I remember one in Aspen, one of the later comps in Aspen, I think, where there was an embedded thunderstorm over the divide between there and Crested Butte, and so kind of the whole weed gaggle got stuck in a gust front, and I'd remembered Robbie Whittall talking about how you shouldn't do big ears, and so I remember being very amused to look down and see Robbie Whittall right under me doing big ears.
Well, hello there. Welcome to another episode of the Cloudbase Mayhem Podcast, a little prelude there of things to come from the Josh Bot. Before we get into this, I wanted to just thank all of you, number one, for your generosity and your donations. I really appreciate that, but also just for the feedback, and hopefully these are getting better and better. I really appreciate the feedback, one of which was that people didn't like to be getting a little prelude from the show before. That was confusing, so I'll try to do that either on the current show or a show in the future going forward. Josh Cohn, this is a pretty exciting episode. It was really cool to sit down with Josh Cohn. He is by far and away the U.S.'s most winningest competition pilot we've ever had, just by far and away. Reading his CV is kind of like reading Kelly Slater's in the surfing world.
He started flying when he was 16, started dominating soon after that. He's been at it a long time, from PWC wins to TAS wins at Worlds. He's twice national champion in the U.S., and we dig into how that's possible. How has he retained the passion for it after all these years? How has he been safe? What he's thinking about currently about CCC gliders and banning open class and where we are with all of that. We talk about what happened with the two big accidents in the Sierras back in September at Nationals. We talk about technique. We talk about all kinds of things. One of the things I really wanted to delve in with Josh was just how he can be so consistent.
We get into that. If you think it's all just training and being really aware, it's actually beyond that for Josh. As you can imagine, he has studied psychology. As we all know, psychology is a very big aspect of this sport. The concept of bringing it that Bill Belcourt talked about in the first episode. We talk about his mentors along the way. This is just a fantastic show. I think you're really going to dig this. Whether you're an expert, or you're just wanting to fly big lines, or you're wanting to get into comps, or whatever level you're at, I think you're going to get a lot out of this talk with Josh. Without further ado, Josh Cohn.
Josh Cohn, how are you? It's good to have you on the show.
Hey, Gavin. Nice talking to you.
What have you been up to lately? I saw you a couple weeks ago out at the Nationals in the Sierras. It's pretty action-packed. Have you been flying since?
I haven't been, actually. No. I was at the USPA board meeting recently, but it's been kind of the off-season lately. Days are getting pretty short.
Sure. We've got some interesting things going on with insurance that we might get into later on. Just to give some background, because I don't even know it. I searched around and found, and you actually sent them over to me, all your results. It's incredible. You're like the Kelly Slater of our sport, man. This is amazing. Nine wins. You won the PWC in Chelan in 2010. You've been national champion, I believe, twice. Is that right?
I think so, yeah. It's a little confusing with these national series recently, but definitely once. I'm not totally sure about the second time. I got the idea of keeping a competition CV some years back when I was rooming with Bruce Goldsmith at a World Cup in Mexico. He mentioned that he kept one. I was like, oh, that's a good idea. You could easily forget this stuff otherwise.
Yeah. You can certainly forget it when you've had the career and the length of the career that you've had. You started flying when you were 16. Is that right?
Yeah, that's right. Pretty soon after I got my driver's license.
Excellent. What was the impetus there? What was the catalyst that got you into flying?
I remember reading about it in a ski magazine. Okay. The article said, The article mentioned two schools in the whole country. I was scheming to get up to one. The closest one it listed was in Seattle. I was actually in touch with them, but it never quite worked out. Then I just happened to go to an outdoor expo in San Francisco, where I lived. There was a local school there that had a booth and a show special. I got started out that way.
What was it about flying when you were 16? I'd seen paragliding a lot because I spent a lot of time in Seattle. A good friend of mine lived at the base of Tiger and was always begging me to get into it. I completely avoided it for 10 years because it actually didn't look that exciting to me. I kept hearing about all the accidents. What was it? Of course, then I got into it and I discovered it was amazing. What was it that really pulled you to it from the magazine article or from when you saw it the first time?
I guess it was kind of similar to... What Mads was describing in a recent podcast, where I always used to have flying dreams. In these dreams, I would tend to kind of start out realizing that I could take bigger and bigger steps on the sidewalk. Then I could flap my arms and kind of extend it and eventually be flapping around.
I don't know. It just seemed like a natural thing that I wanted to do.
Interesting. Did it kind of grab you right from the start?
Pretty much. I started rock climbing around the same time. Where I went to college in Colorado Springs, there was really better rock climbing around there than paragliding.
Just in terms of my friends at the time, I tended to go climbing more in college. Then afterwards, during those summers, I spent some time in Aspen and did my first competition. I started getting more into it.
Your first competition was then... How old were you at the Aspen comp?
Let's see. 22, I think.
22. Okay. Then I just got off the phone with Nick. One of the first questions he wanted me to ask you was... He would really like you to talk about your task win at the Worlds. He thought you were like 18, so you must have been a little bit older than that in Granada. Then tie that into an incident with a bus and MADS.
Okay. Let's see. The task win at the Worlds was the 97 Worlds in Castejon, in the Pyrenees.
That was kind of funny because I was on a ProDesign glider, which was a little bit of a minority brand. Okay. There were only two or three of us, I think, in that Worlds there. I was with the lead gaggle as we were just coming around the corner of the mountain back toward goal.
We were all too high for goal because we'd had to come around the corner of the mountain. In those days, there was a maximum goal altitude because you had numbers. We didn't have GPS, and so the goal crew had to be able to read your numbers. You had to get down to... Yeah....within 500 feet of the ground to make goal. It turned out that my glider got a worse glide at top speed. That allowed me to just stomp full bar and not have to pull big ears or anything like everyone else was and win the task. It was a little bit unfair, but afterwards, Robbie Whittall was talking about how they should maybe think about installing a plummet button in their gliders also.
What's the story with the bus?
Yeah. That was the Worlds in Montalegre.
No, no, no. It was in Sierra Nevada in southern Spain. Yeah, Granada.
It was a really interesting flying site. They would be launching it 10,000 or 12,000 feet or something, really high up on this ski area, and then landing down in the valley at almost sea level. It was really warm. Yeah. It was really warm down there, so one day we had landed down in this dusty field, and a bunch of pilots had gotten on the bus, and it was super hot, and we were just getting a bit impatient, and the bus driver was nowhere to be seen, and so Mads took it upon himself to get the bus driver's attention, so he walked up to the front of the bus and kind of just like...
...kind of pounded a little bit....on the windshield, knocked on it with his palm, but there must have been a hairline crack in it or something, because it caused a big, big crack across the windshield of the bus, so then the bus driver was pissed, and there was kind of a standoff in the entrance of the bus, and eventually no one got hurt, but I think there was a little bit of legal trouble. Some
legal trouble. Did Mads go to jail?
No, no.
And so, what drew you to competitions, like back in Aspen? So if you were 22, you'd been flying five or six years then, I guess? Is that when you first got into the first comp?
Yeah, that's about right.
And what was it that kind of drew you to that? Because it seems like, you know, in reading your CV on flying, I mean, I know that you also chase distance and records. You've got three records on here. The U.S. record in 97 in Hobbs of 173 miles, which is a long way back then in 97 on those gliders. You've got another one, another couple in Texas, 192 miles. So, you know, I know you like to get after it and go big and not just fly comps, but what was it about, you know, we all refer to you and, you know, all the U.S. pilots will know this, but maybe everybody doesn't know. We call you the Josh Bot. You're just so incredibly consistent. And so we're going to get into your tactics and strategy here in a little bit, but tell me about those early days of competition flying and just why, what drew you to them?
So I was in Aspen flying tandems and teaching, and the U.S. Nationals was being organized there. And so I got to, you know, I got to meet some of the comp pilots who'd come to train for it. And I guess, you know, decided I might as well enter. And, you know, it didn't do very well. It was a humbling experience. You know, I was kind of a little bit of a local XC hero maybe, but they definitely, you know, showed me what was what. And it kind of opened my eyes to, you know, what more was possible.
And then so were you? You were living in Aspen then. When did you move out to San Francisco?
I was pretty much in Colorado for 10 years between college and kind of dirtbagging for a few years, traveling, and then grad school. And then spent a year in Hawaii, and then came back to the Bay Area.
Okay. You know what I'd like to even ask you more about is your training. You know, do you consider, do you still train for competitions, or do you just rock up and send it? I
like to get a couple of practice days in.
I think too much more than that, and you risk getting a little bit tired out or burned out beforehand, especially if it's going to be a long comp.
A couple years ago when we were down at the, I believe it was the Superfinal in Mexico, or maybe it was the Monarca. I can't remember which one. But you and Eric Reid were doing a lot of physical training. You were adding on a ton of pounds. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was just the wings you guys were flying. But do you train in other ways? Do you train physically or mentally for competition flying, or just flying in general?
Well, yeah. That was kind of a funny period when, for a little while there, after we went back to serial gliders, there was basically only one size available of comp gliders. And so if you didn't want to have to carry a ton of ballast, it did help to bulk up a little bit. And I found that I kind of liked the weight training, and I've stuck with that more or less since then. And then I've gotten back into running in the last couple of years, although lately I've been kind of just on a bit of maintenance, just like once a week kind of thing.
And is paragliding for you something that's kind of a recreational activity that you do whenever you kind of get the time? Or do you have... Do you have any goals? You know, do you... Like, I think that those of us that fly with you, you know, your style is really something to behold. I mean, you're always stomping. You're always going hard. Sometimes, like last year, maybe it was this year at the rat race, you were way ahead going into the last day. And yet you still just threw down, you know, on that last day and, you know, landed short and I think ended up in second, which is just rad. Rad. I love that. I really like that. You're just... You're always going hard. You know, tell me just about your kind of your goals in paragliding.
Is it... You know, I... Because it's kind of hard to tell when I watch you. It's... You're clearly out there to win, but you also seem to be just having a lot of fun. And, you know, I don't know. Is the win really the ultimate or is it more just flying around with your friends?
I was flying in, like, 95 in Australia. And I remember seeing my first World Cup pilot there. And it might have been Harry Bunce. And I was on launch and I just saw him launch and then thermal out and just, like, head off into the distance. And I just thought that was pretty amazing. And I thought, you know, maybe someday I could be that good.
And so, you know, I guess one goal was just to get better. And then I guess I see it as an outlet for a way to find adventures and to see new places and to, you know, have some good adventures with the buddies.
What was your first win?
Let's see. Well, I guess, I mean, I guess winning the Nationals in 99, although that was... There were some foreign pilots at that meet who... Came in ahead of me. I guess there was a Tome Meet in Florida in 2003.
And then also SoCal Open in 2003.
Maybe a better question would be, do you have a most memorable flight? Was it a comp flight or just a free flight?
There's so many. But One that comes to mind was from a World Cup out of Sierra Nevada, was a few years before the world's there, and they called just this ridiculously long task, I think 240 kilometers. like most of the way across Spain. And we just headed out, didn't have GPS or anything. And, you know, somehow I had a rough idea of where to... It was pretty much north. But we went across mountains and across flatlands and through a national park, like gliding over these ridges where we didn't really know what was on the other side. It was just an amazing adventure. And no one actually made gold, but I think the winners made it around 200 Ks and, you
know, I made it not too far behind that. So that was pretty, that was pretty memorable. Do
you, if you ever had either an incident or a time in your career since you started flying when you were 16, that was, I would describe like as a lull or a time where you, you know, took a step back or either, either. Lost the passion or, you know, had a, had a, had a moment where it was like, I don't know about this, maybe from a scary flight or an accident or.
I guess that time in college you could describe that way and probably, or, well, I suppose part of that was losing a friend, a friend from Aspen who, who died while pioneering a site somewhere in Colorado. So, yeah, that, that kind of...
You know, put me, gave me a little bit of pause, I guess. Was
it hard to come back from that or was it, you know, was it, was it just time or did you find that it affected your flying?
I mean, I guess there was also that, that during that time I had my kind of main, main accident and it took, it took like a month to kind of physically recover from it. And, and then, yeah, probably a little bit longer to get my head right again. Tell
me about the accident. I didn't know you'd had an accident.
So it was, it was an evening flight in Aspen and we'd flown Smuggler and we're landing in, in a friend's driveway basically. And I, I guess I hit some, some turbulence sort of while, while doing S-turns on final approach and got a collapse and kind of penduled into the, into the driveway. And so I, you know, at the time just thought I'd kind of... I'd kind of like sprained, sprained a couple of things and wrung my bell a bit, but it turned out later on that I'd torn a ligament in my knee that I later on ended up getting fixed.
Have you had other accidents or, or have you ever thrown your reserve?
So three times in like 2000, 2001. Yeah.
But other times just over water. Were
any of those, you know, memorable in a way that are... The, the three times that were, the, the times not over water, did those just work out?
Yeah, they worked out. I mean, they were kind of memorable. One, one of them was in, in Valle and I think the guys got a chuckle because as I was, because I threw fairly low kind of over Espinoso, but had time to get on the radio and say, yeah, coming down on the reserve. And I can remember Gad kind of chuckled. Chuckling over that later.
Cause you were low.
And, and just, yeah, sounding pretty unemotional about it. Right.
The Josh bot just reporting. I like it. I like it. Scary flight. Yeah. We've all had scary flights, but I was, it was just on a bike ride earlier today and I was asking Nate also, Hey, what questions should I ask Josh? I said, I want to find out if he's had a scary flight. And he said, ah, Josh has never had a scary flight. He doesn't get scared. But is that true?
Oh, no. I had lots of scary flights. I
figured. Do you have a, have a real, have, have one that really stands out? I
remember one, one in Aspen, one of the later comps in Aspen, I think where there was an embedded thunderstorm over the divide between there and Crested Butte. And so kind of the whole lead gaggle got, got stuck in a gust front.
And I, I'd remembered like Robbie Whittall. I remember him talking about how, you know, you shouldn't do big years. And so I remember being very amused to look down and see Robbie Whittall right under me doing big years.
But so yeah, that was, that was definitely scary for a little bit. And I mean, I'm sure there've been others. I mean, I've, I've tried to give after that and generally tried to give, give thunderstorms pretty wide berth. Yeah, there was, there was another time and in Jackson hole and I was kind of soaring at the training hill. And then in some, there were some. And the clouds were small clouds with Virgo way across the valley. And then the next thing I know, it just, just picked up and it went from not quite so kind of fairly soarable to being blown over the back and had a pretty hard landing. And I, I suspect some of the stiffness on my back sometimes might have something to do with that.
On that note, one of the questions I always like to ask is there, you know, looking back at this long career. You've had, uh, and, and a lot of flying in a lot of places all over the world. Is there things you've learned along the way that you wish you would have known when you were 16, you know, like any advice to your 16 year old self before you, you know, took your first flight, like, Hey man, be wary of this or take the time to learn this. Yeah.
Don't, uh, don't get high and go flying.
I mean, unless it works for you, but it doesn't work for me. Right.
That's good advice. Yes. That
was kind of early days, early days sort of thing to watch out for.
Maybe we should talk about sex, drugs, and rock and roll. That'd be a good talk as well. Um, Hey, let's switch to a question. I asked Nick that I haven't put this up yet, but I had a great talk with Nick earlier in the week. Um, and we talked about the worlds. Um, I don't remember what year, but, um, it was a year in Mexico where each one of you, uh, Badger yourself, Brad gun, uh, farmer, you each one a day, I believe, um, at that, at that worlds. But as a team, um, you know, the U S has, has always struggled at the worlds and, you know, other than the obvious, you know, we, Nick and I brought up, you know, the, obviously that the Swiss have money and the French have coaches.
I mean, so other than some of the obvious things, um, what, why do we struggle? There's so much, I
think it's harder for us to train together than, you know, um, teams from small, smaller countries. You know, I've often had a chance to train with Badger cause we're, we're local and both doing the local league meets, but it's hard to get the whole team together. And then just kind of the dynamics of the way the team works, it's, it's a little bit harder to get people to kind of sacrifice themselves for the team and be perfectly cohesive.
This was something that Nate brought up that I, I, I agreed. I really wanted to ask you, it seems to me, and I haven't been in the game very long. So, uh, you know, I, I only started flying with you in, in 2012 in Chelan, but, um, it seems that you've maintained this, uh, incredible passion for the sport and for competition specifically for an awfully long time. Whereas I seem, you know, it seems to be that, um, a lot of competition pilots, you know, get really fired up about it, chase it really hard. Um, and. And then, you know, maybe once they've tapped off a couple of goals or, you know, hit a couple of check marks or decided that, Hey, this is just too expensive or too much time. Um, they back away and go off to something else, but you, you've maintained, um, a pretty steady passion, I believe.
I mean, maybe I'm wrong and correct me if I'm wrong, but, um, I'd love to just know where that comes from. Is it just love for the sport or something else?
Yeah, I don't know. It just, uh, I guess it just, just kept being fun. And I, this last season, I. I have been starting to feel a little bit of a sort of waning and, and desire, or maybe just a little bit less kind of willingness to take quite as much risk, um, which probably played into flying the, the triangle XC three at the, uh, nationals and Owens. Tell
me more about that decision then. Was that, um, you made that decision then, uh, more specifically site specific because it's the Owens and it's route. Or just to have more of an enjoyable comp where you weren't having to worry about so much about stomping bar on a, on a dicey wing.
Um, probably a little bit of both and, and also just having, um, having had more experience with that glider flying it at league meets and kind of seeing what it could do. Um, I'd had a, like a drag race with, um, I think, uh, Francisco, uh, on his, uh, his Enzo too, where I came in ahead of him. And the league made, which made me think, ah, this triangle is not, not so bad.
Um, and it was just so much more mellow to fly and like any, it would never get cravats and anytime it would, uh, crumple a little bit or, or take a little collapse, it would just be a total non-issue. Whereas with, with, uh, two liners, it's pretty much, you gotta be totally on your game. And even then you gotta be a little bit lucky. Sometimes.
Sure. Yeah. Well, certainly saw that at the, at the competition as well with the two accidents there. Um, you're, you've been a pretty vocal voice in someone that the, the community, I mean, the world community respects a lot when it comes to this kind of thing, but tell me about what's happened since, um, Peter Heda and, and banning serial cap class. And, um, you know, as I know, you've, you've, you're, you're opinionated on that and you've, you've, um, really tried. You've tried to shape, um, how that's moved forward. What are your, what are your thoughts on that with where we are and maybe where we should go?
When, when they first banned open class gliders, I thought it was a mistake and I'd kind of lived through the previous attempt at serial class, which didn't really go anywhere. But at the time I was kind of imagining the current serial gliders we have then. And, you know, it's, it's amazing. How, when you, when you sort of laid out in some different, some different rules for the designers, they go, they'll work with them and they'll, they'll go crazy and come out with some, some really competitive gliders.
Um, and I don't know, I have mixed feelings about it. Like on the, on the one hand, you know, I'm not sure if things are way safer than, than they would have been or than they were before. But it does seem. To be a pretty well-acknowledged idea that having the gliders go faster and faster, um, was leading to some pretty, pretty impressive and energetic blowouts and, and that the two liner technology was kind of enabling that. Uh, and that was, that was something new that we hadn't really seen before. You know, so I think we've, by, by having gliders that are tested, it means that, that the CCC gliders, um, you know, generally they.
It's all pretty nicely, pretty predictably. Whereas with the, um, the open two liners, that wasn't so much of a, of a given. Um, so that's an improvement, I guess. Um, you know, it sounds like maybe we've got some, some pilots who wouldn't have flown open gliders who are flying, um, CCC gliders now. And I'm not sure if that's a, I'm not sure if that's a plus for safety. Um, if it was up to me to just, you know, decree what, what we would fly in comps, I would probably prefer to fly more like, uh, X helps gliders, um, something, you know, lightweight that recovers well packable. Yeah, that sounds pretty nice. I mean, not a, wouldn't want to have a disposable glider, of course, but, um, you know, something like that, that, that triangle, it's pretty nice.
How much do you, I'm switching. That was great. And I wanted to, we could stay on that topic for a long time. I know, but, um, how much do you. How many hours would you say you fly in a year and does it change a lot every year or is it pretty consistent?
Probably somewhere between 75 and 150 or so.
Okay. Um, and then what are your kind of, what are your goals with, with flying when you look at these next couple of years? Um, do you have like some big, big lines you're, you're looking at, or is it more, uh, comps or. Yeah. Um, just, yeah, where do you kind of, where, where's your energy going with flying? I
think I might be putting a little bit more energy into, into switching careers soon, but, um, That's a totally different energy. Yeah. Uh, but, but flying wise, um, flying wise, I think I'd like to try to try to fly some new, some new places and maybe try to do, uh, you know, a little bit of bivvy flying or, I dunno, I keep saying that, but I like the idea. At least I've, at least I've got a lightweight set up now that makes it seem more reasonable. Um, something I've been trying to talking about trying to do for a while, uh, would be a little bit like, um, well, sort of a rally kind of thing, like the, uh, the flight tech race and rally.
Um, I think it'd be really fun to get a bunch of friends together and, um, get a van or a couple of vans. And start at one site and set a task to another site and, um, you know, keep on doing that for, uh, for a few days.
That sounds, that sounds amazing. We definitely do that. That sounds like a lot of fun. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I don't expect you to give all your secrets, secrets away, but, uh, our listeners, I think would be really disappointed if I didn't ask you in Nate's own voice, what the fuck is your secret? Yeah. That was, that was his verbiage. Uh, I didn't do his accent, but, um, why, you know, when I, the first time I flew with you in, in Chelan, um, the thing I picked up right away is just your constant searching, you know, you're, you're, uh, you're paying attention to everything. I, you know, I almost think of you as like a bobble head. You've got your head going in a million different directions all the time. And that was really my first kind of like, okay, this is what I need to be doing.
I need to be looking around more. But what else is it? Um, what are your kind of, uh, go-tos or secrets? You know, you taught me, uh, I think a couple of years ago, or maybe it was Chelan last year that you often, when you come into a thermal, we tried this in nationals and Mads didn't like it very much, but, um, you know, to sample more air by turning the opposite way of who you're with, um, I, I, I love that technique. And, and as long as somebody, you know, that understands what you're doing, um, so they don't get upset. Yeah.
That's a good
one. Yeah. But what are, what are some other things? Because it's just, um, you know, I think it's one thing to, you know, rock up at a comp and do well. Um, but you are incredibly consistent, uh, just again and again and again.
I think at a certain level, most pilots are, are pretty good at thermaling and pretty good at gliding. Um, I dunno, I've been told that I glide pretty well. And I think maybe part of that is, is kind of always trying to fly speed to fly. Um, and also like watching, watching other pilots around and trying to pick the better lines, um, you know, as well as any other clues there are, but really, I think the kind of the main, the main edge you can get once you get to a certain level is, um, the psychology. And so I've tried to study some sports psychology books and I, I think I've come to a way of thinking about it that, that seems to work better for me.
Um, you know, it, it's better than you think. Like at, at first I would, I'd be really, you know, I'd be really inconsistent and if I didn't do well, I'd beat myself up about it. And I try to. Kind of dissect what, you know, why did the wrong thing and so on. And at some point I think I started to see it more as that. You just try to get better.
You decide, you decide you want to win, and then it happens. You know, it's—it's really more what you can actually influence is your—your preparation is, um, you know, your practice and getting all your gear so it works well, and you know, not—not being too tired or hung over or dehydrated, uh, or hungry, um, and then just trying to, uh, never give up, I guess, is—is another thing, like optimistic, yeah? Because so many, so many times it happens that you get—you get behind, and then you catch up again. Or, you know, sometimes it turns out that being behind actually, um, you know, turns out to be an advantage, sure.
Sure, um, for I think a lot of people don't really understand understand speed to fly. Can you talk about that?
Um, yeah, I mean it's a big subject, um...
It's, let's see, I mean, you know, the the cliff notes version of it is when you're in sink or headwind, fly faster. And it doesn't really take that much sink or headwind to where where the comp glider, anyway, you want to be going full speed. One one thing that's easy to look at is just your your glide ratio over the ground, and if that starts going down below, you're going to be going full speed. And if that starts going down below, you're going to be going pretty fast. So, um, I don't know, six to one or something, you probably want to be going pretty fast is
that you're kind of, that is that the main thing you're looking at on your instrument, yeah
That, that, and um, you know, ground speed to get a feel for if there's a headwind or tailwind. I'll, uh, I'll look at the the drift and the thermal, um, because often, you know, you'll find that the one thermal might be drifting a lot and another one's hardly drifting at all, and and that will kind of factor into whether you want to stick with it longer or not. You're
Often on the task committee, you've always been on every test committee at any race I've been at with you. Um, tell me about, you know, calling a good task, and what were you guys—what are you as I know you're, you're typically, I think, the voice in the task committee that's going for bigger tasks, but um, uh, or maybe maybe we can even just use the Sierras as an example, but what are you? What are you kind of, you're kind of the voice in the task committee that's going for bigger tasks of looking for there? What, what makes up a good task? I
Guess I, I like to try to sort of do as much as can be done with a day within reason without making it grueling, uh, but you know, say what, what is a good flight that we could have today? And also, could we do a nice, a nice tour of the area? Could we see some new areas? So, like, I was really happy with that task to Bridgeport. That was just really, really beautiful, and it, we had some conflicting weather information, but it just worked out perfectly as far as the wind, so that the
one out to the lake, out to Mono
yeah yeah yeah
That was, that was just beautiful, and I liked it that there were so many options. You know, we had so many different ways of flying it once we left the whites. That was a, that was a pretty terrific getting, getting a goal there. It was a lot of fun. So, Josh, I wanted to do a little bit of a tour of the area, and I think that's what we're going to do because you've flown so many wings over the years. What's the best and the worst wing you've ever flown? I
Think at the time, the Ice Peak Six was, uh, seemed like the best one I'd had up until then, and it was kind of a standout for being a really good all-around glider at the time. Worst was probably a one-off, uh, small-sized Windtech Silex that I had, um, or no, no, a prototype. Well, they were both pretty good, but, um, but yeah, so one, one was kind of a small version of the medium. One was medium Silex was good, but the small one, the test pilot was really too big to test it well, and it was kind of spin-prone. The first, my first flight on it, actually, I spun it immediately right off launch, yeah.
which was exciting. I kind of like swung through a few feet off the ground, so after that, I kind of got on a kick of of like a little bit of a spin, and I was like, "Oh my god, I'm gonna be able to fly this. I'm gonna be able to fly this." Testing the the spin point of gliders and really practicing that, and I've found it pretty useful, yeah.
I guess so. Any other, uh, memorable events on what? So, what year was that? I'm not even familiar with that brand, uh.
That was in the early 2000s. I was, uh, I was sponsored by them for a bit, which you know, which was, was great for a while. They're very generous and I appreciated that, but, but after a while, I, I started to realize that, um, you know, even, even fairly generous sponsorship is, uh, not necessarily worth it if you don't have a glider that's competitive. Another
thing that one of the things that I learned, or I heard about, I guess early on in in cross country flying, um, but I wanted to get your thoughts on it because it's something that I still battle with, and certainly battled with a lot in the X-Alps, um, is switching gears, um, you know, going from when you can really throw down to where you really need to back off. That seems to be something you really excel in. Are there any, um, kind of thoughts or ideas you can give to our audience about how you switch gears, uh,
I think one thing that helps is to go over the the task on launch and just try to identify places that you think might be tricky spots and just try to kind of think a couple times before you know just sort of charging off in front on that part. You know, it might be a time to take it. Well, yeah, you know, just just try to sort of imagine in advance where where you might want to dial it back. Uh, but then also, I guess just experience tends to give you, tends to give you more intuition about when are good times to take it easy. Uh, I mean, an obvious thing also is, um, kind of dividing this guy up into thirds.
And keeping track of your your height above ground, getting more conservative as you get lower, and and on the other hand, uh, it's good to be ready when you're coming up on a section where it's going to be just headbanging ridge running, because if you're not, if you're not in the right headspace for that, you can pretty easily get left behind when everyone else goes full bar.
Okay, excellent. When, when you going back to your nickname, the Josh Bot, um, um, what, what are you thinking? Like, maybe in a lead-up to a comp, a big comp, like maybe this year's Worlds, um, you know, have you learned techniques? You know, Mads gave a great talk when we were out in the Sierras on, you know, kind of like mental preparation and priming, and you know, he's, he wrote the, that book, The Rags to Glory, about winning. Um, do you have some things, you know, you're kind of what's in your tool bag for, uh, when you, you know, when you, when you come to a comp, what are you thinking about starts? I
mean, I, I try to, I try to be, be psyched for it. I, I think, I mean, listening to, to Mads talk about, about that stuff, I don't feel like I'm quite as, kind of mentally fragile as he imagines us to be about things like going to the, going to the pilot's briefing and so on. I, I guess, I kind of generally agreed with his idea, idea that you don't want to kind of belabor talking about accidents and so on too much, um, and, and yeah, you want to avoid sort of negative energy on launch and so on. I don't know, I think if I'm, if I'm having fun and kind of looking forward to going flying then, and that's, that's kind of my, my happy place, I guess did.
The um, did the accidents in the Sierras this time around? I know, you know, Badger is a good friend of both of ours, uh, but I know he's, you know, your flying partner, and you guys have spent a long time, for many, many years, flying together. Was that a bit of a shake-up, or is that the kind of thing, um, where it's, you know, you've seen it, you've seen it a lot, and um, you know, it's just, it's, it's really, it's part of our sport.
No, that was... that was tough. Um, I think I kind of put off, you know, emotionally dealing with it until... until the comp was over, basically. Uh, although it's still, uh, yeah, it still definitely shook me a little, but it's been good to see him on the road, on the road to recovery, so I'm good.
That's good to hear. Speaking of risk in those accidents, you did say that you're maybe backing off a little bit, but has your approach to risk changed much? And I think it changes for all of us as we get older, of course. But were you at Peterhita in 2011?
Yeah, I was. Yeah, that was really a dark, dark atmosphere there.
Yeah, it just sounded like it doesn't get much darker than that. It was horrible. Is your kind of tolerance for risk changed because of what you've seen in paragliding, or can you kind of attribute it to just years?
The way I think about it is that... Well, I think I went back and forth about that years back. And I guess after the years when I threw my reserve several times in a couple of years, I kind of backed off a little bit and flew serial gliders for a while. And then at some point, I think I decided that I was going to... I think I convinced myself that it was sort of reasonably safe for me to fly comp gliders. And it'd be a lot more fun. And it was worth it. And so I made that decision and then just decided not to worry about it for a while.
But I think it's good to reevaluate every so often, especially in the off-season when you're not... I think it's good to kind of set aside those kind of existential doubts when you're going flying, but it's also good to be realistic. I think it's good to reevaluate every so often. I do feel like I'm a little bit in a reevaluation period a bit now.
2010, the PWC in Chelan. I hope I have the right comp. Like I said, that's before my time. But is that the one where you guys had that amazing last flight on the last day that Russ Ogden still talks about? And if so, can you tell me about that flight?
I think that was... I think we had a... Yeah, like a U.S. Open before the PWC. And that was... Okay. Yeah, it was like a 100K triangle where we came in as the sun was going down and the moon was coming up. And yeah, that was pretty amazing. And we just basically ridge-sworded the last leg of the triangle coming down the Columbia River there with kind of a quartering headwind.
So yeah, it was pretty amazing.
And then also at the, let's see, more recent Chelan Open, we had that 200K task. And that was amazing. That was one where at about, I don't know, 180K or so, I just happened to be on glide and kind of look around at the terrain and we were over the Palouse country. And I hardly ever had this happen before, but I just had this... For so I'm like, you know, the hair on the back of my head. Your neck stands up. And it was just so, so beautiful. So, I mean, it's moments like that that definitely make it seem more worthwhile. I
think that was the most spectacular final glide maybe I've ever had. That was just an amazing evening where you just... Yeah, I kind of forgotten about the instruments and the comp and everything going on. It was just like, holy cow, look at this place. That was really special. That was pretty fun. Yeah. I'm excited to see that Matty's got his hand up for Nationals in Chelan next year. That should be a lot of fun.
Yeah, I'm super psyched for that. Yeah.
So you might go down to the Monarca and you'll be doing Chelan Nationals next summer. Any other kind of big, you know, hope for us this season?
Well, I guess we got a Nationals in Salt Lake also. Combined with Open Distance maybe. And that sounds interesting.
I can imagine.
I wonder if we'd be allowed to do both.
That'd be all right. This task is too short.
Exactly.
Yeah. Hey, finally, Josh, you know what I wanted to ask? I
wanted to ask you about,
because I talked about this a bit with Nick, but knowing that, you know, you're one of the regional directors and very involved in what's going on with USHPA all the time. Can you give us a little insight into what's happening with the insurance right now?
Well, it's still a little bit in flux, but from what I understand of it, it's that for years we'd sort of talked about the potential to self-insure as kind of a plan B if things fell through. And there was always kind of a bit of a thread in the back of our minds that we could lose our insurance.
And so now it's looking like we might be at risk of losing it or of having the premiums go up so much that it would be untenable. So it looks like we're moving forward with self-insuring, or at least very seriously investigating it. And
one of the best benefits of that, as far as I can tell, is that we would be able to control the way that the way that cases go. So, like, often the insurance company has the incentive to just settle and just get get potential claims off their books. And that's not really good for precedence and discouraging future lawsuits. So we would have the opportunity. So we would have the option to be a bit tougher about that.
So, like, in all things, maybe a bad thing presents some opportunities.
Yeah, it does seem like long term it could it could be quite good.
And is there risk of losing sites because of this, or is this more on a, you know, case to case, person to person basis?
Well, if we lost our insurance, then then, yeah, we could lose probably a fair number of sites, at least initially. But hopefully it won't it won't come to that.
Well, cool, Josh, I want to be respectful of your time. That was fantastic. Is there is there anything else you want to add before before we close it down? Any any other advice to you know, we're we're starting to get a lot of downloads and a lot of listeners on this. And I think people are really enjoying getting the advice from guys like you, as I have over the years. I've been so lucky to have guys like you as my mentors that I've been able to learn so much from. I feel like. It's just it's a real honor to be able to spend some time with you guys, you know, when we fly around these comps, but obviously now as well. Is there anything anything other little tidbits of advice you'd like to let out of the bag?
Yeah, thanks for doing these podcasts, Gavin. I've I've enjoyed them. I mean, I guess I might have already kind of said it, but, you know, I would I would suggest try to focus on just getting better. And not so much on results and the results will take care of themselves. You know, the the kind of gliders below some of the gliders at least below comp gliders these days go really well. So you can get 95 percent of the performance of a comp fighter and it feels like it's much less risky to me anyway.
And and then also be able to, you know, lightweight gear and do hike and fly. And. And, I don't know, there's just a lot of fun things to do.
There's many aspects to this crazy, absurd thing that we take part in, isn't there? It is pretty entertaining. Well, hey, thanks a lot, Josh. I really appreciate it. Thanks for your time. And we'll see you down in Mexico, hopefully.
Yeah, thanks, Gavin. And just a shout-out to all U.S. pilot friends. It's always fun flying with everyone. There are too many to list, everyone. And, yeah, everyone, thanks for listening.
I hope you enjoyed that. I certainly did. Man, there's a lot of learning going on there, a lot of really valuable lessons and advice from Josh Cohn. Really appreciate that talk. Really appreciate his time. We changed the format here a little bit after getting some feedback from some of you that you didn't like the way I was starting these off with a quote or a little bit of talk from whoever was previously on the show. Of course, what I should be doing is... I don't know who's next on the show, but I'm just actually wrapping this one up. And I'm going to be on the phone tonight with the current champion in India. Well, that'll be a pretty fascinating talk with a guy named Gurpreet. Looking forward to that. As always, if you enjoyed the show, all we ask for is a buck an episode. That really helps me get beers in these guys' hands when we're doing these things and take them out to dinner and stuff.
You've all been incredibly generous. Really fantastic. It's making me want to dive in. Do a better job and figure out some of the audio stuff. I'm obviously new at podcasting, but it sure has been fun. If you wouldn't mind, put a little rating on Stitcher or iTunes. That helps spread the word for sure. If you've got questions you want to ask or people you want to have on the show, reach out to me on Facebook or email. Sign up for the newsletter on cloudbasemayhem.com. That'll keep you in the know when these things come out. Catch you next time. Thanks very much. Cheers.