching a lot of videos, I realized I needed to get the acro full stall down and I needed to get the deep stall down, which is just fundamental for acro. Um, and so, so with him, you know, I, I went over the lake and I, I got some, the acro full stall down, um, or at least, you know, did it a few times through my reserve, um, a couple of times with him, which was great getting that out of the way. Um, and then, um, and then what I did after those toes was go straight to, uh, to Turkey, to Lou Denise, um, bought a freestyle wing and then, uh, went out there for five weeks, um, and just did deep stalls from.
Okay. You know, from the top all the way down every day, every run, the people I was with were like, this is, this is so boring watching you fly, dude. All you do is deep stalls the whole way down, deep stall, and then you try some helis and deep stall and you try some helis and, and that's what you've been doing for five weeks. You, you had a coach. No, no, I just went on my own. You just did it all on
your own. Yeah,
and it's, it's a, there's a group there usually, you know, you'll run into people and, um, a lot of great acro pilots and, and I was, you know, they're, most of them are really, you know, easy to talk to and I would just ask them, you know, pointers here and there and everybody's got, especially for, for doing a heli, everything is, you know, everybody's got their own way of doing it or their own way of explaining it and so you have to kind of, you know, um, figure out your way, um, of learning, but, um, yeah, yeah, you, you learn from people there. On
the last show, I, I talked to, uh, Ander Pershaska, um, and he just set the Esfera world record down in Mexico, a really accomplished acro pilot. And I want to kind of dispel the myth of the danger of, of acro. He, he insisted that acro is not nearly as dangerous. It's not even in the same really genre as cross country. Would you agree with that?
Uh, yeah. I mean, if you look at, if you look at the acro competitions, um, people don't get hurt.
Yeah. You
know, I mean, they're mostly over water, um, but you just don't see people getting hurt. And I think it's because as a, those guys, once you get to a certain level, um, you know, they've, they've had their wing in every possible configuration above and below them, you know? So there's nothing they haven't seen before, you know, so that you've got that. Um, and so, but, but, you know, like there is a dangerous, there's definitely a dangerous phase to acro. Yeah. Um, for sure. You know? Um, so, so, but once you, yeah, the one you're in. Yeah. It's, and it's, it's, I think there's a way to get through it safely, but there's always going to be a certain level of risk. And I think maybe the way to get through it safely is to recognize what kind of person you are and how you handle risk or how you, how you cope with that, the feeling of fear, you know, whether you're the person that freezes up or whether you're the person that when you get hit with that adrenaline, you know, you react quicker, you know, and, um, make better decisions.
So
how do we, we were talking about this yesterday. How do, how do, how do people react? How do people identify that? And then how do they, how do they become pilots that are safe if they know they don't have that in them? Because I think, you know, when I've gone to SIVs in the past, it's hysterical on the last day when you get to the full stall day, cause no one can speak. Everybody's just up until that point, it's been talks about what's happened and their spins and their spirals and they're all excited. And then full stall gate comes and it's like a morgue. I mean, everybody, it's like a funeral. Nobody can talk. Everybody's terrified. Um, you know, Andra said on the last show that, you know, he'd done like 50 stalls and his kind of mentor was like, you're, you're, you can't even talk to me until you've done 300. Like you have to do that many. And he thought, God, isn't that overkill?
I feel really comfortable that I've done 50 stalls. I feel really comfortable doing these. And he's like, no, you're just getting started.
Yeah. And that's the key. And I'm sure he was pretty freaked out on his first ones too. I, you know, I would, you know, anybody would be lying if they said they weren't, you know, like I remember my first full stalls over the water and I was freaked out. I couldn't sleep the night before, you know? Thinking about it all the time. And, and I think I was pretty prepared, watched a lot of videos and I knew exactly what I needed to do, but it freaks you out, you know, it, it, but it's, it's amazing how fast you adapt, you know, to, to that. And all of a sudden you're not freaked out anymore. And now you're starting to understand it and the movement of the wing and what inputs it needs to have. And, um, and then, you know, you take that slowly step by step. And then before you know it, you're, you're doing, you know, the infinite or something, you know, after. After a lot of training, you know, I mean, after 300 full stalls, then you maybe move on to, you know, the deep stalls.
And after 300 of those, you move on to a misty flip, you know? And then after, you know, it's, it's. How do people, how do people kind
of get over this initial, um, real trepidation about doing it? Because if I've learned anything in the last two weeks training with you is that I have done some really crazy, stupid shit flying cross country wing, gotten, gotten myself into some really bad situations. That I've been able to get out of because I had this concept that I had really good control of my wing and I, and I knew how to stall. I mean, I've done doing stalls a long time, but had I known what I know now, I think I could have gotten out of those situations. I maybe never, never even would have gotten in those situations. So how do we, how do we kind of, how do, how do people take that first step? How do they get on the, out on the end of the dock?
The first thing is probably trusting your gear. You've got some great stories about that. That's for another show. Okay. Leave that for another show. Uh, but no, really though, I mean, trusting your gear and knowing that it's solid. And I think I came from a climbing background, you know, all through my twenties, I climbed, I climbed big walls and, and I was comfortable with exposure and hanging from ropes. And then I get in a paraglider, I'm like, okay, these are smaller lines, but I think I can trust this thing. And you develop a trust, um, with your gear first. Yeah. You develop, you develop this trust with your gear and you, you find a way to not think about all of the, the, those worst case scenarios are all of those, those things that could potentially happen, but have such a small likelihood of happening.
Like your gear failing or, you know, you, you only think about the things you need to be thinking about. Yeah. So
trusting the gear. And then it seems like the next one would be trusting yourself and trusting yourself. Yeah. Understanding
yourself and understanding it. Like we were saying, if you're that kind of person that freezes up. And if you are, and you know that about yourself, then you need to probably be out over the water, um, with a good coach and, um, and just do it slowly, take it, you know, step by step and just do it slowly because most people probably do an SIV a year, you know, and they do, they do that full stall that freaks them out every time. And they never quite get comfortable with it. Um, if, if it's possible, like if you have access to, to that towing over water, then get out as much as you can. And initially, you know, work through that fear and it'll go away, you know, it'll go away eventually. Yeah.
They become like, it almost becomes easier than launching or landing. I still get a little bit more scared doing that than I do doing stalls. Yeah.
But I, and I, I believe like you can control any situation in a wing, you know, and that's the coolest thing about paragliders is that they're, they're maybe the only aircraft that I can think of that actually, um, can be in, uh, you know, a non-flying configuration. They'll be in control. It's the only thing that can collapse over your head, completely collapse. You know, it's no longer an airfoil, it's a bed sheet, you know, um, and you can be in complete control. It's amazing. You know, you can be flying the thing backwards, you know, you can, you know, stop it in deep stall. You can spin it in a heli, you know, it's amazing. And you can do that with like precise control. Um, and so, yeah, it's, it's an incredible thing. Do
you think that that all this training you've done, uh, in acro and all these things, you're doing these maneuvers and stalls and everything, do you think that's been a direct correlation in you being able to fly far?
Um, yeah, yeah. At least as far as being able to, you know, having the confidence, you know, when you're, when you're on, you know, full bar and you're flying through turbulent air. I know that if, if I'm, you know, in that situation and I have the height, then I can recover anything. Um, and I know that I'm not going to get out of control and go into my wing. Um, I know that. Like. Um, because I've been in those situations so many times where the wing just completely goes to shit, you know, um, and I'll recover it. Um, and after doing that hundreds of times, like I'm confident that I can get that done. Cause to me, it seems
like, um, you know, the people who really send it far, there's that there's always a time in the flight where it's going to be bad. It's good. You're going to have some ugly times in any big flight. It seems to me like, uh, bill Belcourt's concept concept of bringing it. And you're like being really confident is what that acro, would you say that's what that acro gives you?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It keeps you aggressive, you know, when conditions are really strong, you know, you're, you're kind of, you're, you're having more fun. That's for sure. You know, like that fear is not there. And I remember early on when the fear was there, you know, when I was flying XC and I, you know, I'd get those ass clenching moments every now and then, you know, and I would just be like, oh my God, I kind of want to be on the ground right now. You know, like, this is not fun. This just, I feel out of my element, you know, like are human beings supposed to be doing this?
Right. Right. Right.
But I don't get that anymore. Now I just, now it's, it's, everything is incredible, you know, like it doesn't matter how strong it gets. Everything's great. Um, with the caveat that when you get close to the ground, you know, that you need some height to recover something if it goes wrong, you know, and that's another thing too, is, is, is knowing, you know, like how much height it takes you to recover. Yeah. You know, like we're out here training and we know, like we have two reserves and we know that we can, we need the second reserve potentially. So we always, you know, make sure we keep that buffer, you know, so
let's talk about the accidents. I hate talking about accidents, but I think they're instructive because I learned quite a bit from you in the Sierra is just because you were, we, you and I were right over Jason when he went in. I didn't, I don't think either one of us saw Eric's, um, but it sounded pretty similar low, you know, bad cascade. Went in hard, didn't throw, um, I have a whole new respect for reserves after our last two weeks, uh, you know, until two weeks ago and training with you, I'd, I'd never thrown my reserve and I was quite proud of that, you know, and now I realize that was really stupid because it's, it's not like, uh, you have to understand how long it takes, how much room you need. And like you said, what's recoverable and what's unrecoverable, um,
I'll just put you on the spot here. Do you think that those guys would have had those accidents if they had, they had acro training?
Uh, I think they would have thrown the reserve. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Instantly. Instantly. Yeah. Yeah. And I'd like to think that I would do that too. Comps are tricky that way. If you really, if you really, um, you know, you want to try to do everything to recover the wing because you don't want to throw the reserve and take a zero for the day. Yeah. You know? Um, so, but you know, that, I, I would like to think that wouldn't be even be on my mind, you know? Like I know, I know I've thrown enough that I know when to throw, um, and, and I know, like you said, like what needs to, you know, what's recoverable and what's not, um, Jason's was really low. That's the trick. That's, that's the problem is that in the Sierras, that was the, that range is so shallow, you know, and we're flying, it's, it's high pressure and we're flying deep into the range and we have to sort of step up as we go deeper, you know, cause the base is coming up as we get up over the higher ridge.
And, um, it just makes for a really bad scenario where, where if you don't get a climb deep, you have to push out further. But as you're pushing out, the terrain is coming up on you really quickly. And that's what happened to Jason is we were pushing out of the higher terrain. Yeah. He was
making the right move. And
we were making the right move. I was, I was a little bit higher, um, but he came over and he wasn't pushing into the goal either. We were pushing along a ridge, um, and, and a thermal, a really wicked thermal, um, ripped off, um, this rocky point, um, and he came right into it and, and took the collapse. And, um, it was, I think it was recoverable, um, but it, or you throw a reserve right away, you know, either recover it right away or you throw the reserve right away. Yeah. Um, and So
that recognition of, okay, I've seen this, I know this, I know I can get this or I don't know if I'm going to get this throw And throw. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, how do people know when to step up to the next? You know, how do they, in your progression, how do you know when you're ready for a C from a B? How do you know when you're ready for a D? How do you know, uh, how should you fly a two liner?
Yeah. So, uh, I, I probably stepped up quicker than, um, I would recommend, um, yeah, so, but I, I, I think every time, cause every time I stepped up to a new wing, it's, it's, you sort of like rise to the occasion of, you know, what that wing demands. And I remember having, having, always having some sort of episode every time I stepped up to a new wing, you know? Um, and then when I realized that was going to be the case, I always made sure that when I was on a new wing, I had height, I had plenty of height before I started going, you know, full bar before I started really pushing it. Um, and, and so then I would, I would get those, you know, a full frontal on bar, you know, and I would have 3000 feet to deal with it, you know, it's no big deal. So, um, so I guess knowing, yeah.
Yeah. Let's, you know, as far as stepping up, you, you probably should, should be thinking, um, there's nothing in this, this wing's not holding me back anymore, you know?
Um, and, and be thinking like, this
wing is holding me, I
mean, yeah, this wing is holding me back now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You should be doing long flight. I mean, people are doing huge flights on bees, you know? So, and, and honestly, in the, in the Wasatch, um, I don't think I'd be flying an Enzo, um, if I wasn't flying PWC's also, you know? Yeah. There's really no reason to be on an Enzo. You're going
downwind. I'm
going downwind for the big flights, um, you know, like I was talking about the flight in Canada and it was nice having the Enzo for that into the wind leg. But other than that, it's like you, it holds you back a little bit because it is a little more work to handle. And um, so you're not going near the terrain as, as often as you would. Yep. Um, so yeah, I don't think I'd be on the Enzo if I was flying, if I wasn't flying PWC's. But since I'm flying competitions, then it doesn't make any sense not to be, you know? I need to be comfortable
with that. So
for you, you're doing it as training. Yeah, exactly. There's no point in going and flying a PWC and push as hard as you possibly can on a wing that you only fly, you know, a month or two out of the year, you know? It doesn't make sense.
Let's talk competitions for a little bit. You've just recently kind of really gotten into the, the World Cup game. You just got back from your first Superfinal in Mexico, um, Columbia Nationals. Um. What are you learning? What do you need to learn?
Oh yeah. A lot. Everything. Um. D? The answer's D? All of the above? Yeah. Yeah. All of the above. Um. Yeah. So the, the Superfinal was an eye-opener. It's just insane how fast those guys fly, you know? Yeah. And to, and to have a hundred pilots flying that fast is, is incredible, you know? Uh, so yeah, what I learned was that, um, you know, you have to be, you have to be a gaggle pilot, um, to be able to hang with the lead gaggle the whole way. But then you also need to be bold and, um, be, you know, inventive to be able to pick, you know, a line at the end, um, to be able to like, you know, get out ahead if you want to get out ahead. So if you, if you fly the gaggle the whole time, you're gonna, you're gonna end up in 60th place and finishing with the lead gaggle in 60th, you know, it's, and so if you want to break in.
And what I've, what I kind of figured was, you know, top 30, you really need to be, um, making some of your own moves, you know, top 60, you could stick with the gaggle the whole time. Um, but top 30, you got to make your own moves.
How many hours would you say you've been flying in the last, since 2009 or like an, a yearly average?
Oh, that's tough. Cause I've never kept track of hours. Shame on you for not logging your flight. Nobody should buy a wing for me.
Um, yeah, I probably, I fly, I fly a lot, you know, I fly a lot, you know, so I, I probably do, um, I estimated on my, my first Enzo, I probably put 500 hours on it. Um, and that was in about a year, a year and a half maybe, you know, so on just the XC wing and then, you know, going through a, um, an Acro wing every year or so too, I think now.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Wow.
Okay. A lot of hours.
A lot of hours. Yeah.
Um, so let's put that in perspective with, you know, um, the training you've done. Um, well actually, if you're flying that much, uh, I know from hanging out with you for the last couple of weeks and earlier in the year and stuff, you're super passionate about this. You're way into it. Um, what are you finding? What's gripping you so much? What's what's, why is this thing got you so much when you're doing it so much? Cause that a lot of people would go home. Oh my God. If I ever asked it, that's a recipe for burnout.
Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it is, it's, it's, it's a lot of, it can be, you know, you can burn out, I think. And I get to that point where, um, we'll just this past week, you know, I'm getting frustrated with something cause I'm doing it over and over and over again, trying to, to get a move, you know, trying to do a move and, and, um, and yeah, I think you have to, you have to, you have to be excited about those little progressions that you make, you know? And that's, and for me, that's like, if, if I have a little bit of a progression, if I can feel that I'm improving a little bit, you know, like, like I get that, the misty to helly to work even better, you know, um, faster transitions between everything cleaner, you know? And, and it's, it's to me like that's, that's the addicting part of it, you know, and it, it feels, there's nothing that feels better than, than doing that, you know, nailing like a misty to helly and it's just perfect, you know?
Um, so, so yeah, it's, it's, that's, what's driving me. I think. It's one of those small progressions because I still have so much to do and, um, you know, I, I still have, you know, I, I need, I have a lot more, you know, ways to improve. So yeah, I think once I get to, I don't know, once I get talked to me in three more years, you know, like if I ever master this, then yeah, maybe I'll, I'll be burning out on it. I think
that's what I love about it is we can't master it.
Yeah. That's impossible. Especially with the XC. It's like, there's always new lines and, and I think there's. There's, you can always feel like you can go further, you know, and that's, I'm excited about that too. Cause I think this year, um, I was able to do some long flights last year, but this year I'm realizing like I can push harder. You know, there's, there was points in that flight, those, those long flights I did where I could have been full bar and I could have been pushing harder to gain another 30 minutes, which sometimes in the end of the day, that means that you can make a transition and then make another, you know,
glass off or something. Yeah. 30, 40
miles potentially. Yeah. Yeah. Leaving
miles on the table is. Yeah. Yeah. Sucks.
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.
Speaking of long flights, you did a really cool one with Nick this last year. Tell me about that
one. Yeah. Yeah. That was, that was amazing. That was, I've never had, I've never, we shared basically every thermal for 173 miles.
Where did you take off?
So we took off from Horse Heaven, which is, um, just south of, you know, Salt Lake about an hour and a half or so. Um. Yeah. Um, and, and we flew due south. Um. Were you both
on ENZOs?
We were both on ENZOs. Yeah. Flew due south, uh, to the border with, with Arizona, pretty much a few miles from the border. Um, so it was about 173 miles and every, every thermal we, we, we worked together. Um, it was amazing. It was really cool. I learned a ton from him. You know, I learned a lot just, just hanging in there with him. And uh, there's one point, um, you know, if you, if you've been to Southern Utah, um, or in Utah in general. If you head south, you're, you're leaving this, you know, these, these high mountains and all of a sudden it's, it's, the terrain is dropping off and you're getting into red rock country desert, you know, and it's, it's amazing transition, you know, the, the, um, it's, it's just incredible, the colors and, and, um, it was later. Starkness. Yeah. The starkness of it. It's, it's incredible. So later in the flight, as we came, um, you know, as we got south over Bryce Canyon, um, we hooked up with this, this Cloud Street.
That was, uh, you know, close to 19,000 feet or so, you know, so we're just, we're from 19,000 feet looking over Bryce Canyon. It's just a beautiful, beautiful view. Um, and we, we, we get into this, this Cloud Street and this cell plane just, you know, flies right past us, you know, and the whole flight, you know, it's been Nick and I, you know, out in the middle of nowhere. And then we see the cell plane, you know, cruising past us and from his view, you know, I can imagine what he was thinking. You know, here's six feet. There's two paragliding pilots out there. Are these a couple of Darwin Award guys? What the hell's going on? And at that point, Nick, Nick had just like pointed his Enzo at the ground, spiraling, trying to get out of this cloud suck that was taking him up to 19,000 feet.
And I'm on full bar cause I see him getting sucked up. So I'm on full bar, just hammering the thing, gripping the bees, you know, snot run out of my nose. My, my visor's all frozen up. I can barely see out of my hands are frozen solid. I can't feel my hands anymore. But I have to stay on full bar or else I'm going to get sucked up into this cloud. And then this cell plane just kind of cruises past us like, I'm like picturing from his, you know, from the cockpit, you know, he's probably at classical music playing, you know, just enjoying it. Cut to us. We're just like, oh, just gripped, you know, just, just getting worked by the elements, you know? And, uh, that was the funniest thing, you know, like to, to, it puts things in perspective, like what we're doing out there, you know, we're just, there's no barrier.
Right. Yeah. You're hanging by a thread and it was just the coolest feeling, you know, to be out there, you know, you know, whatever, 10,000, 12,000 feet above the desert and, and just, you know, getting sucked up into this huge cloud. It would just felt like it was, it was exactly where you wanted to be at the time.
And you guys were, were you on oxygen?
Yeah. Yeah. And so that's the other thing too. I was racing my, my oxygen cause it was running out and eventually I ran out in this cloud street and it was the end of the day. And if we could have just, you know, powered under this cloud street, we could have gone to the grand Canyon, um, and, and, uh, you know, it would have been 200 plus miles. Um, but at one point my oxygen runs out and then I realized I'm hypoxic. Um, I get a splitting headache when I'm hypoxic to where, and I get really nauseous. So I had to, I had to get out of the cloud street, lose some height, get some feeling back in my hands, you know, and, and I'm doing this and I see Nick, you know, just kind of cruising over my head and he's like, I got you, you don't need to be together anymore. He was, he was rooting for me.
And I, I finally, um, got, you know, got into a really slow climb, you know, um, and, and got all the way back up to 17, five late in the day, went on glide, um, and, oh, it was incredible. Did you get
hypoxic again?
I did. Yeah. But I thought I was like, you kind of don't really, once you get down and you're okay. And you think, okay, well I think I can do it again. Right. Right.
Oh, it's so disorienting.
Isn't it? Yeah. The last
time I got really hypoxic, I forgot that I was flying a paraglider. I was just looking around, you know, everything was, it was like, oh, there's a mine and there's some birds. I mean, oh, wait a minute. I'm flying. Do you remember? Oh, look at that. Look at that over there.
I think that's why I was so disassociated. You know, like I was thinking I was like flying the cell plane, you know, and having this out of body experience, you know, that was great.
That's really cool. Back to comps, you're going down to the Brazil PWC in April. What will you, what will, how will your approach be different or change or what will you be working on there from the comps you just did?
Yeah. So I think I developed, so this in, see January, all of January, I went, I hit the Menarca open in Valle. And then the Superfinal right after, and then I went to Columbia and hit the Colombian open. So three comps back to back. And after the Superfinal, I was, I was so burned out on gaggle flying, but I proved myself that I could hang with the gaggle and I could be a gaggle pilot, which for me, and I think for us, for people that fly XC out here, you know, it's, that's the hardest thing in the world. It's not natural. It's not fun sometimes. Yeah. But it's because you're so, you're so close, you know, you're, you're just brushing up against people in thermals. And it's, it's not really enjoyable. It's pretty intense. Yeah. Um, and, and also it's like just independent minded people want to take different lines and even though, you know, if they're taking the right line, you know, you're like, ah, I'm going to take this line, you know, just to try to pull it off.
Right. Um, so anyway, I proved to myself I could fly gaggles. And then in the Colombian open, I had a couple of bad days right off the bat and then I was like, okay, screw it. I'm just going to take this comp and I'm just going to try to win every task and see how, how I can. You know, just how fast I can fly and, you know, pull off low saves and, and try to develop that. Stay out front. Stay out front. Yeah. Cause I needed that. Cause I was, whenever I was out front before and winning a task, I'd get really excited. You know, I'd be, I'd be so excited. And then I'd be on the ground, you know, everybody's flying over my head, you know, and then I get so frustrated. I ended up putting myself on the ground anyway, you know? And so I knew I needed to get over that, but the only way to do it was to continually put myself on the ground.
And I ended up putting myself in that situation. So I kept doing that and I think I got over that. So now I'm going to try to blend the two strategies. You know, I need to stay with the gaggle and then, um, you know, use, use that independent mind to, for the end game, you know, and
what was your, what was your initial attraction? Why'd you fly your first comp? Why'd you get into comp flying?
Uh, let's see. I flew, the rat race was my first comp and, and, um, I think, I guess I got into it because it was, um, you know, it was, I've heard that it was. It was the way to improve your XC skills. Um, and then when I flew my first comp, I really enjoyed it. It was really fun, but it was a rat race, you know, so it wasn't too stressful. And, and, um, I was on a C wing and, uh, I had a great time. I made goal quite a bit. I'd come in, you know, like maybe 30 minutes after the guys, the leaders, you know, and I'd be like scraping before the task. Yeah. And, uh, but it was, it was fun and, and it just became addicting after that, you know, to, um, to see the improvement because it's, you can, you can see right the instantaneously, you know, if you're flying well or not, when you're flying side by side with somebody, you can see like, am I gliding well, you know, or are they gliding better than me?
Like what are they? And then if they are gliding better than you, what are they doing? You know, are they, how are they handling their wing differently from you? You know, how are they working the speed bar differently from you? Um, you know, how are they picking their lines differently? And it's, it's insane. And you realize pretty quickly that we fly incredibly slow and it's almost, it's, it's funny to think that we're racing these things that fly 40 miles an hour, you know, for a fast comp wing. So it's all about it. You realize like there's strategy then to flying a slow aircraft, you know, and it's all about climbing quickly. And then it's all about very, very small, you know, movements and changes like moving over to get a little lifty line here and moving. You know, moving maybe a hundred meters here to pick up this lifting line or, or, you know, getting a little bit better piece of the core.
Um, and then that you add that up over three or four hours and it makes a difference, you know? So you've
talked about quite a bit about strategy and kind of like leading out maybe more kind of the mental game. What about like the, just the, the base physics of, of flying faster, beaten people like the, the base skills, climbing, gliding. Um, yeah. Like, do you, do you have any kind of advice for, for how people should approach that? Cause it in, in my own flying, I've, I find that climbing is pretty easy and gliding is pretty hard to climb. Gliding seems to be this like Chrigel ask, it's almost like you can't be taught. Yeah.
You just have to,
you have to feel those lines. Is that, are you having that? Yeah. It does
seem like it, it gliding, picking those, those good lines. Um. It does seem like this intuitive thing, you know, and, and sometimes you feel like you're in tune with the day and it's happening and then other times it doesn't. But I, I know in Columbia I was feeling consistently every day I felt like I was gliding well and picking good lines, you know? Um, and, and I think I was tuning into, um, the area, you know, I was tuning into the cloud development. So I'm looking a lot at clouds and that, and if you have clouds, you know, and you're flying cause it's, it's flat there. You have, you have the mountains you launched from. When you head out over the flats, there's some terrain, but you're flying clouds a lot. And even here in the Wasatch, we fly clouds, a big flights. When you're at 18,000 feet, you're flying clouds. And so getting into tune with clouds and getting, putting yourself in those lines that are, that are just developing, seeing them as they're just starting to develop, that's, that's key.
You know? So I'm watching, always watch, looking up, watching the clouds and just seeing that first little wisp of cloud starting to grow, you know? And, and, and. And recognizing like the wind direction and, and then putting myself in the right place to get in that line, you know, that lifty line. Um, yeah, it's, it's really, I think it comes with experience, you know? Um, and, and, and when you're in a comp, um, you can, you can make those decisions and you can see what decisions other people made and see which one worked out and which one didn't, you know?
Have you found that you've got a certain kind of, um, like when you reflect on your day, I don't know if you do that. Like when I bomb out or, you know, a fuck up or something, I'm always, I always try to spend some time before I pack up or even after I back up just to kind of like, okay, what did I, what did I do right? What did I do wrong? You know? Cause even on bomb out days, you've done some good stuff typically too. But have you found that there's a, like a mental, like a, you know, on days that you've done really well, have you found that you're in a different head space or any, or is it something you can prepare or, um, practice to be more often in that head space? Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. I don't know how analytical or how detailed we should get, but I definitely, in the beginning flying comps and still now, um, every, after every task I would, I would sit and analyze it, you know? Like, so that night I would sit and I would replay it, I'd visualize exactly what I did, you know? Um, and I would do it over and over and over again and I would look for the things that I did well and then look for things that I didn't do so well, you know, or what put me on the ground. I try to determine like, you know, why did I not, you know, why was this not an outcome that I liked? Whether I, you know, dirted or I didn't come in, you know, fast enough to goal. What decision along the course that I'd make that, that put me there, you know? So
you're really thinking about it. So
yeah. Yeah. Visualize every single move I made. Um, and I'm kind of, I'm thinking more strategy now, you know, not, not, you know, how I'm handling the wing and how I'm climbing and gliding. Right. You can sort of separate that out and then, um, and then think of just strategy, you know, like, do you follow this guy? Gaggle? Or do you break out on your own? You know, those sorts of things. Um, where are you going to position yourself in that gaggle? You know? Um, and so I would sit down and I would think about, um, that, and then I would try to, to make a decision, you know, if I was in that position again, what decision I w I would make differently, you know? Okay. Um, but I, I, I would just sort of, I would really break it down, actually would sit down and write it out, you know, and I would think about different positions that I could be in.
Throughout the race and then have a set of decisions that I can make, you know, um, when I was in those positions.
Is there a crossover there too, then when you just fly from home and you're trying to fly big, how are you, how are you, how do you approach those days? Like you had these 10 days last year that were, that were monsters. Um, is that, is that a similar kind of an approach or is it more, is that more of an endurance event?
It's more endurance and it's more handling your wing. So the gliding and climbing part. You know, so that the strategy doesn't really carry over, but the gliding climbing does. Um, so you learn how to glide and climb really well in comps, um, by just paying attention to people around you. If somebody is out gliding you or out climbing you, then you have to make a change. You know, if you're, if they're on the same wing as you are, then you're doing something wrong. Um, so you have to figure out what that is. And then once you figure it out, you, you, you're getting it down, you know, and you can carry that over now into XC flying. And um, and, and then the strategy for XC. XC is going to be completely different. The strategy for comps is really, it's, it's completely different. You know what I mean? You're really flying other people. You're flying the gaggle. You're always, always paying attention to what other people are doing.
And I've recently found that out. I knew it, you know, early on, but didn't realize how much attention you have to pay to somebody. And if you can see, if you had eagle eyes, you could see somebody climbing, you know, and if they, you know, way out in front and if they're climbing a little bit faster, you know, than you are, or you see them hit like a core, you can tell exactly how strong that core is. And then immediately you're, you're positioning yourself to take advantage of that. You know? I
like that you say that. One of the things that I noticed with, with lesser pilots at comps is they move way too slowly. And I don't mean that by speed of their glider, it's that I'm in a better climb. Why aren't you coming to me? And they're over there farting around in their little climb and I'm right in you. You can see each other. So you need to be like a bobble head, don't you? Really watching.
Yeah. And I told myself, I kind of made some rules of thumb, you know, to try to simplify things after thinking about stuff and visualizing that I'd make a few rules of thumb and like, okay, now just focus on this. Yeah. And one of them was always move to somebody who's got a thermal in front of you on course line, you know, always, right? Like there'll be occasional scenarios where, you know, that person will be in a lighter climb or, or, you know, broken climb or something, you know, But if you don't
go to them, you're going to lose them.
Exactly. Yeah. So, and if they're, if, if it's on course line, you know, then they're marking a thermal, you know, that's, that's a given for you, you know, you should be moving quickly to that right away. I
would say probably the only, the only time that with the, with the caveat of if you're in a thermal that's stronger than anything you've had all day, sometimes then you can jump them. Yeah, exactly. If suddenly you've hooked like a low save or something, you've hooked a winger. Yeah. Then that's
true. And that's, and those, and that would be a move. That's a decision you'd have to make. Like, do I want to try to jump them here or do I want to stick with the gaggle? Yeah. You know, is this my move where I can actually get ahead of them or should I stick with them, you know? And yeah, like that's how you can get ahead is, I mean, it's simple what we do, right? You fly as fast as you can glide as fast as you can and you climb as fast as you can. Just do everything fast. And whoever That's the end of the podcast. Done.
This is worthless, man. So much talk. Oh,
man. I'm sorry. Buy low, sell high. Just graduated in finance. It's true though. You're right. It's, it's,
it's so funny how simple it really is. You know, it's like, and you have to, you have to remember that you have to come back to that and be like, all right, did, did I waste my time in a thermal today? That was not going up as like at max, you know, velocity, right? Like if you have a max for the day you know, which let's say it's 800 feet per minute and you were, you were, you know, taking around and 400 all the way to base, you just wasted probably 20 minutes. Yeah. You know? Exactly. So, and then, and if you recognize that, then that's where you can make your moves in comps too, um, is you, you, you find that, that thermal that's going up at 800 and you stay in it and everybody else moves, they keep moving, they keep moving. But, but that, that 800 is the max for the day. They're not going to find anything better.
So you stay in it, you take it all the way to base and now you've just positioned yourself above them and you know, and you're, you're a little bit behind, so now they're marking, but you've got all the height. Yeah. You're in a better position.
Yeah. It's all about positioning, isn't it? Yeah. Um, take me back to, if you can remember, uh, your 50 hour self, uh, this is a question that people always like to get. What would you, if you could go back to your 50 hour self that first year, what would be, what would be your recommendation or advice to, to Cody?
Oh, let's see. 50 hour self. Yeah. Um, that's not a lot of hours. No, no. No. You're just starting out. Um, I, I, I, yeah, I made some, some risky decisions for sure. Yeah. And I probably got lucky a few times. Um, I would say, I would say find, find a mentor, you know, I wish I would have had a mentor early on that, that, um, I could, you know, just latch onto and, and, um, you know, drain them of all their knowledge and then beat them later. Yeah.
No, no, it's true though. You know? I'm finding somebody that you can, you can, um, that you can be, that that's a mentor for you. And, um, that basically so that they can tell you if what you're doing is really risky and it's going to bite you, you know? So like with acro, I wish I would have had somebody, I wish I would have had somebody telling me, um, when I was learning the infinite, not to do certain things. Yeah. Um, because I essentially, you know, learned it on my own and, um, learned it the hard way. So, yeah. Yeah. Like I went into the wing once, um, which was not fun.
Yeah. Um,
yeah. So, um,
we've been training over the dirt, uh, I don't have hardly any acro training. Um, is that something you would recommend or is that, what are the, that's a stupid question. Obviously you wouldn't recommend that, but, um, when is that appropriate, I guess is what I'm saying. You know? When does that work for somebody? Cause we do live in a place to get time over the water over
the water is really hard. Yeah. Um, you can get to a point, you know, in your training where you're confident enough that you can prevent the wing from going below you. So you can keep the wing, keep yourself from going into the wing. The two, two, let's break it down to the two worst scenarios are first going into the wing. You know, if you go into the wing and you're high, you can likely get out of it, but you'll have lines wrapped around you. Yeah. And, um, you could be in a configuration where you couldn't get a reserve or the reserve would catch on lines as you're trying to throw it out, but you have two reserves. Maybe you can get at least one of them to get out and get above your head. Um, the second thing that's going to happen is getting twisted up. So the wings overhead, but you have five twists and you can't pull the brakes through five twists. Um, so the wing is, is just going to do what it's, what it's doing.
And um, so those are the two scenarios. And if you can be confident that you can, um, avoid the first one. Okay. And then control the second one, then I think you can be training over the ground. Um, so if it, to get to that point though, means that you need to get deep stall dialed, you know, for me, it was going to Turkey, you know, twice for five weeks training every single day, um, and doing it on, on a bunch of different wings since then now, and just getting comfortable with, with the deep stall, you know, so that when you're in that situation with the twists. Yeah. Um, you know, if you say, if you, if you're, you know, trying to link to, if you're trying to do the heli, you know, um, and you end up getting twisted up, which is really easy to do.
Um, the moment that you notice that you're about to get twisted, you go to deep stall. So now when the brakes wrap themselves up, you're in deep stall and the wings overhead, it's basically open, but it's in a stable configuration, not flying. Right. So, and you're coming down as fast as you would be under like a really small reserve. And, and, um, you know, I actually hit the ground. Yeah. Under deep stall. Um, I took a collapse on my Acura wing just in thermic conditions. I was rich soaring and, uh, took a collapse, um, wasn't paying attention like I should have been, could have avoided the collapse, but I was maybe 80 feet up and I, I just brought it to deep stall and then, um, hit the ground, um, under deep stall and I walked away with it just fine. Had a little whiplash. Um, I know a good friend also that has done the same thing and, um, yeah, are
you talking about me?
Uh, you. Yeah. Well, yeah, I wasn't going to let you tell that story, but also as well, another, another friend of mine has done that too, you know, actually two of my friends have done that, you know? So if, if, if that's stable and if it's stable and if it's overhead and you hit right, you're going to be okay. Um, I'm not, I'm not, I shouldn't be recommending that, you know, but, but my point is, is that that scenario for me and for the two other guys that I'm thinking of, you know, for you, it was, it was also the best scenario. Yeah. For the two other guys I'm thinking of, it was the best scenario because if they had let the wing restart, they would have swung and hit the ground with, you know, 10 times the speed. Right. Um, so, so yeah, I think that, that, um, that's, that's, if you can, if you can manage that deep stall and control it, um, then you're, you're, it's really not a big deal.
You're twisted up and you just throw your reserve and it, you know, so, so, and now we've got the base systems, so you can, you can actually just, um, disconnect from your wing completely, um, and have the base come out. So Have
you ever thrown your reserve while flying XC?
Uh, no, no, but I've, I've been close once. Yeah. Yeah. On the boom nine, I remember in VIA, um, and I was fairly new on the two liner. Um, and I remember having a, a full frontal on, on full bar and, and, um, and it got out of control and I think because of my acro training, I, I was just thinking this is out of control and it's going to get worse. So I went to throw and then, you know, as soon as you go to throw, of course, it sorted itself out so that I, I just put it back in my lap and it went and won the day. It went. No, no.
That's awesome. Yeah.
Um, two reserves when you're flying XC.
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a good idea. Yeah. Because it's, you know, if you have an equipment malfunction with the first reserve or you, let's say you throw it and it goes into your canopy, um, goes into your wing, uh, then you've always got a second. And also with flying and PWCs now, I'm realizing that, you know, mid airs are a very common occurrence and I would love to have two reserves in a mid air situation, you know? Sure. Absolutely. So. Um,
you taught me something here. Uh, now that I've got some reserve experience, uh, that I, I had never heard in SIV or, uh, anything that I'd done. But tell me about how you should throw your reserve.
Yeah. So in that, that second scenario we were talking about where you're twisted, um, and you had the, the, um, you know, the, the right mind at that point, you'd recognize you were getting twisted. So you went to deep stall, um, twisted five times, breaks are locked in deep stall. Um, what you want to do, what I've been doing is been putting both toggles in one hand and, and keeping them, you know, at my waist. And then I go and throw the reserve with my second reserve. Um, just because there's situations where, you know, if, if you go to throw and, uh, as soon as you let go of the toggle, the wing shoots, um, you're not going to get that reserve out fast enough. Um, and that's, that's, that's happened to me early on back row training, you know? So I got the reserve out and, um, you know, just high five the wing as I'm about to throw the reserve.
And then of course, after high-fiving the wing, it sorts itself out and I put the reserve back in.
Okay. So I just want to make sure that's clear for the listeners because it's, uh, it's, it's really, I think what's even more so than the technicalities of what you're doing is that the, you know, you, the listener should understand that, uh, you need to have the presence of mind to take your hand out of one toggle, put it in the other, keep it in a solid deep stall, reach down very calmly. You got plenty of time and throw your reserve and, and you're not going to be able to do that in my mind, unless you've practiced it, you know, I mean, that's, that's being comfortable with deep stall or even a tail slides even easier, you know, not there's totally benign maneuver I've learned on this trip is just no big deal. You can steer it around. You can wave at people. It's nothing with two hand. It's no big deal.
So, um, I think people should really think on that, you know, are you ready to go send it 150 miles in the Wasatch if you don't have some of these skills?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And also, you know, even if you're not in that twisted configuration, if you're, if you're going to throw your reserve, um, just make sure that you put both toggles in one hand and keep them down, you know? Yeah. Um, so that when you do throw, yeah, it's not pulling the toggles up and diving on you. Yeah. The
wings just flapping around overhead. Yeah. Totally safe. Yeah. And just throw it, throw
it out to the side as hard as you can. Yeah.
Hard and fast. Hard
and fast. Yeah.
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Um, the last thing I just want to end with, uh, is flying bees, uh, on your bees. You talked the other day about, uh, the, the first, the thing that made all this podcast happen was, uh, back at the Sun Valley PWC, Russ Ogden gave an amazing talk one day when the weather was terrible. The weather was terrible a lot, but he gave a really good talk about, um, flying two liners, modern two liners, and was saying, you know, basically like if you're having a frontal on a two liner. You're way behind the eight ball. Like it used to be in the old days. We just all heard, you know, if something goes wrong, hands up on something goes wrong on a comp glider hands up. You're yeah. It's not good. That's not the reaction that you should be doing. Um, so tell me about what you've learned about flying on the bees.
Yeah. Yeah. That was a learning curve for sure. Jumping on a two liner. And um, so I, I, uh, I, when I first got my first Enzo, um, it wasn't my first two liner, but it was a two liner. It was, it was much stiffer, you know? And so taking a frontal on bar on that thing, um, the, the full frontals were better than the, an asymmetric collapse on when you're on bar, the asymmetric, it would shoot and immediately be 45 past 45 degrees. Um, and I realized pretty quickly that the, the, the response that you've been trained to do, you know, wasn't the right response on a, on a two liner. And um, as soon as, and what I was doing wrong. Yeah. I was going from the beast, the brakes, you know? So whenever I felt, whenever I took the collapse, I would hit the brakes, but the second, the split second, it took me to go from the beast, the brakes, the wing had already shot.
Um, and so now after I learned that, I mean, I took, I took some full frontals and some asymmetrics on bar. And then as soon as I figured that out, I haven't taken anything on the Enzo, um, because it is such a stiff wing and, um, you, it, it doesn't want to collapse. Um, but if you stay on the bees when it does, um, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, you know, when, when it's about to go, then, and you just give it everything you can on the bees, you can go really deep in the bees. I found then it, it, if it does go, it's going to be much more benign and it's not going to shoot. Yeah. So I had, I actually had a frontal on, on the Enzo and Columbia, um, first time on that new Enzo that I have, because I was on full bar pushing out of a thermal to avoid a cloud and, and came to the edge of the thermal and took a frontal and, um, hammered it hard.
So that frontal just did this benign sort of, you know, tuck, um, and, and then popped out so violently, it blew out three cells, you know, but it was, it was, it was a totally benign frontal, but it's just such a stiff wing that all of that energy had to go somewhere, you know, and it, it, it just exploded open, you know, and instead of shooting below me. Um, so yeah, that was, that was definitely a learning curve was, was staying on the bees, staying on the bees. Being really active. Yeah. And, and really go deep on the bees to prevent anything that, that might happen. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That was really helpful for me for sure. Cool. Yeah. So
Cody, we've been talking a lot about, you know, safety and training and progression and, uh, all these things, but what we haven't talked about too much is just the, the very obvious dangers of paragliding and risk. You and I were talking about wingsuiting and base jumping the other day and, uh, talking about kind of having this. We feel like we've got this. Margin, this margin of safety that we can always maintain and paragliding. Um, but even with that margin, we're definitely playing with fire up there from time to time. Um, how do you justify what we're, what we're doing?
Yeah, that's a good question. Um, for, for me, I've had a few, a handful of experiences that, that were incredible, you know, that were, it's hard to put to words, you know, um, we were talking about that flight I had with Nick. Um. You know, being in a paraglider over the desert Southwest, you know, with a, with a friend and sharing every thermal for 170 miles, it's indescribable, you know, like that you, you won't have that experience doing anything else you do, you know, because it combines so many different things. You're all the work it takes to get there, to be able to make that flight. Um, and, and all that you need to, to do to get out there, you know, all the little subtle details of, you know, controlling your wing and, and, um, you know, reading
the sky,
reading the sky and, and, and then to be able to experience, and then to have all of that come together on a day, have the weather work out for you, you know, and have all that come together, um, to do that flight is, is it's yeah, there's nothing like it. And for me, every, you know, I've had a lot of, you know, I've had friends die and I've had a lot of friends get hurt and, um, I know that possibility is there, you know, you've
had them die and get hurt in paragliding.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and so I know, I mean, I've seen it happen and I know, I know that it can, you know, I know that risk is there. Um, I like to think that, you know, you can control, control it. You know, we talked about base jumping, how that's, it seems like you can't control that, that risk to a certain extent, you know? Um, and so I, in, in paragliding, I feel like you can control a lot of it. Yeah. Um, and, and then in the area. Areas where you're not able to control it, uh, you, you take that risk on because you think it's worth it, you know? And having those experience, like I was saying, you know, the, that, the flight in Canada that I recently did, that was, that was amazing. I wouldn't trade that for the world, you know? Um, and, and for me it's worth it, you know?
So if I get hurt doing this, I think I'd like to think I'd look back and say it was worth it. You know? Yeah. Um, because I don't know at this point, I don't know what else I'm going to do. You know? Once you, once you have those experiences, you, it's hard to.
At the, at the end of, of 500 miles to nowhere and Nate goes, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's dangerous and it's fun and it's beautiful, but what else are you going to do with yourself?
Exactly. What else are you going to do? I
like that. So, um, well, Hey, we're in an hour. We're going to go do some more towing, I think, uh, and, uh, I think we'll end it on that unless you got anything else. You want to add? No,
let's go flying. All
right, man. Cool. Thanks very much. Cody. That was great. All right. Thanks, man. Well,
I hope you enjoyed that. I certainly did really cool to sit down with a good friend I've been training with and, uh, and get all of that insight and advice and, uh, have some laughs. I hope you got a lot out of that as well. Um, as always, all we ask for is a buck show. Uh, we're not funding this with sponsorship or anything else, just through our listeners and as our listener base grows, that really helps really appreciate your generosity. You can find the link to, uh, if you want to donate to the show, you can find that link on the website, cloudbasedman.com on any of the podcasts, you'll see it right down below the description of, uh, whoever I'm sitting down with this week. I finally got, I've got some great news for y 'all. I finally got a scheduled time. Hopefully this one's going to go through, uh, with the illustrious and elusive, uh, Will Gadd, uh, this going down actually tomorrow on Monday.
So, uh, looking forward to that conversation. Uh, if you have any questions for will, uh, shoot me a message. Hit me, hit me up on Facebook or Twitter or the cloud-based mayhem, and I'll, I'll put them out in front of him and, uh, until we see each other again, fly far, have fun, be safe and, uh, cheers.