And I stopped the glider, I was again headwind, and then it start immediately spinning from the other side. Then I stop it again, I keep in a kind of tail slide, I let the glider fly, and then I was like maybe 20 or 30 meters next to the cliff. And then it comes a next gust, which like just take me and threw me up with the glider was like 90 degrees next to me. I was in a kind of wingover, but somehow climbing, and it lift me up, and then it shoot me down on the lee side. So in that situation, for sure, I was kind of good to keep the glider open, but I felt I don't have the control of what I'm doing.
I'm just a leaf in a strong wind, you know. And yeah, that's make me feel really small, and that was the thing which scared me the most, because I felt like this and the power which was there, it was way bigger than me, and that's what I can't control this. Pretty scary
tale there related from Aaron Durogati about one of his experience in this year's X-Alps. That's a little prelude of things to come. Welcome to another episode of the Cloudbase Mayhem podcast. Before we get into this podcast with Aaron Durogati, just wanted to do a little bit of housekeeping with you all. First and foremost, thank you all so much for your generous donations. These are actually taking more and more time as I get a little bit better at editing and trying to make them a little bit cleaner. I really appreciate that and allows me to give beers and stuff to these guys when I see them. So thank you for that. Many of you have asked where you can do that. You can't do it through iTunes or Stitcher. You have to go through the website, cloudbasemayhem.com. Each of the podcast does that. Down below the podcast and the write-up about the athlete or whoever I'm talking to is a little donate button.
You'll see it there. It works through PayPal. It's pretty seamless and takes just a couple seconds. Thank you very much for that. If you don't want to miss any of these on the homepage of the Cloudbase Mayhem, you can find where you can put in your email address, and I'll send you out a newsletter each time one of these comes out so you won't miss a podcast in the future. We don't spam. I don't sell that list to anybody else. So totally safe. If you want to communicate with me as well, give me your advice or feedback from any of these shows or people you want to have on the show or questions, feel free to link up with me either through Facebook or through that website. Aaron Durogati. This guy has a career at the age of 29 that would make most people really jealous at the age of 60.
I cannot believe how much Aaron's gotten done. He started flying with his dad when he was like six years old. He started flying solo on his own when he was 15. He's only 29 now. The first time I flew with Aaron was at the Superfinal in 2014 in Colombia, which he won. He became the world champion that year. He's competed in the X-Alps now twice. He was seventh in 2013, and he was sixth this time around. He and I spent quite a bit of time together training this spring in his neck of the woods around Murano, Italy, when we were learning the course line around Turnpoint 5 to Turnpoint 6. The Brenta down to Piskorovac. So I love Aaron. He's a great guy, great personality, super passionate about the sport.
He's a wicked backcountry skier, speed pilot, acro pilot, tumbles, you name it. He can do it really well on a wing. And in this episode, we get into his sponsorship contracts and how that affects what he's doing with Red Bull and others. We talk about his tanning. We talk about his tanning business, about his dad, about how he's approached progression, mistakes he's made along the way, and how he's really switching from being kind of a purely comp pilot to more of a cross country pilot. I was quite surprised to learn this spring that the longest flight he'd had at that point was in the 2013 X-Alps, a little over 200K. I would have thought somebody like Aaron would be flying that kind of distance all the time. But it turns out for years and years, he was really just working on racing fast.
And so we talk about how he's changing that. We're going to be discussing things a little bit now and advice for new people getting into the sport, aha moments. We go to a lot of really cool places in this talk. I think you're going to really enjoy it. Some fantastic, valuable lessons from a guy who has just been crushing out there. So without further ado, Aaron Durrigano.
Aaron, good to talk to you. I'd love to be doing this face-to-face, but I believe you're in Murano. Is that correct?
Yes, yes. I'm at home now. I was in Tenerife until two days ago. But now I'm back home.
Were you competing out in Tenerife?
No, I was there for photo and video shooting for Salewa. It was me and Paul Guschlbauer for five days, just five days work.
Oh, cool. That's fun. I'm actually having him on the podcast next week. So we'll have to dive into what you guys did together. That's a good time. Hey, you know, one of the things I wanted to dive right into is, you know, I know a lot of your fans know your history quite well. But I think a lot of the people that listen to the Mayhem, that listen to the show are maybe not as familiar with your history. Can you just take, walk me back through? You're 29 now, is that correct?
Yeah, yeah, I'm 29. And I actually have a big history in the paragliding. Or I'm in this scene since many years. Because my father was pilot. So I have done my first tandem with him when I was six. And of course, because my father was my hero, I want to paraglide as well. And then I have done some couple of tandem with him. But actually, when I was 10, 11, I didn't really like it to fly tandem with him as passenger. I always want to fly alone. But because I was kind of little bit crazy kid, my father just let me start to real fly when I was 15.
Before I could just play a little bit with the glider on the field, but not really flying. But then with 15, he think I'm like maybe big enough to fly. And so then I start. And since ever that, I really push a lot. In Italy, it's cool because in the summer, we have three months off from the school. So in these three months, I was like flying every day. And after when the school start, I was flying in the afternoon as much as I could. And in Marano here, it's very, very easy because we have cable car everywhere. So I was just driving with my scooter to the school.
To the cable car station, going up. So I was always alone going flying. Just after school, I take my small scooter going to take the glider and going flying. Till the winter. In the winter, I was skiing because I was competing in ski till 18. But then in the spring again, I was flying as much as I could. With the target actually to become professional pilot competing in the World Cup. And I have like Jimmy Parker as hero.
And yes, soon I start with the competition as well. It takes me because at the time when I start, it was a bit different format in the World Cup. Like now, it's pretty easy to get into the World Cup. But when I start, it was the World Cup tour. It was not Superfinal. So the level was really high. You have to be like top five, top eight maximum. In your national to get into the World Cup. So it takes me a bit long. I start then World Cup in 2009. My first World Cup was in Korea. And then, yes, since that I was competing a lot in the World Cup. That year was the first year of the Superfinal.
Which I did pretty well. It was in Italy, in Poggio Bustone. I finished fourth. And it was my first. Fourth. I was also an international team player for China. Because I have flown actually in all my life only two brands. From the beginning, I was flying Nova. And then I was flying all the prototypes from Nova. And then in the summer of 2009, Nova decided to stop the developing of prototypes, competition glider, again. again, and because they have competition glider till 2000, then they stop it, and then they start again, and they have really good glider. But then in 2009, in the summer, they decided to stop, and I was super lucky because on my first workup, it was in Korea and I did pretty well.
I finished fourth, and I have done some podium tasks, and I got in touch with Jean, and then in that summer, without that, I asked anything, um, Jimmy, which is the Jean dealer in Italy, contact me to, um, I mean, that he got a call from Jean that he wanted I fly for him. So in that summer in '29, I because Nova was stopping the competition, the the prototypes, and at the same time, Jean asked me to becomes a Jean pilot and test pilot as well for him. So then I moved to Jean, and I I fly the Superfinal on the Boomerang 7 Proto, and I finished fourth.
And it was the Superfinal with the first two-liner, actually. It was Charles Cazot and Ogden was doing first and second with this Ozone two-liner. And there was Luca Donini on the Boomerang, which was third, and I was fourth. Wow, that's an amazing result. I was flying a lot of cross country competition, and then, yeah, up and down. The year after was a bit hard because Ozone has R10, R11, which was kind of a really good glider comparing what I was flying. Then was the year when I was flying Boomerang X, and Ozone has AIMS 01, which was a huge difference.
But in that year, I was flying really, like, black and white. I was winning some tasks but bombing out a lot. And on the Superfinal that year, Gene comes with the Boomerang 9, which was a bit better than AIMS 01. And with the experience of having always bad glider, I felt so easy to fly. And then I won the Superfinal in Colombia in 2011. So I became World Cup winner in 2013, but it was of the World Cup of 2012 because it was in January.
If we rewind the clock a little bit, was your passion for competition something that brewed from your father, or was that something you just kind of latched onto on your own?
Well, I was always a competitive guy. Like, my father was competing, but just small. Small competition. He was a good pilot in my area, in the area where we live. And he was doing some regional competition, national competition. But he was not, like, really pushing to win or something. He has fun on the competition. He liked to do it. But for me, it was different because I was competing already in ski, and I'm very competitive. And he had the fact that since kids, I want to fly.
I connected not only to fly, but I connected I want to compete and become, like, a top pilot. That was always my idea since I was a kid.
So that was kind of what you set to be your goal as a career?
Yeah, yeah.
That's pretty neat. That's harder. I mean, I don't think many people in my neck. I don't think many people in my neck. view it that way because it's such a smaller sport. It's quite hard to actually make a living. But you also have a tandem business. Is that correct? Or is your whole business just sponsorship and your own flying?
No. I have a tandem business because my father had it. Okay. So now I'm running this business. But. It gives me a lot in the in the past year, I was, I was flying a lot of tandem to, to, to earn the money which I need to compete.
But luckily, in the last three years change a lot. I managed to get really good sponsor and now I'm done. I'm just managing the tandem business and flying a little bit myself. But not as before. And now I can focus more on my training and fly more my own. And in the last year, I anyway start a lot of training in matter of running and ski touring, which I really like and gym. So, yeah, let's say the last two, three years was a big step forward. But I keep running. Is
that training that you're doing then, is that oriented towards the ex-Alps or just being fit? And training in general?
No, actually, it start everything when I start to think seriously about the ex-Alps. It was like five, five to six years ago. I decide that I want to take part at the Red Bull X-Alps. And so I start, I start to train as well, my physical condition. So. So, yeah, it was, I start really to push in 2012 and, yeah, now I'm really addicted to train. I really love train.
It is addicting, isn't it? You mentioned when you were kind of coming up through after the World Cup in 2009, you went through a time where you were, you know, racing really fast and also bombing out as well. I want to talk about, talk to you about. I'll talk about the strategy and tactics and, you know, what those lessons taught you. Did you, did you come out of that, you know, frustrated and deciding you had to change some things or was that really just your style? And take me from, take me from the Korean World Cup in 2009 to your win at the Superfinal in Colombia a couple years ago. What, what were the pieces of the puzzle or maybe did you have any kind of aha moments in that, in that time that.
Yeah. Allowed you to, you mentioned the glider, you know, you were on a really good glider at the Superfinal, but, um, were there other things that really kind of fell into place?
Yes. Um, I actually, at the, at the beginning of my career in the competition, I was not, um, really pushing in front. I was more, uh, uh, tactical pilots. Like, uh, I like to be in the, in the group and the gaggle. And check out what the other does and, uh, and, uh, yeah, take like, uh, yeah, the, the, um, the opportunity to check out and to see the line from the other and then find, like, try to get the best out of it. But with this style, it's, uh, you can be really good, but, uh, I was still missing, uh, the, the, um.
Um, to be able to win alone a task, you know, like to, to go in front and keep on going and be in front of the gaggle. So in still in 2009, I was more a gaggle pilot, but, uh, little by little, I, I, I, I know this. I remember that I was happy about my skills because I was able to fly with the best and, uh, and, and stay with them. But I was not able to take the. The, the season to, to go alone and to push to the goal. So in 2010, 2011, I, I set us a goal of mine to, to try to, even if I will bomb out, to take my decision and keep on going and to push in front.
And, uh, yeah, it was of course good. It was sometimes a bit. It's sad because I was on the ground and the people pass me of both, but, uh, these, uh, uh, from these, I learned a lot. And, um, I, I, I think like the best, uh, the, the best pilot is the pilot, which is able to win the task, but at the same time, it's able to fly in the gaggle. And this, it's the mix, which, uh, which, uh, can, which has, uh, the best pilot. Yeah. I'm trying to, to, to, to get on this level. And, uh, yeah, I think now I have kind of, uh, I,
um, yeah, I, I kind of reached this level. Sometimes now my problem is more that I want too much. And so still I bomb out sometime like in the X-Alps, but, uh, uh, well, I have fun. Like when I, when I'm leading. A gaggle or leading, uh, uh, uh, part of the task I have really fun. And so if I, if I then put on a scale, what is more important, if always has a result or having fun, I have to say, I like also to have fun. For example, like last year, it was on the, the best four days of the year.
I was in a competition in Austria. It was the Austrian open. It was an international comp and we have like, uh, every day, one day, 150, one day, 160, one day, 110 kilometer. And I, the first task I bombed, I bombed out, but then I won the second one. And the third one was the longest I did task. It was 160 or 70 case. And I managed to stay in front, uh, 80 kilometer and get alone into. The goal. And that's like, super cool.
Yeah, that's, that's really fun. You mentioned when you and I were training and we're going to get into the X ops a little bit later on for sure. Cause that'll be a fun to talk about. But when you and I were training together for those few days, uh, the spring in, in kind of near your, near where you fly near Murano. Um, you mentioned that your, your longest flight, um, was actually in the 2013 X ops. Your longest free flight was actually in the 2013 X ops of a little over 200. K. Which really surprised me because, um, you know, of course, where you live, you have the opportunity, I know when, with good weather to do big triangles, but how do you, how do you train is I, I would have thought you'd had many, many flights, uh, of that length or much longer.
But I remember you said that, uh, you really, when you free flew, uh, you were training for competitions. You were trying to fly really fast, uh, when you just fly by yourself or maybe with some friends instead. Instead of in a competition. But how do you approach, uh, your free flying versus, uh, competition flying?
Yeah, it's right. Uh, it, his fly was actually till that time, my longest flight because I'm, when I'm at home, I, I fly almost every day when I can, but, um, I, I done till now. I didn't really like to fly big cross country because I prefer like to fly. Small. Small task. I always fly with turn point. I have all over, uh, my, my valleys here, which is like, yeah, around, uh, 60 kilometer to the west and 40 to the east and 30 to the south. These three valleys, I have turn point everywhere. And according to day, I always build a task for me.
And, uh, I try to fly this task as fast as possible. So, uh. Yeah, I like to do this and I think it's, uh, it's really good, um, for, uh, for the competition to fly always task because I put always a start. I put cylinder, I put tricky one. I put some task. I try to fly to say myself, okay, I don't, um, I try to thermal as less as possible or to thermal as much as possible or, uh, like every time I leave a thermal just to fly full. But, uh, I, I, uh, I think a lot of, uh, I played this, uh, uh, a full bar all the time. So I said some rules in my task as well. But, uh, um, I figure it out that, uh, I was missing also this, uh, cross country flight, like this long flight and, uh, because I was always thinking it's important just to be fast.
But I figure it out by the way that, uh, for the ex-alps, I need also to fly, like regular cross country where it's not the most, um, like a maximum, um, uh, not, uh, beginner level flight, not a higher level flight. So important to be always as fast as possible, but it's important also sometimes just to survive and to take it easy. And actually, I started this then after the X-Alps, and I have done some long flight, and then I was in India because it was the World Cup there, and I have done some very nice flight there in beer also cross country one. I have done a 208, 206, and all, but yeah, this India was really cool because I could also push a lot.
I have average of 38, 39 case an hour, so over 200 kilometer for triangle, it was, it was cool when
When you, that is cool. Beer is amazing. That's where I'm very fond of that place. I did kind of some of my first, uh, bigger XC back in 2009 and 2011 is fantastic big mountains with very little wind. It's, it's pretty amazing spot. Yeah, um, when you look back at your career, Aaron, uh, well, maybe two questions. Um, you know, if you could go back and tell your 15-year-old self when your dad gave you the, the wing for the first time to go play by yourself, um, would you have any advice for that, Aaron? And then also, when you look back, uh, this is the second part of that, if there been any, um, there been any times where you've had a hard time playing and you've had a hard time playing and you've had a hard time doing things where you, you know, your training approach has been wrong or there's been, you know, mistakes or wastes of time or wastes of money when you look back, I
Don't think I waste time or money, uh, I could, uh, for sure have done better, but I think, uh, all in all, it was not bad. Uh, this was something which my father, um, actually forced me fly, um, every year. I mean, he got, he gave me the first year DHV1, and then, uh, the next year I was flying really a lot on these, and then the next year I got DHV1 to 2, and then the year after DHV2. And like people, which was flying much less than me, after one year was already flying the DHV2, and after two years they was already on competition glider.
And at the time for me was I really wanted also to, to, to get on the competition glider fast, but I think that was really the good point of my father, which let me do everything step by step. Because in the end, uh, yeah, like most of the guys, which start with me and after two season was already flying, uh, uh, more demanding glider, some of them stop and some other didn't ever reach the level which I had. Because when I was changing the glider, I, the glider I had, it was really a toy for me. So like at the beginning, I remember all the time when I was finished my flight and I still have some altitude above the landing, I was doing like spinning, collapses, stall, spiral, negative, everything.
And this gave me like a super good feeling about the glider. And, uh, yeah, back then I start also, uh, acro, and, um, I think, I think it was really good. I think somehow my father never gave me, like, he was never really a coach, but from behind he, uh, showed me the, the somehow the, the a good way, and I am happy for it.
How many, how many hours would you say you fly a year? Do you keep track? I
Don't know exactly, but I think at the beginning I was flying for sure, around 300 hours, 350 hours a year, do
You think it's still up that high? I
think I'm flying, maybe even more now
That's fantastic. If you ever had kind of a lull, obviously you're super passionate about it, um, and you're—you can see it in your eyes. But I think it's still up that high. I think I'm flying maybe even more now because I've always loved that about you, how much you love flying. But have you ever had kind of a—have you ever had either an accident or a time in your career where you've had to really back off, or you haven't really had the—it hasn't given you the joy, or you've had to maybe refine the passion?
Not really. I have a low point in 2006 or five... uh, let me think, 2006? No, 2007 because... but yeah, I think, uh, just because the glider I was flying, because I was flying a prototype of Nova, which was really bad. It was kind of, uh, I don't want to say dangerous, but it was not that safe for sure, and it was also not performing well. And, uh, the the the combination of the two things, it was, uh, the result was that I was really bad in the competition because actually, since the beginning, I was always successful.
I start with really small competition, but I win it, and then I go on a little bit bigger competition, and I win it. And then in two seven, I, I have really like a few competition where I was doing really bad. I was out of the competition, but, uh, then, um, yeah, then it's, it's turned to be super because like Hannes Papisch, the designer, made a glider which was fantastic. It was like amazing cool. At the time, I was not that good, but I think if that glider was in the hands of a good pilot, he could have won. Uh, it was maybe as good as Krieger One, but, uh, I was flying on it, and I remember very well when I got it.
It was, uh, I was with, uh, Tony Bender in Aachen, say in Austria, and, uh, Hannes told us, uh, well, we have to put the line on it, and then he sent us up with the cable car, and he say to me, "Okay, Aaron, if you want to fly with this glider first, you have to show me that you are able to fly on it. So now you go up and you make me like asymmetric collapse, front collapse, and stall and spin." And it was very funny because I go up with Hannes with Tony Bender, and we, he took off first. He go out and he made the first asymmetric collapse, and he did almost a tumbling, and then like twist and big shit, and I was like shaking.
I was thinking, "Fuck, now it's my time." So I did it, and, uh, yeah, I, I don't know if I can explain in English, but at the time I was having this, um, wind sensor which was hanging down. You know what I mean? It's like Okay, so I don't know why I was so stupid that even by doing collapse I have it, so I did the first collapse and the glider like shoot a lot and I was trying to keep the shoot. It was really going for a tumble almost, and when I'm super focused to stop the glider, I got this, uh, air calculator into the eyes and I was thinking, "What the fuck
it was?" Yeah, kind of very funny situation, but at the same time I was like, "Oh my god, I'm very scary." But yeah, in the end, I, I catch the glider and then I did the front and I did the storm, then I land and Hannes told me, "Okay, then you can fly with this glider." And, uh, yeah, right after I go to Slovenia for the Slovenian championship, and it was also very useful this competition because on the very first task I was in Slovenia, you fly a lot on the reach, you push on the reach. And uh, I was, uh, yeah, I was on the reach with the super glider, and I remember very well that a girl passed me—a girl, I think, from Poland or Czech, some, I don't know—and she was flying on a two to three, and she passed me, and I was thinking, "No way!" And yeah, but from that, I learned really to push the bar, and in the end of the competition, I make a podium, and uh, yeah, from that competition, after I becomes one of the fastest pilot in the speed bar, and the next competition was in Italy, and then I won my first
task in the in the Italian national, so it was very funny how much, but otherwise I never has really accident by flying. I have true rescue just by acro, by acro I have used maybe five or six rescue. Actually, one was really, really ugly. I fall into the glider by training infinity at the really beginning when I was learning infinity tumbling. I, I fall into the canopy and, uh, but yeah, luckily I get out from the canopy and I could throw my rescue. Otherwise, in cross country, I never threw rescue and I never has really accident except of last year.
I had a really stupid accident by landing with a with a which is a a glider, so it's no fault of the glider at all. It, it was anything jet dangerous, but I was climbing on a glacier, uh, next to to the place where I'm living, Ortler, and uh, I couldn't start from the very top. On the very top, it's not so steep, but I have to walk down because it was in the fog and I didn't have GPS or compass, anything. And I walked down and I took off from a very steep slope, so I decided to keep my crampons on. And then when I was flying, I was still thinking to take out my crampons, but at the same time, I have more than 2000 meters above the the valley floor, so I was, uh, anyway, thinking to to fly some helicopter and misty flip.
And so I think, okay, then maybe it's better I keep my crampons on because if I will take it out, I will have to put in my jacket. And then I was thinking if It's gonna never happen, but if something happened that I have to throw the rescue, I don't want to fall with the rescue and the crampons in the jacket. No, so I keep my my crampons on and I fly my misty and hailey just in basic acro and I go for landing and I just land kind of normal, but uh, it was um, it was a field with grass and the crampons get stuck into the grass and the next step like take turn and broke my ankle and twist the ankle and broke the ligaments and the
fibula bones. So it was really an ugly accident, it was super painful, it was super bad, but just for nothing. Just I, I, if if I will have put more attention, it will never happen because after I have two surgery and I have to keep these gifts for, uh, six week, and then I was flying with the with the crutches and taking off on one leg and bending on the back. So yeah, I mean, if I will have put the same attention as I have put after, it will never happen. It was just that I didn't put enough attention. Oh, good, but a good lesson kind of
Unlucky, but a good lesson, I guess. Yeah, like they all are. Um, how did you become a Red Bull athlete? When did that happen, and how did that come about? Yeah,
It was like, uh, in 2013 I was, uh, uh, yeah, I have won the World Cup and it was my first year of X-Alps, so I got in touch with the Red Bull, um, actually with the Red Bull Italy, because, uh, they, they was, uh, they need, um, an athlete to, to go to the, to the conference, to the press conference in Italy with the journalists to explain the comps and to, yeah, to, to, to, to talk about, uh, the, the flying and the competition. So I get in touch with them and
That was, uh, late spring, uh, then I have the X-Alps where I was doing kind of okay. I have like a very up and down race, like, uh, yeah, uh, I was at the beginning good, then I was not so good, then I did really well, and in the end I fucked up again. But, uh, yeah, somehow they, they, they, they was happy with, uh, did with that what I do and with the overall, um, um, overall, uh, package of me with the speed riding and the cross country comps and the X-Alps as well.
So they decided to sponsor me and, yeah, like this was about everything is
There pressure, or have things changed for you in either a positive or negative way? Uh, either through social media desires, obviously, when you're sponsored, you have to put things out to your fan base, but also for the companies that sponsor you, they want that attention. Have you found that that's has had any change in your, um, either passion for the sport or the way you approach it? Is there is there any negative side to the sponsorship?
Um, I can't, I can't see a negative side actually. I remember the first, uh, ray, the first comp I did with the Red Bull log on my glider, it was in Venezuela. It was a pre-world cup, and there I felt a little bit like, kind of not really pressure, but like, oh wow, now I have, I have to be good. Everybody expected I will be good, right? But I did, I did also good. And after that comp, I, I, I, yeah, it was just the very first comp where I have this, uh, Red Bull log on my glider and the helmet and everything. It was, it was feeling bit strange, but now I can see just positive side like, I, thanks to the Red Bull, uh, sponsor that I'm Red Bull athlete, I get other sponsor because the biggest thing of Red Bull is once you have, you are a Red Bull athletes, you have a lot of visibility, so it's easy to get other sponsors as well.
And that's give me the chance to really be focused on what I, what I want to do and to train more and to fly less than them. I don't do ski structure anymore, which I was doing before till, uh, there I was a Red Bull athletes. I was working all winter as ski instructor and just after the lessons I was skitouring myself or taking like three hours to go speed riding and then do lessons again. And now I can just, uh, I have much more time, I can train much more and I can see just positive aspect actually, no
That's, that's really cool. Well, take me back to the Superfinal that you won in Columbia, when you—that, when you became the world champion. Um, what, what was your approach going into that race? Where do you like to be mentally? Or what was your, um, obviously you went into that race hoping you'd win, but, um, you know, because Superfinals are very long, 12 days. We had perfect weather. We flew almost every day. Um, you know, there were the fire issues that year, but other than that, the flying was, was pretty ideal. But how do you, how do you stay consistent? How do you approach—was your approach at the Superfinal still to just win tasks and go really hard, or was it more to gaggle fly and, and, um, you take, take me through kind of your headspace that, that week, or those two weeks, actually?
Yeah.
It was, um, the tactic, it was a bit a mix of everything. I according the task and the condition, I was, uh, trying, uh, to to figure it out what it's gonna happen. So if I felt it's gonna be a task where I have to push, I tried to push. If I felt it was a task where it's better to be more conservative and fly with the with the group, I did it. So everything was working pretty well already from the beginning. When I got there, I got there three days before the comp and I realized immediately that my glider was really good and, uh, that's, uh, I start to fly around the road Danilo some task and
I, I was flying with a smile because the glider was good, and I was pushing full bar everywhere, and I always find a thermal to to climb, so I felt like I can't bomb out in that place. And so, already from the very beginning, I felt, uh, really confident. And then, by the way, during the comp, um, I was keeping cool and having fun. Like, after the the task, I went every day running to to train, and at the same time to to don't think about the pressure, because already after the second task, I was first or second, and I keep like the podium all all the comps.
Till the end, I start well, and I keep on going well. And so, I went every day running. After running, I have dinner; I eat like usual, super a lot. And, uh, I, I find like a kind of routine and, um, it was going everything easy actually till the very last day because, uh, actually with the calculation we did, I have won the Superfinal already before the last task because I have, uh, in, in front of the second, but then everything fall down on the last task because, uh, on the briefing before the last task, they give me zero point of the task before because they said that I was flying in the fire, which was not, and I know I can prove it, but still, I, I was starting for the, for the last task with zero point of the previous one, so I was still first, but I, I couldn't do any mistake and, uh, yeah, that was really ugly there.
I was feeling really under super pressure and I was thinking, okay, now I will fucked up everything I have done the perfect comps and then now I will, I will do for sure a shit, but, uh, actually like the first half of the task, I was, I was in the leading group and I was flying well and then I did a small mistake which becomes, uh, it follow with bigger and bigger mistake and I remember very well like I have to go after being in the mountain out in the flat, and I was like a thousand meter lower than the first group, which was maybe 30 pilots, and they start to go in the flat, and I know it that I can't start that I have to do to climb, but I start, and I was thinking, okay, when I did it, I was thinking at the same time, okay, you, you are done, he will bomb out for sure now.
And then it was very nice because, um, Thomas Browner at the time was next to me, and he know it that I'm going to to bomb out, and he push like full bar in front of me, and he find a thermal for me. I thermal this thermal, and I know, and I say myself, okay, now I'm in this thermal, and I have to climb as much as I can, and I stay in this thermal just a little bit as long the thermal was strong. And then without that I want it, I leave the thermal, and I go again, and Thomas saw me again, and he again push him full bar and search another thermal for me, and he find it, and I went in that thermal, and with that thermal I catch up the the first group.
And then in the end, I, I fly, uh, I was not top 10, like 15 or something like this, but anyway enough to win. But then in the really end, they also give me back my point, so then it was fine, but it was, uh, really sketchy boy.
I hope you got some beers for Thomas. That was a—that was a nice move. It's good to have friends on, on course. That's fantastic. Um, so tell me, after you win a Superfinal like that, and you—you mean there really isn't, uh, in terms of competition other than the World Championships, the, uh, um, a greater thing to win? How do you—how do you go from there? And what, uh, um, did—did you come out of that, uh, still just as hungry and for the next one, or did you kind of take a break and go, "Hey, well, I've—I'm the World Champion." Um, what—what, where do you go from there? Oh,
Well, uh, right after it was the X-Alps, and so I was really hungry for the X-Alps. I really want to do it well in, uh, already the previous six Alps, and still, I, I keep my, my, my motivation for, for compete. I, I didn't, I didn't stop or slow it down. I'm still like super pushing, and, uh, obviously, yeah, it's the fact in the last two years I didn't have won anything big, but I think that's the reason is because, uh, now, um, sometime I want too much, like we said before, I win with style or be in front and push in front all the time.
So what I really need, it's like to find my balance, like I had on that Superfinal, and, uh, yeah, the, on, on the first X-Alps, I think I couldn't have won because, uh, I didn't have the experience. It was, uh, it was, uh, it was really not possible for me to win. And these X-Alps, that the one which you took part as well, I, I, I think I was really well prepared, but, uh, um, uh, combination of fact, it's it didn't work really from the beginning for me, already from the pro logo, and, uh, after the, the first day it was fucked up, and the second day was fucked up, and then I did a little bit good.
till almost Monaco, where I could still be third, and then I fucked up again 10 kilometers before the goal. So, but I, I still don't find exactly the reason in myself why. I, I think because, uh, yeah, like the, the very last day, I think I, I just, I just see it with, uh, um, like my, my consideration of the, the final glide, it was just wrong. So it was one, it was a mistake of my and the first and the second day, it was a combination of a bit bad luck and bad instrument I had.
So, yeah, that's the reason which I find out
That, that Garmin hosed us on day two. You and I both had a really bad day; I had a worse day than you. Luckily, you, you got out of that spot, but holy cow, that was a bad day for me. Yeah, tell me, will you, will you do the xops again? Yeah.
For sure, yeah. I mean, I, I, I really dream now to win this competition, so I'm really focused to train more and to prepare better and to, to, to try to don't do the mistake I have done this year and two years ago. And maybe, I mean, the the World Cup, I took me in the end, uh, four years to win. So four years I took, uh, took part on the World Cup and on the fourth year I managed to win. So now, actually, I have done just two xops, so yeah, I have at least two more at
least two more, yeah, we might as well do it while we're healthy, isn't it? It sure is a blast. Um, that, that the last night, or the the night I got into the day I got into Monaco, and that night we sat around, uh, with with Petio Joe, and I, I was like, "Oh my god, this is going to be a lot of fun," and in Guschlbauer, and um, we all had some pretty scary stories. I was so elated, and my feet were so mangled, I wasn't really thinking that, well, that night anyway, but I was so elated to be there. I'd kind of, uh, forgotten about or just the the risk and the danger, um, but I remember you had some, you and Onda had had a pretty serious situation, uh, somewhere around the Col du Galibier in France, um, and I, I'm actually been working on a book about the ex-Alps, and that, that takes a big part in the book, um, but I remember you being really quite upset.
I, I've seen you fly when we were training last spring. I saw you fly in some really rowdy conditions, uh, it was. I think of myself as a pretty, I'm not a very risk adverse pilot, but that was, I didn't want to take off that day, and you did happily, um, so I know you don't mind flying and in very rowdy and rough conditions, but um, what have you thought about or how do you process the risk of the ex-Alps, um, you know, as you know, I'm going to add a little bit more here. I spent quite a bit of time with Will Gadd on a film project with Red Bull last year, and he did the first ex-Alps, and he's always talking about having an acceptable margin for error, and he, he hated the ex-Alps, he, he just despised it because, uh, it forced him to
Go beyond that, he was not living with an acceptable margin, uh, on on some of the days, some of the days just forces you, I think, especially to be in the top 10, it forces you to um, push beyond where you would normally be willing to fly. Um, how are you? Is that how you feel about the ex-Alps? Did you sometimes push it too far? Um, and how have you kind of resolved that going forward and into the next one? Yeah.
Like, uh, that day on the Alibier, it start, actually, I start in Chamonix. That day, it was also a day where I fly 200 k's and, uh, when I start in Chamonix till Annecy, it was really great flying. It was really nice, uh, nice condition, just normal, just thermaling strong, pushing thermaling strong, pushing. It was fine. Then I land, um, in Annecy, I took off again. I crossed the lake to the the valley to Albertville. There, it was also kind of difficult because it was kind of weak and we still didn't feel the the strong wind and the the wind start, uh, uh, just before the Galibier pass and, uh, but still before we crossed the Galibier pass, it was, uh, kind of okay.
We could like, uh, soar the the the North Northwest side, um, and, um, and then like jumping once it was higher, jumping to the next reach
The problem was, after the Galibier, in the valley, in the Brianson Valley, was around 60 k's of wind, and on the pass, it was also like 60 k's of wind. And um, actually, we did like, because I was with the two French there, and we did like two reaches. We was like kind of it, it was not really soaring like before the reach. We, we turned like, uh, by headwind, and then we was like flying backwards. And then when we was getting next to the reach, we, we get kind of wave, and so there we was climbing, and on the top of the way, we turn and we go for the next reach.
So it was kind of wave or soaring wave kind of this strange thing, and it was working actually very well till, uh, two reaches was fine, and then the third one, I, I turn again headwind, but I didn't climb. I, I was just flying backwards and a lot, and, uh, and I was, and I was suspected to climb, but I, I never climbed, and I was just flying back next to the cliff, the big really a huge cliff, and, and then when I was kind of 100 meter before, uh, I think a kind of very strong thermal or kind of dust devil or something start and my glider by just straight fly start to spin, and then I have spinning on the left or right, I don't remember.
I make like one turn like in a mixer, and I stopped the glider. I was again headwind, and then it start immediately spinning from the other side, then I stop it again. I keep in a kind of tail slide. I let the glider fly, and then I was like maybe 20 or 30 meters next to the cliff, and then it comes a next gust which like just take me and threw me up with the glider was like 90 degrees next to me. I was in a kind of wing over, but somehow climbing, and it lift me up and then it uh shooted me down on the on the lee side.
So in that situation, for sure, I was kind of good to keep the glider open, but I felt I don't have I don't have the control of of what I'm doing. I'm just a leaves in us in a in a strong wind, you know? And yeah, that's make me feel really small, and and that was the thing which scared me the most because so and so I was like, "Oh my god, what am I supposed to do? I have to do this, you know?" You know, I'd be felt like this and the power, which was there, it was way bigger than me. And what? That's what I can... I can't control this. And then I was in the lee side there. I was flying with the wind like 100, 10, 120 k's an hour and having like big collapse and then reopening the glider, then climbing super a lot, then sinking super a lot.
And there I felt okay. Now I have really enough and, uh, yeah, the point was I felt really, uh, that's it's... I'm nobody there. I'm just trying to keep open my glider and to save my life. And then I actually want to land, but, uh, I... I called my supporter and they told me no way to land because in the valid 60 k's of god and it's like horrible, so I have to to keep on flying, and yeah, that that was probably one of the hardest moment ever of my life because I I didn't felt that I want to be in the air, in the air I didn't felt I I'm I I I have pleasure to to fly, you know, but uh sounds terrifying.
Yeah, it was pretty terrible, but yeah, I don't know, somehow I don't know how I I I already right after I arrive in Monaco I kind of I it's not that I forget, but uh yeah, the the adventure was so big and I don't know I have immediately the feeling, okay, if it's gonna start in one week again I will start it, you know, that's
So funny is, I was the exact same way, you know, that that night when I went to the airport, I was like, "Oh my god, I'm gonna fly to bed." I was, I was helped out by taking quite a bit of oxycodone for my feet, so I definitely was not all with it, and I hadn't really drank much at all for the whole, you know, nine months of training, so I had a couple beers with you guys that too. So I was, I was definitely, uh, you know, feeling the elation from that as well, but I went to bed that night thinking, "I don't think this is a really reasonable amount of risk." I'm not sure if I do this again, and then the next morning I was just, I would have just started again. It's, it's, it's a phenomenal adventure, isn't it? It's really, it's kind of like the, uh, I like what I, like what Hansa said at some time during the race, he said it was the perfect game, and I, I've been comparing it, um, and for this book I've been writing, I was, I was, I did a bunch of research on kind of the quote-unquote hardest and toughest adventure races in the world, and I think where the, the X-Ops really stands alone is the, uh, is most of these hardest or toughest that there are is, is really a matter of physical training and putting your head down and just doing it, and where the, where's the X-Ops certainly has that in spades, but it also has this element of, of chess.
It has this element of real strategy and, and you know, like you said, it's what, what killed me early on was, was racing, you know, it's so much better to stay in the air and go slow than it is to, to go fast and bomb out. It's just a totally different kind of strategy and tactic that I, I really enjoy it. Really is the perfect game, isn't it?
Yeah, it is so.
You'll do it again, and how, how will you approach, um, you know, you've had two really good results, but how, how will you go about beating Chrigel the next time around? How, what do you, what did you learn? What will you take forward? What will you change? One...
point is, uh, it's the where I really have to work. It's the the the instrument, uh, part navigate myself on the ground, which was the the reason why we fucked up the second day. And I think if we will not have such a bad day the second day, the the the all competition could have been way different, yeah? Because, uh, that day it was not only the the fact that we arrive a little bit later on the takeoff, but it was also that I felt really, really, uh, exhausted because it was warm, we didn't have enough water, we didn't have enough food, and I think we went flying like maybe 30 percent of our um, uh, brain power, you know?
Yeah, and, uh, I think that was that was really one one big, uh, fact which, uh, make our my one and your x helps really tough, yeah.
Yeah, hard to start off, start off with such a bad day after having such a good day in the evening. I, I learned a lot from you that day. You know, when we got that launch, you really slowed down and ate, and I was so furious that, you know, Vichy and and Stanislav had caught ups and and already taken off. I was, I was just rushing, and that's the biggest lesson for me is to not rush. I should really, should have waited for you. We should have worked together and and I, I ended up flying. I did try to work with you when we got to that next, uh, ridge line, but I was again rushing too much.
Yeah, yeah, this was, I mean, instrument and navigation on the ground. It's one point where I have for sure to, to be better me not during the comp, but on the preparation. And I think it's really important to have good internet connection, so I, I will, uh, I will try to, to have either better internet or to have really proof, uh, offline maps, which, uh, it can navigate me. Uh, well, that's one point. And, uh, uh, then from the flying side, um, I think, uh, I, I have to fly more cross country in the way of, uh, okay, the day it's like 10 hours or five hours, I have to fly not exactly the fastest, but like to use the 10 hours and, uh, that will bring me more far.
And to do this, I have to, to fly more cross country and a little bit, uh, uh, try to, to, to get really as far as possible and to use every, every small time we have in the air. So next year and in two years, I will fly a little bit more cross country. And uh, then, uh, yeah, another point is, I think, uh, um, I will try to fly in, uh, different places with, uh, stronger condition to train in, uh, windy condition and, uh, um, to get more used to this, uh, condition which we had this year, but I'm already doing this, but most of the time in my area, which I know very well, sure.
But I think it's, uh, it's very important to do this in area where you don't know, which I don't know so well, because then you have to think more and to think more about the air, how it's moving around the mountain and how it's gonna be there and there and where it's the lee and where it's the roof and where maybe, maybe it's going to be less wind and how to use more the wind to get where you have to get. Because I think it's a big difference to do this at home. a place where you don't know, because at home I, I'm just caring more or less about holding the glider in really turbulent, in uh, turbulent condition, but in other place I have to think to hold the glider, but also to think where I have to fly, which at home I don't have to do it because I'm flying 15 years here you
know it, you know it. On that, um, on that note, there was—I put out a thing right before we started talking to the on Facebook, if anybody had any questions for you. One of the, uh, respondents was, "What was your favorite? What's your favorite place to fly outside of competitions? Do you have a favorite site?"
Yeah, luckily, it's exactly where I'm living. Fantastic.
You live in an amazing place. That was... it was quite cool, too, that Marano was basically right on course line, so it was. I spent quite a bit of time there this spring, and you live in a really amazing place to fly, yeah.
I, I think so, because in the place where I live, I have the chance to fly high mountain and glacier stuff, and then just high mountain without glacier, and then there is also a high plateau, which is a kind of flat and it's small, but it's like a bit less than 20k, so I can also train kind of, uh, flying just the cloud, cloud street, and, uh, uh, yeah, like flying morass in a flatland. So it's, I love where I live. That's
Great, it's nice to love where you live. That, that's half the battle, isn't it? Um, so looking more also at the, at the X-Alps, is there afterwards the organization, uh, asked all of us if there's anything they could do, uh, you know, are there any needed changes? Are there any, anything they can do to make it safer? Do you have any disappointments with the X-Alps, or anything that you feel should be changed? I
Think long about it, also with my supporter, and I think you can't make this race safe. Uh, the only thing which maybe could be, it's, uh, like, uh, to to prolong a little bit the resting time, this could make it a little bit more safe. I think it's a little bit more safe, I think it's a little bit more safe, but that's all. Like, during the race, it was sometimes I think twice we got the message like, yeah, tomorrow or today, it's gonna be super strong wind and, uh, don't fly, or it doesn't make sense. I mean, this kind of, on this kind of competition, you can't forbid and flying, no.
So, yeah, I don't think it's, it's really, it's always up to the pilot in the end, yeah.
I agree. The only thing I really thought and and maybe this was the this the shape I was in when I got there, I don't know, but I I didn't, I did not enjoy the last 100k, um, from a danger perspective. I, you know, I trained in southern France, uh, for maybe a week back in May and actually had quite similar conditions. It was very windy and really strong, uh, valley wind, especially for that early in the year. I think it was a big high pressure system and I I really didn't enjoy that part of the course, I think, especially because we get there when we're really exhausted, um, and then I really didn't enjoy Monaco. I I felt like the pay was a was a really dusty, dirty, you know, I mean, you're looking out at the ocean. I get it, I understand why they bring us there, you know, from a marketing standpoint, but I think it would have been so glorious, or it would be so glorious to end in a place like San Andre or Annecy or somewhere where
where paragliding's a big deal, you know? Uh, I felt like Monaco was... it was a real, real deflating end, I think, for the athletes. I, I again, I get it from the marketing standpoint, it's cool to go to the ocean, but, uh, wow, there's... there's nobody there, no one cares, no one, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I
know what you mean? Yeah, it's kind of sad. I'm not for me this year, you know? I, I already know it. How is it?
More, the first year, okay? Right, you start in Monaco, uh, you start in Salzburg in Austria. It's, it's amazing. Like years ago, it was even much more because we was walking a bit more in Austria, and I have plenty of people coming to me, bring me like power bars, uh, doing part of the, the route with me by walking or by bicycle, and it was really nice. You, you felt like, uh, the people, it's following and, uh, they, they, they look at you as a hero. It's really nice. And, uh, in Monaco, you get there and, yeah, it's nothing.
It's, it's really, it's really nothing. Nobody care, like you said. Yeah, but from the other side, you know, like, I know this race since the beginning because I was a small kids, actually, on the very first Six Alps, um, and, uh, this idea, Salzburg to Monaco, it's still very strong, you know? So, yeah.
It is a special line for sure. I just boy that last, that last leg is tough. I know you guys, the three of you, flew a good portion of it. I did about 110k on the ground. It was miserable, but it was, uh, it was, uh, yeah, it's just tough down there. The, the, you there's so few places to land. It's so narrow. It's, it's a really challenging place. I mean,
I call this valley with my girlfriend the horror valley, yeah.
Exactly, it was so bad this
Year, I could fly. I mean, I fly it. Also, two years ago, almost all the way to, to Monaco, but uh, yeah, it's, it's very scary. Like, you watch down and you know that you can't land, and it's nothing to land. It's strong wind. It's like two years ago after the Labonet Pass, I land at four o'clock, or three o'clock with huge thunderstorm flying backwards at 2300 meters and, uh, yeah, it was really horror this year. I was more lucky from the flying side, uh, point, because it was like, probably, yeah, um, a part of the first day, uh, the
the best day, uh, but uh, anyway, when you fly there, it's super scary, yeah.
Yeah, it certainly is, certainly is scary. Well, Aaron, I, I really appreciate this. We've, uh, we've hit our hour and then some. I don't want to take any more of your time. That's a, that's a good place to end. But before we do, um, why don't you give a shout out to your, your sponsors? And then, uh, you know, for, for people that, uh, like following what you're doing, uh, how can, how can people get a hold of you? Where, where can they find you? Oh,
Well, I'm pretty active on my social media on the on the Facebook.
Um, yeah, or uh, on the every now and then, it's get some update, uh, of my projects on the Red Bull page, uh, under our on the Rogatti. Like next year, I will have a very interesting project, which is still kind of secret, but yeah, they will see soon. Keep
An eye out for that, and then, uh, what about your sponsors? Why don't you just give a shout to them? And, and, uh, and then we'll sign off, yeah.
Well, I'm very, very glad to have, uh, the sponsor I have. I'm sponsored by, by the Red Bull, as we thought before. Then I have, um, this, um, Saliva as a mountaineering equipment and Dina Fit, because, uh, I, I'm doing also a lot of skiing and speed riding. And, uh, a big sponsor of my, which, which was kind of from the beginning, together with Gin, of course, which, uh, sponsored me already since 2009. It's, uh, Zype, Dr. Zype, which is a Swedish, uh, brand of sunglasses and ski goggles, and they are really cool guys. And, yeah, I'm really thankful to have all of them.
Great.
Cool. Well, Aaron, thank you very much. I really appreciate it. Thanks for your time. I think, uh, folks are gonna love that. We'll get this out, uh, early next week, but happy holidays and, uh, good talking to you, buddy. Good.
Thank you very much; it was a pleasure.
i
Hope you enjoyed that. I certainly did. Always great to spend some time with such a great character in our sport. Uh, Aaron has, uh, really been dominating out there, and it's, it's fun to get his insights. Uh, as always, all we ask for is a buck a show. If you got something out of that, or you liked it, or you liked one of the previous shows, I can certainly recommend some others for you. Uh, Nate Scales, uh, is fantastic. Jeff Shapiro is fantastic. They're all great, but, uh, go back and check some of those out if you haven't gotten a chance. I just did one recently with Tom de Dorlodot. Fantastic. Uh, but yeah, if you go to our website, cloudbasemayhem.com, you can see in each of the podcasts there's a little donate button. Send us a buck if you liked it, if you got something out of it. Really appreciate it. And also, if you could, uh, if you listen to us on iTunes or Stitcher or some other way, if you could give us a rating, that, that goes a long ways.
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