9. Thomas de Dorlodot and the Endless SEARCH - Thomas de Dorlodot

Yeah, so it's funny, I mean, because like when I was in college, you know, she'd tell me, I'm like, well, what, you know, she's like, what do your family do? Oh, they work in communications. My mom's a teacher in her. She's like, oh, what is yours? And, you know, they're paraglider pilots. And I thought like, what? So they're unemployed? Words

there from Mr. Nick Greece from last week's podcast. If you missed that one, it's fantastic. Super inspiring to hear where Nick has come from and where he's going. I just got back from Iran, but we had a great conversation. You'll find it at thecloudbasemayhem.com. This week, I just got off the phone last night, Skype conversation with the Search Project Wizard and Red Bull athlete and traveler extraordinaire. This week, I just got off the phone last night, Skype conversation with the Search Project Wizard and Red Bull athlete and traveler extraordinaire.

This week, I just got off the phone last night, Skype conversation with the Search Project Wizard and Red Bull athlete and traveler extraordinaire.

This week,

I just got off the phone last night, Skype conversation with the Search Project Wizard and Red Bull athlete and traveler extraordinaire. This week,

I just got off the phone last night, Skype conversation with the Search Project Wizard and Red Bull athlete and traveler

extraordinaire.

This week,

I just got off the phone last night, Skype conversation with the Search

Project Wizard and Red Bull athlete and traveler extraordinaire.

This week,

I just got

off the

phone last night, Skype conversation with the Search

Project Wizard and Red Bull

athlete and traveler

extraordinaire. This week,

I just got off the phone

last night, Skype conversation with the Search Project Wizard and Red Bull athlete and traveler extraordinaire.

This week, I just got off the phone last night, Skype conversation with the Search Project Wizard and Red Bull athlete and traveler extraordinaire. This week, I just got off the phone last night, Skype conversation with the Search Project Wizard and Red Bull athlete and traveler extraordinaire. This week, I just got off the phone last night, Skype conversation with the Search Project Wizard and Red Bull athlete and traveler extraordinaire. This week, I just got off the phone last night, Skype conversation with the Search Project Wizard and Red Bull athlete and traveler extraordinaire. This week, I just got off the phone last night, Skype conversation with the Search Project Wizard and Red Bull athlete and traveler extraordinaire. This week, I just got off the phone last night, Skype conversation with the Search Project Wizard and Red Bull athlete and traveler extraordinaire. This week, I just got off the phone last night, Skype conversation with the Search Project Wizard and Red Bull athlete and traveler extraordinaire.

This week, I just got off the phone last night, Skype conversation with the Search Project Wizard and Red Bull athlete and traveler extraordinaire. I think 22 years old. I had been flying for seven years already, and my level was pretty good. I was going to the Belgium Championship, and I was flying a D glider already, and I did my first X-Alps. No, I think I was 21. Yeah, I was 21 when I did my first X-Alps. I was a little bit coming from nowhere. Being honest with you, it was like, yeah, this guy is coming from Belgium, flatlands. I didn't know much about the Alps, but still, I had a pretty good race. I was in the top 10 for most of the race, and then I had a small crash, and I broke my hand. It was almost nothing, but still, I had to cancel and leave the race, but it was a really cool, really good time.

Then I started to think, okay, now if I want to get to the next level, I need to fly more. I moved down to Spain, and I went to live in Granada, in south of Spain, in Andalusia. That was a really good move, because actually there, I met Ramon Morillas, who is three times Paramotor World Champion, and Raul Rodriguez, who was at the time, many times, acrobatic world champion. He's a legend. For me, it was a great opportunity to learn with the best. I started to spend a lot of time to, yeah, I was with Ramon almost every weekend, almost every day, actually, flying with him, helping him out with his competitions, preparing the gear with him. He really told me a lot and helped me to learn flying Paramotor, but also paragliding.

That's really when I started to get good at it. Then came the first small expeditions. I did a trip from Brussels to Istanbul. It was a 3,000 kilometer trip with the Paramotor. Were you already sponsored at this point? I was, no. I had really good contact with Red Bull. Since the X-outs, and in Belgium, we didn't have many flying men. I was kind of pushing. It was the time when Red Bull kind of liked to do what we now call the Guerrilla style things. There's no other ways. I remember one time, I flew from the top of Machu Picchu in Peru. I got arrested for that. They kind of helped me to get out of jail.

We made good friends after that. Red Bull said, it's a cool story. Can you write something for us for the website? That's pretty much how we got in contact. Interesting. Oh, wow. It's always interesting to end up in jail. My partner for a long time, who you know, Jody MacDonald. Yeah. She's over in Africa doing a big shoot for LECA right now. Her goal was to get arrested. She said, no serious photographer can ever claim they're a photographer if they haven't been in jail. I've been in jail many times, too many times. That's so a vibe, buddy. One time in Peru. Then, I think only in Ethiopia, when we crossed Africa with the search team, we were arrested only in Ethiopia five times.

Sometimes, it was really serious. One day, we flew above a meter a day. We got arrested. It was really nasty. That's how I got in contact with Red Bull. At the time, I was studying communication. I knew a bit about editing, about photography, about writing a cool story. It was the two things at the same time. On one side, I was, I think, good at what I was doing, flying, but also, I could tell stories and do it well. It's not only about competition. It's not only about results, but it's also about telling the story. It's not only about competition. It's about telling the story and coming back with cool footage and trying to build a community. I didn't know that about your background, then. One of the questions I wanted to ask, of course, you've been competing in the X-Ops, but I didn't know you were a competition pilot as well.

I figured that was something. I only got into competitions in 2012. I remember seeing you. You and Horatio did some acro at the start of the Superfinal in Colombia a couple years ago, but then you didn't compete in it. You used to compete in competitions. Yeah, but I didn't go far. I liked the format, but still, I needed more freedom. I really loved to go to the Belgium Championship. I did the British Championship, the French Championship, competition like that because I have friends, and it's cool. Many times, I found myself doing para-waiting and standing there and waiting for good weather, and also days that they would say, yeah, today we have to fly this direction and do this and that, and I had other plans or other ideas.

For me, I didn't really get into it. I liked it, and I was pushing and doing some results, I think, but still, it was not my thing. When I started to do adventures and bivouac flying and started to cover distance with the paraglider or hiking, the X-Ops format is much more my thing, I would say. The Red Bull X-Ops is really the way I like to practice. If there is a competition I still want to do, the X-Ops, but I wouldn't go for PWC. I think it's great, and it's the Formula One, and those guys fly really well. When I look at it, I love it, but for example, now I've been following the guys who are in India, and they haven't been flying for four days.

I don't know. I like to move around and choose my own path. It's quite constrained, isn't it, in the competitions? I got into competitions because everybody kept telling me that, that's how you learn, and you get more from a week in a competition than a year of flying. I think that's true, but I think you have to have a really smart approach to competitions. I don't know if you were following, but we just returned from the Nationals and the Sierras, and the first two days, there were two major accidents. Both of them were lucky in that the pilots survived, but they were both very, very broken. I think that you have to approach them in the right way. They can be very dangerous.

Of course, the X-OPS is even more dangerous, obviously. Anyway, so you did this long paramotor trip to Istanbul from your home, from Belgium. That's a long way. Yeah, that was really cool. We had no budget at all. It was the first very small Denali made with Red Bull, and they said, okay, Tom, we like your idea, and we will help you out. They helped us to pay the gasoline and the basics, but it was really a surviving trip. We were sleeping outside. We would land just next to the gas station. We filled the tank. We didn't have support or anything, and we covered 3,000 kilometers in a month or something like that. We crossed the Alps, and the paramotor were doing great. They survived the whole way, and we got arrested in Greece because we landed in a minefield.

In Turkey, you need a visa to get in Turkey. You need a stamp on your passport. We had to land. That's

the way

we just crossed the borders without asking anyone. We landed there, and we landed just in a minefield. We got arrested, of course, and the whole story was pretty crazy. It was another arrest, yeah.

But then, at the end, they were really friendly. We got lucky. We met one of the military guys who was a paragliding pilot, so he fixed everything for us, and we could keep going. But it was great. We crossed the border walking, and we took off again and flew all the way to Turkey. to the sea, to, to Istanbul. Um, that was the first, let's say big trip. And then I, I started to think, okay, this is, I mean, it's, it's cool. It's, uh, we really enjoy doing this and there is a way that we can talk about it, uh, you know, share it as much as possible with videos, with photos, with, uh, um, you know, small, small stories on the magazines and stuff. And we started to think that maybe we could make a living out of it, you know? And when you say we, who is your, who, who are your team?

At the time I was flying with a friend, it's called Maxim. Um, but, but no, I mean, slowly, slowly, we started to work with a photographer and then a cameraman and then, uh, Horacio Lorenz, of course, is one of my best friends now. And we fly a lot together. And, um, this is really when we realized, okay, we, we could survive out of paragliding and this is what we want to do. And so the first five years were, were like that, like really pushing to find cool angles. And most of it, you know, basically we would, we were trying to have as much fun as possible and fly as much as possible and, and share as much as possible. And, um, and yeah, I think now we, we kind of, uh, we reached a point where I can say I'm making a living out of paragliding.

Um, it's, it was not my main goal, you know, but, but, uh, the good news is that now we can keep on pushing and, you know, imagine bigger trip, uh, organize bigger expedition. And it's, uh, it's really cool. It's a, it's a lot of fun. This is kind of your, your job now is just to dream big. I mean, I think you have probably the most enviable job in, in, in paragliding and I like my job, but yeah, you're, you're really setting an incredibly high standard. It's been impressive to watch Tom, fantastic stuff. If you, if you could, if you could like, this is kind of an ethereal question, um, and maybe you've already even answered it, but what is it about paragliding that just has you so wrapped up? And is, are you in our, are you still as passionate about paragliding as you were when you first started flying at 15? You know, it's a difficult question.

Like, um, I, I have to, yeah, being honest with you, like, I, I don't know. I think for me, the, the very first flight I had was the best of my life. Um, yeah, I think so. And, but, but then, you know, it's, it's so much, it's so much more than flying. Um, flying is, is the part of the iceberg, you know, that you see, you can see, but the rest is, is, uh, the cultural thing, you know, discovering a new country, a new culture, um, meeting people, you know, the whole community is amazing. Also, it's so friendly and I, I really love to spend time with other pilots and, um, and there is so much to do. And I would say like, if you, you fly in New Zealand, wouldn't be the same that flying in France or flying in Patagonia or flying in South Africa. So it's kind of a, a different sport every time with different goals.

And if, if I do get a little bit tired of cross country, then I go more acro. And then if I do want to come back to long distance or bivouac, and I think it's, uh, it's changing so much and all the time we have different, uh, approach. And so I'm still not tired about it. And when I crashed last year, I was really, it came to my mind. People were saying, okay, he's going to stop flying now. And it's going to get a real job and things like that. And it, it, I, it never crossed my, crossed my mind. Like really is from the moment I crashed, I only thought about coming back and flying again. And I'm so in love with it. And I think I made this choice 15 years ago, I decided to make my, you know, my life was going to be all around paragliding. But having said that, I don't know, maybe in five years I have different views and I want to do something else.

So, you know, a different approach. I think you, you know, more about that because you've been sailing for 13 years and then now you're flying and maybe you go back to something else. I think you just have to follow your art at the end, you know, it's a do what you enjoy. And as long as you enjoy, and as long as you're passionate about it, you will have energy to share, to, to, to push and to keep going. But if one day I wake up and I'm sick of it or tired of it, then I'll just, uh, do something else. I think, but, uh, Cross that, cross that bridge when you get to it. Yeah. I think you, yeah, because also, I mean, I had this discussion with Brad Sander, um, a few years ago in Pakistan and he, he talked, he said to me, you know, I don't embrace the conditions anymore. I don't, uh, I don't like it so much than before.

I don't feel so motivated. Mm-hmm. And it's also when it gets dangerous because, um, you know, we're always pushing a little bit higher, a little bit further, a little bit faster, a little bit closer to the walls. Um, but you have to be a hundred percent if you do that. And if you, if you're not at a hundred percent or if you're not fully motivated, it can even get dangerous, I think. So it's, um, This is something I really wanted to dive into you. And it's, it's, it's a great, uh, it's a great bridge talking about Brad Sanders. You know, uh, he was one of my partners when we did the, the Sierra trip, the, the Sierra. Yeah. Maybe. And he crashed really badly the, the very first day. And, uh, you know, it was, uh, it was, you know, I've, I've, I've seen, I've had quite a few friends that have had, uh, really bad accidents like that where, um, in fact, one of the questions that came through on Facebook yesterday when I put out that I was going to be talking to you, um, I think Miles, no, let's see, let me just find it because it was, it was, um,

it was a really good question. Um, yeah, Miles Connolly wanted to know like the best flying choices you've made versus, versus the worst. Um, and you know, I, that was one of those where you could see that Brad was, you know, 70%, he was flying scared and, and, uh, he just wasn't all there and really questioning everything. You could see it in his eyes. And I, I've known quite a few people who have, um, you know, have, have been like that when they're, when they're, they're trying to get back in the game, they're trying to get back on top or where they, even where they were. And I know, and James Bradley is a good friend of mine and he had, uh, a question for you as well, in regards to this, he had a couple of scary moments at the, uh, at the Swiss, uh, I think it was a Swiss league event or maybe on a Swiss nationals this summer.

Uh, he threw his reserve one day and kind of had a crash another day. And he was out at the Sierras with us and was really struggling mentally. And so he wanted me to ask you just how you, you know, how do you come back from, from a broken back, uh, mentally, because I, you know, in seeing, in seeing these other accidents, you know, the, from, from an outsider's perspective or at least with Brad, you know, we all talked about it a lot afterwards. You know, we had 18 days of that trip to go. He crashed on the very first day and, and we all, you know, the consensus was, well, he shouldn't, he just shouldn't have been in the air. You really need to recognize these times where you aren't on your, on your game and to recover that game. I think people go about it in different ways, but I'd love to know, I'd love to find out how you went about it because you, that was a major accident.

I think you have to be really honest with yourself and just accept the fact that it will take time, you know, and, um, it's not that you crash and then the next day it's, oh, it's all good. It's like nothing happened. Um, of course you're, it's, I always compare it to, you know, when you have a big party and you, and you get drunk and you drink a lot of vodka and then the next morning you smell, uh, you have the smell of vodka and you, you will never take a drink, you know, and your brain is saying, no, you know, it's like, no, don't do that again. Um, and it's, it's a little bit the same, you know, when, when I crashed, I broke my back. I broke many bones and, um, I stayed for weeks in hospitals and stuff. But, uh, but since the day I crashed, I really wanted to go back and to finish this Adriatic Circle trip that I started with Paul Schubauer.

And when we came back a year after, like maybe eight months later, we, we arrived at the site of the crash and I look at this tree and I thought, well, still there is a thousand kilometer to go. Um, and I, I didn't want to go

back. I was saying, no, why is it, are you stupid or what? You know, why do you come back? Um, but at the same time, a part of me wanted to overcome this fear and, and, uh, and I, you know, I cannot turn back, you know, it's, I have to go all the way. And Paul was really, um, really good to me. Like he said, I know we take our time slowly, slowly, one day after the other. Um, if you don't like it, we land. And a day later, two days later, I was, I was back at my best level. Like I was, I was not thinking about it anymore. I think you have to get back on the horse, you know, but, um, was this something, um, would you say that you, you know, you had a program? I know in one of your bios, it mentioned that you had a coach. Do you still have a coach? Yeah, yeah, I do.

And I think, uh, yeah, when I, when I crashed and I came back last year, for example, I, I decided I started to fly again in Columbia because, you know, by the Bravo and stuff, it's a, it's the, perfect place to come back because the thermal is smooth. Uh, it's not big mountains. You usually don't get strong wind. It's flyable every day. You get lots of flying hours. And so I went back to the mountains with, um, with a sea glider. Um, here, I don't have problems flying with sea gliders. You know, they're great. They're doing, they're doing amazing gliders now. So I, I flew with that and I, we crossed the whole, um, the whole country. We did the Travesia del Coca, um, which was, uh, it was not huge. It was, uh, four, 400, 450 kilometers. Something like that.

But it was great to come back to it and fly there and get lots of flying hours. But really after two or three days, I was, I was back. Um, it was not, it's not that now when it gets stressful, I get, uh, I get, I block or anything like that. I really, I feel great when I fly and I, I just, the thing is, and that's really hard to say, but, uh, when I crashed, I usually, I always used to, I used to say that if you crash is because you made a mistake somewhere, you know, and, uh, it can be because you were hard or you're not flying with the right gear or, um, you're stressed or whatever you're flying on in bad conditions. But that day really was okay. The wind was strong, but it was nothing extreme. And I, I came to the ground, like I was flying down above a huge field. It was no obstacles, no nothing.

And Paul was playing just in front of me and nothing happened. He landed. And when I came, I got a turbulence and I, and I crashed and it's now I kind of have to live with that. Like with the fact that paragliding is actually dangerous. We know that there is that uncontrolled aspect.

Even if I, if I, I think that I could have been more focused maybe, or I could have chosen maybe a safer place to land, or I could have landed higher in altitude and stuff. Um, but there is this point where you're just going down, there is no conditions anymore. The wind is strong and it's just okay. Just playing with your luck, you know, kind of, um, and it happens to everyone. And I think now I have to, when I go flying, I'm just like, oh, there is a big risk or there is a risk to get hurt, but, uh, either you accept it or you go home. And I, I decided to accept it because my whole, um, you know, everything I love is out there, you know? So it's a, it would be impossible for me to renounce and say, okay, now I stopped playing because of the dangers. I just have to do it with more, um,

I have to be as careful as I can. And, uh, you know, and that's it. I think we have to do it, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like you said, I liked your advice that you have to be really honest with yourself. In the very first episode of this podcast, it was a recording actually that wasn't meant for a podcast. We sat down with Bill Belcourt, who's kind of our – he's our Yoda over here. He's kind of everybody's mentor. He's been at the game a long time, and he has this concept of – he calls it bringing it, where you – to fly cross country, anytime you're really pushing it or really going for distance, or going for a win in a race, you very often have to put your glider in a bad place. And if you're not mentally prepared to do that, you just shouldn't be in the air that day.

That's just not – because I have very few big flights that have been mellow the whole way. Yeah, exactly. And especially in a place like the Alps, when I was training this spring for the X-Ops, I was trying to fly the course, and you and I actually got quite close together when you were finishing your Adriatic Circle. Yeah. And it was actually near your crash. I was doing a big triangle from Mornera and Bellinzona, and it was quite a strong north fern day. And I flew up to Domodossola and then tried to get over the Simplon, and it was too strong there. And I backed out, and I went up to the Newfoundland, and it was just smooth and beautiful. And it was actually the day that Peter Kleinman set the record from Mornera. It was just incredibly lovely. And I flew – instead of flying back to Mornera, I really wanted to check out what we call the big sky.

The

big sea,

you know, towards the Arolo Pass and back down to Bellinzona. And so I flew over the pass, and it was lovely, lovely, lovely until I got to the Arolo. And then it was just unbelievable. That's the area. Yeah, the north fern was dumping into there. And, you know, literally from, you know, a class one flight to just, like, fighting for my life. And, you know, when that happens, you just have to bring it. You have to be – you have to – that will happen if you're going to paraglide. You have to go and fight. You have to fight. Very often I look at my glider and I say, is that all you have? Like, you know, and I'm in fighting mode. And I think for that, like, the best advice I could give to any pilot is to fly a little bit of acrobatic. Yeah. Because it's – I've learned so much in Horacio.

Like, really, it's – now that if I do have to stall my gliders or to do anything or if I'm twisted or things like that, I'm so much more concentrated and so much more focused. Then before, before I just lose my mind and I wouldn't know what to do. But so acrobatic is really good, really good for that. And I totally agree with what you say. It's also when we fly in Pakistan, for example, is where you have to be on the fighting mode. And what I always say to pilots who kind of hesitate and are not really sure is I say, if there is a doubt, there is no doubt. You know what I mean? It's like if you think you shouldn't fly, then you shouldn't fly, you know, or if you – and it's very simple. But I think – I think it's the basic. And we're at the end.

We're just playing with our lives from time to time. And it's – if you have a bad feeling, you should listen to your intuition and just stay down and no problem with that. And the problem is with the group and the team spirit and people will be pushing and say, hey, come on, man. Don't be a pussy. Just go for it. And no, actually, we should respect. I mean, I have a lot of respect for those guys who, for example, I'm thinking about Michael Gebert, who is a really good friend. I was flying with him the day he decided to stop. He exhaled, you know, this year. And we were flying together and he was really nasty. He was very turbulent. And I have to say he was kind of enjoying it. And I think it's a mixture of we are really tired. We know we can fly those conditions. The glider is safe. So I was having a good time. But I could tell he was not having a good time.

And he couldn't see the point anymore of pushing so much and so hard and taking so many risks, so much risk, to just be maybe getting to the top 10 or, you know. It didn't. It didn't make sense to him. So he turned. Really, we were flying together and he turned around and went straight down to the valley. And I remember that. I remember that day. I was I was, you know, he had caught up with me at the I had a couple of really bad days and fell off the front. And and he caught up to me near St. Moritz the night before. And then the next day, you know, we flew into that pea soup down near Chiavenna. And I remember watching his track log where he just said, you know what? Fuck this. I've had enough. And I understood it. I

understood it

because that was a hard section to get through. I was that was a low point for me as well, where it was just like, my God, this is just. Yeah. And, you know, what I really like is that we had this conversation and he called me and said, what do you think? And this and that. And we are we have the same sponsor, you know, and so he called Gradient. And I know that Andres from Gradient said, man, don't worry. There's nothing to prove. You know, the most important is yet that you you come out in one piece. And, you know, and so I really appreciate that. It's. It was the same when I crashed. You know, when you crash, you think, OK, now everyone's going to let me down, you know, because I crashed and this and that. And and at the end, it was so good to see that the sponsor were still there, were still supporting a lot, you know. And I've heard from Red Bull or Volkswagen or Garmin, don't worry, get back on your feet, take your time as long as you need.

You know, and it's that's the for you and I, it's the basic, you know, but but also when we have been pushing so much and I never stopped for the last 10 years. It was always an expedition from one project to the other. It was good to hear that you don't have to be 100 percent all the time. You know, you can sometimes rest. And, you know. Yeah. Compare the accident with your back and your wrist in the X-Alps. What happened? And, you know, because you and I haven't had a chance to talk except by a couple of quick notes via Facebook. What happened with that accident? The second one that this this time is I have to say it was a mistake. I made a mistake there. I was. We were flying with Ferdi and we were in a pretty good position. There was a.

I was about an hour behind you, by the way, that day. Yeah. Yeah. Coming up to that. Cool. Yeah. No, we had a very good day. Really flying in fighting mode and really having a good time. And then we decided to not to walk too much because we had a good mountain, a good flying site nearby. So we had a good night. I had a good breakfast. That was really fitting. You know, you can see in the X-Alps that. The top ten at the beginning, it's like people pushing a lot, getting really tired. And for me, I work kind of a I'm kind of a diesel motor. You know, I start slow and then try to get back into it. And it was happening at that time. I was really feeling strong and stuff. So it was good. But anyway, we decided to we landed there because we did a big transition and we arrived too low.

So we landed there with Ferdi. We walked back up to the to the mountain. And then it was. We had we could have taken off from one place, but it was not the best place. There were some cables below a few trees and stuff. So we started to climb a little bit higher from the call. And there was really steep, like really, really steep. And Ferdi took off first and he did it perfectly. I really thought, OK, that's that's not it doesn't look too hard, but it was very steep. So steep that if you if you miss your takeoff, you're most likely going to fall down the the whole way. You know, and that's what happened. I inflated my glider, but it's the line state made some knots, you know, it stayed tangled a little bit in the rocks. And then when it when the glider came above my head, I felt some pressure, but not enough.

But, you know, the typical situation where you think, OK, no problem, I jump in and it's going to fly anyway. It might take a few seconds, but it will fly. But it didn't because the wind was catchy and it never flew. And so I fell down. But I felt first, I think I felt eight meters or six meters. I crashed and then I jumped. I fell over the rocks and then fell down and there I could see one hundred and fifty or maybe two hundred meters of steep rocks. You know, I was I was going to I really I had the time to think, OK, this is it. And you know what I thought? It's a little bit crazy to say that, but I thought, hey, no worries, it's not going to hurt because I remember from the last crash, it didn't really hurt. You know, at the moment you crash, the light goes off basically strong and so violent that and I remember thinking that when I saw the fall I was going to go through.

I thought, OK, this is not going to hurt. That's it. You know, and and then my glider got my lines got tangled in the rocks and all my right side, all the right lines of the gliders of the glider broke. And so I only had lines on my left side and the left riser was still holding me. And so I hit the rock really hard with my foot and I only broke my foot. But it was no is nothing in regards of the whole situation. You know? Right. Yeah. So but it sounds like a little bit of luck there, too. Yeah. And it took two hours to two and a half hours for the helicopter to come. And what is a little bit crazy is that it was the same helicopter than a year before. Wow. Are you kidding?

I know. No, no. And they said, do you want to go to Bellinzona or Lugano? And I said, OK, let's go to Bellinzona because I have friends there. So I arrived there. And yeah, it sounds crazy. But I had no idea. I had the same Red Bull hat. I had the same clothing. I had my backpack with me. And they recognized me, you know, because I made some good friends there. I stayed quite a long time. So and they used to call me the Iron Man because when I crashed, I broke all my bones. But I was kind of OK. And so they were like, oh, the Iron Man is back. I felt really stupid, to be honest. But at the same time, you know, it can happen. And this time, this time, blame is on me. Like, really. I should have found a better spot.

But you know how the X-Alps is, you know. And that day, I finally landed. It was sixth at the end of the day. And I think we would have done this flight together. I mean, it was the plan. So but you never know. And I didn't look too much for the results. I was really there for the game and the adventure. So yeah. Louise Tapper was the supporter for Nick Naden's Team New Zealand. And I think you've already answered this question. But he wanted to know. You know, would you do it again? You've already said you're really excited to do it again. So I think we already know that. And would you do it if you weren't a Red Bull athlete? Was this something you'd be attracted to and wanted to do regardless? Yeah. I think it's, for me, it's the old adventure.

I think there's a few things. The X-Alps has been evolving so much. The first time, I was 21 years old. And I remember I went to the McDonald's the first evening. To get dinner, you know. And it was like this. You know, I listened to the podcast of Nadescale and those guys. And it was exactly that. You know, we would arrive there. The adventure. We were arriving a day before the start, kind of, you know. And there was nothing like now. Now it's so well organized and everything is so professional. And the people approach it very professionally. But at the time, I was sleeping in the back of my car. I had a 1,000-euro budget for the whole trip. Jeez. We were only eating pasta three times a day. My supporter was on holidays. I told my supporter, yeah, come on.

He was a good friend of mine. I said, man, we will have a great time. You can fly. You can enjoy. You can visit the places we go and stuff. So I would see him, like, one or twice per day. You know, it was so different. And we would go always by teams. Like, I would always join the French or the Germans or the Austrian. And we would go together. I would really, if someone was 5K in front, he would give you a call and say, hey, I wait for you. We go together. And it was really more friendly. Not a friendly competition because people were still pushing quite a lot. And we didn't have time limits. So we were pushing by night. But it was different. What I'm trying to say is that it's getting faster and it's getting more interesting, each time more. And I still see that my level is getting better at it.

I have more experience. So I still think I have something to learn. Something to do. And also, I never made it to Monaco, which I think this year would have been a really good year to make it to Monaco. But I never made it to Monaco. So I really have to finish this. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I've reflected a lot. I'm actually working on a book about the ex-Alps. And I'd like to hear about your book that you just published as well. But it's, you know, this was my first one. And it was, you know, I've been very fortunate to have a lot of incredible experiences in my life and have done a lot of expeditions. You

did great. And it was super fun. God,

it was fun. It was just an outrageously good time. You're going to come again? It was just an outrageously good time. It was just so much fun. Yeah,

yeah. You

will do it again? Yes. Oh, for sure. You know, we were on the way up to the Gaisberg day one. You know, Ben, my kind of ground supporter, my trainer, he came down from the top to bring me some water and some goo and stuff. And from there on the way up, we were already talking about the second one. The whole time through, we were talking about the second one. second one you know and i i think what's what's what's really exciting for for us is it is a team is because we were rookies we made so many mistakes you know and and they were all completely forgivable mistakes they were mistakes that we knew we would make and you know like i didn't have the right maps on my phone and we we made we made a lot of you know a lot of pretty much all the mistakes were were were mostly mistakes i made in the air but also just uh rushing you know and that's what that was one of the pieces of advice you gave me before the race and you know don't rush don't rush and even with everybody telling me that we still rushed and when we would rush you know my my best day was the day after your injury as well i i landed i got caught in the valley winds and landed about 10k what a flight yeah and i was in the hospital looking at your crack huge day that was a big day you know and it was again it was the only day it was one of the only the day other than the first day where i flew well because i was rested you know i landed that day and my my feet were annihilated and bruce wanted me to rush off kiss ferdy and all those guys were just in front of me and i said no i i'm gonna sleep i'm gonna take care of my feet and and we're gonna thrash those guys tomorrow because i'm gonna fly straight through where they all went up around the big sea and you know and it was kind of like if it'll work and we'll be a hero move or it won't work and we'll be done and but either way it'll be fun

and uh and so it worked and we got lucky but no but you you didn't great you know before the the adriatic circle i was at Paul Guschlbauer place and his dad said to me if you want to be fast you have to go slow you know yeah and i kind of like the saying you know it's like and in the in the exhalts it's it's totally this you know like if you see guys like ferdy for example uh ferdinand van skelven from holland is that he's just really thinking about the next move and doing his own thing and it works and it pays off you know when people are i was i was the first three or four days i was with the french guys and one of the youngest one also and he was he was pushing so much he was running all day he was running yeah but uh but in the evening i was with him yeah yeah isn't that funny and he would be destroyed so yeah it's just you have to really it's it's a very strategical race and really complicated and it's um it's so good at the same time it's uh i think this year was a really special year because it was very dangerous for everyone um i think we all agreed on that the conditions were not really the best conditions we could have and we were flying in very crazy conditions i remember the day i flew to brenta i had a really good flight that day and when i landed i thought okay i left them behind for sure you know i was flying with 10 other guys and i thought with this kind of flying with the risk i took i left them behind for sure and then they came and they landed one after the other and and i thought this is crazy you know the level is going so high yeah and but it's interesting and it's nothing like people would look at it they are in front of the computer and they think oh i would have gone there because it's this or this phase or this but i think people don't really realize um what we're going through with the winds and the valley winds and the conditions that we encounter yeah on the way what i always call my big day day eight the day after you got hurt when i went from from belenzona to orsier you know across uh the matterhorn at one point that day i was with uh powell the the no sorry i was with the polish pilot uh yeah yeah and uh and i realized my god you know i've been flying all day i haven't seen one recreational pilot you know in one of the most busy places to fly in switzerland and then i realized you know because it was such hard work that day it was there was so much wind and i think that when people look at it from the outside and they see us doing these big flights they think oh it must be you know it must be really nice but i you know most of the days you know the first day being the major exception we're not doing

the big flights we're not doing the big flights we're not

that i would choose to go fly a paraglider there'd be days i'd go mountain biking or something you know it was that was really interesting we had a long conversation and i don't want to get too much off off base here with your talk but you know i it was i had a really interesting talk in monaco the first the night i got in with with duragati and paul and and petio and you know duragati was shaking when he was talking about his trip he was he was really you know and he he's he's crazy i trained with him in the spring i mean he he's a really skilled acro pilot and he pushes really hard and he flew on a day that i would have never flown when we were training near near his house and it actually was in switzerland but it's just across just before the the turn point in st moritz and it was windy it was horrific and and he launched and i thought god i don't and it really scared me because i don't i thought i don't think i would launch in this in the race either you know and but uh you know he had we all had we all had a scary very scary calls and i think the outside world maybe they they can see that but i i think that uh you know it's it's one of these it's a it's an incredible race because you have to continually push that line and i think like you said if you're in the right frame of mind you know before the race i had several weeks when i was there training i wasn't in that frame of mind i was flying well but but i you know when things would happen i was constantly looking my glider going oh shit what was that what was that you know whereas it's suddenly in the race you get more in the flow and when that stuff happens you're like like you say you look

come on is that all you got yeah i think it's also because we're we're flying and we're really so tired and i i think sometimes we don't realize anymore how dangerous it is like i'm not saying that we're not focused but the thing is when you've slept four hours and walk 35k in the morning before takeoff it's it's we're there but not not as much as if you had a good breakfast a good night uh if you were on radio with your friends and stuff you know it's um but at the same time you what what i think is what is amazing is that you're not you're not you're not not is that you're not you're not very Six Silence is that it gives you it shows you the possibility and what is possible to do with paraglider i would never thought that it was possible to fly so much in the lee side for example you know and cover distance with very strong winds and things like that and it's uh it's interesting and you see that actually paragliding is is capable of amazing amazing things and it's uh it's interesting uh i think it's a very good way to to learn and i think for all of us it's uh such a cool a cool event and And, yeah, to answer your question, I think I'll go again.

And even if I was not sponsored by Red Bull anymore, I would really want to take part and be there for sure. Well, let's switch gears. Another question that came through by a gentleman named Thorlack from Norway. He really wants to go to Greenland next summer and fly. And it sounds like maybe he doesn't have, you know, a whole lot of hours. And so he wanted me to ask you, you know, you have flown all across Africa and Pakistan. Pakistan and you flew over Victoria Falls and then you flew Paramotors and the Marquesas. And so I want to ask you what's next with your search projects. But when you go to all these different places, how do you, he wanted to know, how do you get over your fears of flying a new place? Because some of these places are obvious and some are not.

You know, some you don't know the line. You know, when I did the trip with Will last year across the Canadian Rockies, we had no idea what was ahead. So how do you, how do you approach that side of the game? You know, it's interesting. It's a very good question because I think we're, we have been educated to get there, you know, to get to a flying site, to get to, to check the windsock, to talk with all the pilots about dangers around and things like that. And so people who've only, they've only been doing that, you know, they've only known this kind of flying. Of course, for them, it's really hard. It's really hard to understand that we just go to any mountain, take off and go, you know. But at the end, it's a little bit also what we do in the X-Alps, you know, and you realize that this is what it's made for.

A paraglider is just to, you know, you get there, you check the mountain, you think, okay, the wind is coming from that direction. It should be clean to launch there. Let's go. And with the time and the experience, I realized that most of the time it works. And even when you think it would not work. You know, having said that, of course, it's important to analyze the weather, to analyze the conditions, to analyze the place, to try to talk to local pilots and stuff. But really, like, if you have a little bit of skills, you should be able to improvise. And we've been doing that the whole way. When we were in Africa, we never, almost never flew on an official takeoff or official flying site. And at the end, it works.

And I think it was the same for you when you did. Your big crossing is just, you have to improvise, and you check the maps, you check Google Earth, you climb a mountain, you take off, and you go. And this is really how I like to practice paragliding. For me, it's this feeling of having 10 kilos on your back and climb a mountain and just feel free to take off or not, to choose your place. And I just love this feeling of flying a place for the first time. It's the best feeling you can get. And I would say to this guy, of course, Greenland, I know that the place can be pretty windy, which is, in a way, not so good, but also good. Because if you know the direction of the wind and if you can really analyze where it comes from, how strong and stuff, then you can think, okay, this face will work, this won't work, this is in the lee side.

And at the end, it's a very simple game. It's just taking off in the wind. And it looks complicated because we are not used to it. As soon as you start improvising and going around with your glider and taking off from hills and little mountains and then slowly, slowly, you start pushing, you realize that actually the paraglider is made for that. And it's confidence, isn't it? When you see videos of Chrigel launching in 40-mile-an-hour winds on steep slopes, you can see that he knows he's got that move. And that's just from hours and hours and hours of spending time on the ground. I heard stories of him practicing. Practicing in 60-kilometer-an-hour winds on snow just to see how much wind he can handle.

And not many people are willing to go do that. And you see it with him. I was just watching some highlight videos of the X-Ops this year yesterday. And he went and top landed in a spot that was kind of an old, it was very steep, and it was a clear cut. And there was all these big stumps. And you could see that he did it without thinking about it. He just did it. It was like, yeah, I know.

I know

I have that move. And that fly-on-a-wall move where you point it at the hill and land, and he did it just so smoothly. I tried that a little bit on the Canada trip and just completely botched him. I mean, if you screw that up, you're going to break your back. It's a really hard move to do. And he just does it without – it's just one of the things in his toolkit. It's all practice. It's all practice. And at the end, I always say the same. Go step by step and slowly, slowly. And you start with a local flying site that people have talked to you about and that there is a possible takeoff. And then you go there, you take off, you do your thing, you know, slowly. What's really cool is that the day you arrive, for example, in the Malayas, and you look at a mountain from far down in the valley and think, okay, I think it's possible to take off there.

And you do, and you fly 100K. It's magical. I mean, it's the most – you know the feeling. And I think people should try to practice that more. And also, it's the paragliding schools and stuff. You know, they should bring people out. You know, because I compare it to skiing. You know, you can either ski on the pist and on the ski resort, or you can ski, you know, off track and go in the powder. And it's a totally different game, of course. But at the end, it's the same sport, you know. I like that. You just need skills, you know. And you don't need much as long as you take your time and you really analyze. At the end, you see. You sit on the mountain, and if the wind is too strong, it's too strong. That's it, you know. If it's the wrong direction, it's the wrong direction.

But it's not that complicated. And I think places like, for example, the Pyrenees or the Alps, it's really the perfect place because you have to take off all around the Alps, you know. Everywhere. Everywhere, yeah. I mean, on every mountain, we could always find a place to take off, and you don't always need really good skills. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When you look back – When you look back at your career, certainly your career in flying, have there been any kind of aha moments? Have there been any times either through accidents or victories or hard times or any of the – during the search projects where you've had any kind of aha moments about what you're doing? And by aha moment, I mean like where you've really sorted something out or figured something out or, you know, you've just advanced to a completely new level?

Yeah. I think, you know, well, in Pakistan, for example, one day I was flying without my oxygen, and I went too high without oxygen, and I almost lost consciousness, and I couldn't see anymore. That was a very close call, and I learned a lot from that. I mean, accident and big flight and very tricky situation, I found myself, I think, too many times.

And every time you think, okay, that was another close call. You don't know if it was a close call or if it's you saying that as a dangerous – I don't know, really. But many times, I kind of, I think, reached my limit.

But with the time, I'm more – I'm getting wiser, you know. And, for example, when we were in New Zealand, we crossed New Zealand with Ferdi, and halfway, we realized it was too dangerous. We were pushing too much. We were really on speed bar all the time, flying in squares. Strong winds. We almost crashed. One time, we actually crashed in threes. And it was just getting too dangerous. So halfway, we said, okay, now we have to just, you know, go slow and take our time and only fly in good days. And the second half of the trip took actually half the time of the first half of the trip. You know what I mean? Right. We went much faster. I've learned so many things about this, you know. But I think the difficult times is always –

you know, it's a lot of things.

Because when you have a big project, like when I crossed the Pyrenees alone, halfway, I had really bad weather. And I thought, okay, I'm not going to do it. I don't have time anymore. And you start to kind of being depressed and stuff. But that's why it's not the worst. I think, for me, the hardest part, it's sometimes to deal with – you know, when you organize, for example, a crossing of Africa or a sailing boat for three months in the Pacific Islands, we're talking about big amounts of money, you know. And a lot of stress and big teams. We have two cameramen. We have one photographer, one sound master, sound designer. You know, it's many pilots. And it's all those people that rely on you. And you have, you know, big sponsors that are waiting for results and stuff.

So we had some stressful moments where we thought, okay, we're not going to be able to deliver because the weather is not good and this and that. And it comes to a totally different sport, you know. It's managing. It's trying to manage a team, you know. And, yeah. I've learned so much, you know, on the way. But I think the most – also the difficult parts, of course, were the big accidents, you know, and the friends we've lost on the way. Yeah, I read in your bio you lost a good friend. Do you want to talk about that? Yeah. I mean, I was – you know, we all know Antoine Montand. Sure. It was not really a good friend. But he was someone I really admired.

And we were actually talking about organizing a project in Pakistan together. And the plan was to fly, you know, use the paraglider to land on virgin mountain tops and speed right down those peaks, you know. That was a very cool plan. Yeah. And we were talking about it and stuff. And then the accident happened. And that was really hard. It

was really hard

for me to see that, yeah. And such a cool guy, you know. Yeah. But then I have also another story of a friend I met in Nepal. And we flew together for one month and learned acro together. And he made a stupid mistake. He decided to jump from his paraglider above the water. He wanted to celebrate his, I think, one month there in Nepal or something like that. And he jumped and he was higher than he thought. You know, when you're above water, you never really know. He did this thing, you know, and yeah, he died. And so it's like we've seen too many accidents. Last year when I was flying in Colombia, I was flying with Horacio and we flew with a local, I think it was a Swiss pilot.

And two days later, they called us and they said, oh, this guy you were flying with, well, he crashed yesterday. He's dead, you know. And it's always too much, you know. It's always too hard to take. And it's some of the best, you know, Matthias Rotten. Alejandro, the cousin of Horacio and the brother of Raul and Felix. Those guys were really good, you know, some of the best in their game. And they really knew what they were doing. And still they're not here anymore, you know. So I think this is the hardest part. And I think sadly we will still, there are some other people who will go, you know. Yeah, of course. So I really hope that, and we have to give a good example to the people. The people who are following and, you know, by doing things with, you know, trying to be smart in the way we practice paragliding and not trying a bad example, you know.

Yeah, absolutely. On that theme, Tom, if you could go back now and tell your 15-year-old self, if you could give your 15-year-old self some advice, what would it be?

That's interesting. You know, I think it's the more you fly, the safer you are. You know, so I would say fly more. I would tell him to go more into acrobatics because I know that for many of the pilots out there, they all think that acro is dangerous. And many people think that acrobatic is dangerous. But if you look at the students in competitions, you know, it's clear that cross country is more dangerous than acro. Sure. And so, yeah. Leaps and bounds. By far. But yeah. But acro, you know, when you see Raul or Felix or Horacio or Pal Takats, when those guys fly cross country, you know, the first cross country flight that I did with Horacio, he hadn't been flying for 10 years cross country.

And he flew 200 kilometers in Pakistan.

They know how to handle their glider. And on the radio, he was saying, man, I'm not used to stay so high, you know. Because normally, I have altitude and burn it down, you know. Right. And it was because they can control, you know. And if you can control most of what happened, it's already, you know, you can use your head for something else, you know, to concentrate on the next terminal, on the next transition. You don't have to be fighting with your glider all the time. And you're much safer. I've seen accidents that it could have been solved if the guy could handle a full stall, for example. Sure. Sure. Or a twist. And sometimes you see accidents, and when you look at it, you think, man, come on, just one SIV course, and this guy would have been safe, you know.

So I think that's what I would say. And, yeah, and don't rush. Don't rush, yeah. You know, I think what happens as a professional pilot is that people think when you go on a big traverse, like you think, okay, people are looking at us, we have to go fast, and this and that. And people tend to push a lot when actually they might. Or they're less. It makes no difference, you know. Yeah, absolutely. And I think people should accept that it's a dangerous, you know, sometimes it can be dangerous. And just respect that and take time and be safer is not a problem. I mean, yeah, I don't know. It took me a long time to understand. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's interesting, and I'm really encouraged that you say acro.

That was literally the first thing I thought of the night I got into monorailing. Monaco, as I said, you know, I already knew I wanted to do the X-Alps again. I'm dying to do it again already. But that was the first thing. I've always been really interested in acro, but we don't have very good places to train here. And, you know, but I've made that too much of an excuse. I have a very good friend down in Salt Lake who's, you know, now tumbling, and he's become very proficient, and he's getting ready to go. And so he and I are going to train all winter. But I thought that that was my first takeaway was that, you know, for me to do this safely. It's like when people should not participate in cross country if they don't have SIV, current SIV under their belt. I get angry about that, you know. Like it's just you're really – that's really not something you should do.

It's just too dangerous, you know. And if you have SIV, you have the confidence, and like you say, you know, you can get out of bad situations very fast. I had to full stall my glider three times coming out of the Matterhorn, and I was quite low, you know. I didn't really have the time to do it. But, you know. I had to reset, and I think that – and this isn't a pat on the back. It's just, you know. Yeah, exactly. It makes the whole difference. If

you're going to do

that, you have to be willing – you've got to have those tools, you know. And I think – Experience makes the whole difference. It does, of course. And it can make a – yeah. And it's a broken leg or nothing, you know. Yeah. Or a crash or you're safe. And also, it makes you fly much better because you feel safer. You understand that paragliding can actually handle quite a lot, you know. When you get really turbulent, you know what can be done, what cannot be done. And I think that this is the basic. And also, I would say if I was like 15 years old or if I was talking to a 50-year-old pilot, I'd say don't rush too fast on the gliders because people would say, yeah, but I need a D-glider or I need a prototype or I need this or I need that. When actually you see most of the pilots who fly out there, they don't do many days and they don't use the full potential.

They don't use the full potential of the glider, you know. And I see – I have a really good example about that. When I – we went to Brazil with Horacio and with the owner of Gradient. And at the time, he was coming out – the B-glider, the Nevada was coming out. And Andre said, okay, let's take Nevada and fly in Brazil. And we were like, what? We're not flying B-glider. We need better gliders, this and that. And so, finally, he agreed and said, okay, take the C-glider, the Aspen. It flies better. It flies faster. This and that. And then we flew every day with Andre. And every day, he flew longer than us. He flew a bigger distance with his Nevada. So, it's like after all, you know, we thought, okay, we felt a little bit ridiculous. Well, he's an amazing pilot. He's really good.

But still, it was interesting to see. And I think at the end, it's not only about the glider. Of course, the glider makes a big difference. But I think people are taking risks by flying gliders that they don't really control, you know. That's great. Well, this is a perfect segue. Because one of the other questions was, how do you choose your glider? You know, one of the questions that came through was that a guy named Tom Sleipen, a good friend of mine from Canada, you know, he really wanted me to talk about my choice for flying the Ice Peak 7. You know, I planned on flying the Peak 3 and the X-Alps and changed very last minute. Went to the, you know, standard weight. It wasn't a lightweight glider. But he wanted me to ask you that, that, you know, most of the people in the X-Alps choose, you know, to downgrade. Not by downgrades. Not the right way.

But they choose to fly a safer glider for the X-Alps. And that was the advice that was given to me. I just felt like my choice was really due to the fact that the Peak 3 is a terrifically manageable wing. But it doesn't do very well to wind. And I knew that we'd be flying. It looked like we were going to be flying quite a bit of wind, which we did. And, you know, and I wanted that bar performance. And then just personally for me, I really, really enjoy the feeling of it. The two-liner. I don't feel like, and I've written about this in blogs, but I don't feel like I'm upping my risk if you have the hours. You know, and that's the big difference. If you have the hours and you feel confident, then I feel like these gliders are safe. But, you know, as we saw in the Sierras a couple weeks ago, you know, I see the Enzo 2, these CCC gliders, and I was flying the Ice Peak 8, which isn't really any different.

Yeah. You know, they are incredibly hard to recover. They just flatly are incredibly dangerous gliders. And you have to be flying incredibly well and confidently. And even then, they're still pretty dangerous gliders. But talk to me about glider choice. And, you know, I had an interesting thing. You know, in Canada, I flew the Peak 3, and Will was on the Carrera, which is a really sweet B. I mean, that thing goes like a bat out of hell. It's impressive. But, you know, that made me think a lot about it. Because the only time I could really shake it. I mean, we were never trying to shake one another. We were trying to stay together. But it was when there was wind, and we were going to wind. I just had a little bit more performance. But that combined with, you know, when I flew my big flight here, I was also on the Peak 3.

And people have said, God, I wonder what you would have done if you had been on an ice peak. And I've always claimed that I don't think I would have gone as far. Because, you know, it was a very turbulent day. I had flown a big day the day before. I'd only had about three hours sleep. And so I was kind of tired. Equivalent. Equivalent. Like you feel like in the X-Ops, where you're just flying on autopilot. Yeah. And had I had a wing that was more to handle, I think I would have done worse. So that makes my decision to fly the ice peak in the X-Ops interesting. Because, of course, we were really tired. But for me, it was definitely the right choice. Now, had I been hurt or something, then, of course, we'd be saying something differently. But anyway, I don't know if you have any thoughts on this. I think it's interesting. I think there's different things that you have to think about. Like, first of all, is that what is it?

Is it for, like, is it for, you know, long distance? Or is it for adventure? Or is it for, you know, is it the place where you're going to fly very windy or not? You know, and I think for me, what I really wanted for this time, for this X-Ops, is a very fast glider. I wanted to, because I knew, like, basically in the Alps, you're flying against the wind all the time. Especially when you go from east to west. And so I thought, okay, I need a glider that goes fast. And we had this discussion with gradient. And we talked about it before. So when I read your story and I remember you writing about you have to choose a glider which makes you feel like Superman.

It made me smile at the time. I thought this is a really cool point of view. But at the same time, it was like, whoa, okay, actually, it's so compromised. You know, for example, in this case, okay, you have more speed. You have more glide. But. It's probably more difficult to land in small places on the road somewhere. It's more difficult to take off because you have a two-liner. Maybe you break a line. It's very thin lines. It's heavier, you know, to carry. Imagine if you had 10 days of rain. Then you'll be thinking, oh, I should have taken the other one. Those two extra kilos, it's a big difference. It's a big difference. It really is. That part was the worst part. So, you know, it's really. At the end, it's all about compromise, and there's not one good, you know, there's not one best choice, I would say.

But in this case, for example, the glider I had, it's fast. It's very easy to control. It's clean. I wanted to have something that is clean, you know, that I can. Okay, that can be a little bit aggressive, but that at least I understand why, you know. But where I totally agree with you is I think that speed is safety. So many times when you're flying, you know, those typical moments where you're flying backwards, and you push the speed bar, and you're not really sure, and you don't have speed. And this is, for me, the most dangerous situation. I really prefer to have a glider that goes fast than a glider that's, you know, even if it does collapse a little bit here and there, speed is a major concern for me. So I would say speed. But also, for me, especially in bivouac flying, it has to be as light as possible.

But, again, we have different. I mean, for example, when you did the crossing, the traverse, you did everything by flying. When actually we also hike and walk, you know. And when you start thinking about, okay, it has to be as light as possible, as light as possible, as light as possible. And then when you know that it's not about being. I prefer to try to stay one hour more flying, you know, because I can, because I'm not so tired, because I didn't fly a technical glider, you know. Well, then the opposite way. So it's very difficult. But I would say no. I feel so confident with this glider that I have now. It's the Avac 65 that it's a really good compromise for everything.

Of course, it wouldn't fly as much as the best competition glider, I think, because it's a D glider. It's not the highest level. But it does so well. And when I was flying in the Adriatic Circle, I was so amazed. And I was like, oh, I'm going to be able to fly to speed. And what I think that's something interesting. I think it's also when you fly acro, you're used to, you know, fly terminals with 18-meter gliders. And I would always say, people say, yeah, I'm a little bit above the limit. And you know, it's not the best because this and that. It kind of makes me laugh because at the end, you know, I always say, you know, a terminal is a terminal. When you can go up with your glider, you can go up with an acro glider.

And when you see those, for example, the Niviuk Skin or the Ozon Ultralight, I was flying with them in Annecy. And they climb in terminals, you know.

So, yeah, I mean, of course, if you're thinking about trying to optimize all the time, you know, of course, you'll get better results with your glider if you're in the middle range and stuff. But if you're a little bit heavier. If you're in the high end of the weight limit, you'll fly faster. You have a smaller turn. The glider will react better and be stronger and turbulent. So, for me, I like to fly my gliders and being heavy on it. But that's personal. But this is how I like it. Tom, a current theme we've been getting in the podcast is, you know, from guys that have been at the game a long time like you have. They've all talked about times where they've gone through. You know, a period where they're where they're not flying as confidently and they've had to, you know, wind things back, either going back to a B from a comp glider or a C or or just finding how to make it fun again.

Because it's really if it's not fun, we really shouldn't be doing it. It's too dangerous. Have you gone other than you said there was a couple of days at the beginning when you came back to the Adriatic expedition with Paul that you were definitely really not in the zone and then but you quickly found it. Have you had other times like that? And if you have, how have you approached it? Yeah, I think, you know, some when I started flying in Pakistan the first year I was I was following Ramon and Ramon was a much better pilot than I than I was at the time. So for me, it was kind of hard to follow him, you know, like because he was he was better. He knew better. He was a better pilot. He had more experience. I was, you know, you have to imagine a twenty two or twenty three.

You're a little guy that has some experience flying mountains and stuff, but you get to Pakistan and you get to fly at seven thousand meter high and with one of the best pilots in the world. So for me, it was very impressive. And at the time I was flying a safer glider, I was I was actually always choosing to take a big lighter instead of a sea glider. And I was taking my you know, I was being more careful. And and then I think it's slowly, slowly. I started. I started to trust him, you know, and and say, OK, if he does it, I can do it, too, which which is not always true, but and I started to take confident. But no, I I don't I don't think I've ever really gone backwards, really.

Like I've thought a few times, OK, now it's too dangerous or sometimes I need a few days. You know, when you haven't flown for a month, you need a few days to come back into it in smooth. Conditions. And but what I think is that there's there's days that you are in the zone, as you call it, and days that you're not. And you have to accept that some days you're not. And in one day when I was I was actually flying into the the Baltoro Glacier and with Ramon and he turned back because he thought it was not the day. And then I kind of flew away and did my flight. And it was kind of a day where I. I started to fly by myself, you know, after two years, three years, actually, in a row that I went to Pakistan with Ramon or with Horacio, with those guys that day, I decided, OK, that's it.

This is my day. I had a good feeling for him for it. And Ramon didn't have a good feeling for it. And there I went. And it was, you know, you started a little bit later with many good friends around you and stuff. And you were not really. But for me, I was young and I was looking up to those. Guys, I was learning everything, everything that I learned, I learned it from them. But one day I had to fly away, you know, or get out of the nest, if I can say so. And it happened. It happened in Pakistan and in the worst possible place. Yeah, no kidding. And I flew to I flew to the K2 that day, almost to the K2. I was 10 Ks away from K2 alone and I landed in on a glacier at the end of the day at four thousand six hundred meter high.

And I had to come in. It was crazy. I had to cross the Gondola, which is which is almost six thousand meter high with my gear and my glider and everything. And for two days they didn't they didn't know where I was. And I was so cool. I loved it. I thought, you know, it was for me the best, you know, the best moment of my life as a paragliding pilot to really not take my freedom, you know, but started to fly by myself and do my own thing, you know, and and do it well. Well, but then but then we had very, you know, in the Marquesas Islands, for example, Horacio crashed into the sea. I love that video. That's true. And the video is smooth.

You know, like the video is we we've been you know, it was much more radical than that. Yeah. Yeah. But landing in the ocean is is not a good idea. Yeah, it was crazy. And at the moment like this, when you realize it was a close call. And you and your best friend is out there, you know, and you think, well, we are so small. And I love that with paragliding also is to realize that it's a it's a very big lesson of humility. You know, it's I compare it to sailing and I, you know, much more about that than me. But it's that you feel like you're nothing when you're in the middle of the ocean or when you're really high out there in the mountains of Pakistan or even in the Alps or any mountain in the world. You can as soon as you're a little bit out there in the remote areas.

Yeah, you feel like you're so small. And that's actually what we are. We are very small and we just have to we're just playing there. You know, we have to respect the place and then maybe the mountain will, you know, bring us back home, you know, kind of. And it's it's a very you have to be very humble practicing your sport. I think it's it's people tend to look way too much about the kilometers and the altitude and how, you know, you land. And people would say, well, I've been in 46 minutes and this is my longest flight. When at the end of the day, you know, numbers or ranking or it doesn't really matter. You know, what matters is to is to enjoy the sport the way you want to enjoy it. Have a good time and not risk your life, you know, and and be a whole pilot at the end.

You know, that's the best thing I can say. And for us, it's been for quite long. It's been about numbers. Like, you know, I was calculating not long ago, Rebel Adventure asked me how many kilometers I've had done in bivouac flying. And I'm almost at 10,000 kilometer with with all the exalts and the Pyrenees and the New Zealand and all those mountain ranges. And I never actually counted. But I remember that for me, it felt important to do 900k or 1000k or that. And now it makes it feels to me. But it makes it's not important at all. What it's important is to to enjoy the way to have a great time, to have to share good moments with your friends, to come back with great stories.

And also, I think we have it's a small responsibility, but it's a really cool one is to to kind of how would you say, try to push people to get out of their comfort zone. And it's not for everyone, but but it's so cool when someone sends you a message and say, hey. You inspired me doing this crossing and I'll do it myself. And do you have any advice? And then then a few weeks later, you see them on Facebook. They're doing it. You know, it's so cool. It's just I love it. You know, and I and I know I know that people are looking also, you know, at you and they say, wow, this these travelers, they did. And it's my dream to do that one day. And then they they go and they do it and they don't have to do it like we do it.

But but it's so cool. And that's actually at some point someone will get inspired maybe and go out there. And and for some people, it's a life changing experience also, you know, to do a bivouac crossing or two. So it's I think it's it's cool. And now the technology, it's so amazing. I mean, it can be Instagram or Twitter or Facebook or whatever, what you know. But it's so easy to be out there and at the same time communicate with the with the followers. And and so it gives you so much much value. You know, keep pushing. Yeah. Yeah. And people send you messages and stuff and then you keep pushing. It's so good. I love the you know, the doing that trip, of course, with Will was just such a life moment because when you talk about records and, you know, if I was a better sound engineer or podcast interviewer, we would just ended it right there.

That was the most beautiful five minutes I've ever heard. Thank you. But but it was, you know, I I loved it. And Will's perspective really shifted all that for me, because when we first started talking about doing it, because it was Red Bull, of course, it had to be a record. You know, it had to be something bigger and longer than anybody had ever done. And so when I proposed it to Will at first, it was going to be to start where we did up near Brinkbride or McKenzie and fly all you know, we had to get all the way to Jackson in order for it to be, you know, bigger than the Adriatic. You know, it had to be big. And and and we'll just right away. You know, the first time I talked to him, I'd know. I've I'd never met Will at that point. Of course, I knew all about him. He was a legend. Yeah. Went and stuff before I even knew what paragliding was. But and he just said, Gavin, I'm not interested in that whatsoever.

You know, I did the X-Alps. I hated it. I'm not a backpacker. People have already backpacked the Rockies. You know, I'm a pilot and I want to fly it. And the only way to do this in style is because we can't really walk it anyway. There's the rivers are too big. The terrain is too gnarly. Yeah. You know, so we have to to fly it. And, you know, when you look at the distance, it was. It was 700 K. It took us over a month. You know, it's not. This is not a big distance. And but, you know, we took our time and we and we, you know, when the weather wasn't good for flying, we sat there and looked at the mountains and walked around. And it was just it was exquisite. And I love his line at the end of the movie was, you know, he said, you know, what we've just done is, you know, it's incredible.

And where can you where in the world can you do this? And he leaves it kind of hanging. Exactly. For a second. And he goes. And the answer is everywhere. You know, the answer is that we have barely touched the surface. And I love that about where we are with this sport. You know, and it's been it's been really amazing to see, you know, how where you've pushed it and in all the different places you've gone. And, you know, I think it is really inspiring and it's really inspiring to for people that are just getting into the sport and people that are in the sport to realize that we have barely touched the surface. That's pretty. Yeah, it's it's a world of possibilities. You know, I remember when we crossed New Zealand with 30s, when we arrive at the end, we were at the very last mountain and we could have flown down to Nelson.

And then we look at each other and thought, oh, let's let's make it last a little bit longer. You know, and so we landed on top of that mountain and slept there. And bad luck for us. The next day was shitty and we had to walk all the way to the coast. But anyway, it was, you know, for the whole distance, we had been thinking about that moment when we would get to Nelson. And when we got there. We thought we just want to go back to the mountains, you know, so spending more time is enjoying more, actually. And and it's not about the distance or the timing or it's about what you learn on the way. And what is cool, I think, in adventure and the world, the world adventures is most of the time is a little bit overused, you know, like, of course. But but but when you do get to some real adventure, some moments and you learn so much about yourself and about your friends and, you know, it's when you.

You get in a very difficult situation with your best friend out there and you have to help each other to make it out. And it's so rich, you know, and it's so intense that when you come back home and you are here in Belgium and then, oh, OK, it's normal to have hot water and shower. It's normal to open the fridge and have food every, you know, when you appreciate it, doesn't it makes you appreciate it so much. And it takes it takes only two to three days to not appreciate it anymore. You know what I mean? So it's it's. It's things we take for granted. The more you do, the more you want to. That's the that's the problem with what we do. That's the problem. But it's what you said earlier is that you can do it everywhere. It's true. Like my dream now is to make one of the search project that I really want to make is search, search in Europe and search in the States because those places, you know, still it has huge potential and pushing it in the Dolomites or pushing it in the in the Pyrenees or pushing it in countries like, for example.

Macedonia or Croatia or Romania, you know, there's still so much to discover. And I heard too many times in conferences, people saying, yeah, but for you, it's easy because you have big sponsors and this and that. And, you know, what I say is that you don't need to be an adventurer to take your tent and take off from your local site, land on the mountaintop, sleep there, have dinner and fly down in the next morning. And that's already a small adventure, you know. And and I really push people. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Well, Tom, I know you're incredibly busy and I could I could talk to you all day, man. This is fantastic. I think the I think our listeners are really going to enjoy this one. But why don't we wrap it up because we're almost an hour and a half in.

And and before we go, though, a couple of things, if you'd like to give a shout out to your to your sponsors and also how can people contact you? Because I know that, you know, one of the things that I have really appreciated about you over the years is. Just your accessibility and your your your passion really comes across. And, you know, as I was really getting into this, you were real valuable to me in terms of just sharing your stoke. And I know you're you're totally good with that, with people getting in touch with you. So how can people find you? And who would you like to thank? Yeah, well, I'd like to thank, you know, most of all, my closest friends. You know, it's interesting because my sponsors have become my really good friends. You know, I'm thinking about Jacob from Red Bull or. For Volkswagen or Niko at Garmin.

You know, those guys, they really they understood what we're doing. You know, one of the very first one and one of my really good friends is also Andre from from Gradient, of course, the guys at Super. I mean, I could name all of them, you know, but it's I'm not really into the commercial type of, you know, naming sponsors and stuff. But but they will recognize themselves. But what I think is that, you know, what is interesting is that it's it's not about money. Anymore. You know, it's good friends that understood that we're doing something and we still have a lot to do. And that's really that's amazing that I see that we didn't reach the full potential yet, you know, in terms of project and things that can be done. So it's it's very exciting. And to join me, I mean, really, I always say that to people, but just don't hesitate.

You know, it's you can do it by email on my website. It I directly answer my emails or on Facebook, you know, and just don't. Don't be scared. I mean, I remember when I met guys like Raul and like Ramon and I thought, well, those guys think, but actually they're we're all human and we're all very especially in the community. You know, we're all really easygoing. I mean, it's I know that if I have some advice to ask you, I'll give you a call and you'll spend an hour and I think that's how it has to be. So I'm happy to play my part in this situation also. And so, yeah, just don't don't hesitate if you guys need to to contact me. I'll be there. Fantastic. And then just finally. Tom, what's the name of your book and congratulations on just publishing that book and where can people find that?

Yeah, well, this this book is actually only in French at the moment, but it's a very good opportunity to learn French, but it's a book we made with with with the bank here in Belgium. And it's it's about all the links between the entrepreneurship and the adventure. You know, being an entrepreneur is being an adventurer. And and so it's it's all my little story. And what I've learned on the way and the book is called the creation, the adventure, the creation, the enterprise, but we'll look forward to that in English, maybe. And like you said, it's a good excuse for me to bone up on my French. Tom, thank you very, very much. I really appreciate the time. Thank you. An

amazing talk. I really enjoyed that one. I could have talked to Tom for hours and hours longer. We might have to do a second episode with him here at some point. Please leave a comment in the feedbacks there. And. Feedback space under the cloud based mayhem dot com, where you'll find that podcast and more. You can also find these on Stitcher or iTunes. Love to have you put a rating on there if you enjoyed this. As always, all we ask for is a buck a show following the footsteps of Dan Carlin's Hardcore History, a podcast that I am completely addicted to instead of sponsorship. What we're doing is just asking you to if you've enjoyed it, if you've got something out of it, give us a buck. People have been super generous. Our listeners have been. Super generous in the past. Thank you so much for that. I really appreciate it.

Many people have asked where you do do that donation. If you're listening to us on iTunes or Stitcher, of course, you don't have the links. But if you go to my website, cloud based mayhem dot com, you'll find all the podcasts there. And in each of the podcasts, there's a link for a donate button. Really appreciate it. It allows me to buy these guys beers and dinners when I see them and, you know, covers a lot of my time. I will continue doing it. I love doing it. I love dispensing all this knowledge. I'm obviously getting a great education. Myself, it's been a lot of fun and I got some great shows coming up for you sitting down tonight with Josh Cohn, the Josh bot. That's going to be a great talk. So I'll have that up next week. Thank you so much for listening. See you on the next one. Cheers.