If there are rules in place and you want to play, then you've got to stick to the rules. If you don't stick to the rules, get out of the shop and do something else. That's what I was trying to do with the World Paragliding Series. It was an attempt to show the finger at the rules in place because I didn't like the rules. Now, if Ozone had done the same thing and said, OK, we'll make the Ozone World Series, and we'll do it by our own rules, then I would have applauded them all the way. But they were playing inside the playing field, but cheating. And I couldn't take that. I have to admit that to you.
I couldn't take that. It was too much for me. A
little excerpt there from the last show with the very vocal and inquisitive and inspiring and amazing pilot, Mads Syndergaard, about the Ozone debacle last year with the Grand Prix. And Enzo Gate, too, I guess they call that. Anyway, it's a fascinating talk. I hope if you missed that one, go back and grab it. I was just re-listening to it now to grab that little soundbite. And he's got a lot of really fascinating things to say about sponsorship and about the art of winning and mental preparation and competitions. And his history is really phenomenal. Started flying competitions in 1994 and hasn't looked back since. Really excited to bring you this show. Today, I finally got a chance to sit down, although not personally, but via Skype with my great mentor and friend and film partner and flying partner, Nick Greece.
Nick was our U.S. champion last year. He's represented the U.S. team in the last couple of world championships. I met Nick the first time in 2012 in Haiti. I was really just starting to kind of sharpen my teeth with cross country. Very new pilot back at the time with cross country. I was like, oh, I'm going to do this. Living in Morocco, we were getting done with the boat thing. And I'd been working with Nick with the magazine. He is the editor for Ushpo, of course. I've been working with him for years with the magazine, but we'd never met. He invited me down to Haiti, which sounded like a good adventure. So went down there and followed him around in the sky a little bit. And he's been an incredible force in my life ever since. He was very instrumental in my moving to Sun Valley and chasing distance here.
And every time we get in the air or we do a film project, we work together on 500. And we've worked together in Malawi and quite a few other projects. And it's always a great pleasure. Nick is hysterical, very thoughtful, very concerned, especially these days with safety. We'll talk about some of the things going down with Ushpo and insurance. But also just his progression and history in the sport. I think you'll find this a fascinating and inspiring talk. Without further ado, Nick Greece. Mr.
Grease, how are you, buddy? I'm fantastic. Thank you very much. How are you? Great. Man, it's good to sit down with you even in the virtual world. You're down in Salt Lake. I'm up in Sun Valley. It's too bad we couldn't do this in person. But I know you just got back from Iran and you're busy and we got a lot to talk about. Yeah, absolutely. What I'd love to start with, Nick, because I know all this because you and I have hung out so much together. But I think the listeners would really appreciate knowing how you went from a media dude in New York and growing up in the city and being a DJ at raves. I
mean, you've been around the
country and stuff to becoming a paraglider. Can you give us a little bit of history in how that transition went? Because that's not a real obvious transition.
Yeah, I'm more DJed in my college dorm than around the country. I don't know, man. I've heard some of your material. It's pretty hot. Yeah, I mean, I grew up on Long Island and part of the whole New York culture. And I worked a lot, actually, in my dad's PR firms, the firms that he worked for, as just an intern or doing media lists or doing surveys on the streets, which were always fun, getting data from handing out rat traps in exchange for collecting survey samples. And, yeah, that was kind of my path. That was what I was supposed to do. That's what I was trained to do.
So I went. You know, I went to college. Went through college. And after college, I went out and I did public relations for, actually, a hip-hop company in L.A. And so I was in L.A., you know, working, barely working, sleeping on my friend's floor in Venice with, like, my head in the refrigerator kind of thing. You know, I was sleeping in his kitchen because it was a one-room place. And I couldn't make enough money to survive. So I would go down. I had been dating for four years. I was dating for four years Michelle Jebb, which is, you know, they're the Gabe Jebb and Dave Jebb. And they were paraglider pilots, and they ran Torrey Pines, Gliderport. Gabe was the – he was doing weather for us at Nationals in Sierra. Is that Gabe?
Yeah. Okay. Gotcha. Yeah, so it was funny. I mean, because, like, when I was in college, you know, she'd tell me – I'm like, well, what – you know, she'd say, what do your family do? Oh, they work in communications. My mom's a teacher in her. And she's like, oh, what is yours? And, you know, they're paraglider pilots. And I thought, like, what? So they're unemployed? You know? You know?
They're bums? Is that what you're – like, okay, like, whatever. You know, she was super driven. She got her Ph.D. in archaeology and is, you know, is going to be a professor at the University of Michigan here. And so she was really driven. And so, yeah, but lo and behold, I would – you know, I needed money living in L.A. So I would go down to Torrey Pines, and then I would flip burgers at the restaurant. What year was this? 2001. Okay. All right. About 15 years ago. Yeah. And so I'd flip burgers at the restaurant, and I just – you know, I actually went on a tandem with her dad, which was slightly awkward. You know, like, giving you the, you know, what's your intentions with my daughter speech.
Let's go fly back in this rotor. Hang on. Yeah, yeah. You're just like, this is freaky. And actually, I remember landing and being like, yeah, whatever. That was all right. You know? That wasn't that cool. Yeah, that was the same. My first tandem experience was kind of like, okay. Yeah, what's all the hubbub? But I kept flipping burgers, and I kept watching. And, you know, what drew me in was the – I guess the flow of paragliding. You know, it's just like skiing or mountain biking. It's that kind of – that rhythm and the arc of the flying. And so I just kept watching and watching, and I just – I don't know. It just, like, it sucked me in. And so I learned, and I learned in 30 days. I flew every day for 30 days. So I quit both my jobs. And all I did was, as you do when you become a paraglider, I guess.
You went to paragliding rehab. Yeah, basically. And in 30 days, I flew for 30 – I got my P3 in 30 days. And then I got a job in New York on Madison Avenue at a PR firm. So, you know, I kind of was like, oh, well, my parents had worked so hard and long to bring me to the point where I would get that job. I figured I had to at least try it for a year. So I did. So I took the job, and I went for a year, and pretty shortly into it, I was like, this is hell, you know? Yeah. Well, as well, the second day was – so, yeah, my second day of work – I started September 9th, 2001. So my second day of work was September 11th, 2001. And so I saw the first plane hit from the street as I was walking to work.
Holy shit. Holy shit. Yeah. And I actually – I was – you know, I was definitely – it was like – I was like, what the F was that? You know, that's insane. Because I saw a plane go behind the building and a fireball come out and go up it. And I remember thinking, you know, like, wow, I went to too many raves, maybe.
That was kind of my first thought. Like, geez, that's not good. And then everybody around me was screaming. So that kind of – I was like, oh, wait, this is real. And so I called my dad. I'm like, a plane – you know, I told him, a plane just hit the World Trade Center. He worked up, you know, 50 blocks uptown from where I was. I was about two miles. I was from the World Trade Center. And, you know, he's like, calm down and go to work. It's only your second day. He thought I was trying to get out of work. Oh, crazy. You know, the classic New Yorker mentality. Right, right, right. Get to work. Get to work. Yeah, yeah. So anyway, that was my second day. But, you know, that's a whole other story. You know, that and – you know, everybody in New York at that moment in history has a story. And they're all very interesting.
But, you know, we witnessed this horrific moment in American history. But so anyway, you know, I realized after that, maybe a week or two later, that I was not going to last. I have an amazing appreciation for people who can do corporate America, do 9 to 5. I just – I don't have the constitution. They're much stronger. Do you think that, you know, you would have come to that conclusion – you would have also come to that conclusion that 9-11 not happened? Or was 9-11 just the hammer? I think 9-11 helped. I don't know. It was a long time ago now. Yeah, true. Yeah, I mean, yes, that helped. I was like, oh, hell no. You know, I think when there's ever – and, you know, it wasn't the strike necessarily. I think it was probably the commuting in for the next two weeks with the building burning.
And my train line – you know, I was on the long end. I was living at home. And my train line was really heavily hit. There was a lot of people that worked in the World Trade Center. So, like, half the train was missing.
So, I think it was those two weeks, really, after three weeks. I don't know. Maybe it burned for a month. I mean, it burned forever. Yeah, yeah. So, I don't know. It's kind of cliche to say, like, yeah, like, that's what did it. But that had to have helped. Sure. It fast-forwarded the process. Maybe you would have been there for three years instead of one or something. Right. So, I committed then. And also, the Yushpa magazine, you know. And I was listening to, actually, paragliding podcasts back then of Dave Jebb, you know. No way. Yeah, my co-workers would get really mad because they were terrible sounding. Like, really tinny, echoey. They're like, put some headphones on, you know. Which I did. But I was like, sorry. So, yeah. I mean, I think I had a picture of a paraglider in my cubicle that, you know.
And the Yushpa magazine is what. Cross Country Magazine. And those, you know, just keeping that inspiration. And I would go and kite in windy ball fields in New York in the rotor just to get so that I could go to Mexico for a weekend. And do a thing. And do a thermal clinic, you know. So, I'd be ready. So, I would just, you know, just kite and kite and kite, you know, as much as I could. And then, you know, dream of flying. And all I did was dream of flying. And those magazines is kind of, you know. The magazines, you know, flying magazines have been a huge catalyst in my life. And that's why I'm working on them. And, you know, I hope to put out content from everybody that sends it in. And from myself. That inspires others the way I've been inspired. Yeah.
We're going to talk about where you got to, you know, how you became the editor. Because CJ was running the magazine back then, of course, right? And then you're, yeah, you took it over four or five years ago. Definitely, right? Is that the timeline? Eight years ago, actually. Oh, my gosh. We've been working with you since the boat. You're right. That's a long time back. Our 100th issue is in June, actually. Wow. Cool. Congratulations. Well, yeah. Definitely. That's one of my questions down the list here. So take me back to, so you lasted in New York a year? Yeah, one year. I got a job at a ski shop so I could work on the weekends. And I worked seven days a week. And then I went, basically, I retired.
I've given you all I can give. Passing this off. My grueling one year of corporate America. Yeah, I mean, I don't know what it's about, to be honest. I was in an entry-level position and basically just doing grunt work for a year. I know I didn't see daylight because I didn't smoke cigarettes. That's my regret. I wish I would have smoked cigarettes. Because then I could have gone on break.
Cigarettes can actually get you daylight in a New York corporate environment, which is pretty funny. Maybe it's changed. Fifteen years is a long time. So then I went back to Torrey Pines. And Michelle, the Jebs were basically... They were the most supportive people. And they're truly the reason why I learned to fly as quickly as I did. Because they would let me fly. I went there and started doing their PR and their communications. And then I would just fly every day. And they appreciated that. They're like, yeah, go ahead. You can have an hour. Take it to... And if there's no one there, I could fly for two hours. How were you making that a job then? Were you teaching then? Well, I was doing the communications for the glider.
Oh, okay. And then I started teaching about six months in. And then I taught. And I was actually a traveling sales rep for them. So there used to be traveling sales reps in paragliding. And so they would send me to fly-ins and events. And I would sell helmets and push... As if I had a cart full of trinkets.
And they would pay for my trips. And we would get Torrey Pines out there. There's an importer. And more importantly for me, I would get to go flying in different places and grow my knowledge base and grow my skill base. It sounds like pretty quickly you went from... I've never even flown Torrey. But you went from ridge soaring, Torrey, to understanding and seeing cross country. When did that whole side of your skill set start to develop? Well, I would... See, when I was there, I flew seven days a week. So... I flew at Torrey five days a week when I was working. And then I would always take my two days off. Other people, they didn't. Like Dave and Gabe, they'd work a lot. You know, like seven days a week at Torrey. I would go to the mountains.
And go to... Yeah, so I would go fly in the mountains two days a week. And no matter what the weather, I was just like out there, you know? Right. And there's a place called Blossom, which has this little... It's about a 15-mile round-trip cross country route. But it's basically the perfect cross country place. You take off really low. You have to climb up to this altitude. Then you have to make one big transition to this thing that looks like El Cap. It's like a mini El Cap. And then you climb up that in order to get back. And if you don't do the valley wind part on the way back right, you land in the valley and you get in a lot of trouble. And so... What were you flying? Oh, yeah. I was on a one. You know?
Awesome. I mean, I flew... I mean, that's the thing. I flew a one and then a low. Low-end one, two. And then I went to a high-end one, two. And I wanted to start racing.
And that was pretty funny. Do you remember what that wing was? That was a Dragon. So I was on Paratech to begin with. A P-25 and then a P-43. Yeah, I remember every wing. And then I had an Independence Dragon II. And that was like... To me, that was like... That's why I have a hard time understanding people. And they're like, it's the wing. Because to me at the time, the wing was the shit. You know? I'm like, this wing is better than anything. This
is the best wing
I've ever had. It's a big thing, you know? Even if it wasn't flyable, I'd go out there and I'd side-hill land. You know? And I never would go if it was too strong. I'd always wait. I'd just sit out there in the desert and wait. You know? Until it chilled out. You know? Because at some point, it's like right before dark. I'm like, okay, now I can fly. You know? And you had kind of a unique way... Maybe I'm jumping ahead too far. But you kind of had a unique way of getting into competitions.
Didn't you start flying... Did you start flying comps by kind of just jumping into them? Not actually being in the comp? Like you'd poach them? Is that accurate? Yeah, that's accurate.
I forget about that every so often. Yeah, I went to... My first comp was a World Cup. Up to now, Austria. And that's where I actually met Jamie Messenger, who has become a lifelong friend.
And I was just... So, yeah. So, basically, after Tori, I went through Tori. I taught there for two years. And then my girlfriend, Michelle, at the time, she got a Fulbright in Morocco. And at the same time, Bob Drury's article on Morocco had just come out about flying in the Zagora. And so I was like, well, that's all I need to see. You know?
And Felix Volk also had a picture in there of jumping off a dam with his hang glider. And I thought I was getting something out of Tori. And I realized I was getting nothing. And so I sold all my possessions, including my turntables, which I still regret.
And basically traveled for a year with my glider. So I had a big glider on my back. And I had all my camping stuff and all my clothes on my front. So I had two glider bags. And I was just hitchhiking. In Morocco. Yeah, from Morocco to Slovenia. Wow. Yeah. You covered some ground. Yeah, yeah. So it was over a year. I did like a language course for a month in Granada. I would look on wherever, whatever we were looking at, paragliding. Heading Earth or whatever. And I'd find where they're flying. I'm like, oh, they held a World Cup in Granada. This is 2003, 2004? Yeah, 2003 probably. Okay, yeah. Yeah, 2003, 2004. Yeah. And so they held, you know, just like we do now, that people do. Like I was like, they had a World Cup in Granada. I'll go to a language school there for a month. And I would just go to class all morning. And then I'd take a bus out to Santa de la Vega, which is like where the Rodriguez brothers are from.
And fly. And just talk Spanish. And it was amazing. But then I went to, like, a comp up in, you know, I did my first, you know, oh, let's see. No, I guess my first comp would be San Andres. Because that was in France. I don't think I went back for that. Anyway, I did a couple comps. But one of them was a World Cup. And I was like, I can't get into this. So I just went. And, you know, I was kind of broke. So I would just sneak in and eat all the food they were serving to the pilots. And I would sneak on their buses to go up to launch. But you weren't signed up. You would just. No, no. I was on a one-two. And then, like, one day I got rejected from the bus. So I was like, fuck it. I was like, well, I know that there's a, you know, there's a launch. There's a turn point up there. So I'd hike up to the turn point.
I'd wait. And then as soon as I'd see them coming, I would launch. And then I'd fly with them for, like, you know, a minute before they'd leave me. And, I mean, no, I mean, some of the people, I'm like, wow, you're really doing bad. You know, like, there's always that guy or girl that you're flying with in the comp that you're like, I'm doing really bad if I'm with this person. Right, right. And it's like, God, I just got to get away from them. How could I, you know? And I was that person to, like, 150 people. Take me back to what was your mind frame back then? Was this all in a, were you just super passionate about flying and you knew that comps would teach you? Yeah. Or were you like, I'm going to win the World Cup someday? No. What was your approach? Yeah, no, no. I just was, I just wanted to go flying. Okay.
And comps would teach me. And, you know, I, I mean, man, I didn't make gold for my first, like, four or five comps, maybe. You know, yeah, I mean, it's, it's funny. I never thought of, and I actually never thought I would even be in the World Cup, for sure. Never. And then, Ers Schoenauer, actually, because I was like, I was, you know, I was staying with this Swiss pilot named Andy Bierenstiel. And he brought me, he's the one who brought me to Apto now, actually. He gave me a ride there. And, and then, you know, their whole camp. And Ers still races. I'm sure, I'm sure you know him. He's a great guy. Yeah, yeah. And he's, he's the one, actually. I was like, you should come do this. And, you know, I'm like, what? Me? You know, it was one of those moments where I was like, no, I could never do this. Yeah.
And I, you know, I never really thought much about it. But his friendliness kind of made me, you know, I always kept that in my mind. And so when it came, you know, as I got more and more hungry. But no, I never expected to win anything. All I wanted to do was make it to goal. Right. I mean, we had, you know, we joked that we had a team. We called it Team Big Ears. Because, you know, we would mess around coming into goal. Or, you know, and I would try to do, I would practice helis when I was first competing. You know, before the start, because I get so bored. And I wasn't very good at them.
So you were, is it, so this is back, that first year, I know you, you met Jamie. Who were some other kind of mentors? Who were some other kind of, who were the, who were the? Who were the guys that led you to the cake? Well, I mean, basically that, that was just like, I was just running around like a crazy person. And meeting people, a lot of high-fiving. And, you know, Jamie and Debu, you know, we ended up traveling around together a lot. Jamie's always been better than me. So he's always someone I've looked up to for consistency. And then, you know, but so Jamie, Debu and I, we had some good times just rallying around. And that's back when Jamie was living here in Sun Valley, right?
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Okay. So who I looked up to though, like in terms of, you know, flying, you know, the, the creme de la creme back then was Steve Cox. And Martin Orlik was crushing. You know, these are the, the guys that were just always, you know, doing well. Alex Hoffer was, was another one that, you know, I would call them mentors, but they were the gold standard, you know. I'm trying to think of who else. Russ. Russ Ogden, I met that year as well. And he, we became fast friends. You know, he was an incredible pilot. He was, he was on Gradient and Avex and, but also just a really nice guy. He loved, he, he's just, you know, it was one of those people that you meet and you're like, wow, this is, we were just fast friends. So I met him at Sun Andre that year.
But yeah, I mean, I looked up a lot though, at that time to Bob Drury and Jerome Malpoint, Felix Volk. You know, those are some of the guys that I was like, wow, they're out there, you know, living it and getting it and having adventures and documenting it. And so those were some of my, you know, at that time was definitely this comp thing was kind of a, I did it to get better, you know, and then it became a full addiction. But originally I was just more into like the adventuring and documenting aspects, you know? Right. So, yeah. Cool. And then, so that, that year ended and then what you got back, you came back to the States. I came back to the States and look for somewhere to live. Um, I did a competition, uh, here on, uh, in Utah, actually, the nationals was here in September.
And then, uh, I had moved to Jackson hole for, I went to Jackson hole for a competition, like a little inner, uh, intermountain league meet, um, which I had been reading about that Nate scales put on then. And that's actually the reason I moved to the intermountain West was, uh, his intermountain league meets. Um, because I've been reading about them and, uh, I was like, I want some of that. That sounds amazing. You know? Um, and, uh, so I went to Jackson for a competition and I've somehow won the competition, you know? Um, and that was a shock to everybody. It's just like a rich pilot from Torrey highs on a DHB too. Uh, just kind of come in. And so I stayed, um, and, uh, cause the flying was, it was kind of the first time I had really big mountain Rocky mountain flying, you know?
And was that take me back to that time. Like you, you'd come from the Alps, which can certainly be, uh, severe and, you know, shouldn't be taken lightly, but very different than the intermountain West was, um, was it, did you find when you started flying in Jackson? Was it like, Oh man, this is awesome. Or was it like, Oh God, this is scary. It was awesome. Yeah. You liked it. You have that personality. You dug it.
I was like, this is amazing. Yeah. It was, yeah. I, and I still was super, I didn't even hardly ski the first year. I would just go flying and try to work on spins and stalls over the, over the snow. You know? Um, but, uh, yeah, so, um, you know, that community too, I was really, you know, was with John hunt and who would go on to be one of my biggest mentors, um, and John Patterson and there was all this, this big chip Hilda brand and Josh Riggs. And there was this great community of pilots getting after it. Um, and, uh, and that, that's why I stayed as well. Cause I, I knew that I could, I can learn so much from them. Um, and I did, you know, I learned a tremendous amount about, you know, not just. How to be in the mountains while flying, but how to be in the mountains in general, you know, how to be in the mountains while in skiing, how to be in, you know, what, what you're looking for and just a ton of knowledge.
Um, and I, you know, it was, those are 10 of the best years of my life. I moved from there. I lived there for 10 years, but, um, they'll always be in my mind, you know, 10 of the best years of my life. You and I met in 2012 down in Haiti. Um, you know, we'd been working together quite a bit in the magazine when I was out on the boat and sending you pictures and stuff, but we never actually met until Haiti. You invited me to come out there. To, to fly. I was very novice, very, um, you know, very new at the cross country game and I was looking for a place to live. Uh, you know, we, we'd been on the boat for years and years and I was moving back to North America and I asked you at the time, uh, and I've said this and printed this a million times, I'm sure you've gotten tired of this, but, but I asked you the time, you know, where, where should I move to, um, to fly in the mountains and fly big lines?
Because I could kind of see, even though I sucked, I could kind of see. I could see that that was where I wanted to go. Um, you said at the time, Jackson, Owens, um, Sun Valley, you've spent quite a bit of time in, in all those places. Um, do you, do you still, is that still kind of the creme de la creme for you? Sites like that? Yeah. I mean, Utah is pretty good too. Now, I mean, at the time I, I couldn't imagine myself living in Utah. I'm liking it a lot, but the flying here is pretty, it's pretty good too. Um, but yeah, I think for, for the U S, um, yeah, I think that's still, you know, Take, take me from, take me from the time. So, you know, you, you come back, you're in Jackson, you, you, you develop these relationships with hunt and all these guys and you start to fly bigger lines.
How do you go from there? I'm assuming that's kind of 2005, 2006. How do you go from there to fly in 204 miles two summers ago, which, uh, you know, took the North American foot launch record. What was that? You know, take me through that progression. Uh, well. I got a job at a group home doing social work. They would let me go for the summers. I would sign up for competitions in Europe. I would go over and meet Jamie and Debu. We would just do comps in Europe. It just opens. Nothing big, but great competitions in places like Piedrahita or San Andres or La Rana or these classic flying places. The French Alps really taught me the cross country, the style of cross country that I fly, I think still to this day.
That's where I really cut my teeth for flying distance, especially La Rana. La Rana has a lot of really windy valleys that come up from every different direction, I feel like, and are all blowing in different directions. It's funny that you say La Rana. That's where I feel like I cut my teeth as well. It's an interesting place. Yeah, cool. I didn't know that. Yeah, so I do that. That was only for a month and a half. The rest of the time, I would fly in Jackson with everyone. Then just listening to everybody talk and looking at Chip's maps where he had everybody's big flights for the last 20 years and talking about it. As well though, I think it's also bringing when people come in that are new, they bring a different perspective like you did when you went to Sun Valley.
Yeah, I flew 240 miles. Your perspective maybe was different enough that you could see this line that they have made and the farmer hadn't been able to see. I think there's a little bit of that in Jackson. Yeah, so just a lot of competition and just flying as much as possible and traveling to fly as much as possible. Just life dedication for that. Working hard, double time all winter so I could fly all summer.
We had this talk. It was kind of inspiration for creating this. We had this talk about listening to you and Russ and Martin and Farmer and Nate after the PWC here in Sun Valley in 2012, which was, I think at the time, my second comp. You guys just had so much knowledge to share.
When you look back at that time and flying the 204 miles and winning U.S. Nationals last year, what were some of the things that you were able to do? What are some of the things that you can remember that guys like you have said? The advice that you got back in 2007, 2008. I think of you as an amazing climber. When we fly comps together, you're always on that fucking kavu wing at the top of the stack. It's unbelievable. It's always been something that I've really tried to figure out. I find it inspiring that you can just sit on top of everybody. What got you there? What were the tools or what were the lessons?
Was that just practice? Did Felix Walker or somebody tell you, hey, you need to do this? Did you have a magic moment or was it just years? No. I didn't get much advice, in all honesty, for the first eight years, maybe. It's interesting that you say that. I have to cut in. Just because Nate said the same thing, that it used to be much more competitive.
That's been something that I can't even imagine. When I came into it, I've always felt like knowledge has just been shared. Even at the X-Ops, people were so open with sharing everything. That's an interesting transition. Feel free to talk about that, too. I'm giving you too many questions at once. No, no. I agree. I think the rat race has had something to do with that. The Haley's have had something to do with that. Yeah, possibly. For my first eight or nine, it was really hard to get anybody to give you advice. Hunt was the first person to really be open and willing to just share whatever. I would ask him, what's the weather doing today? He would put up with my inane questions. God bless him.
Tell me what he thought and tell me what his experiences were. It was definitely like you had to go out and figure it out. Hats off to guys like you and Nate that I think have really changed that. It feels to me like when new people get into the sport now, we've seen our local hero this year, Mitch Riley, go from volunteering at the PWC here in 2012 to being our U.S. champion this year. It's pretty neat to see. I think we have guys like you that we can go to constantly. I mean, talk about a few inane questions. I've been hammering you for years with this shit. Oh, no. You haven't been hammering me at all.
No, you haven't. I'm being serious. I think for a lot of people that we've spent so much time and parts of our lives doing it, it's a joy to find somebody that's excited and open to learning and taking whatever information that we have. I don't teach anybody anymore. I don't guide or any of that. I only teach for fun.
I don't teach for fun. I don't teach for fun. I don't teach for
free because to me, it's the only way I can do it. I'm not a great teacher necessarily. I watch Farmer work or Rob Sporer or Chris Santacroce. I'm just always so impressed with their ability to teach. One of the things that actually, an unlikely thing that stuck in my mind, I asked Santa, Chris Santacroce once, like, hey, how do I climb better or how do you climb? He said, I don't know, maybe it was like eight, ten years ago. He's like, I sample a lot of air.
That's always stuck with me.
That's my style of flying and thermaling is that I'm trying to sample a lot of packets of air and that I'm always searching to some extent for a little better segment of the thermal and then I'm always searching in the glide for a little better gliding line. I'm just always trying to sample as much air as I can in a day so that I can find the best bit. Yeah, I would say that if you have a flying style that's really obvious, when you're in a massive gaggle, you're always the guy that's reaching out farther. I think like you and Josh, I learned a technique from you guys. I believe it was in Valle a couple years ago where if you guys converge on a thermal together, you always go opposite directions.
You're sampling basically twice the amount of air. I love that technique. I try to do it with people all the time. Most of the time, they don't know what I'm doing and they get all pissed off that I'm going the wrong way. You're right. I think about that with you. I think people, especially when they're gaggle flying, they tend to get scared of losing that lift so they stay exactly where they are. You're proving that you can do it. You're proving that you can do it. You're proving that you can sample all over the place and still stay on top. Yeah, that's a nice move. Well, I think in competition flying, it's to a fault. I actually have lost probably days because of that, especially at a World Cup level where everybody stays in one place.
You have to just stay with them. But for cross country flying, which is ultimately – I mean that's the thing I always remind myself. That's what I'm most into. I got into competition because it was cross country competition. It was a competition cross country.
For cross country, it works great still for me. It can be on a very small level, just even within the thermal. I think it's just like year after year after year of doing that and you start to build a good sense of space and where you should have your glider. I also fly really flat. I use a lot of outside brake and I push it out to yaw the glider. So I think that is another one. I don't fly – it's very rarely that I just like bank it up. I'm kind of a flat turner, I think. I don't know. It's hard. It's hard when people ask what kind of pilot you are. I have no idea actually.
You're a good one.
You know what I mean? They're like, what's your style? I'm like, I don't know. We have styles. I don't even know what the styles are to be honest.
I know one of your goals was to make the U.S. team and represent us at Worlds, which you've done now twice or more. Is it the last two, right? No, just two. Yeah, the last two. There was a lot of talk when you guys went out. We always get so excited about watching. On a good day, you and Josh and Eric, who represented us the last two, can beat anybody. But in the Worlds, we've been pretty weak compared. Compared to the Swiss and the French, there are the obvious reasons for that. They have a lot more money. They have a lot more hours. It's much easier to fly in Europe. There's a whole long list. But what can we do as a nation to improve?
That's a good question. I've had two terrible performances in the Worlds. For me personally, I don't want to race a paraglider for two weeks. That doesn't interest me anymore at all. One week is about the max. I really want to race a paraglider for a number of reasons. I don't have the constitution to race, to push full bar for two weeks, I think. I just wear down. I don't care that much. When my ADD kicks in, I just don't care for two weeks. It's not fun to me after day eight. It's just a job. Right. I'm doing it for fun.
It's also just tremendous. You have to take three weeks off of work, essentially. It cuts into anything else you want to do that year.
I don't know. I want to still do World Cups. A week is perfect for me. As a team, I don't know what we can do. Last year, I had a bit of bad luck health-wise. That was tough. Then I definitely was luck anyway. Maybe we could all get together and fly a little bit more together, but it's a weird thing, because you don't fly together during the comp. It's an individual. It's not a team sport, typically. I don't even know what the French can... They have really good briefings. They have maps.
Farmer took on the role this year, and did an amazing job as team leader. Moving forward, maybe they could even figure out... we could even figure out what happens when Farmer comes on the team. altitudes for final glide you know and so that you have those written down um you know maybe do more training before we did some we did enough training last year that didn't work yeah i think we just fall apart our flying style is too aggressive for a 14-day competition too you know i know like in in switzerland this is something that i've been wanting to do for the last couple years i just haven't been able to have the time or the schedule and stuff with stuff going on but you know like the swiss have their league like every weekend you know you're flying with you know some of the best a lot of the best pilots in the world every weekend racing and it's just it's like training you know i mean i think that we get the opportunity to fly big lines when the weather lines up but it's not the same it's not training um and it just seems like we're so spread out uh and our sites are so uh notoriously uh inconsistent that it's pretty hard to do that you know in europe even when the weather's bad you can go fly you can go set a little small task like they do at wood rat you know when the weather's not that good and it just seems it seems like we've got a lot stacked up against us but i it yeah it's curious to hear um your thoughts on that because like i said it seems like independently um you know we've got great talent it's just hard to do it as a team yeah no i think that's i think your points are very valid you know yeah we don't we don't compete enough i mean i'm i'm not
i guess maybe like maybe we've made mandatory for each pilot to do at least like three competitions or four competitions that year of the world you know when you look back um you know if you could imagine yourself back to those early days when you were a 50 hour pilot maybe at the end of those 31st days at tory um what is what was what's some advice when you look back on your the beginning of your paragliding career that you would have liked to have gotten that you didn't yeah that's a good question um traveled even harder and flown in even more places now that my i'm having you know body problems in terms of my you know my back and stuff right i wish i would have gone a little harder i guess um yeah done more sivs uh yeah i don't know um i mean i've been really lucky i've been very fortunate um i've i've had a safe relatively safe uh you know track record one minor injury and invited bravo mexico at the turn point called el scroto and
that's it that's a that's a great story i think you covered that with with carrie on her podcast i'll point i'll put that in the show notes if people want to listen to the el scroto tree they can they can listen to it that's a great story uh and um yeah i mean i don't know have fun keep it that's it it's it's you know it's pretty simple it's you know nate has been a huge mentor um you know bill belcourt has been a huge mentor uh flying wise as well coming back to the states just kind of helping me keep my head right and keep things in perspective and you know the main thing that nate has always stressed is like have fun you know and you know when i look at when i was having fun i was learning the most and so if you're not having fun you're not doing it right and you need to change and make you know make whatever it is you know you're doing fun for you whether that be now i like sled rides or i like you know um there's also that learning progression you know that you have to respect and it's like sometimes if you skip past it that means you're not having fun at anymore you've gone past your abilities and you've gone past where the fun is um and sometimes you need to take a step back in order to you know move three steps forward um so i'm you know i think i think that don't be afraid to step back in order to move forward
my my uh one of my supporters in the x-ops a guy you know uh bruce marks had a really bad crash in the sass valley one of those you know incredibly lucky to be alive and incredibly walked away um and through his reserve but too low and what didn't come out but it stopped his rotation and we won't get into too much but it really set him back um he was flying incredibly aggressively and uh really getting after it you know a couple back-to-back years of 500 hours um have you been through i mean and he's just now that was two summers ago and he's just now kind of you know he stepped way back on wings went down to a mentor this summer um and he's just now really coming back to where it's fun again um which has been a delight to see um have you gone through times like that yourself yeah i uh i threw my reserve in sun valley i was i kind of moved up to comp wings and um i was you know i went flying and and uh it was before there was a nationals in sun valley and i was tired and i just flown a couple tandems and you know i remember telling myself like oh well you need to go flying when you're tired and worked you know that's good practice it's good training um you know whereas i should have been thinking like
it's time to go flying you know um and so i went up and i yeah i i took off on a comp wing and almost you know pretty much i had to throw my reserve and i got really lucky i got it out i remember thinking if this doesn't open i'm dead and as soon as i thought that it opened and then it was like oh blam and then i hit the ground um and so it was midday in sun valley you know i just got yeah got taught what was what and um and so from there i tried to get back on the i i had been given a comp wing for the first time it was like my first you know i i had a thing in the in cross country a future hero section you know and i was i was like 39th in the world wprs or 49th i don't know something like that and i was feeling pretty pretty badass um and so it was really hard like you know and also you you know the way i had lived up to then i built kind of my identity around paragliding you know um and so it was very hard for me to take my medicine and
i was flying this comp wing and i was scared and you know and also that the one that i had was something wrong with it for sure i think and i i was with nate over the boulders like pretty deep over the boulders and i just lost it and i i cascaded for about 2 000 feet um and i i pretty much flew back to Sun Valley packed it up and sold it and then stepped back you know to a two three which was the glider you know a trango two which is what you know and i i flew a two three i flew for two seasons um until i could go back to comp gliders um and uh yeah so it was it was it was good though it's like one of those you know one of those things where you know finally i listened you know and nate helped me too he's like dude you get you know get off the comp wing it's your your work you know and because i was just up there just like oh my god every little bump right can you imagine six hours oh god what was that yeah um it happens who would do that you
know because there's no way um but yeah it was about putting the ego aside putting aside the fact that you know i was a comp pilot in my mind that's what i dedicated my life for the last years to doing um even you know putting away the fact that i just got this free wing for the you know i just was sponsored quote unquote doing what was right and doing what was healthy and what would help me in the long run progress as a pilot um and i think sometimes it's hard for people to see that because there's all those factors i think you're you're talking about staying in touch and in tune with where you are mentally you know when when you came out and and uh for the intermountain comp that nate had this this summer here i had just gotten back from the ex-alps and um you know we flew it was insane you flew like 38 hours in five days it was incredible i mean we'd never get weather like that here it was just perfect um and i woke up every day hoping it was going to rain because i i knew that i wasn't on my game and i knew that i was tired and uh you know i i was flying that the wing at the end of the X-Ops that went in the ocean, and I was pretty sure it wasn't tuned very well, and I just was, you know, it was kind of my first bout of flying not very confidently, and it's scary, and you really do have to listen to that, you know, and I kept flying because it was like, you were here, and it was awesome, and I felt like I just shouldn't miss a day when it was so good, but it was, you know, in some ways, it was pretty silly for me to be in the air, and I came out of that week thinking a lot about, you know, wait a minute, this is supposed to be fun.
It was fun, but it wasn't fun enough.
Yeah, I mean, it's a dangerous, you know, endeavor, you know, and so for me, any of these dangerous endeavors, they have to be worth it, and that's something I think everybody needs to ask themselves seriously, you know. I mean, also, too, you know, we're having some serious safety, you know, like I talked with Belcourt about this the other day, and he doesn't think it's a... He thinks it's normal. It's like a regression to the mean, our safety. You know, we've had a lot of deaths this year in the U.S., a lot of injuries. You know, we may lose our insurance because of that, and, you know, we... You know, I'm kind of of the mind that we all need to do something collectively to focus more on safety, you know, and make sure every time that you're leaving the ground that, you know, you're ready to leave the ground, and then, you know, also,
we have to make sure that people that aren't going to leave the ground aren't, like, meandering around our flying sites. And my opinion is that we all have to collectively get together and make a change here in the U.S., and, you know, instead of high-fiving for the longest flight, we should be high-fiving people for safe flights or, you know, everything. Everything is good, so... A different approach. I think it was, you know, we had Nate on the show a couple shows back, and, you know, he made the decision this summer to step down from a comp glider, and he's just been, you know, loving it on his Triton, you know, an ENC glider, and really enjoying that. I think there's... That's been a common theme that's run through all these podcasts is safety and risk, and, you know, I think returning from the Owens event, you know, two major accidents out there, and I don't want to belabor the safety thing, but I agree with you.
I think that, you know, the real lesson there on both of those, and, you know, you can never call it from the outside, and I don't want to diminish or demean anything that happened there, but, you know, I believe... I think the consensus was is both those guys had the opportunity to throw their reserve, you know, and what we were talking about was, you know, throw it hard and throw it early. They work. We had another reserve throw, I think, day three, and that guy, you know, landed and packed it up and walked away, you know, no problem whatsoever, so I think it is a good thing to revisit this stuff, and... You know, make sure we're flying safe. Yeah, I've probably seen over a hundred reserve tosses in 15 years, and I've never heard of someone being injured.
Wow. You know, I mean, there was days of Petrohita during the British Open. There'd be seven in a day. Golly. Amazing. This one guy, I mean, it was like he threw it like 12,000 feet. Like, he's going to come down in like an hour.
Another guy, he got sucked up into a cloud, and... And... And he's on the radio, and it was really annoying. I mean, he's like, I am at 4,000 meters. He was like giving us like where he was every 10 meters. Almost like he wanted to get on there and be like, shut up and die like a man, you know?
And finally, you know, he's like, I have returned to a point of no advantage. May I continue racing? You're like, what? Like, he got sucked up, spit out, and then he spiraled down and wanted to keep racing. I was like, that guy, he was a star.
I would have just gone and folded up and like left. That's amazing. Well, it's interesting you bring that up because, you know, Michael Vichy, really, really good comp pilot in this year's X-Alps for the first time, he threw his reserve in the race way high, apparently, like 3,000 meters, and he landed in a lake. And, you know, I asked him about it afterwards, you know, like, hey, why'd you throw so early? And he's like, why not? You know, I lost my glider so badly, and I've never thrown my reserve. And I thought that when it first, you know, the way it went was just going to be unrecoverable. And I was over a lake. And I thought, shit, man, that is genius. Yeah. Yeah, when in doubt, whip it out. I mean, it's, so, yeah, I think we need to focus on that.
You know, it's, you know, there's two theories. You know, some people say, well, you know, if you read a ski magazine, it doesn't talk about avalanches all the time. And then there's another theory that says, you know, we need to educate ourselves. And basically, you know, in the U.S. HPA magazine, you're going to start seeing accident reporting again. It's taken us a long time to figure out the legal implications for doing that. But I remember when I was, you know, a new pilot, that's the number one thing I would read, because I didn't want to do that, you know. And so I didn't want to do what these people were doing. So there's a piece of advice, actually. Always be willing to be inconvenienced. You know, one of the threads that I saw through these ads, accidents, was that I wanted to get to my car, so I crashed into this thing.
I didn't want to walk, so I hit this thing. I didn't want to do this, so I decided to put it in a sketchy place instead of a sweet place that was a mile away, you know. So I would say that that's kept me out of trouble a lot. I remind myself of that a lot, you know. Like, hey, dude, like, are you just kind of lazy right now, or is this the best place to land? Especially when you're flying cross country and, you know, open distance kind of stuff where you're out in these random places. Yeah. Because, you know, really first learning, I think I got the most, one of the most valuable lessons watching an accident. And I'll relay it here, because I think it's, you know, something people should think about in that same theme of, you know, making a judgment call that could save your life and be slightly inconvenienced.
I was flying outside of Annecy. It was a guided trip with a guy named Toby Cologne, and he had a really good safety record. And this, but this day, this particular, this particular day was really windy. And so he brought us to a place that was kind of down out of the mountains. It was low. It was basically a ridge-soaring site. It was on a cliff edge. And the weather was really bad. You know, big cells were coming through, and it just was not an obvious flying day. And he asked all the students, you know, before we went off, you know, what do you guys think of today? And every one of us was kind of like, I don't know, it kind of looks dicey. And Jody, my partner at the time, was the only one that was like, it's not a flying day. I'm not going. And Toby was like, I don't know. He was like, well, I think actually it's, you know, you can fly today. You just have to fly between the cells, get on the ground before something comes through, which sounds kind of ludicrous looking back.
And, I mean, he was right, but then you did have to, you had to be on the ground between these things. You know, if something came through, you had to make the judgment call, when is it coming? How fast is it coming? So he relied a lot on skill that I think a lot of us didn't have. Anyway, we all launched, and I got quite lucky because I bombed. And then as this cell kind of started coming closer to us, three people were still in the air. One guy, a very low hours pilot, maybe 50 hours, Toby and my friend Bruce, who was my supporter in the race. And I radioed to them and said, hey, this thing's coming really fast. You can see that there's a lot of wind on the ground. You know, you guys need to get on the ground or run, you know, go over the back. And Bruce and Toby ran.
They were high enough that they could get over this ridge, and they ran off the back. And, you know, this poor other guy didn't have, you know, he wasn't high enough and didn't really have those skills in his toolbox. And he really, all he had was big ears. So he put in his big ears, and he was trying to get down to this field in front of this ridge right when this thing hit. And it was just like watching a horror movie. You know, his wing was completely out of control. He was getting tossed around, and then there was power lines, and we're all radioing, look out for that, and look out for that. And finally, about 30 minutes later, he was out of control. About 30 feet off the ground, his wing just went parachutal, and he hit hard. And he kind of, you know, this was the second lesson was he kind of tried to stick it instead of doing a nice PLF.
Because it was big, long grass, and he maybe would have been okay, or maybe a sprain or something if he would have just rolled with it. But he tried to stick it and, you know, save the reader or save the listener all the gory details, but he got really hurt. And, you know, the whole time he was doing that, I kept thinking, God, all he's got to do is turn downwind. And ditch it into the trees. There was this huge canopy of lovely, soft French trees, you know, where he would have most likely destroyed his glider. And maybe he would have, you know, maybe he would have gotten unlucky and hit a branch pretty hard or something. Or, you know, like you did, El Scroto, the tree, but, you know, he would have most likely been completely fine. And it made me realize at that time, ever since then, I've always been looking for what are the options here.
You know, because. I think eventually, if you paraglide, you will get an error that is bad. You know, you will probably push it too far at some point or not read the sky well enough and have to deal. And I think it's a good idea to be willing to inconvenience yourself or to, you know, land in water, land in a lake, land somewhere that's safer. And maybe you destroy your gear, but you get to walk away. You have, you know, since winning nationals last year. And, you know, you went to worlds, I know, but you've kind of dropped off the competition scene a little bit. What are you kind of focusing on these days? What are your what are your goals with paragliding and life? Yeah, well, I was I got injured, just a degenerative back thing.
About four days into Columbia, it got really bad so that I could, you know, I couldn't really sit for more than 10 minutes. And if I did, I have to hold on to something from pain when I stood up. So I had I had back surgery. And so I've just been recovering from that. And that took a long time, just maybe finally recovering. I hesitate to even say that, but, you know, I had to kind of walk again. And then, you know, so anyway, during that time, I thought a lot about, you know, what I had been doing, what I wanted to do in the future. And for me, you know, I've been competing for so, you know, for 13 years. And that was a huge part of my life and always will be. But this year, I just you know, I only have time for one or two trips. So. And, you know, I wanted to, you know, we went to Nepal and to film the Karma Flights crew there.
And then I went to Iran. So to basically, you know, check out this this culture that, you know, that our culture basically hides. And so for me, I was getting back a little bit to my roots of utilizing the canopy as a as a mechanism of travel, you know, for both in the air and on the ground. And, you know, across continents and and that's, you know, kind of I don't know, I just I'm running out of time. It's how I look at it, you know, body wise, you know, I guess it was my first realization. I had a good run, but it's my first realization that the clock is ticking. And if I want to do some of these things, I have to do them now.
So, you know, competition I can do when I'm 50. Yeah. Maybe I'll be that guy on the one to just, you know, having a ball. All the young kids are like, who is this old geezer?
And do you have. Do you have goals in terms of, you know, still flying big lines or, you know, I know that you recently moved to Salt Lake and you and Bill and Cody and some of the guys down there looking at some pretty interesting lines. What do you what are you and you were planning on? I think it got shut down because rain this year, but you were planning on joining the ozone team for another record breaking attempt in Texas. Are those still kind of on your radar? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, that's what I mean. I mean, that's it's just the the cross country part will is still alive and stronger than ever. I mean, I had my biggest year cross country wise in a lot of years because I wasn't competing so that I could just be here.
You know, during rat race, I flew 170 miles or something. And, you know, it's just because you're here. You have to be there to get it. I mean, that's how you do it. You know, you get to a certain level, but then it's just like surfing. You know, we're waiting for the swell, you know, and the swell only comes in once every five years sometimes. Right. You know. And so, yeah, I'm really enjoying that. I'm enjoying waiting for the swell. I'm enjoying just mountain biking more. And but still like, yeah, no, we're going to I'm going to go for the world record. Congratulations to Frank Brown and the crew in Brazil. Yeah. I'd like to go down there. And, you know, that's on my list next year. I'd like to go to Kiro Valley, you know, in Kenya. We've talked about that. And that's still on my list. And, yeah, there's just, you know, no, I mean, I'm if anything, you know, it's I just slowed down on competing just because of the time. You know, I just did.
I couldn't justify using that time for competing and not using it for Iran. I was also trying to go to Iran with, you know, we've been trying to go to Iran. I was I was the last man standing. So, you know, and for two years. And so the way that it worked, I was pretty much on hold all summer waiting for a visa. So, yeah, it's like when I say something's got to give. And, you know, I'm working a lot more.
Unfortunately, I'm buying a lot more things. Yeah.
That's what. Working more means, I think, in this country.
So, yeah. So it's something's got to give. But I'm going back to Nepal with a crew from Keene and we're going to finish up a project where we're documenting Karma Flights and Karma Flights' effort in Nepal. I couldn't be more proud to call on my friends, Isabella and Prem and Loxman and Nirwan and Jamie Messenger and all of the people who have donated or been a part of the effort. Tim Exley, in some way, you know, we raised this year. I've been working a lot on the cloud based foundation stuff, you know, instead of competing. I mean, that's the thing. It's like if you go to if I went to comps, I've had less time to do my volunteer stuff. And I just I mean, I'll go back next year. I'm missing it. You know, I'll do some next year.
But I'm working a lot with the cloud based foundation and trying to get our theories of change dialed in and try to figure out some, you know, get a new website up and figure out how to streamline our process a little bit. And but we had, you know, after. After the earthquake, you know, the paragliding hang gliding community and the world in general donated about four hundred fifty to five hundred thousand dollars towards rebuilding Nepal through the cloud based foundation for and karma flights. And they're doing what's amazing is what they're doing with it. I mean, they make this I mean, they barely ever. I mean, it's like we still have a lot of it because they're partnering with a lot of organizations. They're really stretching out the dollar. So we partner with on most projects and, you know, they're they're doing things, you know, that I couldn't. Be more proud of and and and doing them in a way that's sustainable and transparent and you can locally based and and,
you know, basically need oriented as well. So because we don't have a huge bureaucracy like a lot of these NGOs like we saw in Haiti, Gavin, we can move at the speed of need. And that's kind of a beautiful thing that I think a niche that we're really relishing. And it's also a niche that fits our paragliding mentality, you know, where it's fluid and changing. And, you know, and if the village, you know, all of a sudden it's like the village has temporary structures, but they need solar. Well, then we work on solar instead of saying, well, no, we we only do temporary shelter. There's another story. I mean, you really should interview Bella. I've let her tell her stories. But, you know, those stories, those guys, I mean, the work that they have done is nothing. I mean, it's miraculous. And so, yeah, if you see them ever buy them a beer because, I mean, they couldn't have, you know, bought them a beer.
Put our, you know, our sport and our people in a better light. It's it's really, truly, truly something to behold. So I'm really I'm really grateful to go back and help tell their story and get, you know, GoPro is, you know, Gavin, you connected me with GoPro for a cause, you know, kind of to tell a few stories. And they are really excited about the Nepal one and the cloud based foundation and are going to become we're officially partnering with them to to tell the story of karma flights and of how to rebuild Nepal. And tourism in Nepal. And there's going to be a campaign to a matching donation. So they're going to put up the first thirty thousand dollars. And, you know, we're going to you know, we'll come back to you, Gavin, get you to push us through these channels. But, you know, we as pilots need to rally around and try to raise 30 more.
And and then, you know, it's the world's the our oyster. That's awesome, man. That's super inspiring. It's like it sounds like the opposite of what we saw in terms of, quote, unquote, aid in Haiti. And it's it's really nice to see dollars being put to good use like that. That's that's really neat. I've been following Bella's work on Facebook. I should get her on the show. That's just awesome. It's so cool to see. Well done. Yeah, I mean, it's it's yeah, it's and that's what I mean. It's just for me, it's, you know, you and I have worked over the years telling stories and learning how to film and filming more and more. And we've succeeded. For me, it's a real honor to utilize some of these skills that we've learned to tell the stories. Cool. Well, that's. That's a that's a really good place to end. Thank you so much, Nick.
Why don't we before we sign off? I know I know sponsorship's been a really cool part of your your life the last few years. Do you want to give a shout out to to some of those groups and and then we'll we'll we'll wrap it up. And hopefully next time I see you, we'll be flying around the sky somewhere. Sounds good. Yeah. You know, a huge thank you to Kavu and Keen. Both of those companies have been the biggest supporters of hang gliding and paragliding in the U.S. and year after year have funded and supported. You know, actually, Keen was the reason why, you know, one of the reasons why Karma Flights kind of became what it is today. They Jeff Shapiro, who's been on your show and basically Jeff O 'Brien and I helped start with Isabella and Prem Keen to Learn program in Nepal.
And that was the kind of the cornerstone of the Karma Flights, you know, kind of office for the first four years of its existence. So thank you to Keen. For doing that, they also helped recycle paragliders into backpacks, you know, to get keep those out of the landfill. And a huge thanks to Kavu for always supporting paragliding and hang gliding. Very cool. Very cool. Well, Nick, thanks very much. Really, really, as always, appreciate your time. I always feel like every time I talk to you, I get a lot smarter and listeners enjoyed it and appreciate it, buddy. Talk to you soon. Yeah. Thank you.
Well, I hope you enjoyed that. I certainly did. I have to apologize for the quality of the audio. Nick and I did that over Skype. I'm still kind of figuring that out because there's often echoes and my Internet's not great here in Ketchum sometimes. So I had quite a battle with a lot of that stuff. I tried to edit it as best I could and hopefully it wasn't too annoying. Always just such a great pleasure to sit down and speak with somebody who's had such a positive impact on my life. I hope some of the things he had to say will have a positive impact on yours as well. Thank you. As always, following in the footsteps of a podcast that I am totally addicted to, Dan Carlin's Hardcore History, highly recommended. All we ask for is a buck show. We don't have any sponsors or anything like that. And I will continue doing this. I love it. I love the education I'm getting and passing on.
I hope it's really valuable. It certainly is fun. But it also allows me to buy beers and take these guys out for dinner for their time. And it goes a long way. You all have been incredibly generous. I appreciate your notes. And thanking me for doing it. That goes a long ways. If you have the time, I would love a rating on Stitcher or iTunes. Of course, that helps. This is a tiny little niche, but it's certainly been, I think, proving valuable in the human flight world. So feel free to rate us on that if you wouldn't mind. You can find me on Facebook or Instagram. If you have people that you want to recommend or you want to hear on the show, for sure, let me know. Next week, I'm sitting down with Josh Cohn. The Josh Cohn. Josh Cohn. Josh Cohn. Just out with him at U.S.
Nationals in the Owens. And so that should be a great show. And then I'll be up in Banff for the film festival for the premiere of The Rockies Diverse with Will Gadd. And I've been promising Will Gadd on the show, so I'm bringing my audio gear. And I promise to pin him down up there. Not an easy thing to do. He's a busy guy, but I promise I'll get him on the show soon. So thank you very much for listening. I appreciate it. And we'll catch you next time. Cheers.