9. Thomas de Dorlodot and the Endless SEARCH - Thomas de Dorlodot

Yeah, so it's funny, I mean, because like when I was in college, you know, she'd tell me, I'm like, well, what, you know, she's like, what do your family do? Oh, they work in communications. My mom's a teacher in her. She's like, oh, what is yours? And, you know, they're paraglider pilots. And I thought like, what? So they're unemployed? Words

there from Mr. Nick Greece from last week's podcast. If you missed that one, it's fantastic. Super inspiring to hear where Nick has come from and where he's going. I just got back from Iran, but we had a great conversation. You'll find it at the cloudbasemayhem.com. This week, I just got off the phone last night, Skype conversation with the Search Project Wizard and Red Bull athlete and traveler extraordinaire. Amazing pilot, Tom Tudorledo from Belgium. This guy has the life that all pilots in the world, I'm sure, very much envy, including myself. He has been around the world, across Africa, French Polynesia, all over the Himalayas.

He's flown with the greatest of the greats. He's competed in the X-Alps five times. He was the mastermind behind the Search Project with Volkswagen and Interact. And Red Bull, he's a Red Bull athlete, of course. Tom and I have been friends for quite a long time. We get to know each other a little bit better in this year's X-Alps and the 2015 X-Alps this July. Unfortunately, that race came to an end for him when he broke his foot crashing off a launch in Italy, which was very near where he had a major injury during the 80-year Attic Circle Expedition with Paul Guschlbauer, where he broke his back, got into some pretty nasty air and landing and kind of got unlucky. He's had a couple other accidents in his long career that started when he learned how to fly when he was 15 years old.

He's now 30, so he's spent half of his life underneath the wing. And we go deep into all kinds of stuff. I've got some great questions on a post I put out on Facebook before the talk from some of our fans and interested parties that wanted to hear about all kinds of things, from sponsorship to how he's approached risk and progression. come back from these accidents mentally as well as physically. Anyway, it's a fantastic conversation, super inspired by this guy. He's incredibly articulate and clearly passionate about what we all love. So without further ado, Alistair Durlow.

Hey, good morning. Good, good, and you? I

guess it's not really the morning for you. It's morning for me, but you're already well into your day over there in Europe, but it's nice to sit down with you. I wish we could have done this. We tried a little bit to do this at the start of the X-Alps, but that was just a little bit too much chaos for me. I couldn't get my act together.

True, true. Yeah, no, but thank you for waking up so early. No,

it's my pleasure. It's a real honor and a pleasure for me to sit down with you. I've got a whole bunch of questions. I posted a thing on Facebook yesterday and asked if our fans, if they had any questions for you, and they've got some great ones. But I just was reading before we got online. I was reading on your website your bio and all the amazing things you've done. I was watching your Search Projects trailer for the millionth time. God, that film is beautiful, and I'll have that up on my site when this goes live. But I'd love to just rewind the clock a little bit. You're still a very young guy, but you've been at this sport a long time. You got started when you were 15?

Yeah, I started really early. I was actually in boarding school here in Belgium, and a friend of mine was flying paragliding, and one day he came with his glider. And I started there, and since then I never stopped. I've actually been only paragliding for the last 15 years, which is actually half of my life now. I'm 30. So, yeah, it's been a long ride. I mean, it's so many memories and so many good and difficult moments also. But, yeah, it's been a really cool ride. Really nice.

And I definitely want to talk about some of those difficult moments. I know you've had a tough year, but I'd love to just find out. I mean, how do you go from being 15 and learning how to paraglide to becoming a Red Bull athlete? And was this your fifth X-Alps, this 2015 X-Alps? I mean, that's getting started really young. So I'd love to just find – you know, I didn't discover paragliding until I was well into my 30s. I'd love to just find out how that progression happened.

Well, I mean, to be honest, I started young, but I didn't have a car. I couldn't go to the flying places. And, you know, Belgium is a flat country. We don't have many mountains out here. But I started university, and at the same time, I didn't go to class too much. And I was always looking at the weather and looking at the sky. And with some of my friends, we were, like, so motivated that every doable, like, every kind of a good day, we would be out there and trying to fly as much as possible. But still, it was not enough. So I started to think about moving down to Spain. And when I was 20, I think 22 years old, I had been flying for seven years already, and my level was pretty good.

I was going to the Belgium championship, and I was flying a D glider already. And I did my first X-Alps. No, I think I was 21. Yeah, I was 21 when I did my first X-Alps. I was a little bit coming from nowhere. You know, being honest with you, it was like, yeah, this guy is coming from Belgium, flatlands. I didn't know much about the Alps. But still, I had a pretty good race. I was in the top. I

was in the top 10

most of the race. And then I had a small crash, and I broke my hand. It was almost nothing, but still, I had to cancel and leave the race. But it was a really cool, really good time. And then I started to think, okay, now if I want to get to the next level, I need to fly more. So I moved down to Spain, and I went to live in Granada, in south of Spain, in Andalusia. And that was a really good move because actually there I met Ramon Morillas, who is three times paramotor world champion, and Raul Rodriguez, at the time, many-time acrobatic world champion. He's a legend. And so for me, it was a great opportunity to learn with the best, you know. And so I started to spend a lot of time to, yeah, I was with Ramon almost every weekend, almost every day, actually, flying with him, helping him out with his competitions,

preparing the gear with him. He really told me a lot and helped me to learn flying paramotor, but also paragliding. And that's really when I started to get good at it. And then came the first small expeditions. I did a trip from Brussels to Istanbul. It was a 3,000-kilometer trip with the paramotor. Were you

already sponsored at this point?

No, I had really good contact with Red Bull. Okay. Since the X-outs and in Belgium, we didn't have many flying men, you know. And I was kind of pushing. And it was the time when Red Bull kind of liked to do what we now call the Garia-style things, you know. It was not always. So I remember one time I flew from the top of Machu Picchu in Peru, and I got arrested for that. And they kind of helped me to get out of jail, and we made good friends after that. Red Bull said, yeah, it's a cool story. Can you write something for us for the website? And that's pretty much how we got in contact.

Interesting. Oh, wow. It's always interesting to end up in jail. You know, my partner for a long time who you know, Jody MacDonald, she… You know, she's over in Africa doing a big shoot for LECA right now, and her goal was to get arrested. She said, you know, no serious photographer can ever claim they're a photographer if they haven't been in jail.

I've been in jail many times, too many times. Yeah, that's so a vibe, buddy. One time in Peru, and then I think only in Ethiopia when we crossed Africa with the search team, we were arrested only in Ethiopia five times. And sometimes it was really serious. One day we flew above a meter a day. And we didn't know. And we got arrested. It was really nasty. But so, yeah, that's how I got in contact with Red Bull. And at the time, you know, I was studying communication. So I knew a bit about editing, about photography, about writing a cool story. And so it was the two things at the same time. You know, on one side, I was, I think, good at what I was doing, flying, but also I could tell stories and do it well. And it's not only about competition, and it's not only about results.

But it's also about… Telling the story and coming back with cool footage and trying to build a community around this whole thing. So I didn't know

that about your background then, because one of the questions I wanted to ask, I mean, of course, you've been competing in the X-Alps, but I didn't know you were a competition pilot as well. I figured that was something, you know, I haven't, I only got into competitions in 2012. And, you know, I remember seeing you, you and Horatio did some acro at the start of the Superfinal in Colombia a couple years ago. But then you didn't compete in it. So you used to compete in competitions.

Yeah, but not in, I didn't go far. Like, I didn't really, I liked the format, but it's still, I needed more freedom, you know. And so I really love to go to the Belgium championship. I did the British championship, the French championship, competition like that, you know, because I have friends and it's cool. But many times I found myself doing, like, para-waiting and standing there and waiting for good weather. And also days that they would say, yeah, today we have to fly this direction and do this and that. And I had other plans or other ideas. But for me, it was, I didn't really get into it. You know, I like it and I was pushing and doing some results, I think. But still, it was not my thing. So when I started to do adventures and bivouac flying and started to cover distance with the paraglider or hiking or the X-Hulls format is much more my thing, I would say.

The Red Bull X-Hulls is really my, yeah, the way I like to practice. And if there is a competition I still want to do, it's the X-Hulls. But I wouldn't go for PWC. I mean, I think it's great and it's the Formula One, you know, and those guys fly really well. I really, when I look at it, I love it. But, for example, now I've been following the guys who are in India and they haven't been flying for four days. And it's, you know, I don't know. It's not really, I like to move around and choose my own path, kind of. I think people like that, too. It's quite

constrained, isn't it, in the competitions? I mean, I think you, I got into competitions because everybody kept telling me that, you know, that's how you learn. And, you know, you get more from a week in a competition than a year of flying. And I think that's true. You know, but I think you have to have, you have to have a really smart approach to competitions. I don't know if you were following, but we just returned from the Nationals and the Sierras. And, you know, the first two days, there were two major accidents. Both of them were lucky in that the pilots survived. But they were both very, very broken. And, I mean, I think that, you know, you have to approach them in the right way. You know? It can be very dangerous. Of course, the X-OPS is even more dangerous, obviously. But, anyway, so you did this long paramotor trip to Istanbul from your home, from Belgium?

Yeah. That's a long ways.

That was really cool. We had no budget at all. I mean, it was the first very small Denali made with Red Bull. And they said, okay, Tom, we like your idea and we will help you out. And so they helped us to pay the gasoline and, you know, the basics. But it was really a surviving trip. We were sleeping outside. And, you know, we were sleeping. We would land just next to the gas station. We filled the tank. We didn't have support or anything, you know. And we covered 3,000 kilometers in a month or something like that. It was really. We crossed the Alps. And we, yeah. And the paramotor were doing great. I mean, they survived the whole way. And we got arrested in Greece because we landed in a minefield. Because, you know, when you're in Turkey, you need a visa to get in Turkey. You need a stamp on your passport.

So we had to land the rest of the way. We just crossed the borders without asking anyone. But so we landed there and we landed just in a minefield. And we got arrested, of course. And it was, the whole story was pretty crazy. It was another arrest, yeah.

But then they were really, at the end, they were really friendly. We got lucky. We met one of the military guy was a paragliding pilot. So he kind of fixed everything for us. And we could keep going. But it was great. We crossed the border walking. And we took off again and flew all the way to the sea. To Istanbul. That was the first, let's say, big trip. And then I started to think, okay, this is, I mean, it's cool. We really enjoy doing this. And there is a way that we can talk about it, you know, share it as much as possible with videos, with photos, with, you know, small stories on the magazines and stuff. And we started to think that maybe we could make a living out of it, you know. And

when you say we, who are your teammates? I'm not sure.

At the time I was flying with a friend, it's called Maxim. But now, I mean, slowly, slowly, we start to work with a photographer and then a cameraman. And then, or as you, the rents, of course, is one of my best friends now and we fly a lot together. And this is really when we realized, okay, we could survive out of paragliding and this is what we wanna do. And so the first five years were like that, like really pushing and trying to find cool angles. And. most of it, you know. basically we were trying to have as much fun as possible and fly as much as possible and chair as much as possible. And yeah, I think now we kind of reached a point where I can say I'm making a living out of paragliding.

It was not my main goal, you know, but the good news is that now we can keep on pushing and imagine bigger trip, organize bigger expedition, and it's really cool. It's a lot of fun. This

is kind of your job now is just to dream big. I mean, I think you have probably the most enviable job in paragliding, and I like my job, but yeah, you're really setting an incredibly high standard. It's been impressive to watch, Tom. Fantastic stuff. If you could, like, this is kind of an ethereal question, and maybe you've already even answered it, but what is it about paragliding that just has you so wrapped up? And are you still as passionate today as you were when you first started flying? You're 15.

You know, it's a difficult question. Like, I have to, yeah, being honest with you, like, I don't know. I think for me, the very first flight I had was the best of my life. Yeah,

and it's the

best for everybody. Yeah, I think so. But then, you know, it's so much more than flying. Flying is the part of the iceberg, you know, that you can see, but the rest is the cultural thing, you know, discovering a new country, a new culture, meeting people, you know, the whole community is amazing also. It's so friendly, and I really love to spend time with other pilots. And there is so much to do, and I would say, like, if you fly in New Zealand, it wouldn't be the same that flying in France or flying in Patagonia or flying in South Africa. So it's kind of a different sport every time with different goals. And if I do get a little bit tired of cross country, then I go more acro, and then if I do want to come back to long distance or bivouac,

and I think it's changing so much. You know, all the... We have different approach, and so I'm still not tired about it. And when I crashed last year, I was really... It came to my mind. People were saying, okay, he's going to stop flying now, and he's going to get a real job and things like that. And it never crossed my mind. Like, really, from the moment I crashed, I only thought about coming back and flying again, and I'm so in love with it. And I think I made this choice 15 years ago. I decided to make my, you know, my life was going to be... all around paragliding. But having said that, I don't know, maybe in five years, I have different views, and I want to do something else. So, you know, a different approach. I think you know more about that because you've been sailing for 13 years, and then now you're flying, and maybe you go back to something else.

I think you just have to follow your art at the end. You know, it's do what you enjoy. And as long as you enjoy, and as long as you're passionate about it, you will have energy to share, to push, and to keep going. But if... If one day I wake up and I'm sick of it, or tired of it, then I'll just do something else, I think. But... Cross that

bridge when you get to it.

Yeah, I think you... Yeah, because also, I mean, I had this discussion with Brad Sander a few years ago in Pakistan, and he talked... He said to me, you know, I don't embrace the conditions anymore. I don't... I don't like it so much than before. I don't feel so motivated. And it's also when it gets dangerous because, you know, we always... We're pushing a little bit higher, a little bit further, a little bit faster, a little bit closer to the walls. But you have to be 100 % if you do that. And if you're not at 100%, or if you're not fully motivated, it can even get dangerous, I think. So it's...

This is something I really wanted to dive into you. And it's a great... It's a great bridge, talking about Brad Sander. As you know, he was one of my partners when we did the Sierra trip, the Sierra movie. And he crashed really badly the very first day. And, you know, it was... It was... You know, I've had seen... I've had quite a few friends that have had really bad accidents like that where, in fact, one of the questions that came through on Facebook yesterday when I put out that I was going to be talking to you, I think Miles... No, let's see. Let me just find it because it was... It was a really good question. Yeah, Miles Connolly wanted to know, like, the best flying choices you've made versus the worst. And, you know, that was one of those where you could...

You could

see that Brad was, you know, 70%. He was flying scared. And he just wasn't all there and really questioning everything. You could see it in his eyes. And I've known quite a few people who have, you know, have been like that when they're trying to get back in the game. They're trying to get back on top or where they... Even where they were. I know James Bradley is a good friend of mine. And he had a question for you as well in regards to this. He had a couple of scary moments. He

was at

the Swiss... I think it was a Swiss League event or maybe on the Swiss Nationals this summer. He threw his reserve one day and kind of had a crash another day. And he was out at the Sierras with us and was really struggling mentally. And so he wanted me to ask you just how you... You know, how do you come back from a broken back mentally? Because, you know, in seeing these other accidents, you know, from an outsider's perspective or at least with Brad, you know, we all talked about it a lot afterwards. You know, we had 18 days of that trip to go. He crashed on the very first day. And we all, you know, the consensus was, well, he shouldn't... He just shouldn't have been in the air. You really need to recognize these times where you aren't on your game. And to recover that game, I think people go about it in different ways.

But I'd love to know... I'd love to find out how you went about it because you... That was a major accident.

I think you have to be really honest with yourself and just accept the fact that it will take time, you know. And it's not that you crash. Then the next day, it's, oh, it's all good. It's like nothing happened. Of course, you're... I always compare it to, you know, when you have a big party and you get drunk and you drink a lot of vodka. And then the next morning, you smell... You have the smell of vodka and you will never take a drink, you know. Your brain is saying no, you know. It's like, no, don't do that again. And it's a little bit the same, you know. When I crashed, I broke my back. I broke many bones. And I stayed for weeks in hospitals and stuff. But since the day I crashed, I really wanted to go back and to finish this Adriatic Circle trip that I started with Paul Guschlbauer.

And when we came back a year after, like maybe eight months later, we arrived at the site of the crash. And I look at this tree and I thought, well, still there is a thousand kilometers to go. And I didn't want to go, like really. My whole body was saying, no, why? Are you stupid or what? You know, why do you come back? But at the same time, a part of me wanted to overcome this fear. And I, you know, I cannot turn back. You know, I have to go all the way. And Paul was really, really good to me. Like he said, you know, we take our time slowly, slowly, one day after the other. If you don't like it, we'll end. And a day later or two days later, I was back at my best level.

Like I was not thinking about it anymore. I think you have to get back on the horse, you know. Was

this something? Would you say that you, you know, you had a program? I know in one of your bios it mentioned that you had a coach. Do you still have a coach?

Yeah, yeah, I do. And I think, yeah, when I crashed and I came back last year, for example, I decided I started to fly again in Colombia. Because, you know, Valle de Bravo and Joldanillo and stuff, it's the perfect place to come back because the thermal is smooth. It's not big mountains. You usually don't get strong wind. It's flyable every day. You get lots of flying hours. And so I went back to the mountains with a sea glider. I don't have problems flying with sea gliders. You know, they're great. They're doing amazing gliders now. So I flew with that and we crossed the whole country. We did the Travesia del Coca, which was, it was not huge. It was 450 kilometers or something like that.

But it was great to come back to it and fly there and get lots of flying hours. But really, after two or three days, I was like, oh, I'm going to fly. And after two or three days, I was back. It's not that now when it gets stressful, I get, I block or anything like that. I really, I feel great when I fly. And I just, the thing is, and that's really hard to say, but when I crashed, I usually I always used to say that if you crash, it's because you made a mistake somewhere, you know. And it can be because you were tired or you're not flying with the right gear or you're stressed or whatever, you're flying in bad conditions. But that day, really, it was OK. The wind was strong, but it was nothing extreme. And I came to the ground like I was flying down above a huge field. It was no obstacles, no nothing.

And Paul was flying just in front of me and nothing happened. He landed. And when I came, I got a turbulence and I crashed. And it's now I kind of have to live with that. Like with the fact that paragliding is actually dangerous. There is that

uncontrolled aspect. It was. And

even if I if I I think that I could have been more focused maybe or I could have chosen maybe a safer place to land or I could have landed higher in altitude and stuff, but there is this point where you're just going down. There is no conditions anymore. The wind is strong and it's just OK. Just playing with your luck, you know, kind of. And it happens to everyone. And I think now I have to when I go flying, I know there is a big risk or there is a risk to get hurt. But either you accept it or you go home. And I decided to accept it because my whole, you know, everything I love is out there. You know, so it's it would be impossible for me to renounce and say, OK, no, I stopped flying because of the dangers. I just have to do it with more.

I have to be as careful as I can. And, you know, and that's it. I

think we have to do it. You know, I think we have to be like you said, I liked your advice that you have to be really honest with yourself in the very first episode of this podcast. It was a recording, actually, that it wasn't meant for a podcast. We sat down with Bill Belcourt, who's kind of our he's our Yoda over here. You know, he's kind of everybody's mentor. He's been at the game a long time. And he has a concept of he calls it bringing it, you know, where you, you know, to fly cross country that any time you're you're really pushing it or really going for distance or going for a win in a race. You. Often have to put your glider in a in a bad place. And yeah, and if you're not mentally prepared to do that, you just shouldn't be in the air that day. That's just not, you know, because I I have very few big flights that have been

mellow the whole way, you know, especially in a place like the Alps. When I was training, you know, this this spring for the X ops, I was trying to fly the course and you and I actually got quite close together. When you were finishing your Adriatic circle and it was actually near near your crash, I was I was doing a big triangle from from Mornara and Bellinzona. And it was quite a strong north Fern day. And I flew up the Dome of Dosella and then tried to get over the simplon and it was too strong there. And I backed out, and I and I went up to the Newfoundland, and it was just smooth and beautiful, and it was actually the day that Peter Kleinman set the record from Mornara, was just incredibly lovely, and I flew instead of flying back to Mornara. I really wanted to check out what we call the big C, you know, towards the Arollo pass and back down to Bellinzona.

And so I flew over the pass and it was lovely, lovely, lovely until I got to the Arollo and then it was just that's the area. Yeah. The North Fern was was dumping into there. And, you know, it literally from, you know, a class one flight to just like fighting for my life. And and, you know, and when that happens, you just have to you have to bring it. You have to be you have to that will happen if you're going to paraglide. And you have to go and fight. You have to fight.

Very often I look at my letter and I say, is that all you have? Like, you know, I'm in fighting mode. And I think that like the best advice I could give to any pilot is to is to fly a little bit of acrobatic. Because it's I've learned so much from Horacio. Like, really, it's it's now that if I do have to stall my letters or to do anything or if I'm twisted or things like that, I'm so much more concentrated and so much more focused than before. Before. I just lose my mind and I wouldn't know what to do. But so acrobatic is really good, really good for that. And I totally agree with what you say. It's also when we fly in Pakistan, for example, is where you have to be on the fighting mode and what I always say to pilots who kind of hesitate and are not really sure, as I say, if there is a doubt, there is no doubt.

You know what I mean? It's like if you if you think you shouldn't fly, then you shouldn't fly. You know, or if you and it's very simple, but I think it's it's the basic. And we're at the end. We're just playing with our lives from time to time. And it's if you have a bad feeling, you should listen to your intuition and just stay down and no problem with that. And the problem is with the group and the team spirit and people would be pushing and say, hey, come on, man, don't be don't be a pussy. Just go for it. And no, actually, we should respect. I mean, I have a lot of respect for those guys who, for example, I'm thinking about Michael Gabbard, who is a really good friend. I was flying with him the day he decided to stop the except, you know, this year and we were flying together and he was really nasty. He was very turbulent. And I have to say was kind of enjoying it.

And I think it's a mixture of we are really tired. We we know we can fly those conditions to gliders safe. So I was having a good time, but I could tell he was not having a good time. And he was he couldn't see the point anymore of pushing so much and so hard and taking so many risks, so much risk to just be maybe getting to the top 10 or, you know, it didn't make sense to him. So he turned he really we were flying together and he turned around and went straight down to the valley. And I

remember that I remember that day. I was I was you know, he he had caught up with me at the I had a couple of really bad days and fell off the front and and he caught up to me near St. Moritz the night before. And then the next day, you know, we flew into that pea soup down near Chiavenna. And I remember watching his track log where he just said, you know what, fuck this, I've had enough. And I understood it because that was a hard section to get through. I was that was a low point for me as well, where it was just like, my God, this is just. Yeah. And, you know, what I

really like is that we had this conversation and he called me and said, what do you think and this and that and we respond. We have the same sponsor, you know, and so he called Gradient. And I know that Andres from Gradient said, man, don't worry. There's nothing to prove. You know, the most important is yet that you you come out in one piece. And, you know, and so I really appreciate that. It was the same when I crashed. You know, when you crash, you think, OK, now everyone's going to let me down, you know, because I crashed and this and that. And and at the end, it was so good to see that the sponsor were still there. We're still supporting a lot, you know, and I've heard from Red Bull or Volkswagen coming, don't worry, get back on your feet, take your time as long as you need. And, you know, and that's that's the for you and I, it's the basic, you know.

But but also when we have been pushing so much and I never stopped for the last 10 years, it was always an expedition. You know, from one project to the other. It was good to hear that you don't have to be 100 percent all the time. You know, you can sometimes rest. And, you know, yeah.

Compare the accident with your back and your wrist in the X-Alps. What happened? And, you know, because you and I haven't had a chance to talk except by a couple of quick notes via Facebook, what happened with that accident? The second one that

this this time it was I have to say it was a mistake. I made a mistake there. I was. We were flying. And we we were in a pretty good position. There was a I was about an hour

behind you, by the way, that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that cool. Yeah, no, we had had a very good day, really flying in fighting mode and really having a good time. And then we decided to not to walk too much because we had a good mountain, a good flying site nearby. So we had a good night. I had a good breakfast. I was really fit in. You know, you can see in these houses that the top 10 at the beginning, it's like people pushing a lot, getting really tired. And for me, I work kind of a I'm kind of a diesel motor. You know, I start slow and then try to get back into it. And it was happening at that time. I was really feeling strong and stuff. So it was good. But anyway, we decided to we landed there because we did a big transition and we arrived too low.

So we landed there with 30. We walked back up to the to the mountain and then it was. We had we could have taken off from one place, but it was not the best place. There were some cables below a few trees and stuff. So we started to climb a little bit higher from the call. And there was really steep, like really, really steep. And Feldy took a first and he did it perfectly. I really thought, OK, that's that's not it doesn't look too hard, but it was very steep, so steep that if you if you miss your takeoff, you're most likely going to fall down the door the whole way, you know, and that's what happened. And I inflated my glider. But it's the line state made some nuts. You know, it stayed tangled a little bit in the rocks. And then when it when the glider came above my head, I felt some pressure, but not enough.

But, you know, the typical situation where you think, OK, no problem, I jump in and it's going to fly anyway. It might take a few seconds, but it will fly. But it didn't because the wind was sketchy and it never flew. And so I fell down. But I felt first, I think I felt eight meters or six meters. I crashed. I crashed and then I jumped over the rocks and then fell down. And there I could see 150 or maybe 200 meters of steep rocks. You know, I was I was going to I really I had the time to think, OK, this is it. And you know what I thought? It's a little bit crazy to say that, but I thought, hey, no worries is not going to hurt because I remember from the last crash, it didn't really hurt. At the moment you crash, the light goes off basically strong and so violent that. And I remember thinking that when I saw the fall, I was going to, you know, go through, I thought, OK, this is not going to hurt.

That's it. You know, and and then my letter got my lines got tangled in the rocks and all my right side, all the right lines of the gliders of the glider broke. And so I only had lines on my left side. The left riser was still holding me. And so I hit the rock really hard with my foot and I only broke my foot. But it was no is nothing in regards of the the. The whole situation, you know.

Right. Yeah. So but it sounds like a little bit of luck there, too.

Yeah. And it took two hours to two and a half hours for the helicopter to come. And what is a little bit crazy is that it was the same helicopter than a year before. Ah, you're kidding. Oh, my God. Is and they said, do you want to go to Berlin? So now Lugano. And I said, OK, let's go to Berlin because I have friends there. So I arrived there. And yeah, it sounds crazy. I had the same Red Bull hat. I had the same thing. I had my backpack with me and they recognized me, you know, because I made some good friends there, I stayed quite a long time. So and they used to call me the Iron Man because when I crashed, I broke all my bones, but I was kind of OK. And so they're like, oh, the Iron Man is back. I felt I felt really stupid, to be honest.

But but at the same time, you know, it's you know, it can happen. And this time, this time, blame is on me, like really. I, I should have found a better spot. But, you know, you know how the exhaust is, you know, that day fairly landed. It was sick at the end of the day. And I think we would have done this flight together. I mean, it was the the plan. So but you never know. And I didn't I didn't look too much for the for the results. I was really there for the game and the adventure. So, yeah,

Louise Tapper is the was a supporter for Nick Naden's Team New Zealand. And I think you've already answered this question. But he wanted.

I wanted to

know, you know, would you will you do it again? You've already said you're really excited to do again. So I think we already know that. But and would you would you do it if you weren't a Red Bull athlete? Was this something you'd be attracted to and wanted to do regardless?

Yeah, I think it's it's for me, it's the old adventure. I think there's a few things that the cells have been evolving so much. The first time I was 21 years old and I remember I went to the McDonald's. The first evening to get dinner, you know, and it was it was it was like this. I listened to the podcast of Nadescale and those guys. And it was exactly that. You know, we would arrive there and we would we were arriving the day before the start kind of, you know, and there was nothing like now. Now it's so well organized and everything is so professional and the people approach it very professionally. But but at the time I was sleeping in the back of my car. I had a 1000 euro budget for the whole trip. And we were only eating pasta three times a day.

My supporter was on holidays. I told my supporter, yeah, come on. It was a good friend of mine. I said, man, we will have a great time. You can fly, you can enjoy, you can visit the places we go and stuff. So I would see him like one or twice per day. You know, it was so different. And we would go always by teams. Like I would always join the French or the Germans or the Austrian and we would go together. I would really if someone was five K in front, it would give you a call. And say, hey, I wait for you. We go together. And it was really more more friendly, not a friendly competition because people were still pushing quite a lot and we didn't have time limits. So we were pushing by night. So but it was different when I'm trying to say that it's it's it's so it's getting faster and it's getting more interesting and each time more.

And and I still see that my level is getting I'm getting better at it. I get I have more experience. So I still think I have. Something to do. And also, I never made it to Monaco, which I think this year would have been a really good year to make it to Monaco. But I never made it to Monaco. So I really have to finish this.

Yeah. Yeah. It's I you know, I've reflected a lot. I'm actually working on a book about the exops. And I'd like to hear about your book that you just published as well. But it's you know, this was my first one. And it was you know, I've been very fortunate to have a lot of incredible experiences in my life and have done a lot of expeditions. And God, it was fun. It was just an outrage. It's a good time. It was just an outrageously good time. It was just so much fun. You know,

you will do it again. You want to ask all

for sure. You know, we were on the way up to the Geisberg day one. You know, Ben, my kind of ground supporter, my my trainer, he came down from the top to bring me some water and some goo and stuff. And and from there on the way up, we were already talking about the second one. The whole the whole time through, we were talking about the second one, you know, and I think what's what's what's really exciting for for us is it is a team is because we were rookies. We made so many mistakes, you know, and they were all completely forgivable mistakes. They were mistakes that we knew we would make. And, you know, like I didn't have the right maps on my phone. And we made we made a lot of, you know, a lot of pretty much all the mistakes were were were mostly mistakes I made in the air, but also just rushing, you know. And that's what that was one of the pieces of advice.

You gave me before the race, you know, don't rush, don't rush. And even with everybody telling me that we still rushed and when we would rush, you know, my my best day was the day after your injury as well, I landed, I got caught in the valley winds and landed about 10 k's. What a flight. Yeah. And I was in

the hospital looking at your crack. And that was a big day, you

know. And it was again, it was the only day it was one of the day other than the first day where I flew well because I was rested, you know, I landed that day and my feet my feet were annihilated and Bruce wanted me to rush off because Ferdi and all those guys were just in front of me and I said, no, I'm going to sleep. I'm going to take care of my feet and and we're going to thrash those guys tomorrow because I'm going to fly straight through where they all went up around the big sea. And, you know, and it was kind of like if it'll work and we'll be a hero move or it won't work and we'll be done. And but either way, it'll be fun. And so it worked till we got lucky. No,

but you did great. You know, before the the Adriatic Circle, I was at Paul Bauer's place and his dad said to me, if you want to be fast, you have to go slow, you know. Yeah. And I kind of like the saying, you know, it's like in the in the exhalts, it's it's totally this, you know, like if you see guys like Ferdi, for example, Ferdinand van Skelven from Holland is he's just really thinking about the next move and doing his own thing. And it works and it pays off. You know, when people are I was I was the first three or four days I was with the French guys and one of the youngest one. And so and he was he was pushing so he was running all day. He was running. Yeah. But but in the evening I was with him. Yeah. Yeah. And he would be destroyed. And so, yeah, it's just you have to really it's it's a very

strategical race and really complicated and it's it's so good at the same time. It's I think this year was a really special year because he was very dangerous for everyone. I think we all agreed on that the conditions were really the best conditions we could have and we were flying in very crazy conditions. I remember the day I flew to Brenta. I had a really good flight that day. And when I landed, I thought, OK, I left them behind for sure. You know, I was flying with 10 other guys and I thought with this kind of flying, with the risk I took, I left them behind for sure. And then they came and they landed one after the other. And and I thought, this is crazy. You know, the level is going so high. But it's interesting and it's nothing like people would look at it. They they are in front of the computer and they think, oh, I would have gone there because it's this or this phase or this, but I think people don't really realize what we're going through with the winds and the valley winds and the conditions that we encounter on the way that

the what I always call my big day, day eight, the day after you got hurt when I went from from Bellinzona to Orsier, you know, across the Matterhorn at one point that day I was with Powell. The the no, sorry, I was with the Polish pilot. Yeah. Yeah. And and I realized, my God, you know, I've been flying all day. I haven't seen one recreational pilot, you know, in one of the most busy places to fly in Switzerland. And then I realized, you know, because it was such hard work that day, it was there was so much wind. And I think that when people look at it from the outside and they see us doing these big flights, they think, oh, it must be, you know, it must be really nice. But, you know, most of the days, you know, the first day being the major exception were not days I would choose to go fly a paraglider, there'd be days I'd go mountain biking or something, you know, it was that was really interesting.

We had a long conversation. I don't want to get too much off base here with your talk. But, you know, it was I had a really interesting talk in Monaco the first the night I got in with with Dura Gotti and Paul and and Petio. And, you know, Dura Gotti was shaking when he was talking about his trip. He was he was really, you know, and he's he's crazy. I train with him in the spring. I mean, he he's a really skilled autopilot and he pushes really hard and he flew on a day that I would have never flown when we were training near near his house. And it actually was in Switzerland, but it's just across the turn point in St. Moritz. And it was windy. It was horrific. And he launched and I thought, God, I don't and it really scared me because I don't I thought I don't think I would launch in this in the race either.

You know, and but, you know, he had we all had we all had a scary, very scary calls. And I think the outside world, maybe they do that, but I think that, you know, it's it's one of these it's it's an incredible race because you have to continually push that line. And I think, like you said, if you're in the right frame of mind, you know, before the race, I had several weeks when I was there training. I wasn't in that frame of mind. I was flying well, but but I you know, when things would happen, I was constantly looking at my glider going, oh, shit, what was that? What was that? You know, where is it suddenly in the race? You get more in the flow. And when that stuff happens, you're like like you say, you look at your glider and go, come on.

Is that

all you got? Yeah,

I think it's also because we're we're flying and we're really so tired. And I think sometimes we don't realize anymore how dangerous it is. Like, I'm not saying that we're not focused. But the thing is, when you've slept four hours and walk thirty five K in the morning before takeoff, it's it's we're there, but not not as much as if you had a good breakfast, a good night. If you were on radio with your friends and stuff, you know, it's. But at the same time, what I think is what is amazing with the six hours is that it gives you it shows you the possibility and what is possible to do with paraglider, I would never thought that it was possible to fly so much in the lee side, for example, and cover distance with very strong winds and things like that. And it's it's interesting. And you see that actually paragliding is capable of amazing, amazing things.

And it's it's interesting. I think it's a very good way to learn. And I think for all of us, it's such a cool, cool event. And yeah, to answer your question, I think I'll go again. And even even if I was not sponsored by Red Bull anymore, I would really want to to take part and be there for sure. Yeah, well,

let's let's switch gears. Another another question that came through by a gentleman named Thorlake from from Norway, he he really wants to go to Greenland next summer and fly. And it sounds like maybe he doesn't have, you know, a whole lot of hours. And so he wanted me to ask you, you know, you have flown all across Africa and Pakistan and you flew over Victoria. You

flew the

Balls and you flew Paramotors and the Marquesas. And so I want to ask you what's next with your search projects. But when you go to all these different places, how do you he wanted to know, how do you get over your fears of flying a new place? Because some of these places are are obvious and some are not. You know, some some you don't you don't know the line. And when I did the trip with Will last year across the Canadian Rockies, we had no idea what was ahead of us. So how do you how do you approach that side

You know, it's interesting. It's a very good question because I think we're we have been educated to get there, you know, to get to a flying site, to get to to check the windsock, to talk with other pilots about dangers around and things like that. And so people only they've only been doing that. You know, they've only known this kind of flying. Of course, for them, it's really hard to understand that we just go to any mountain, take off and go, you know. But at the end, it's a little bit also what we do in the Alps, you know, and you realize that this is what it's made for a paraglider. It's just to, you know, you get there, you check the mountain, you think, OK, the wind is coming from that direction, it should be clean to launch there.

Let's go. And with the time and the experience, I realized that most of the time it works. And even when you think it would, it would not work, you know, having said that, of course, it's it's important to analyze the weather, to analyze the conditions, to analyze the place, to try to talk to local pilots and stuff. But really, like if you have a little bit of skills, you should be able to improvise. And we've been doing that the whole way when we were in Africa. We never almost never flew on the official takeoff or official flying site. And at the end it works. And I think it was the same for you when you when you did your your big crossing. It's just you have to improvise and you check the maps, you check Google Earth, you climb a mountain, you take off and you go.

And this is really how I like to practice paragliding. For me, it's this feeling of having 10 kilo on your backpack, on your back, on your back and climb a mountain and just feel free to take off or not to choose your place. And I just love this feeling of flying a place for the first time. It's the best feeling you can get, you know, and I would say to these guys, of course, Greenland, I know that the place can be pretty windy, which is in a way not so good, but also good because if you know the direction of the wind and if you can really analyze where it comes from, how strong and stuff, then you can think, OK, this phase will work, this won't work. This is in the lee side. And at the end is a very simple game, you know, it's just taking off in the wind.

And it's it looks complicated because we are not used to it. But as soon as you start, uh, improvising and going around with a glider and taking off from hills and little mountains and then slowly, slowly you start pushing, you realize that actually the part later is made for that. It's and

it's it's confidence, isn't it? You know, when you see when you see videos of, you know, Chrigel launching in 40 mile an hour winds on steep slopes, you can see that he knows he's got that move. And that's just from hours and hours and hours of spending time on the ground. You know, I heard stories of him practicing and 60 kilometer an hour winds on snow where, you know, that just to see how much wind he can handle. And, you know, not many people are willing to go do that. And, you know, you see it with him. I just watching some some highlight videos of the XOPS this year yesterday. And, you know, he went in top landed in a spot with that was kind of an old very steep and it was a it was a clear cut, you know, and there was all these big stumps. And he just you could see that he did it without thinking about it.

He just did it like, yeah, I know I have that move and, you know, that fly on a wall move where you like pointed at the hill and land and he did it just so smoothly. You know, I tried that a little bit on the on the Canada trip and just completely botched him. I mean, if you screw that up, break your back. It's a it's a hard move to do. And and he just does it without you know, it's just it's just one of the things in his toolkit, you know,

it's all practice, you know, it's all practice. And it's at the end, it's I always say, you know, the same is that you have to go step by step and slowly, slowly. And you start with a local flying side that people have talked to you about and that there is a possible takeoff and then you go there, you take off, you do your thing, you know, slow is really cool, is that the day you arrive, for example, in the Malaya and and you you look at a mountain from far down in the valley and think, OK, I think it's possible to take off there. And you do and you fly a hundred K. It's magical. I mean, it's it's the most, you know, you know, the feeling. And it's and I and I think people should try to practice that more. And also it's the piloting schools and stuff, you know, they should bring people out, you know, because I compared to skiing, you know, you can either ski on the pist and on the ski resort or you can ski, you know, off track and

go in the powder and it's it's totally different game, of course. But at the end, it's the same sport. So it's just you just need skills, you know, and it's you don't need much as long as you take your time and you really analyze at the end. You sit on the mountain and if the wind is too strong, it's too strong. That's it. You know, if it's the wrong direction, it's the wrong direction. But but it's it's not that complicated. And I think places like, for example, the Pyrenees or the Alps, it's really the perfect place because you have to go all around the Alps, you know, everywhere. I mean, on every mountain, we could always find a place to take off and you don't always need really good skills. Yeah,

yeah, yeah. If when you look back, when you look back at your career is certainly your career in flying. Have there been any kind of aha moments? Have there been any times either through accidents or victories or hard times or any of the in during the search projects where you've had any kind of aha moments about what you're doing and by aha moment, I mean, like where you've really sorted something out or figured something out or, you know, you've just advanced to a completely new level.

Yeah. I think, you know, well, in Pakistan, for example, one day I was flying without my oxygen and I went too high without oxygen and I almost lost consciousness and I couldn't see anymore. That was a very close call. And I learned a lot from that. I mean, accident and big flight and very tricky situation. I found myself, I think, too many times that and every time you think, OK, that was another close call. You don't know if it was a close call or if it's you saying that as a dangerous. I don't know, really. But but many times I kind of I think reached my limits. And but but with the time I'm more and more I'm getting wiser, you know.

And for example, when we were in New Zealand, we crossed New Zealand, we felt the end halfway, we realized it was too dangerous. We were pushing too much. We were really on speed bar all the time, flying. Strong winds. We almost crashed one time. We actually crashed in threes and it was just getting too dangerous. And so halfway we said, OK, now we have to just, you know, go slow and take our time and only only fly in good days and and the second half of the trip took actually half the time of the first half of the trip. You know what I mean? We went we went much faster. I've learned so many things about about this, you know, and but I think the difficult is when you when you have a big project, like when I crossed the Pyrenees alone

halfway, I had really bad weather and I thought, OK, I'm not going to do it. I don't have time anymore. And you start to kind of being depressed and stuff. But that's why it's not the worst. I think for me, the hardest part, it's sometimes to deal with, you know, when you organize, for example, a crossing of Africa or a sailing boat for three months in the Pacific Islands, we're talking about big amounts of money, you know, and a lot of stress and big teams. We have two cameramen. We have one photographer, one sound master, sound designer. You know, it's many pilots and it's all those people that rely on you. And and you have, you know, big sponsors. They're waiting for results and stuff. So we had some some stressing stressful moments where we thought, OK,

we're not going to be able to deliver because the weather is not good and this and that and and it comes to a totally different sport. You know, it's managing. It's trying to manage a team, you know, and and yeah. And so that's I've learned so much, you know, on the way. But I think the most also the difficult parts, of course, were the big accidents, you know, and the friends we've lost on the way. Yeah,

I read it. I read in your bio you lost a good friend. Do you want to talk about that?

Yeah, I mean, I mean, I was you know, we all know Antoine Montand. It was not it was not really really a good friend, but it was someone I really I really admired. And we were actually talking to about organizing a project in Pakistan together. And the plan was to fly, you know, use the paraglider to land on Virgin Mountain tops and do and speed right down those peaks. You know, that was that was a very, very cool plan. And we were talking about it and stuff and then the accident happened. And and that was really hard for me to see that and such a cool guy, you know. But then I have also another story of a friend I met in Nepal and we flew together for one month and learned acro together and he made a stupid mistake.

He decided to jump from his paraglider above the water. He wanted to celebrate this. I think one month there in Nepal or something like that. And he jumped and he was he was higher than he thought. You know, when you're above water, you never really. You never really know. And he did this this thing, you know, and he yeah, he died. And so it's like we've we've seen too many accidents last year when I was flying in Colombia, I was flying with Horacio and we flew with a local. I think it was a Swiss pilot. And we two days later, they called us and they say, oh, this guy you were flying with, well, he crashed yesterday is that, you know, and it's that it's always too much, you know, it's always too hard to take and it's some of the best.

You know, Matias Hutton or Alejandro, the cousin of Horacio and the brother of Raul and Felix. Those guys were really good, you know, some of the best in their game. And they really knew what they were doing. And still they're not they're not here anymore. You know, so it's I think this is the hardest part. And I think sadly, we will still there are some other people will go. You know, yeah, of course. So I really hope that that's and we have to give a good example to the people who are following. And, you know, by doing things with, you know, trying to be smart in the way we practice paragliding and not trying a bad example, you know,

absolutely on that on that theme. Tom, if you could if you could go back now and tell your 15 year old self, if you could give your 15 year old self some advice, what would it be?

That's interesting. You know, I I think it's the more you fly, the safer you are, you know, so I would say fly more. I would I would I would have I would I would tell him to go more into acrobatics because I know that for many of the pilots out there, they all think that acro is dangerous. And many people think that acrobatic is dangerous. But if you look at the citizens and competitions, you know, it's it's clear that it's cross country is more dangerous than acro. Sure. And so, yeah, by far. And but but but acro, you know, when you see when you see Raul or Felix or Horacio or Pál Takáts, when those guys fly cross country, you know, the first the first cross country flight that I did with Horacio, he hadn't been flying for 10 years cross country and he flew 200 kilometers in Pakistan.

They know how to

handle their glider.

And on the radio, he was saying he was saying, man, I'm not. I used to stay so high, you know, because I have altitude and burn it down. Right. And then it was and because they can control, you know, and and if you can control most of what happened, it's already you know, you can use your your head for something else, you know, to concentrate on the next terminal, on the next transition, on the you don't have to be fighting with your glider all the time and you you you're much safer. I've seen accidents that it could have been solved if the guy could handle a full stall, for example, or a twist or and sometimes you see accidents. And when you look at it, you think, man, come on, just one

SIV course and this guy would have been safe. You know, so I think that that's what I would say. And and yeah, and don't rush. You know, I think what happens as a professional pilot is that people think when you go on a big traverse, like you think, OK, people are looking at us, we have to go fast and this and that. And people tend to push a lot when actually a day more or a day less, it makes no difference. You know, yeah, absolutely. And I think people should accept that it's a dangerous, you know, sometimes it can be dangerous and just respect that and take time and be safer is not it's not a problem. I mean, yeah, I don't know. It took me a long time to understand.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's it's it's interesting. And I'm really surprised that you say acro, that was literally the first thing I thought of the night I got into Monaco, as I said, you know, I already knew I wanted to do the ex-ops again and I'm dying to do it again already. But that was the first thing I've always been really interested in acro, but we don't have very good places to train here. And, you know, but I've made that too much of an excuse. I have a very good friend down in Salt Lake who's now tumbling and he's become very proficient and he's getting ready to go. And so he and I are going to train all winter. And I but I thought that that was my first takeaway was that, you know, for me to do this safely, it's like when people people should not participate in cross country if they don't have SIV, current SIV under their belt.

I get angry about that, you know, like it's just you just you're really that's really not something you should do. It's just too dangerous, you know. And if you have SIV, you have the confidence. And like you say, you know, you can get out of bad situations very fast. I had to full stall my glider three times coming out of the the Matterhorn and I was quite low, you know, I didn't really have the time to do it, but but, you know, I had to reset and and I think that and this isn't a pat on the back, it's just, you know, yeah, exactly. It makes the difference that you have to be willing. You've got to have those tools, you know, and I think

experience makes the difference. Yes,

of course. And you

can make a yeah. And it's a broken leg or nothing, you know, a crash or you say if and also it makes you fly much harder because you feel safer and you understand that paragliding can actually handle quite a lot, you know, when you get really turbulent, you know what what it can be done, what cannot be done. And I think that this is the basic. And and also I would say if if I was like 15 years old or if I was talking to 50 years old pilot, they say don't rush too fast on the gliders and because people would say, yeah, but I needed the glider or I need a prototype or I need this or I need that when actually you see some of the pilots who fly out there, they don't do many days and they don't use the full potential of the glider, you know, and I see I have a really good example about that when I we went to Brazil with Horacio and with the owner of Gradient

and at the time he was he was coming out the big ladder, the Nevada was coming out and Andre said, OK, let's take Nevada and fly in Brazil. And we were like, what? We're not flying big. We need better gliders, this and that. And so finally. And he said, OK, take the sea glider, the Aspen. It's it's flies better. It flies faster, this and that. And then we flew every day with with Andre and every day he flew longer than us. He flew a bigger distance with his Nevada. So it's like after after all, you know, we felt a little bit ridiculous. Well, he's an amazing pilot. He's really good. But but still, it was interesting to see. And I think at the end, it's not only about the glider. Of course, the glider makes a big difference. But I think people are taking risk by

gliders that they don't really control, you know.

That's great. Well, this is a perfect segway because one of the other questions was, how do you choose your glider? You know, they that one of the questions that came through was that a guy named Tom Sleipen, a good friend of mine from from Canada, you know, he really wanted me to talk about my choice for flying the Ice Peak 7. You know, I planned on flying the Peak 3 and the X-Alps and changed very last minute, went to the standard weight. It wasn't a lightweight glider. But he wanted me to ask you that, that, you know, most of the people in

the X-Alps

choose, you know, to downgrade, not by down, downgrades, not to choose to fly a safer glider for the X-Alps. And that was the advice that was given to me. I just felt like my choice was was was really due to the fact that the the Peak 3 is a terrifically manageable wing, but it's it doesn't do very well to wind. And I knew that we'd be flying. It looked like we were going to be flying quite a bit of wind, which we did. And, you know, and I wanted that bar. Performance and then just personally for me, I really, really enjoy the feeling of a two liner. I don't feel like and I've written about this in blogs, but I don't feel like I'm upping my risk. If you have the hours, you know, and that's the big difference. If you have the hours and you feel confident, then I feel like these gliders are safe.

But, you know, as we saw in the in the in the Sierras a couple of weeks ago, you know, I see the Enzo to these these CCC gliders and I was flying the Ice Peak 8, which isn't really any different. You know, they they are incredibly hard to recover. They are they just flatly are incredibly dangerous gliders. And you have to be flying incredibly well and confidently. And even then, they're still pretty dangerous gliders. But talk to me about glider choice. And, you know, as I had an interesting thing, you know, in Canada, I flew the Peak 3 and and Will was on the Carrera, which is a really sweet B. I mean, that thing goes like a bat out of hell. It's impressive. But, you know, that that made me think a lot about it because the only time I could really shake him and we were never trying to shake one another, we were trying to stay together, but was when there was wind and we were going to wind.

I just had a little bit more performance. But

that combined with, you know, when I flew my big flight here, I was also on the Peak 3 and people have said, God, I wonder what you would have done if you had you been on an ice peak. And I've always claimed that I don't think I would have gone as far because, you know, it was it was a very turbulent day. I had flown a big day the day before. I'd only had about three hours sleep. And so I was kind of tired. I was kind of like you feel like in the X-OPS where you're just flying on autopilot. And had I had a wing that was more to handle, I think I would have done worse. So that makes my my my decision to fly the ice peak in the X-OPS interesting because, of course, we're really tired. But I for me, it was definitely the right choice. Now, had I been hurt or something, then, of course, we'd be saying something differently. But anyway, no, I think thoughts on this.

I

think it's interesting. I think there's different things that you have to think about. Like, first of all, is that what is it for? Like, is it for, you know, a long distance or is it for adventure or is it for, you know, is it to play is the place where you're going to fly very windy or not? You know, and I think for me, what I really wanted for this time for this X-OPS is a very fast glider. I wanted to because I knew, like basically in the Alps, you're flying against the wind all the time, especially when you go from east to west. And so I thought, OK, I need a glider that goes fast. And and we had this discussion with Gradient and we talked about it before. So when I when I read your story and when I remember you writing about you have to choose a glider,

which makes you feel like Superman, it made me smile at the time. I thought this is a really cool point of view. But at the same time, I was like, well, OK, actually, it's it's all compromised, you know, for example. And in this case, OK, you have more speed, you have more glide, but it's probably more difficult to land in small places on the road somewhere. It's more difficult to take off because you have a two liner. Maybe you break a line. It's very thin lines, this and that. It's heavier, you know, to carry. Imagine if you had had 10 days of rain, then you will be you'll be thinking, oh, I should have taken the other one, those two extra kilos. It's a lot. It's a big difference.

It's a

big difference.

It really

is. That part

was the worst part.

So, you know, it's it's really at the end. It's all about compromise. And there's not one good, you know, there is not one best choice, I would say. But in this case, for example, the glider I had is it's fast. It's very easy to control. It's clean. I wanted to have something that is clean, you know, that I can that. OK, that can be a little bit aggressive, but that at least I understand. And why, you know. But where I totally agree with you is I think that speed is safety. So many times when you're flying, you know, those typical moments where you're flying backwards and you push the speed bar and you're not really sure and you don't have speed and this is for me the most dangerous situation. I really prefer to to have a glider that goes fast than a glider that, you know, even if it does collapse a little bit here and there, speed is a major concern for me.

So I would say speed, but also for me, especially in bivouac flying, it has to be as light as possible. But again, we have different approach. I mean, for example, when you did the crossing the traverse, you did everything by flying when actually we we also hike and walk, you know. And when you start thinking about, OK, it has to be as light as possible, as light as possible, as light as possible. And then when you know that it's not about being I prefer to try to stay one hour or more flying, you know, because I can because I'm not so tired because I didn't fly a technical glider, you know, than the opposite way. So it's it's very difficult. But I would say, no, I feel so confident with this glider that I have now, it's the AVAX 65,

that it's a really good compromise for for everything. Of course, it wouldn't fly as much as the best competition glider, I think, because it's it's it's a D glider, it's not the highest level, but but it does so well. And when I was flying in the Atlantic Circle, I was so amazed by the speed. And what I think that that's something interesting. I think it's also when you fly acro, you're you used to to, you know, fly terminals with 18 meter gliders. And I would always say people say, yeah, I'm a little bit above my above the limit. And, you know, it's it's not the best because this and that and it kind of makes me laugh. At the end, you know, I always say, you know, a terminal is a terminal.

When you can go up with your glider, you can go up with an acro glider. And when you see those, for example, the new skin or the ozone ultralight, I was flying with them in Annecy and they climb in Germans, you know.

So, yeah, I mean, of course, if you're thinking about trying to optimize all the time, you know, of course, you'll get better results with your glider if you're in the middle range and stuff. But if you're a little bit heavier or in the high end of the the weight limit, you'll fly faster. You have a smaller turn. The glider will react better and be stronger and turbulence. So for me, it's I like to fly my gliders and being heavy on it. But that's that's personal. But this is how I like it. Tom,

a current theme we've been getting in the podcast is, you know, from guys that have been at the game a long time, like you have, is they've they've all talked about times where they've gone through, you know, a period where they're where they're not flying as confidently and they've had to, you know, wind things back, either going back to a B from a comp glider or a C or or just finding how to make it fun again, because it's really if it's not fun, we really shouldn't be doing it. It's too dangerous. Have you gone other than you said there was a couple of days at the beginning when you came back to the Adriatic. Expedition with Paul that you were definitely really not in the zone and then but you quickly found it. Have you had other times like that? And if you have, how have you approached it?

Yeah, I think, you know, some when I started flying in Pakistan the first year I was I was following Ramon and Ramon was a much better pilot than I than I was at the time. So for me, it was kind of hard to follow him, you know, like because he was he was better, he knew better, he was a better pilot. He had more experience. I was, you know, you have to imagine a twenty two or thirty three year old guy that has some experience flying mountains and stuff. But you get to Pakistan and you get to fly at seven thousand meters high and with one of the best pilots in the world. So for me, it was very impressive. And at the time I was flying a safer glider, I was I was actually always choosing to take a big glider instead of a sea glider. And I was taking my you know, I was being more careful.

And and then I think it's a slowly, slowly I start to trust him, you know, and and say, OK, if he does it, I can do it, too, which which is not always true.

And I started to take confident. But no, I I don't I don't think I've ever really gone backwards, really. Like I've thought a few times, OK, now it's too dangerous or, you know, sometimes I need a few days, you know, when you haven't flown for a month, you need a few days to come back into it in smooth conditions. And but what I think is that there's there's days that you are in the zone, as you call it, and there's that you're not. And you have to accept that some days you're not. And in one day when I was I was actually flying into the the Baltoro Glacier and with Ramon and he turned back because he wasn't the day and then I kind of flew away and did my flight.

And it was kind of a day where I I started to fly by myself, you know, after two years, three years, actually, in a row that I went to Pakistan with Ramon or with Horacio, with those guys that day, I decided, OK, that's it. This is my day. I had a good feeling for him for it. And Ramon didn't have a good feeling for it. And there I went and it was, you know, you started a little bit later with me, good friends around you and stuff and you were not really. But for me, I was young and I was looking up to those guys and I was learning everything, everything that I learned, I learned from them. But one day I had to fly away, you know, or get out of the nest, if I can say. And it happened it happened in Pakistan and in the worst possible place.

Yeah, no kidding. And I flew to I flew to the K2 that day, almost to the K2. I was 10 K's away from K2 alone. I landed on a glacier at the end of the day at four thousand six hundred meter high. And I had to come in. It was crazy. I had to cross the

Gondola, which is which is almost six thousand meter high with my gear and my glider and everything. And for two days they didn't they didn't know where I was. And I was so cool. I loved it. You know, for me, the best, you know, the best moment of my life as a paragliding pilot to really really not take my freedom, you know, but start to fly by myself and do my own thing, you know, and and do it well. But then but then we had very, you know, in the Marquesas Island, for example, Horacio crashed into the sea. I

love that video. That's true.

And the video is smooth. You know, like the video is we we've been you know, it was much more radical than that.

Yeah. But landing in the ocean is is not a good idea.

Yeah, it was crazy. But the moment like this, when you realize it was a close call and you and your best friend is out there, you know, and you think, well, we are so small. And I love that with paragliding also is to realize that it's a it's a very big lesson of humility. You know, it's I compared to sailing and I know much more about that than me. But it's that you feel like you're nothing when you're in the middle of the ocean or when you're really high. I'm there in the mountains of Pakistan or even in the Alps or any mountain in the world. You can as soon as you're a little bit out there in a remote area, you feel like you're so small and that's actually what we are. We are very small and we just have to we're just playing there. You know, we have to respect the place. And then maybe the mountain will, you know, bring us back home, you know, kind of.

And it's it's a very you have to be very humble practicing your sport. I think it's it's people tend to look way too much about the kilometers and the altitude and how, you know, you land somewhere and people will say 146 minutes. And this is my longest flight when at the end of the day, you know, numbers or ranking or it doesn't really matter. You know, what matters is to is to enjoy the sport the way you want to enjoy it. Have a good time and not risk your life, you know, and and be a whole pilot. And, you know, that's the best thing I can say. And for us, it's been for quite long. It's been about numbers like, you know, I was calculating that long ago.

Rebel Adventure asked me how many kilometers I've had done in bivouac flying. And I'm almost at ten thousand kilometer with with all the exiles and the Pyrenees and the news and then in all those mountain ranges. And I never actually counted. But I remember that for me, it felt important to do nine hundred K or a thousand K or that. And now it makes it feels to me that it makes it's not important at all. What it's important is to to enjoy the way to have a great time, to have to share good moments with your friends, to come back with great stories. And also, I think we have it's a small responsibility, but it's a really cool one is to to kind of have, how would you say, try to push people to get out of their comfort zone.

And it's not for everyone. But but it's so cool when someone sends you a message and say, hey, you inspired me doing this crossing and I'll do it myself. And do you have any advice? And then then a few weeks later you see them on Facebook. They're doing it. You know, it's so cool. I love it. You know, and I and I know I know that people are looking. I think also, you know, at you and they say, well, these these travelers, they did and it's my dream to do that one day and then they go and they do it and they don't have to do it like we do it or but but it's so cool. That's actually at some point someone will get inspired maybe and go out there. And for some people it's a life changing experience also, you know, to do a bivouac crossing or two.

So it's I think it's it's cool. And now. Oh, gee, it's so amazing. I mean, it can be Instagram or Twitter or Facebook or whatever, what you know. But it's so easy to be out there and at the same time communicate with the with the followers. And and so it gives you so much motivation to keep pushing. Yeah. Yeah. And people send you messages and stuff and then you keep pushing. It's so good. I

love the you know, doing that trip, of course, with Will was just such a life moment because when you talk about records and when you know, if I was a better sound engineer or podcast interviewer, we would just ended it right there. That was the most beautiful five minutes I've ever heard. Thank you. But but it was you know, I I loved Will's perspective really shifted all that for me, because when we first started talking about doing it because it was Red Bull, of course, it had to be a record. You know, it had to be something bigger and longer than anybody had ever done. And so when I proposed it to Will at first, it was going to be to start where we did up near Bride or McKenzie and fly all you know, we had to get all the way to Jackson in order in order for it to be, you know, bigger than the Adriatic. You know, it had to be big.

And and and Will just right away. You know, the first time I talked to him, I'd I'd never met Will at that point. Of course, I knew all about him. He was a legend. Yeah. When and stuff before I even knew what paragliding was. But and he just said, Gavin, I'm not interested in that whatsoever. You know, I did the X-Alps. I hated it. I'm not a backpacker. People have already backpacked the Rockies. You know, I'm a pilot. Yeah. And I want to fly. I

want to fly

it. And the only way to do this in style is because we can't really walk it anyway. There's the rivers are too big. The terrain is too gnarly, you know, so we have to to fly it. And, you know, when you look at the distance, it was it was seven hundred K. It took us over a month. You know, it's not this is not a big distance. And but, you know, we took our time and we and we you know, when the weather wasn't good for flying, we sat there and looked at the mountains and walked around and it was just it was.

It was

exquisite. And I love his line at the end of the movie was, you know, he said, you know, what we've just done is, you know, it's it's incredible. And where can you where in the world can you do this? And he leaves it kind of hanging for a second. And he goes and the answer is everywhere. You know, the answer is that we have barely touched the surface. And I love that about where we are with this sport. You know, and it's been it's been really amazing to see, you know, how where you've. Pushed it and in all the different places you've gone and, you know, and I think it is really inspiring and it's really inspiring to for people that are just getting into the sport and people that are in the sport to realize that we have barely touched the surface. That's pretty. Yeah,

it's a world of possibilities. I, you know, I remember when we crossed New Zealand with 30 is when we arrive at the end, we were at the very last mountain and we could have flown down to Nelson and then we look at each other and thought, oh, let's let's make it last a little bit longer, you know, and so we landed on. On

top of

that mountain and slept there and bad luck for us. The next day was shitty and we had to walk all the way to the coast. But but it was, you know, for the whole distance we had been thinking about that moment when we would get to Nelson and when we got there, we thought we just want to go back to the mountains, you know, so spending more time is enjoying more actually. And and it's not about the distance or the timing or it's about what you learn on the way and what is cool, I think, in adventure and the world, the world adventures is most of the time is a little bit overused, you know, like, of course. But but but when you do get to some real adventure, some moments and you learn so much about yourself and about your friends and you know, it's when you get in very difficult situation with your best friend out there and you have to help each other to make it out and it's so rich, you know, and it's so intense that when you come back home and you are I'm here in Belgium and then, oh, OK, it's normal to have hot water and a shower, it's normal to open the fridge and have food every, you know, when you appreciate

it, doesn't it

makes you appreciate it so much. And it takes it takes only two to three days to not appreciate it anymore. You know what I mean? So it's it's things we take for granted. The more you do, the

more you want to. That's the problem with what we do.

That's the problem. But what you said earlier is that you can do it everywhere. It's true. Like my dream now is to make one of the search project that I really want to make is search, search in Europe and search in the States because those places, you know, still it has a huge potential and pushing it in the Dolomites or pushing it in the in the Pyrenees or pushing it in countries like, for example, Macedonia or Croatia or Romania. You know, there's still so much to discover. And I heard too many times in conferences, people saying, yeah, but for you it's easy because you have big sponsors and this and that. And you know what I say is that you don't need to be an adventurer to take your tent and take off from your local site, land on the mountaintop, sleep there, have dinner and fly down in the next morning.

And that's already a small adventure, you know. And I would really push people to do things like that. Yeah.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Well, Tom, I know you're incredibly busy and I could I could talk to you all day. And this is fantastic. I think the I think our listeners are really going to enjoy this one. But why don't we wrap it up? Because we're almost an hour and a half in and and before we go, though, a couple of things, if you'd like to give a shout out to your to your sponsors and also how can people contact you, because I know that, you know, one of the things that I have really appreciated about you over the years is just your accessibility and your your your passion really comes across. And, you know, as I was really getting into this, you were real valuable to me in terms of just sharing your stoke. And I know you're you're totally good with that, with people getting in touch with you. So how can people find you and who would you like to thank?

Yeah, well, well, I'd like to thank, you know, most of all, my my closest friends. You know, it's interesting because my sponsors have become my really good friends. You know, I'm thinking about Jacob from Red Bull or Mac for Volkswagen or Nico at Garmin, you know, those guys, they really they understood what we're doing. You know, one of the very first one and one of my really good friends is also Andre from from Gradient. Of course, the guys at Super, I mean, I could name all of them, you know, but it's I'm not really into the commercial type of, you know, naming sponsors and stuff. But but they will recognize themselves. But what I think is that, you know, what is interesting is that it's it's not about money anymore. You know, it's good friends that understood that we're doing something and we still have a lot to do.

And that's really that's amazing that I see that we didn't reach the full potential yet, you know, in terms of project and things that can be done. So it's it's very exciting. And to join me. I mean, really, I always say that to people. But just don't hesitate. You know, it's you can do it by email on my website. I directly answer my emails or on Facebook, you know, and just don't be scared. I mean, I remember when I met guys like Raul and like Ramon and I thought, well, those guys think. But actually, they're we're all human and we're all very especially in the community. You know, we're all really easygoing. I mean, it's I know that if I have some advice to ask you, I'll give you a call and you'll spend an hour and I think that's how it has to be. So I'm happy to play my part in this situation also.

And so, yeah, just don't don't hesitate if you guys need to to contact me. I'll be there.

Fantastic. And then just finally, Tom, what's the name of your book? And congratulations on just publishing that book. And where can people find that?

Yeah, well, this this book is actually only in French at the moment. But it's a very good opportunity to learn French, but it's a book we made with with with the bank here in Belgium. And it's it's about all the links between the entrepreneurship and the adventure. You know, being an entrepreneur is being an adventurer. And and so it's it's all my little stories and what I've learned on the way. And the book is called L 'Aventure de la Création de l 'Entreprise. But we'll look forward

to that in English, maybe. And like you said, it's a good excuse for me to sign up on my French. Tom, thank you very, very much. I really appreciate your time. Thank you. An

amazing talk. I really enjoyed that one. I could have talked to Tom for hours and hours longer. We might have to do a second episode with him here at some point. Please leave a comment and the feedbacks there in the feedback space under the cloudbasemayhem.com where you'll find that podcast and more. You can also find these on Stitcher or iTunes. Love to have you put a rating on there if you enjoyed this. As always, all we ask for is a buck a show following the footsteps of Dan Carlin's Hardcore History, a podcast that I am completely addicted to instead of sponsorship. What we're doing is just asking you to if you've enjoyed it, if you've got something out of it, give us a buck. People have been super generous. Our listeners have been super generous in the past. Thank you so much for that. I really appreciate it.

Many people have asked where you do do that donation. If you're listening to us on iTunes or Stitcher, of course, you don't have the links. But if you go to my website, cloudbasemayhem.com, you'll find all the podcasts there. And in each of the podcasts, there's a link for a donate button. Really appreciate it. It allows me to buy these guys beers and dinners when I see them. And, you know, covers a lot of my time. I will continue doing it. I love doing it. I love dispensing all this knowledge. I'm obviously getting a great education myself. It's been a lot of fun and I got some great shows coming up for you. I'm sitting down tonight with Josh Cohn, the Josh Bot. That's going to be a great talk. So I'll have that up next week. Thank you so much for listening. See you on the next one. Cheers.