Well, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you are in the world. Welcome to another episode of the Cloud-Based Mayhem Podcast. Super psyched to get this one out to you as I'm leaving tomorrow for overseas for a couple weeks. I was just out in the Owens this last week for the U.S. Nationals and got to fly around the sky on some fantastic tasks with a lot of great pilots. And one of those visiting pilots, which was really exciting for me and a lot of others, was Mads Syndergaard. I really wanted to sit down with him. We were in California, but, you know, as meets get pretty busy and there were a couple of pretty bad accidents, which we actually talk about in this podcast a little bit, but I didn't get a chance. So I sat down with him on Skype last night. He's over in Europe. I was here. So we had a huge difference in time zones, but it all worked out.
We talk about some fascinating subjects here. Mads has been on the competition scene, I think, since 94. He's been flying since 87. Always a real honor to be able to hear the stories. And get the insights from somebody who's been in the game for so long. But the reason I wanted to sit down with Mads, not only his great book, Flying Rags to Glory, but he gave a talk at the Owens about, you know, just mental preparation and how to win and how to stay positive. He uses a term called priming. We talk in this episode quite a bit about anarchy. He's been a very vocal figure in the whole. Dissolving of the open class and the serial class and his attempt to get a kind of another competition scene off in the World Paragliding Series, which didn't work.
We talk about that. He has been very vocal about last year's. I don't know how we want to call it, but last year's debacle with Ozone and the Enzo 2 and basically them, you know, giving out a wing that was totally different than what was certified. I don't know how we want to call it, but last year's debacle with Ozone and the Enzo 2 and basically them, you know, giving out a wing that was totally different than what was certified. And where that has led, you know, we basically have one company now in the competition scene and and how Mads feels about that. You know, he really feels that that's detracting from the sport and hurting the competition scene. But Mads has been, you know, had a lot of success in competitions. He talks a lot about how that has worked for him and what he thinks people now he thinks people need to approach it and approach safety.
We talk about the inevitable risk in this game. We're all playing. A lot of great things here. I think you're going to really enjoy this talk. We dug deep, got into it and and had a lot of fun. Without further ado, Mads.
Mads, how are you? It's good to talk to you.
It's awesome. I'm very pleased to be to be on your line here. It's you've got a very impressive lineup of people talking to you. So I'm quite flattered to be one of them. Well,
that you know, that's my secret is it's it's not me. It's it's.
It's just it's just a lot of fun. It's just a lot of fun. And it's just it's unfortunate you and I couldn't do this in person last week when we were together in California. But you know how those comps go. They just they soak up all your time. And it was it was quite a busy week. So I'm really excited to be able to do it anyway. And funny, funny change in hours here. It's it's 1240 in the morning or it's almost one o 'clock here. And I think you're just getting your day going. But I think we're going to have a good time.
Yeah, it'll be great. I tell you why. Why we were so busy while we were at the meet in Owens is because we'd never been in that region of the world before. So we had so many things we really needed to see while we were there. And we managed almost all of it. So it was a fantastic week for us. But it was very busy. I agree.
Yeah, it was a fantastic comp, wasn't it? It was really special for us. You know, you and I are going to talk a lot about competitions here in a bit. But it's always really special for us to get you guys to come over, you know, to have you. You and Joelle and the other Mads. And that's a very special thing for us because we always feel like we don't know what the hell we're doing. And it's nice to have you guys come over and show us around our skies. That was that was pretty. For the you know, for a lot of the listeners here, you know, you're you're a household name. And a lot of our listeners and I know know a lot about you. But I think a lot are more like me. You know, I've been reading your your your excerpts in in the core and in the magazines for a long time. And on your blog, which is fascinating in your book, of course, which is, you know, one of my Bibles.
But I think for a lot of people, it would be, you know, if we could take a few minutes and just give them your history, because you've got a long history in paragliding. You know, I sat down last week with Nate Scales, and I think people really enjoy that. Just hearing where you started and the wings you flew. And how did you get into this crazy game?
Well, you know, I was one of those kids who always had that dream when I was a little boy. Of being able to swim in the air, I could swim in my dreams, and I could just jump off anything and just start swimming breaststroke, actually in the air. And I would swim in my dreams. I'd swim around school up and down the stairways and just be that little bit above the other kids that they couldn't reach me. And that was my recurring dream in childhood. And it was a very good dream. I can tell you that because I was a little kid and they always used to bully me. But when I was. Lying there, and they couldn't bully me anymore. Sure. So that was my dream. And then one day back in 87, a friend of mine who'd been living in Norway, he came back from Norway and he bought a paraglider there.
And if you looked at it today, you wouldn't you wouldn't consider it a paraglider. It didn't even look like a parachute. It looked like I don't know what it looked like. It was awful. But we took that thing and we flew it off any. Any hill or lump that we could find that was steep enough. And that weren't very many. I can promise you that. I don't know if you're familiar with Danish geography, but it is a very flat place.
And so were
you flying then? Would you go down into the kind of the Bavarian Alps? Would you get down into Germany? Or were you doing this in Denmark?
That was only in Denmark in the first couple of years. And then after a few years, I did go to Austria to actually get licensed. And. And. Uh. That happened in the winter of 88, 89. Okay. And the education that we received at that time, it took a week to get your license then. And the education was almost entirely irrelevant for what we were going to do. It was, you know, it was no wind running forward down a steep slope and then flying a few feet off the ground and then landing again. And. Uh. And, uh, it had nothing to do with what we would be doing when we got back to Denmark, but it gave us the paperwork and that was what we needed.
Like Nate said last week when I had him on the show, you know, he took a lesson from a guy and he did his first flight and he landed and the guy said, now, you know, all that I know, he was the instructor, you know, like, you know, everything I know.
Oh, man. Yeah, it was. It was not quite that bad because they didn't know a lot of other things, but the things that they knew were just absolutely and completely irrelevant for us. And because in Denmark, if you want to fly, you got to have quite a lot of wind because the slopes are very, uh, um, low and, uh, especially with the gliders we had back then, it was either blowing too much. And then you got blown back over the ridge or it was not blowing enough and then you landed. So, and, and, you know, we didn't even know that you could reverse launch. I think that was only just starting to emerge at that time. So we got back and some, some other kids here in Denmark had, had been flying for a few months already and they'd worked out this reverse launch thing already.
And we saw that and then, uh, that solved a lot of our problems. I can tell you that because normally you'd get dragged around for a long time before you even had the glider over your head. Anyway. Yeah. I mean, I
read in your, I read in your profile that you've been flying competitions, I think, but in the profile it said in 19 years, so that means 21 years. Cause that was in 2014. Um, you must've progressed really fast.
Yeah. Well, I, I, I took up competition after five years of being certified. So I don't think that's super fast compared to some of the kids today. I, I start my, my first competition was a world cup in 95. Uh, in Brazil and, and, uh, before that we'd done some soaring competitions in Denmark, but you know, that doesn't really compare it's, it, it was all about touch and go on the beach and up on the slope and that sort of thing. So that doesn't really compare, but I was, um, I was Danish champion back in 92 on a, on a soaring competition. I was the best at the touch and go thing. Wow.
And so, okay. So I jumped a little bit too far ahead then. So how, when did you start discovering, um, that they could go, they could go from A to B?
That would have been in 92 as well. I'd built a static winch or a stationary winch out of an old Volvo, um, automatic transmission car. And we were, uh, we'd found a towing paddock somewhere close to where I used to live and we were towing out there. And, uh, eventually. Uh, we got hold of some variometers as well. And then, uh, when we had the beeper and we were towing up to five, 600 meters, then we worked out that, uh, sometimes it actually beeped and you can turn, you could turn in it. So, uh, I did, I did a cross country flight in Denmark in 92, and that would definitely have been the first cross country flight on a paraglider in Denmark.
Wow. But you, at that point, did you, did you know about cross? Or was this something you just randomly discovered when the thing made some beeps and you started wanting to go, oh, I could, I could, I'm going to fly over there.
Yeah, no, we, we, we were reading cross country magazine at the time already. And, you know, some of the guys were in Namibia back in, in 90 or 91 and doing a hundred kilometer flights and maybe even 200 kilometer flights. So it was on your radar. Yeah, we knew what, what, what it was all about. But, uh, at the time, nobody in Denmark had done it. So it, it, it was quite, uh, quite an exciting time. Basically, we, we had a lot of fun discovering the things that one could do with a paraglider.
These guys that you learned with, uh, I'd be curious, are they still mates or they still, they still flying buddies or any of those guys that you first learned with still in the game?
Yeah. Um, there's just one guy who, who, um, who stopped completely and he, he had quite a serious accident in 96 and he didn't want to come back to it. And I can relate to that. But the rest of the crowd, uh, had a, a long break in the, in the, um, 2000s, but they've been slowly coming back now that the kids are getting older and, and, uh, life is allowing for more of it. So they're actually coming back now and we're having a lot of fun together, uh, sort of rediscovering all the things that we discovered as, as very young kids, actually.
So, so it sounded like you really took to this right away, right? When you, you know, you got your. Your kind of first taste of it. Is that, is that right? Was it something you've been, and let's jump ahead a little bit. Is this something you've been passionate about since those first days? Have you also had lulls?
No, I haven't had any lulls. It has defined my life since 1990. I would say I have, I have been almost a full-time paraglider pilot for 25 years.
And we'll talk about, that's amazing. And we'll talk about UP. I mean, I know now it's your. It's literally your business. This is, and was it, were you, uh, back then, were you doing other jobs in paragliding when you could, or did you make paragliding your world right from the beginning?
Um, right from the beginning, it became my world. We started a business teaching other pilots in 92. And, uh, we ran that up until 96, 97, maybe 98 or something like that. And then, uh, for a few years, I was actually just about full-time competition pilot there because I had some Danish governmental support and I had some sponsorship and some things. So for a few years, I was full-time and then in 2003, I joined UP, uh, and, and, and I've been working together with UP ever since then.
So the, the, the competition scene, uh, for you, you said you got started in, in 94, is that right? And then, um, yeah. Um, take me through some of that. I mean, I know there's, you've done hundreds, I know, but it's, so we, it, we can't go through all of it, but what was the, what I like to hear about is the progression, you know, that, um, you talk a lot about mental preparation, but when you look back at those, those beginning years, you know, what was the, what was the focus? What was, what were you working on? Um, what maybe would you change?
Um, yeah, that's interesting. You know, the, the, the. The first few years for most competition pilots are actually just getting used to the whole thing and getting established and getting, uh, what, what, uh, French, uh, harness manufacturer, Denis Cortela, he told me quite early on, you need to learn how to lose before you can start to learn how to win. And, uh, I think what he meant was that, um, if you just get, if you only get grumpy and think everybody else has. Has it much better than you, then you're not learning from your mistakes. So, so I, I think the first couple of years, it's all about building up some, um, some mental capacity for actually taking in all the information that you need to have to be able to do well.
And also to build up some self-confidence and, and start believing that you can actually do this sort of thing. Uh, very few pilots can do that in, in their first season or. First or second season, but most pilots will need a few seasons to actually make it to that level where they can begin to believe in themselves and, and, and have reason to believe in themselves because it's not enough to just believe you, you gotta have something to base that belief on. Um, so what I would do different, um, some more coaching would have worked really well. I I'm, I'm perhaps not the easiest person to coach because, uh, I I'm quite. I'm quite stubborn, so, uh, I don't know, more coaching would have been good.
Um, also it, it, it did take me quite a long time to work out just how big a difference to your, uh, to your results, the paraglider makes in the beginning, you know, everybody's always, uh, uh, it's not about the wing. It's about the pilot and blah, blah, blah. And, uh, if you boil it right down to the, to the basics, that's actually bullshit. Because the wing makes such an enormous difference to how you're going to be flying. And I only worked that out relatively late. So I thought, yeah, it's all about the wing. It's all about the wing, but that doesn't, that isn't actually true. It, it, it, it, I know I was saying it wrong. It's all about the pilot is what you're always told, but that's actually true.
Right. So, uh, that took a while. And, and, uh, you know, as, as a poor person, I was very focused. I was focused on, on getting the sponsorship deal more than getting the right wing. And, and that can cost you, uh, quite a long time.
Interesting. Yeah. That's a, that's a very good point. Um, as I, you know, we've got a lot to talk about there with, you know, even the comp we were just in with a couple accidents. And I know you, you feel very adamant about how we should approach safety and how we should talk about safety. I don't want to get into that quite yet. I'd like to learn more. We'll, we'll go there. But I'd like to hear more about just, you know, those, those first years, did you have, um, did you have mentors? Did you have, uh, you know, people you were chasing were there, um, you know, you've had such a long career and it was, and this is a completely different question. Let's keep these separate, but, you know, is it been more competition has defined, um, your flying or has it been more free flight?
Well, actually, since I started competing in 19, 94, I haven't done any free flying, not, not in, in, on, on a big scale. Okay. So, uh, the, the flying hours that I have accumulated in the last 21 years have been maybe 95 % competition flying. Wow.
Unbelievable. Okay. Interesting.
Yeah. But, but it's all a function of the fact that I live in Denmark and the flying here really isn't that good. So, uh, when I wasn't here, I was out completely. And when I was here, I wasn't flying. So it's, it's all related to that. You know, some pilots, they live in a place where they can fly year round and, and, and just go out for a flight whenever the weather is nice. And that's just not how it works when you're, when you're from Denmark, even if the weather is nice, there's probably nobody else in the towing field. So, so they, they, yeah.
I was just going to say that. I mean, it's really interesting in that, you know, we always talk about. Training. And so your training was always at the comps.
Yes, very much so. And, and it, it, it got to a stage where if, if there wasn't a task set, then I wouldn't know what, what to do with myself. What, what was I going to do while in the air? So, so I've gotten over that slowly. Now I, now I quite enjoy, enjoy a flight for the sake of the flight. But for very many years, if there wasn't. A task, I just couldn't really see the point of launching.
That's really fascinating. Very, we've, we've had very different approaches there. You know, I, I got into competition flying because people said, you know, you'll, you'll learn more in a week of competitions than, than a, than a year of free flight. And I, and I think they're right. I think that's, you learn a lot in competitions and you learn how to fly fast and that's what you need to do to fly distance. You got to fly fast. And, uh, but that's really interesting. I, you know, it'd be, I think it would be hard for me to just shoot. Just rock up at a comp and, and kill it. You know, I always feel like I'm the first day I'm, you know, I, I need hours before I could just show up. And so that that's a testament to your, your long history.
But I, I think your approach is probably the sounder one. It's just not possible if you, if you come from a place like Denmark and, and, and the, the history has shown that it's possible to be a successful competition pilot without having that back. grounded. And there was someal ground in free flying, because, you know, uh, multiple world champion, uh, uh, girl, Louise Crandall she's, um, she's um, she's always been the same. You know, w when she started flying, it was the same. It was competitions or nothing and, and, uh, and, and she had a much faster progression than me. And, um. So it, it is. Uh, definitely. Do you, uh, it is definitely a possible approach it's just not ideal.
Yeah. And we've had at least one other pilot making it like that. And he was actually, he was successful in a non-flying career on the side. So for him, it was even more pronounced that if he wasn't flying competition, then he wasn't flying, basically. And so he would travel out the night before the comp, fly the comp and travel home again the night after the comp and be at his desk at work on Monday.
It's possible,
it's just not ideal.
Right. Yeah, you know, I was really blown away this spring. I think it was in May, you know, when I was over in Europe learning the course for the X-Alps. And I hooked up with Aaron Durogati. He and I became friends a couple of years ago at the Superfinal. And, you know, we were hiking up one day and he told me that, you know, in the last X-Alps, he had the longest flight. I think he flew like 200K one day. Remember in the 2013 X-Alps, they had incredible weather. And that just blew me away. I thought, you know, at home here, 200K is a pretty average flight, you know. And I just thought, Aaron, you're like, you know, at the time he was the world champion. And you've never flown more than 200K. You live in the Alps and, you know, he's a comp pilot. And that's what he's done.
It just is a very different approach. But if you look
at a pilot, now that you mentioned the X-Alps, a pilot like Ferdie van Schelfen from Holland, he is, in my book, he's one of the absolute heroes of the X-Alps. And he doesn't fly. You know, he does not fly paragliders. He doesn't have time for it. So he rocks up at the X-Alps and he's got maybe four hours on a paraglider that year. And then he just goes in there and crushes. Yeah, amazing.
That's just, I can't even fathom doing that. It's just incredible. You know, you watched, of course, this year. He and I had a hell of a run the last few days. I had him beat by, you know, we were trading back on day eight. He was way ahead of me and I just pulled in front of him. And then he pulled ahead of me the next day. And then I really had him and had a really scary, horrible day, day nine. And he got out in front of me and I chased him down all night. And we had a big hug at the end of that race. He never faltered. He never stopped. I thought I could chase him down. And he's a tough guy.
He's the super toughest guy. But when you talk to him, you just don't see it because he's such a friendly dude. Such a friendly guy. Yeah. So he's my hero. And for that particular reason, because he doesn't get to fly and he can still just go in there and crush it. I think that if he had been a little more current on the first couple of days of that competition, when the weather was better,
then he would have been in a much better position. But he doesn't have time for it. He has to work for a living. And a lot of people are in that situation, actually. Yeah. And they are the true heroes.
Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. We have a lot of things we can talk about there. I think for the ex-ops, to be really fair, they shouldn't announce the course until the day before the race.
I mean,
I realize it's a marketing thing. But, you know, then that would be a true testament to, you know, because it's hard for the rest of us to go over there and compete on Euro soil for one thing. But, you know, it would even the field a little bit more. I think that would be a great thing.
Having said that, if I can just make a little comment here. It's never the local hero that wins the comp.
Yeah. Isn't that funny? Yeah. Yeah. We noticed that here, you know, when I moved to town and not to pat myself on the own back, it was out of my ignorance. You know, when I moved here to Sun Valley, because I had no idea where to go or what to do, it just expanded our playing field. Because I started flying these lines that these guys were like, that's not where we go. That's not what we do. No, exactly. You know, and now in Mitch, you know, who, you know, got second and won the U.S. Nationals, or the National Championship, same thing. He came a couple years later and he gets up in the air and he goes weird places. And we all follow. And it's, you know, and you're absolutely right. Right. And we see that in comps a lot, don't we?
Yeah. So, that meet in Salt Lake City that you guys were kind enough to live in. That you came out and crashed. I've flown in the continental U.S. before. And I rocked up. My first flight was the first task. So... And
this is not, you know, I mean, I wasn't at that comp. That was before my time. But this is not the easiest air over here we have in the intercontinental. You must have been like, holy shit.
Well, the flying was actually fantastic. It was really, really good. And I just worked out that I had a very nice wing. I'd never flown the wing before. So, I launched the wing on the first day of the competition for the first time. And I worked out that it was really nice. And that just meant that I was free to concentrate on, you know, going with the flow. And not thinking like everybody else was thinking, apparently. Because what won the comp were two days where people evidently had some very clear ideas about how to do it. And I didn't have those ideas. And I was lucky enough to win a couple of days by a very, very large margin.
And that just made the whole difference. I
love it. That's fantastic. It
was a good experience.
Yeah, I bet. I bet. Let's dive into an area that I know you love to talk about. And I'm sure your hackles get raised up. And you're very vocal in this. But we can't talk to you without talking about it. You know, you tried to get a really cool thing going a couple years ago, the World Paragliding Series, which unfortunately didn't get off the ground. And that was in response to... all the, shall we say, bullshit going down with Open Class and Serial and now CCC. You know, I am not as knowledgeable in this whole realm as you guys are. I'm pretty new to paragliding relatively. So I'd love to just hear your thoughts on where that went, but also your current thoughts and where you hope it's going.
Well, the World Paragliding Series never took... took off because I was too late, basically. I think if I had seen where things were going right when the CIVL banned the Open Class and I had done it at that stage, then I think it would have taken off. But at that time, I still thought that we could... that reason would prevail. You know, it's a common thing to think. You always hope that reason will prevail. And as it turned out, reason didn't prevail. And that's when I decided to try a different approach. It was too late. People had already sold their Open Class wings and traded them for E &D comp wings instead.
And also, you know, it's all about critical mass. And we never reached critical mass. People were sitting on the fence waiting for other people to sign up. And they didn't do it. And it was a shame, but it's not something that I have sleepless nights over. Because, you know, the best you can do is give it a shot. And if it doesn't work out, you try something else. And that's fine.
The problem, as I see it right now, is that we've basically got
just one brand running the whole show. And that's not healthy for the whole industry. It's just not a good situation. And it's not a good situation for anyone, really, because back when I started, there were maybe 15 or 20 brands involved in competition flying. And that meant that there were sponsorship deals to be had for young, talented pilots who were keen to do it on a serious basis. And of course, nowadays, with just one brand being represented, they'd be stupid to give gliders away. Because if you don't buy them, if you don't have the wing, then you're not in it.
So you're probably the only sponsored pilot on the planet at the moment. And, you know, that's
a shame. I
think you might be right.
Yeah, it is a shame.
No, that's a shame because it makes the entry threshold much harder and much higher. And, you know, now, when I started, it was a lot of young kids with no money, but a lot of passion. And now it's a lot of middle-aged guys with money to burn. And they've got passion. Don't get me wrong. They have got the passion. But it's just a very different scene to that vibrant, youthful scene of kids who do it because they can't help it.
This is a really good segue because, you know, Nick Greece is charged with this in the United States, running USHPA Magazine, getting people into the sport. And that's been something I've really taken personally with films, you know, with working with Will Gadd and doing 500 Miles from Nowhere and doing all these films to try to get, you know, young people into the sport. Is that where you see – is that the major barrier? Is it cost?
I don't know how it is in the States. You know, the U.S. is a funny place because if you're just a working person in the U.S., then you get two weeks of holiday per year and that's it. Mm-hmm. But there seems to be such an enormous amount of people who are not just working people in the U.S. and who have time to burn. And I don't personally know how that works. But in Europe, you know, we have more holidays than you guys do. But if we aren't working, then we're not living. So there does seem to be, you know, more cash floating about.
And so I don't know if it's the main barrier in your end of the world, but it sure is right where I am. If you're a young person coming from Northern Europe, then if there's no sponsorship to be had anywhere, then it's going to be really, really hard. It's going to be just about impossible because it all happens at the same time, you know. It's when you should be starting a career at some professional life of some sort and then you decide that you want to go and spend six months per year on paragliding competitions. So without any sponsorship, there's just no new blood coming in.
That's for sure. And, you know, it's difficult for me to be absolutely unequivocal on this because... I don't actually much like that idea that we should have lots of media exposure and lots of mainstream sponsorship in paragliding. I don't think that paragliding is very well suited for that because it's too dangerous to become mainstream, in my opinion. But I did like the situation we had where it was in the interest of the manufacturers to support talented young pilots to become better, faster, and to be... showcasing the products out at the meets. So, you know, while I'm saying that you shouldn't be relying on Coca-Cola or Nike or the big mainstream brands because that will corrupt the thing in a direction that we shouldn't be going, I would like to see a return to a situation where the brands have more interest in the comp scene.
Yeah, it's a place where they just can't go right now. You know, you can't make any money. You can't sell enough gliders. You know, why do it? The R &D is expensive. It's just... So, let's get back to that. Where... What do you think about the CCC class? Where would you like to see this? And let's combine this with the glider you're flying. You know, you're flying the Trango 2, right? Trango X3. X3, okay. Yeah. What, Hanzo flew in the X? Hanzo flew in the X. So, let's talk about all that. That decision and also, you know, is that what you'd fly if you had a choice?
Well, absolutely not. And that's not because I don't like the wing because I love the wing. But it is not my wing, if you know what I mean. My wing is a competition wing, for sure. And I love... I love my Trango even more in the Owens Valley because it is a... It's an intimidating place to fly. You know, every day on the briefings, the meat director would say, don't fly into the gullies and don't fly back into the mountains. Which is exactly
where you went. Yeah,
and the way I saw it and the way I read the whole competition was, if you didn't go into the gullies, then you weren't going anywhere, basically. Right. Because the conditions were relative. The conditions were relatively stable and the gullies were where it was happening. So, I was super happy to be on a solid and trustworthy wing in that particular competition. But I'd be just as happy to fly there with any open class wing that I've flown over the past 24 years or how many. So, it's... But to return a little bit to the discussion about... About the current situation is, the problem isn't really the R &D cost.
Because the R &D cost... Well, the R &D is beneficial for the whole range of products that you do. So, if you're working on an open class wing on the side, then everything you learn from that is going to benefit you in one way or another for the whole range of products that you have. And that also means that... If you're not working on an open class wing, then there's a part of the knowledge expansion process that you're missing out on, basically. So, that's a shame for all the brands that are not involved with competition wings at the moment. The problem in cost is the certification cost, basically.
Because if you're the money man in a paragliding manufacturing business and you're looking at trying to... Re-enter the competition scene, then you can just make yourself a little spreadsheet and look at what you're going to be spending on it. And at the end of the day, you're going to look at the bottom of that spreadsheet and it's going to have a big red no written all over it. Because it's just not going to be working out. The problem at the moment is that if somebody who is a budding competition pilot is looking to get a new paraglider... for their competition career, then they would be reckless to not buy the product that they absolutely know is competitive.
And that means that there will be very few pilots at normal retail price prepared to gamble on something from a new manufacturer in that field. So, to re-penetrate the competition... the competition scene with a new product is just going to be so costly because you're going to have to be sponsoring a number of pilots full on with gliders and everything. And there's just not enough money in paragliding to do that. And that's the real problem at the moment. The real problem is that the cost is just too high to get back into it. And as long as this certification theater continues,
that won't change. And do you know what? The real take-home lesson from Owens Valley and from all the other competitions that have taken place since 2011 is that it hasn't become any safer. So, people are saying, OK, we haven't had any fatal accidents in Cat 1 competitions since then. No, and that's true. But it's coincidence. It's absolute total coincidence. We saw that in the Owens Valley. We had two very serious accidents. In the first two days. And they could just as well have been lethal accidents. It was just pure coincidence that that didn't happen. And that is proof to me that it is not about the wing. It's about so many other things.
So, the situation hasn't improved in any way. But it's deteriorated in very many ways. And that makes me sad.
Yeah. You know, for guys like you, you and me, and most of the guys I fly with, I don't think this would be very appealing because we love two-liners. And I just love flying those wings. But what about going to like a one class? What about putting everybody in the same shoes and going out on the basketball court and seeing who really is the best pilot? Does that hold any... I know your answer, but I think we've got to bring it up.
You know, that's what we have at the moment, basically. You're actually right, aren't you? Yeah. That's true. And so, it has some advantages to it because everybody is on a level playing field. But there are very many disadvantages to it as well. And I don't think that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. And for the same reasons as I have mentioned, there's less R &D happening because the R &D is all happening in the same house, basically. And it's going slower because you need to certify your wing. And that means that you've got a two-year product cycle or something like that. Whereas before, everybody was working between the meets, full on working between every meet to try and improve everything.
And what I loved about the situation before was that you could rock up at a competition at the beginning of the season and you could discover that your wing wasn't actually 100 % competitive. And then you could go back home and you could keep working on it and at the next meet it might be a completely new situation. And that was very dynamic and very interesting for everyone, I thought. But it was difficult for those pilots who didn't have manufacturer affiliation of some sort. Sure. And they were always complaining that, oh, but we never get the prototypes so we never get to win. But the fact of the matter is, that it was never the same prototypes always winning.
It was always someone new. So even though the guy with absolutely no affiliation was a little bit shafted in the situation, everybody else had a much more level playing field because this week it might be me, but next week it could be you. And that was a large part of the attraction of the whole thing and it made it, very dynamic in those days.
So before we leave competitions, because I think we could talk about it forever, I'm going to steal some words from Bill Belcourt today. I was talking to Bill today about the comp and the Sierras and the canceled task day one. And I told him I was going to be speaking to you tonight and he said, okay, you have to ask him a question. He said, he said, you know, the whole ozone debacle last year, he said, he paid you a very good compliment. He said, you know, Mads is somebody that has been a proponent for anarchy since the beginning. And so, and I love that about him, but so why did he get so hung up on ozone,
basically cheating? You know, let's call it, you know, let's call an apple an apple. You know, so Bill thought that was funny. He had, he laughed hysterically when he told me this and he said, you got to ask him that because, you know, on the one hand, you have been a proponent for anarchy. On the other hand, you know, so, so why, and we know why, but why did you get so upset when ozone broke the rules? Because in a sense, they were kind of like, you know what, these rules suck, fuck them.
Yeah, no. And, and the thing about anarchy, you know, the, the way we use that word is, is actually not, not correct because anarchy in its purest form and in, in its original form is a very structured society. It, it does have very clear cut rules about most things. If, if you want to read more about it, just Google Bakunin. He was the Russian philosopher who, who, who thought of anarchy first or, or who, who put it down in words. And the thing about anarchy is that it, it doesn't have a central governing structure, but it has very clear rules about what to do and what not to do.
And, and for me, that's what's appealing about it. I don't like the central governing structure so much, but I like, I like some sort of structure so that everybody knows what's okay and what's not okay. But the thing is, as soon as you, as soon as you sit down and try to work with, uh, um, a rule-defined, uh, system, then everybody in that system depends on the rules being adhered to. And, and the reason why I got, I got really, uh, wound up about, uh, the Enso Gate was that there were people there whom I had always respected and trusted who were blatantly not respecting the rules.
And, uh, I don't like the rules, but if the rules are there, then everybody has to, uh, play by them because otherwise everything collapses. And, and, and that's what, what people don't realize about anarchy is that there are very clear defined rules in anarchy. It's just not the way we normally use that word. So, um, yeah. Well
said. Well said. I like
it. Basically, you, you, if there are rules in place and you want to play, then you gotta stick to the rules. If you don't stick to the rules, get out of the shop and, and, and do something else. That's what I was trying to do with the World Paragliding Series. It was, it was an attempt to, uh, show the, the finger at the rules in place because I didn't like the rules and, and I wanted to go and do something completely. Now, now if Ozone had done the same thing and said, okay, we'll make the Ozone World Series and we'll do it by our own rules, then I would have applauded them all the way. But they were, they were playing inside the playing field,
but cheating. And I, I, I couldn't take that. I, I have to admit that to you. I, I couldn't take that. It was too much for me.
That was a mess. That was a, that was a mess. I was, I was down in Mexico for the Superfinal last year. That was a mess. Um, cool. Let you know. So I hope, I
hope Bill, I, I hope Bill understands and appreciates that answer for me. Bill is the hero. He's the guru. So, so I, he's the
guru for all of us, isn't he? Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I, I think you'll really appreciate that for sure. Um, you know, I, I don't want to jump off it if you want to stay there and let me know if you do, but I, I'd love to, um, you gave a talk that was fascinating, really inspiring. And I think really timely, incredibly timely considering the accidents we'd had, uh, this week in, in the Sierras. Um, but you, you talked a lot about, I think some of the principles that are in your book, uh, for those of you listeners who haven't read it, I, I, I guess it's hard to find now. It's out of print, but, um, the flying rags to glory is, is, is, is terrific. It's a Bible. If you want to fly competitions, it's a really good, uh, resource, um, that Mads wrote a few years back.
Um, but you, you talked a lot more, um, about kind of mental preparation. And, um, I think the title of the talk was, you know, how to win. And I, I'd love to dive into some of that. I, I read online, uh, you wrote a really, really good article about priming. Um, maybe we can start there.
Yeah, I, I think, uh, I'm quite happy to move on to that because the other part is actually a little bit painful for me. I know it
is. I know it is. Yeah.
So, so let's move on to that. And, and, um, what I, what I would like to say to you here is that when I first started to, um, to read up on, on these things, like most other people, I had a lot of focus on, on the positive side of priming, the positive side of the priming process where, where you try to visualize success and you visualize, um, good things happening. To you, basically in, in the expectation that that will make it easier for you to leave those positive results that you, that you're longing for. And, um, over the past couple of years, I think that I may have gone off that idea a little bit because I, I, I have a feeling that that may not be quite as efficient as, as I thought it was when I first started reading about it.
But what I'm still very much in, into is to avoid the negative priming that a lot of people are very, um, have a strong tendency towards. And, and negative priming is all of that where you, where you have a tendency towards saying, oh, it probably won't work and, uh, I'll probably just land and, uh, they always out thermal me anyway and that sort of thing. And I think one of the most important favors that we can do for ourselves in, in this line of work, is to stop doing that basically and concentrate on not making any negative reinforcements of anything that we have on our minds. And, uh, essentially if we can't move on to become positive primers, at least we must work on not being negative primers.
And I think that'll make a great difference for a lot of people, myself included. So that's, that's my main take home lesson after the talk in, in, in Bishop a couple of weeks ago is that I think I just have more focus on that side of things nowadays because, you know, uh, positive priming has a tendency to backfire a little bit because if you've been positively priming yourself for half a year and you, and you go to that competition and it turns out you weren't winning anyway, then it'll be much harder to do the next time and the next time again. And, uh, that, that's where, uh, non-negative priming is much easier and much more productive to be doing.
Have you found, um, you know, in your experience with when, when, when you, when you do well, um, you know, at, at the end of a comp, um, I, I think you, it seems to me like you really like to process and think about these things. Um, have you found that, you know, after a good comp, have there been, have there been things you can, you can trace back that you can pinpoint out of other good comps? You know, have there been a lot of similarities? Um, is there, in other words, is there a flow that you've found? Um, that's a big tease word that I'm hearing all the time these days is people getting into flow. Um, you know, but is there, uh, cause I, I know for me, um, I have to be really relaxed.
I have to be really calm. You know, when I, when I do big flights or, uh, you know, even in the X-Alps, you know, when I'm kind of like, oh, I gotta do it. I gotta get it. I, I bomb out, you know, when I, when I, when I, when I could kind of give a shit, uh, you know, when I'm focused and I'm bringing it and I'm, I'm on my game, but when I can, when I'm also very casual about it, when I'm having more fun, um, I, I always seem to do a lot better. You know, I, I, I, like I, I went to this comp, uh, uh, this U.S. Nationals out in the Sierras and, you know, I had no intention of, I just wanted to fly with my friends. You know, I was coming off the X-Alps. I was really, I, I recognized that I was still pretty tired. I didn't really think I was probably flying very well. And so I was just kind of like, yeah, I'm just going to have a good time. And I ended up winning. Yeah. You know, so I, and I noticed that again and again.
If you, if you found similarities like that, if you found things that have worked that you can, then you can try to emulate.
Absolutely. I think you're absolutely right there. The, the, the more important it gets, the less likely you are to, to, to do well, basically. So, um, uh,
I, I'd actually like to, to make a, a, a little note about mental state and flying abilities. You know, you know, uh, we did cancel the first day of the competition in Bishop because of, uh, well, after the, the task had been scored and everything. And, um, one pilot who was really, really upset about that was Eric. Yeah. Badger. Yeah. And, and the, the, the next day he goes and has a, a, a, a big crash and, and goes to hospital and is going to stay in hospital for a long time. And, uh, obviously it's not something that anyone can ever prove and nobody should prove it because, you know, it's not anyone's fault.
It, it is just a very unfortunate chain of events, basically. And, and, uh, so, so Badger was all wound up about the task having been canceled. And, and, uh, my personal feeling is that that wasn't very good for his flying ability. Sure.
Absolutely not. No, absolutely not.
And, and, and, you know, uh, it
was exacerbated by, you know, he was in pole position to win the national championship. You know, he had won, right. So it was the combination of this one and wood rat. He'd won wood rat. So, I mean, he had everything to gain.
Yeah. And, and they, they, he had everything to gain and, and way too much to lose. Absolutely. And that wasn't good for him. And, uh, and, and then we have this unfortunate canceled task and it makes him all stressed. Now he really has to go and perform. And, uh, yeah. And, and then something happens. And as I said that there is, there's no way to prove any sort of causality in, in that, but you still, there's still a hint in there that if you're too stressed about things, then you're not going to be flying well. And that was one of my main points at my, at my talk as well was that, you know, you, you want to be sorted in your head before you launch a paraglider because it's a very unforgiving thing.
To be, to be doing with your life. If you, if you get it wrong, you could, uh, you could be in a life altering situation very, very, very quickly. And, uh, you, you just want to be relaxed and, and ready to enjoy yourself. And if you're not, then maybe you shouldn't take off.
Have you ever had an accident, Matt?
I've had a few. Um, you know, I have the, the compressed vertebrae that like most people in our line of work have. And, uh, they've, uh, my hospitalizations have both happened on the coast in Denmark, which means that, um, I have been slack and I have been too complacent. And, uh, I have flown, you know, the first time I was pushing too much speed bar and, uh, and the wing just, uh, came in close to the ground. And the second time I was flying in, in, in a crosswind on, on an uneven slope. And I got, I got into the lee of, of, of some little whatever. And, and I crashed.
And both times I've been too relaxed and too, um, uh, casual about the whole thing. Complacent. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, I, I've never had an accident where I was fully concentrated. And, uh, I take that as an indicator that if I'm just really on the top of my game, then I, I'm probably going to be okay. And I try to be that. And, you know, I, I don't particularly like to be on a task committee, for example, because it, it, it causes stress right before the launch. And I don't need extra stress before the launch. So there, there's a few things that, that I, I've, I've learned that I, I should try to avoid.
And, um, being on a task committee is one of them actually. So, and you and Nate
have, have really similar, um, Nate talks about this a lot, you know, that we know we are participating in a really dangerous sport. So let's stop fucking talking about it, you know, and, and, uh, and you, you, you were real critical. Uh, and I thought very timely, I really appreciated that about, um, you know, we had a major accident day one and a major accident day two, very similar. Um, and, uh, it was hard for everybody. And, and, and, and, uh, you know, and it's, it's not something you can just ignore, but, um, I, I really enjoyed how you said, you know, we can't, we should not be talking about this stuff before we go fly paragliders. You know, we need to know if they're good or they're not good. And that's about it.
Um, yeah, expand on that. And then tell me, this is two, two totally separate questions, but they kind of relate. Um, you like to get off the hill early and I like to get off the hill early. I learned that from guys that are smarter than me. Um, but, uh, tell me about those two things. The
first, the first thing is that you gotta be in a good mood to fly well. And if you've just learned that your bestest may is, is lying somewhere and, and on life support, then that doesn't put you in a good mood. That puts you in a terrible mood. And it puts me in a terrible mood, even if it, you know, I'm, I'm not close with any of the guys who had accidents up there, but, uh, I know both of them. And, and the fact that they are in, in a, in a bad state really, really, really, really puts me down. And, uh, you know, uh, the, the, uh, I don't mind knowing. Well, I do mind knowing it, but there's nothing, no way around knowing that they are in a bad state, but I don't need the gory details.
The gory details just make it, uh, much worse. And, and that was what I was trying to, to say to the, to the meat direction up there. Just spare us the gory details. Say, yeah, they're going to be fine or no, they're not going to be fine. Now let's move on. And it's not sticking the head in the bush because I've been doing this for almost 30 years. I know how dangerous it is. So I'm not sticking my head in the bush. I'm just saying I don't need the gory details right before I launch. And the second question I like to get off early, uh, it's, it's all about not having to experience all the stress on launch. Basically, there's, there's quite frequently, uh, at most competitions you go to, there will be a group of pilots who are very, very nervous on launch and, and nervousness is contagious.
There's no doubt about it. The more nervousness you're exposed to, the more nervous you get. And if you can get off the hill right away, then you are in your own environment and you're not in somebody else's. Environment. And that's the whole secret.
Excellent. Great. What are, what are some other, um, you know, you talk about being calm, you talk about being confident, you talk about being in a good head space. Um, if you've been able to identify, let me, let me give you my own example. I, I, the only time I really have ever consciously experienced the opposite of that was, um, when I got back from the X-Alps, I was literally back like two days and, uh, you know, my, my trainer had said, you know, you, you're not to do anything for a month. And my, my race was, was exceedingly physical, especially at the end. Um, and, but Nate had this incredibly great comp here. Very casual, very fun. I think we had, you know, I think Nick Greece flew 38 hours in five days or something. It was crazy. And we just had this string of amazing weather,
um, during this kind of casual comp that we just don't get here. Um, and so I just couldn't not fly. Um, but you know, I was, I recognize every day, uh, I had a major blowout, uh, each of those five days, which, you know, is right away telling me, you know, I was on my, I speak seven, which I'd flown in the race. Um, I was heavy cause I was flying my regular gear instead of my X-Alps gear. So things were happening faster cause I was heavy. Um, but I also recognized it every day. Just like, man, I am, I'm a half a second behind everything. You know, I just shouldn't, and that's a long time. And I just, you know, that's why I was having these blowouts. You know, the wings talking to me like it always is. And I just, I just wasn't on, but I just couldn't say no either because the weather was so good.
The flying was so good. Um, you know, but after that I was, I got really quite down on myself because I thought, you know, it's just, you, you, you really have to choose the day. You really, you know, and, and I think any of those days could have gone, like I had major blowouts. They weren't good. They were all SIVs. They all came out fine. And, you know, you know,
I was pushing it a little too hard, even though the conditions were not hard. They were fantastic flying. It was just, I was off. and so I, I'd love to hear your thoughts on, you know, you know, going to a comp and not feeling it. If you, if you walked away, if you not, not, not flown, um, I have, I have landed
for safety reasons. I've never walked away. And, and, you know, I, I think it's a very individual thing because I don't actually need, apparently, I don't need to be physically in a good shape to be able to fly well. Uh, if we can just go back to that Salt Lake City competition in 2009 or whenever, uh, I flew in on the night before the competition and I spent the first four or five days in a tent in, in, uh, Bradley's Garden up in, uh, uh, up at Point of the Mountain. And the tent was, uh, composed of, of non-matching parts so that the, the tent poles didn't actually fit in the tent. So when that night wind set in, I had the tent flapping around my face all night.
Um, and, and, so I didn't sleep much for that week at all. And I was jet lagged out of my face, you know, I was, uh, and, and I was still feeling, as soon as I was in the air, I was feeling great. And I was feeling super confident and I, I didn't have any blowouts or anything in that comp. So I think it's a very individual thing. But, uh, I think, as you said now, the way you described that little meet up at Nate's place, it does sound like you should probably not have flown that. No, I definitely shouldn't have. But, but that's, you know, that's an individual thing. I think that I could possibly quite happily have flown that. I've never been in the ex-Alps, so I haven't got any idea of quite how, how exhausting that is.
And, and, and so, so with the exception of, of that, I think that I would have been perfectly okay in a similar situation, but many people wouldn't. and, and, and they should listen to that and they should respect that. Yeah. Yeah. What was, what was
interesting is, you know, in the, in the ex-Alps, you get obviously really very tired, but I, I never felt that way the whole race. I never felt like I was flying in conditions that were beyond my ability or I, I just, I always felt like, you know, I kind of had it, you know, I was, I was on, on my game. It was, it was after, I think it was just my brain was, you know, I, every day I would wake up and I thought, God, I hope it's raining today because, you know, that's a good, that's a good sign that you shouldn't be probably in the air, but I mean, the weather was so perfect. I just, I couldn't say no.
No, and, and, and it worked out fine and, and, and nothing happened and you had a great experience and that's great. So, so, but, but obviously if, if you're not feeling on top of the game, then it is a very unforgiving game to be playing.
Sure. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Just briefly, we, we, we've been going for an hour, so I don't want to take up too much more of your time, but you, you touched on a couple other subjects in your talk that, you know, I, I just love to expand on a little more. You, you, you, you talked about priming, but you also just talked about, you know, just having that kind of mental framework, you know, do you, you know, if, is this been something that you've really picked up on as, as you've gone along or is this kind of who you are? And, you know, I, I think you've, you've obviously been in so many competitions over the years. You know, what have you seen? What are the kind of golden grails? What, what have you seen that is consistently works? Like we, our, our model here is Josh, you know, we call him the Josh bot because he's, he's so mechanical and he's so reliable.
And, you know, he's got a swivel head, you know, so I know the, one of the things he's doing is just watching like a hawk, everybody else. But can you shed, just set some more lights on, on some, some of the things that your book that people probably maybe for those that haven't read it or, um, what are your kind of secrets? Give me three.
Well, the first secret is that if you're not enjoying yourself, then you're not going to make an impact. So, so you, you want to be doing it because you can't help yourself. And, uh, if you're doing it for that reason, then, then it's the right place for you and the right time. But if you're doing it for any other reason, then you should, you should stop doing it right now because, uh, on one hand, it's way too dangerous. And on the other hand, you won't make any results. So the guys who are positive, who are loving what they're doing and who are, uh, smiling all the way through are going to make the greatest impact on the scene. So that's rule number one. Great. You just have to really, really like what you're doing.
Uh, and, and that's not a natural thing for me. So that was one of the things that took me a long time to work out. I was in a situation in the beginning of my career where on, on, on the home front, things weren't working so flash and I was very, um, down because of it. And I, I don't think I was very good company to anyone in those years because I was really down. And I did go to the comps anyway, because that was what I did. It was who I was and, and, and all of that. But I wasn't making any results and I was not very good company for anyone else. And I wasn't good company for myself either. So it was, it was a rough time for a few years in the nineties there. And eventually through, uh, snide comments from my surroundings, I worked out that I was doing something wrong.
And, uh, I, I crawled out of that little hole and, and I've been trying to be a lot more positive since then. You know, you did
on your own.
Yeah. Okay. There weren't anyone else around to, to sort of do it with me. But, but, um, one thing that did help me at the time, the Germans had a coach called Stefan must. And, um, he, he's quite a solid dude and, and, and very down to earth. And he was the guy who not, uh, in a direct conversation about the subject, but just with little comments made me realize that I wasn't actually being very good company to anyone. And, uh, you know, at the time that felt pretty rough, but now I'm really grateful for it because, uh, uh, you know, uh, I needed that kick in the balls at the time. Um, so, so that's rule number one. Rule number two is that you need to, um,
uh, you, you need to set up a, a scene with your mates where you mutually reinforcing each other because most of us can't afford this. I love this. Yeah. Yeah. So, so the Swiss and the French and the Germans, they can afford a coach. The Italians have a coach, but he doesn't cost them anything. He's just the friendliest person on the planet and he likes to hang with them. Um, so, so these four teams have what nobody else in paragliding has. It is a full time coach and it is such a valuable thing to have. So, uh, if you can actually pay for a coach, then you gotta make your own coaching situation among your mates, among your teammates and just coach each other and try to be positively reinforcing of each other's, uh, self confidence and, and not only about flying, but about anything in life basically.
So, uh, the better you feel, the better you're going to be flying and the better your friends are, the better you're going to be feeling. and it, you know, it's just a positive circle. The, the more positive everyone is, the happier everyone gets. And, uh, there, there's just no excuse for not doing that in paragliding or, or elsewhere in life, basically.
Ah, I love it. So
that was rule number two.
Well, you got three out, but if you give me another one, I'd love it.
Uh, rule number three is that you gotta, gotta be on, on, on the best wing because, um, it's, it's not particularly relevant at the moment because everybody's on the same wing, but a very, a very small advantage on the wing translates to a massive advantage in your head. Yeah. So, um, that's rule number three or four.
Yeah, four. I got four out of you. Great. I think I, I like the, um, I like how everything kind of comes back to your head, isn't it? I mean, that really is what we're doing. We're, we're playing in our head and you know, that's, that's what this sport's all about. Yeah.
No, but the funny thing is, you know, something like track running a hundred meters or something like that, it looks very physical and it looks all about, uh, legs and, and, uh, nutrition and all of that. But at the end of the day, it's all about the head. You
gotta believe you can win. You gotta believe you're going to do it. Yeah. Absolutely.
Yeah. And, and, and feel good about it and enjoy it. That's, that's the whole thing.
Great. Great. Mads, thank you very much. You know, before, before we sign off, is there, is there anything else you'd like to, to let our, our listeners know or, uh, any shout out to, um, sponsors or companies? Or, or, you know, and also where can people find you?
People can find me on Facebook. I'm very happy to be in a conversation with people on Facebook. I, I, I only accept friend requests from, from names. So, if somebody is registered as Motor Paraglider Toronto or something like that, then I don't accept that, uh, friend request because I don't know who it is. I, I want a name, but if there is a name and I can see that it's related to paragliding, then I'm happy to be your friend on Facebook, and I'm happy to have conversations of this sort with people on Facebook or, or, or elsewhere. So, um, that, that would be, that would be my suggestion for people who would like to get in touch. The other thing I want to say is that I'm actually working on, uh, making my book available on Amazon as a print on demand thing.
Hey, cool. That came out of the comp. Excellent. Yeah, that came out of the comp and, and, uh, in the next couple of weeks, it should be available, uh, as a print on demand thing on Amazon.com.
Fantastic. Great. Well, for those of you listening, I highly recommend that book. Uh, Matt Beechinor gave it to me a couple of years ago and I've never given it back. So, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's fantastic. And for those of you interested in, in comps, um, at any level, that's a, that's a terrific read. So, Mads, thank you very much for your time. And I really appreciate it. This is, uh, the most fun I've had at 1 45 in the morning. I can remember in a long time. So, I'm
so sorry. No,
don't be. That was, that was fantastic. Thank you very much. I know you're traveling soon and I'm traveling tomorrow, so I'm, I'm glad we were able to get it in and, and, uh, thanks very much.
You're most welcome. It's been fun to talk to you, Gavin. Appreciate it.
Well, I hope you enjoyed that. I certainly did. It's been such an honor to sit down with these incredible characters, uh, over the last few months. I'm going to keep doing it and hope you enjoy it. Uh, if you do love for you to reach out on, uh, iTunes or stitcher and give us a rating. Of course, that always helps, um, spread it to your friends and family. If you think they would enjoy it. And, uh, as always in the spirit of, uh, one of my favorite podcasts, you know, as you know, I'm a podcast junkie, but, uh, Dan Carlin's hardcore history. All we ask for is a buck a show. If you've gotten some from this, that helps me, uh, get this thing out on the air and it helps me with the time and helps me provide some beers to these guys. Um, got some great guests coming up. I am heading out to, uh, Fiji for the next couple of weeks to run the boat.
Uh, so there's going to be a little bit of a gap here, but, uh, I talked to Bill Belcourt yesterday and he's got a couple of guys lined up, uh, Mitch McAleer and Steve Rathian. When I get back, it's going to be fantastic. Those guys are legends. I've been around a long time, really looking forward to those talks. I am still trying to hunt down Will Gadd. He's over in the UK, uh, sending some really gnarly climbs with Red Bull right now. Um, but one of these days, I promise to you, I promise to get him on the show. And we've got a lot of other great ones coming up. So, uh, thank you. Appreciate it. I always appreciate your time and, uh, cheers from the cloud-based man.