4. Cedar Wright “Nothing Great Happens Without Risk” - Cedar Wright

Well, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you are in the world. Welcome to the fourth episode of the Cloud Based Mayhem podcast where we dissect excellence in human flight. I bring in the best pilots in the world, whether they be acro or hang gliders or paragliders, and talk about what makes them so great and try to figure out all the little pieces of that incredible air puzzle that makes them great. And we have broken away from that mold completely in this episode. I'm really excited to bring you this one. I just had a fantastic talk with Cedar Wright. If you don't know Cedar, he's a very, very famous big wall climber. He does projects with Alex Honnold. His latest movie, Sufferfest 2, went really, really well. It premiered last year at Banff. That's where I met Cedar. I was up there with the premiere of our film, 500 Miles from Nowhere.

And shortly after that, Cedar, actually at the Banff Film Festival, Cedar saw a paragliding film made by a couple of Australian women. And it just totally inspired him to get into the sport. So we talk about that. But yeah, this is, you know, Cedar's got five months under his belt now. And he is just crazy, crazy, crazy about paragliding. He's got the bug, something bad. And we thought it'd be really fun to talk to somebody who's going through that very initial stage learning process. I think he's got about 60 hours. It's a great talk. I think you'll really enjoy it. And we talk a lot about it. His background and risk. And, you know, he's very much a part of, if you've seen Valley Uprising, he's very much, and he was for a long time, very much a part of that Yosemite scene.

You know, his good mates and mentors and the guys he climbs with are people like Peter Croft and Dean Potter, the late Dean Potter. Sean Leary, the late Sean Leary, unfortunately, with those wingsuit accidents this last kind of year and a half. Does a lot of climbing with Alex Honnold, the best of the best. And but I think. You'll get, you know, what, no matter where you are as a pilot, whether you're a beginner or an expert, you'll get a lot out of this talk. It's a lot of fun. Cedar's a really funny guy. And he, this paragliding has become his kind of sky crack, as he calls it. It's just hysterical. I've been flying with him here in Sun Valley for the last week. And I finally sat down last night to do this podcast because I was like, dude, we have got to talk to you on the show.

You are just pumped up and psyched. And it really reminds me of where I was back, you know, eight or nine years ago, whenever I learned how. And it's yeah, it's exciting. You'll enjoy it. So without further ado, see you right.

Hi, Cedar. Hey, Gavin. It's good to see you, man. Good to see you. It's great to have you on the Cloud Based Mayhem podcast. I've been really psyched to talk to you for a while. We've had a pretty epic week and it's nice to just chill for a bit and talk about paragliding.

No, no, I'm obsessed with paragliding right now. You're calling it your sky crack. Exactly. I've been calling it sky crack because once you once you have the sky crack, once you're up there, you want to get back up there as quick as possible. I'm totally obsessed right now. I can

tell. I can tell. It's really nice. I'm definitely the

biggest. I'm the biggest noob that's ever been on the podcast, I would say.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Usually this, you know, we're kind of dedicated to dissecting excellence in human flight. And you're like just a newbie, you know, just just figured it all out, which is really cool. I'm excited to explore that with you. But let's rewind a little bit. And, you know, you and I met at BAM. Last year, I had just seen Sufferfest two and I was kind of like, holy shit, this is so cool. Like you've had a really interesting climbing history. And so tell me about what how that all started and where it went. And then maybe that'll lead into totally becoming interested in the sky crack.

Well, it actually that is it really BAM was when I saw you at the BAM, that was kind of the start of me being interested in paragliding. And but, yeah, I was showing Sufferfest two, I believe, up there. And and that was the follow up. Sufferfest one. And in those two films, which I directed and produced, basically, it follows myself and Alex Honnold, who's, you know, one of the biggest climbers in the world today, climbing and biking and climbing in these long pushes. The first one was that we did all the 14 years in California by bike. And then the the second one was we decided we were going to try to do as many desert towers as we could in the four corners of the United States. And so we biked about, like I'd say, eight or nine hundred miles. And and climbed forty five desert towers.

And and because the first film, which was just literally a pretty limited time. Yeah, we did it in three weeks. Yeah, it was heinous. You were

pumping and

in the wind was just nuking the whole time. And we we got we got pretty worked. We found a puppy. And it was like, I mean, you just have to see the movie, you know, for the paragliders out there who are like Sufferfest. It's worth checking. It's a

wicked film. You know, I grew up well, I didn't grow up climbing, but I did a lot of climbing back in college. And and I've kind of gotten skewed on climbing films. You know, over the years, I haven't been in the climate in a long time, but it was just, you know, you see a lot of the kind of the same thing and just stuff that's just so wicked hard. Like, of course, Honnold, you kind of climb that hard, but it's Sufferfest is hysterical, you know, it's just so fun, so accessible to non climbers. I think you did a really good job with that.

Thank you. Yeah, no, that's kind of was the hope was to, you know, you know, like entertain, you know, show people that, you know, that were kind of that were human, you know, that they were just goofballs out there having fun. And because a lot of climbers. Climbing films for sure are a little, you know, a little bit like, you know, man versus mountain and then I conquered the mountain and, you know, it's kind of deifying, you know, these different characters in the community, which is just fine and cool. But I just, you know, none of us are gods. We're all kind of weird, eccentric freaks in the climbing community. So

you were really a part of that whole valley uprising, you know, genre living in Camp Four and doing the dirt bag thing. And take me back to those days because you. Yeah. And where, you know, you because you came out of the valley, right? You were like Bakersfield, Fresno area and little town.

Yeah. So I was born and raised in Toll House. My parents were back to land hippies. I was conceived in a school bus and and I was exposed to the outdoors. I mean, we lived, you know, in one of the most rural parts of California. I backpacked a lot as a child. You know, my parents were, you know, very adventurous by net. And even though I was an hour and a half from Yosemite Valley, I was never exposed to climbing until actually I went off to. To a school at Humboldt State where I got my bachelor's in English. And when I was 21, I was out at the beach and I saw these people on the sea cliffs climbing. And I thought that looks like the coolest thing I've ever seen. And up to that point, honestly, had nothing really in life had captured my imagination or my passion. Were you an athlete?

I was I was I was an athletic person. I did like, you know, you know, I was like I was number one singles on my tennis team and a little known fact. And. In high school, like, you know, definitely like a big fish in a very small tennis pond, like I was not good. I was just slightly better than all the people who are terrible at tennis in our high school. But, you know, I mean, you know, I did like some cross country and, you know, I was an athletic person. You know, I'd love to go out and explore and hike and, you know, and I love to climb trees and just, you know, explore my environment. And then and then, you know, I went off to college and I saw these people climbing on these sea cliffs. And I just thought it was the coolest thing. It was the coolest thing ever. And I was lucky that my roommate had a friend who introduced me to climbing and I was instantly hooked.

It was it was it was a miracle. I made it through college. I was obsessed. And I went my first climbing trip, you know, about like six months later to Joshua Tree.

And it's interesting to see the parallels now that I'm getting into paragliding that I have this like when I get into something, I go full bore and I get totally obsessed. Same way. Just. Yeah, you're just getting cracked out. Yeah. Yeah. You're like sky cracked out. Yeah. And so it was the same with climbing. I just I was obsessed. I loved it. It was the first thing in life, I think, that it really like, you know, made me super passionate that where I was just like, this is what I want to do with my life. And so and I

was draw there. Like, I remember from my my climbing days in it, I got really into it in college and it was the same kind of thing. It was just like I just started training and I dieted and I lost a ton of weight. And I mean, and I was I've always been thin. I didn't need to lose weight, but I got

to be lighter. And

totally. And but what I what I loved about climbing was kind of what I love about paralyzing, too, is that you can't really be doing something else when you're climbing. It's it's it requires a lot of attention. And is that the draw? I always find that people that get into kind of what I don't want to call it extreme sports, but, you know, that that kind of attention where, you know, injury or death is a possibility. You know, you're you're in the moment. Totally. It's hard for me to find other things that get me in the moment. Where you're not distracted, especially these days. Back in those days, we didn't have Facebook and all this other junk. But, you know, it was it was just it was it required a lot of I have to be here now. Totally. You got to be

present. It's like in environment assisted meditation. You know, it's like it's and definitely that was I mean, for me, it was just I mean, for climbing, it was like the whole package. I mean, definitely it was like it was like just the unknown, the adventure. It was definitely it was like the physical challenge of it and the athleticism that it required. But I think really what I loved about climbing was just that there was always something new to do. There's always something new to explore. There was, you know, there's always a new climb to check out a new area to go to to go climb in. And I just love that. I love that there was always something new to try and to experience. And I think that's kind of what drew me into it, you know.

And were you were you pursuing it with the idea in mind that you would? You wanted to be the best? Were you pursuing it and that you want or was it more the community or was it what was the goal back then?

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. That's a good question. I mean, a little bit of all those things. It was like a mix. You know, I definitely wanted I mean, for sure. I had these idols, you know, some of these people like, you know, Peter Croft at the time was this person who was doing all these amazing ropeless ascents in our communities, a real legend in the climbing community. And so he was climbing these climbs without a rope that were just mind blowing. And and, you know, as part of me wanted to be like that. Rad. And and, you know, and then there was, you know, I was I met Dean Potter very early on in my, you know, I showed up in the valley and met Dean, you know, within the first year I was there. And he became one of my good friends and climbing partners. And and he was just starting to kind of become like a rock god, you know, climbing god. And I was like, I want to be a badass like that for sure. I mean, that was part of it.

Yeah, I was lucky I had Dean. And then I also had my my buddy, ironically, my buddy, Sean Leary, who also, you know, the two of them both in the last year and a half died in wingsuiting accidents. And those are my two main climbing mentors. I met Sean in Humboldt when I was going to school. He was so

talented. He was incredible. He's

one of the best wingsuit pilots in the in the country and an incredible climber, you know, had the speed record on the nose and was, you know, and he was the one who told me, oh, there's this place called Yosemite where people just live in caves and climb all the time. You know, he's all you can just go get cans, go get money for like, you know, like cans and dive in the dumpsters. And this whole dirt bag climbing culture thing, you know, was was a big part of it. And that was a big part of it, too. So there is the whole I want to be rad and I want to push myself as hard as I can in the sport. And then there was just this amazing community at the time in Yosemite that I became a part of. And and so that was a really cool part of it. And that's actually one of the things I really enjoying now that I'm getting into paragliding is the community of it. Like, like even more than climbing, man, like like I can like a paraglider, I can latch on and we can just like talk and talk and talk about.

You know, oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's just like it's a small community and we're obsessed, I think, pretty much all of us, you know, are flying or obsessed. And so it's I love that. I love that that community and that that, you know, the mutual passion that you have. And so that's been something that I continue to love about climbing. And and I've been lucky now to be in this position where I've kind of I made it. I became a sponsored climber somehow, some way. Was that a plan?

Like, did you kind of did you see that that was happening like with with Dean? And what was that kind of like, oh, man, I can make a living out of this.

Dean was my inspiration, I think, more than anyone else. I saw Dean, you know, I watched Dean blow up, you know, and become a rock star. And I was all, man, I want that. I'm all that looks awesome because I didn't want to work. I wanted to climb all the time, you know, and I wasn't working. I was like living in a cave. And then I was working for Yosemite Search and Rescue, hardly working at all, you know, and climbing as much as I could. Just enough, you know, I was climbing, you know, like. At least a couple hundred days, you know, a year. And and so, you know, I was very, very obsessed. And and but I also I wanted to somehow facilitate that. And I thought sponsorship seemed like a really cool way. And I got, you know, really lucky. But I was also very, you know, focused on wanting to, you know, make that happen. And I was lucky to be I was a writer. I was a creative person.

You know, I was a bit of a storyteller. And so even though I never really became like the Peter Croft or the the raddest climber out there, I became like a. You know, someone who could who could inspire people through his storytelling and through his, you know, and eventually through my filmmaking, which became another outlet, you know, and a way to kind of tell my stories and, you know, give value to your sponsors. They all they want you to be out there and be visible and stuff. And so, you know, I think you enjoy that game. You enjoy the sponsored game. And sure. Yeah. Yeah. I don't mind. I like it. It's awesome. You know, it's a mutualistic relationship. You know what I mean? I love I love I'm a, you know, an extroverted person. I love people. I love to tell my stories. And, you know, and I like, you know, I think I've actually legitimately gotten people psyched, entertained them, even inspired them, you know, and I've had people name their friggin kids after me.

It's crazy, dude. I'm like more than one is kind of actually a little disturbing. Like that poor kid. I'm always I'm always going to he's going to move into his truck. He's going to be a total derp. I guess to rewind, you know, like to since this is a paragliding pod. Podcast, I guess. And then I watched a bunch of films, but I watched this. This film is called Resounding Silence. And it was made by these two Australian women. Their names were Natasha and Gemma. And they were these really cool ladies. And basically this movie was about them going up to Greenland, I think. And they went deep out into these snowy peaks. And they were like doing these cool like kind of ski mountaineering and like, you know, Alpine style. First ascents.

And then they were flying in these lightweight. I think they were like maybe ultralight three like ozone wings or something. They were doing these paraglide descents. And the thing about it that struck me was not like, oh, my God, this is so extreme. But I was like, that looks pretty fun and mellow and kind of accessible. It was like the opposite of like maybe like a film that you're in or something where I'm like, oh, my God, he's so deep. I would never go there. I'm like, God, I hope he gets a thermal. Um, versus like this was like, you know, they were like, it was mostly just sledders, you know what I mean? And I think they got a couple of thermals like out on the glacier and stuff. And, uh, but it was just like, it looks so peaceful and accessible. And in the back of my mind, I was like, I was like, man, it would be amazing to combine these sports the way they are, you know, and maybe, but maybe even like take it to the rock climbing, you know, level, like, you know, climb a big wall with a paraglider in there, you know, hook off your stuff with a drug shoot and then paraglide off or whatever, you know.

And what's so interesting

about that? That's really how the sport was born.

Yeah. It

came from hang gliding. But then, I mean, really the first approach, you know, when we, when we spoke to Bill Belcourt about this, the whole start of it, cause he was there in the very beginning was, you know, it was seen as a descent tool. Totally. It was seen as a way to get down off mountains. And then very quickly they realized that, wait a minute, this thing's got some potential. They're

like, whoa, wait, what's this air pushing me upwards? They're like, whoa, maybe I should turn in that and go up more. You know, that must've been a wild moment. A wild moment. I'm sure. Yeah. I almost wish I would've been there

back then. I missed all of that, of course. But so you're, the impetus was this film. Was that also, did that combine with some place you are, you were in in your life? Is climbing become, was climbing not enough or was it just, well, holy, I just have to

explore this. It was kind of, you know, I guess, you know, climbing is definitely enough. You know, I don't need, I love climbing. It's amazing. But I've always been this person. I mean, you know, the classic example is Sufferfest, right? I'm like, oh, we should do a bike tour, you know. Yeah. Yeah. I had no idea about bike. I had no idea about bikes and got totally worked. And, but I do, I love trying new things. You know, I love being a beginner again. I love that feeling of having, you know, no idea what you're doing a little bit and having to figure it out, you know? And so that's in my personality. But there's a, there's a shred of truth to that for sure. I mean, it's like, I've been climbing for, you know, over 20 years now. You know what I mean? It's like, it's kind of like, you know, I was kind of joking and saying, you know, like paragliding is kind of like that, like that, that super hot girlfriend, you know what I mean? You're so psyched about her, you know? And she's so, you know. She's so hot and amazing.

And you're just like, oh, I just want to spend so much time with her. And you know what I mean? And, and, and like climbing has become more like, you know, like where that eventually that hot girlfriend, if she's actually an awesome person, eventually you like fall in love with her and get married and you have this like long-term relationship. And it's, you know, obviously it's not going to be like, oh my God, we just have to bang 24 seven. You know what I mean? It's going to become like, it's going to become like, oh, a couple of times a week is enough. And like, you know, but, but the love is deeper, right? It becomes more special. It becomes, yeah. More.

More of

a deep, deep love. You know what I mean? And that's what I feel for climbing. I have this like love for climbing that's, um, that runs so deep. And, um, and right now I have this super, you know, like hot, like kind of side chick named paragliding and, uh, and she's, she's amazing, you know? I mean, it's, it's incredible. So that's, yeah, that's, that's what I want. We've been talking a lot

about this week. You know, we, we ran into each other at the OR show last week down in Utah and you came up and of course I had just finished the X-Alps and you saw my hat, I think, and put it

back on.

And, uh, we've been talking a lot about paragliding since then. And it's been, it's, it's actually, it's been really cool cause it's really fired me up cause I remember what it was like when I, back in 2006 when I was learning, I was the same way. I was just like, holy shit, I need to do this as much as possible. Cracked out. Totally. And

so what's been your, your five months in, right? I'm five months. Well, so it's funny, right? Cause I saw you at the, at the trade show. And so I remember I went from being like all, oh yeah, nice to meet you, Gavin, whoever you are, to being now five months in. And I was like following the X. And I was like, oh my God, you're the man. You know, I was like all like, I was like, I mean, you know, and then I realized, you know, I've been sponsored by Black Diamond for years. I realized I'm all, holy crap, Bill Belcourt isn't just some guy who works at Black Diamond. I'm all, he's like frigging the Yoda of paragliding. You know, he's like a legend. He's like, to use that Peter Croft analogy, to circle back to that, he's like the Peter Croft, you know, in a way of the sport. He's mentored

every pilot in the US. You know, he is, I mean, whether you, you've met, met him or not, he is the dude. He's the mentor. And

so on my way here, you know, to Sun Valley, I, I actually reached out to him and I, I got to spend a day with Bill and we went up and, and went up to this launch at Jupiter and it wasn't really good. And then we eventually went over to Inspiration and we, we launched together and stuff. And, but it was just, I mean, he is just a hard, hardcore dude. He's an outlying guy. Yeah.

He's an outlying guy. I'm like, yeah,

I was all, man, you're like, you've been hardened by paragliding, dude. Like. Yeah. He's like a burly, burly dude, but also he's like a kind of a genius. So it was cool to hang out with him and soak up that knowledge. And, and I'm in a unique position, right. Where I'm like, because I'm connected in the community in this way, um, you know, where I had access to him and to you. And I'm like totally taking advantage of that because I want to get good at this sport, you know? And it's like, it's been five months and I've already done some decent flights. I mean, yesterday, yesterday you took me out. So yesterday, you know, Gavin and I, we, we go out and, uh, it's like late in the day. It's been kind of iffy all day and not really a good day to fly. And, uh, we get up around Ford and it's kind of nuking. We hike up to this place called Sun Peak and I'm like, and he's like, Oh, I don't know.

We'll just sit and wait. And we waited for about an hour. And, uh, and then Gavin launches. I'm like, all right, it's on. I launch. And, uh, you know, and I'm, I'm thermaling up and immediately I'm like, God, you were like at 15, you were at 15,000 in like 15 grand in like five minutes. Yeah. Pretty quick. It was like. It was like, I'm all like, what are you doing? I'm not. And I'm over like, I'm like thermaling the edge of the thermal and like frisbeeing up the ridge, like, like just getting set really deep and just not getting in the air mass that you were apparently, I think is what was happening. And, uh, but I was making it work, you know, I'm like getting up, I'm getting higher, but it's taking forever. And, uh, and I'm getting, I got pretty high, but still, you know, I'm at like 12,000 feet or something. And I got whacked. I got the hand of God.

The, like I'd say, I, most of my wing like tucked under it, like shot forward. I was like pretty much equal with my wing, like horizontal out there. I went, I threw my hands up and I swung underneath. And I was just like, I remembered what my instructor, Matt Henzey, who's just an incredible pilot told me, which was, you know, if you don't know what to do, just stick your hands up and the, you know, you're on a B glider, it should sort itself out. And eventually that's what it did. But I like the, if you look at my track log, there's like a section and you're like, he's like, Oh, he's killing it. He's throwing up. Oh God. And then it's like, as you can see my track log, it's like, I want to go back. It's like run away. It's like run away. Right. And then I like, and then I eventually, I got sunk my teeth into it and I'm like, he's up there. And actually Henzey was watching my spot activity and he's all, you're doing good.

You got it. And texted me and I got this text. He's all keep going. And I said, okay, I should just like, you know, just shake it off. You know what I mean? It's like, sometimes that happens. You take a collapse in the sport. And so I, I like got back in there and, and I started, you know,

I was like, I'm like, you know,

circling up in this thermal kind of being like, well, maybe I'll just circle up and go bail, go land. And then I was like, Oh, I should go. I should fly a little longer. And then, and then I finally got into the air mash. You got in and I got up to like 15,000 or 15,242 feet. It was the highest I'd ever been. Yeah. So this is yesterday. Cool. Oh dude. My mind was welcome. This is the valley. Yeah. Sun Valley. Your eyes were wide when I saw you,

when we landed,

it was like, it was sky crack took on a whole new meaning. It was like sky acid. I was just like, got down and I was just. I

was just

like, my mind is blown. I was like, just all like filled with adrenaline and, uh, and you know, like, yeah, that was amazing. And we, I didn't really go anywhere, but we were looking down on the, you know,

that was a proper little intro to XC, you know, flying out to autos and getting deep in the piles a little bit, you know, at least looking at them and, you know, we've got some cool stuff on the radar. I think if we get some good weather, but what you were saying a really cool thing the other night, um, like the difference, uh, the, the difference between, you know, the in, in, in risk or perceived risk between, uh, paragliding and, and, and climbing like the, and consequences and stuff. I don't know if you remember that conversation, but it was like, I'd love to hear your thoughts on just because you're, you're at that stage that it's like, so we, we talk about three kind of stages you go through as a paraglider, as a pilot, you know, you have the beginner stage where you really don't know what the hell's going on and that's dangerous because you don't know what the hell's going on, but you're also kind of like nervous and scared and you understand.

You understand that there's some danger and so, you know, pretty tentative flying. And then, then there's like the intermediate, we call it intermediate syndrome where, you know, you've had a few hundred hours at that point and maybe a few hundred flights and, and, uh, and you can spend a lot of time in intermediate syndrome and where it's kind of like, you know, you've, you've dealt with some things, maybe you've done some SIV and, uh, but you think you're better than you are. Totally. And that's, that's really dangerous. And then we have the hero system, like the expert syndrome where, you know, like that, that, that whole hero thing that happens in any sport. Where, you know, I have got this, you know, I've dealt with a lot of shit and, and, or I'm sponsoring exactly. And, and, uh, and then that's dangerous because you have this invincibility, invincible, invincible thing going on. That's, that's can also be dangerous.

So you're in that kind of beginner stage where, you know, like everything's just wild, but new it's and everything's new. And how, how do you compare that to kind of the same genre and climbing?

Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's interesting, you know, because I guess I came up in a world of climbing, um, you know, which was a little more risk tolerant, I guess I would call it, you know, I like learned from Sean Leary. It was like, my first lead climb was a free solo, like literally it was a ropeless climb. Wow. And so he just took me out and we did this like thing that turns out it's like five, eight or something. And I was up there like kind of shaking over holes and he's plenty of holes for me to grab and stuff. And like, that was my introduction to climbing. So I have like a pretty high tolerance for, you know, for risk. And then eventually, you know, I, like I got my expertise up to where, you know, that five, that same five, eight. It would actually be this super safe, like mellow thing. So it'd be kind of the same, you know, to use that analogy, you know, like the two of us up in the air yesterday, you know what I mean? You're like, Oh, this is delightful. And you're boating around and you like covered like all this ground. You're like, Oh, I'm all, Oh, Gavin's over at that valley.

Oh, Gavin's over at that like ridge. And I'm just like frisbeeing up the ridge for like 40 minutes, just trying to get in the air mass or whatever, you know? And it's like, and so you were kind of in the super safe, like kind of bomber situation. And I was more kind of like, you know, more gripped taking, yeah, I'm taking collapses and maybe probably maybe more dangerous too. And, uh, you know, it's, uh, I don't know, it's interesting, but, um, yeah, what I think is valuable as a climber is, is that I have a lot of, um, experience with risk assessment. You know, I've managed to, uh, be relatively, you know, knock on wood, uh, injury free and, uh, and, and safe in this sport for a long time. And, uh, you know, I, I definitely don't have any death wish and, uh, you know, which is one of the reasons I, I decided against, um, getting into the sport.

I decided against getting into base jumping when all of my friends were doing it, you know, Dean and Stanley, two of my best friends were both telling me how amazing it was. And I just, it just seemed too dangerous, you know what I mean? And so, and so I did a risk assessment with this sport when I decided I was going to do it. And I was a little bit nervous about it because it was definitely, I was like, wow, this is probably more dangerous than climbing. Um, you know, even though whatever the numbers are all nebulous and who knows for sure. But, um, but, uh, you know, I decided that I wanted to try, I decided it's worth it. Okay. And then I'm now. When I fly, I definitely try to, you know, make smart decisions like today, today we went out and you're like, well, those are, he's all on a Northwest day. It can be really rough here in sun Valley. And he's all, you know, she's never have a good day on a Northwest day. And he's all, Oh, those clouds look really bad. And he's all, but maybe we could hike up and maybe we could see.

And I was like, you know what? Um, let's go do a podcast. Let's go do a podcast. Drink beer and do a podcast. I can decompress from taking that collapse, you know, yesterday and stuff. And, uh, but, um, but yeah, I mean, you know, there's, it's just, uh, there's a lot to it, you know, it's, it's, I mean, and you've been out there and like, and I've heard some stories from you and from some other folks. And I think every parrot paraglider has their cautionary tale, you know, and I've been really soaking those up because I want to take those seriously and learn from those, you know, about the time that that, you know, that this guy flew into the tree and the time that this guy broke his back and the time that that other guy broke his back. That's one of the bummers of the sport. You're like, how many frigging people break their backs in the sport? But, um, you know, I, I take that all in. And I try to, uh, you know, to, to internalize that, learn from it.

And then hopefully, hopefully, you know, enjoy the sport because it's incredible. And that's like, that's life in general is, is that, is that nothing great happens without risk, right? Nothing, uh, you know, and it's like, uh, you can live a completely boring, miserable life taking no risk. Right. But most of the people who really, um, have, you know, who, who have that who are squeezing the juice out of life, there's some sort of element of risk, you know, whether it's they're risking their life or they're risking, you know, their livelihood. Um, you know, it's, uh, it's, you got to put yourself out there to, and paragliding is like that, I guess, but it's incredible, man. Flying through the air, like when you hook into a thermal, oh my God, it's been five months, you know, and I've been like flying as much as I can. But when I like get into a thermal, it's like one, it's one of the most amazing things I've ever experienced.

For sure. So

let's go. That's what I want to talk about. Is it? You're, you know, you're stoked because you're incredibly infectious and it's really common at this stage in a flying career. I just love to see it. And I totally remember it myself and I'm still kind of that way myself is it is just absurd what we're doing up there. Um, but you're taking me back to, okay, I got to learn this. Yeah.

So I was like, yeah,

I want to do this. And so how did you go about that?

So I was, uh, you know, so I was like having a conversation with a buddy of mine, Matt Siegel, who's also a, uh, a North face athlete about it. And I was like, man, you know, I'm all paragliding. I'm like so rad. It'd be so cool. You know? And at this time it was like more like in my mind, you know, it wasn't about cross country or any of this stuff. I was just like, Oh, it'd be cool to like climb stuff and fly off of it. You know what I mean? And, uh, and he was all, he's all, Oh, well, you know, and at this point, uh, Potter was actually wearing a paraglide, uh, down. Was he? I didn't know he was. Yeah. Dean Potter was learning to paraglide down. It's a shame he hadn't like kind of gone more that route. Yeah. And, uh, um, and he was, he was learning to paraglide down in Santa Barbara from, uh, from Eagle paragliding. And, uh, and then I had, um, a good, a good friend, um, Zach Smith, who is becoming an accomplished pilot and flying, uh, with, uh, this guy Pete up there, who's some sort of, I haven't met him, but he's a sky God up in Colorado, little Pete, little Pete.

Yeah. Apparently he's kind of a badass. He's like a Ninja up there. And, uh, Zach Smith was flying with him and Zach had kind of like is happy to me. He had like become totally cracked out on paragliding and to the point where he actually had quit climbing and was like, he's already, he's now a tandem pilot and he's like all in with paragliding. Paragliding and stuff. But so he was one of the first people in our community that was getting into it. And so we reached out to him as a resource being like, Hey, we're interested in this too. He recommended, uh, going to Santa Barbara in the winter is a great place to learn. And I would say that any new pilots out there, that's, um, that's probably an

Eagle. It's amazing.

I'd say it's a, yeah, I'd say it's one of the better places that you could go. Um, you know, uh, Santa Barbara is just an incredible place to learn because in the winter it has super consistent weather and it's, it's got this great E-Lings is this training Hill and it's just this little grass Hill is that you can drive up the top of it and you can launch land, launch land, launch land, launch land. Amazing

place. Oh yeah. And it's Santa Barbara. It's like, yeah, you're like,

you're like living the dream there and stuff, you know? And so, so anyways, we headed down and, uh, we set aside two weeks and, uh, at the time Rob wasn't around and, um, and he had, uh, hired, um, Matt Henzey as his, as the administrator. Instructor. And I feel like, you know, it just worked out perfect. Cause Matt Henzey was a climber. He's like, um, I mean really probably one of the top pilots in the country. He's like an incredible pilot is a great pilot. And, uh, and he's a great teacher, which is a unique combination, I think, to get somebody who's not just, you know, a good at teaching, but who's actually out there like pushing it. So, and so he, you know, kind of just like a little bit before he started teaching us had already flown this really cool, deep line, like there in Santa.

Barbara, you know, everybody was like, whoa, nobody goes that way. Like, you know, he flew into the Lee and over the mountains and stuff and, uh, and you know, really ballsy pilot and kind of the perfect guy to teach us, you know, um, because, uh, he got us as climbers and, you know, he understood that we were a little more go for it. And, and we were, and it was great. Cause we like bivy up there, Rob's little kind of like hood that he has up there. And, uh, and, and Matt was up there too. And so it was like every morning we'd get up, we'd have coffee. We talk paragliding and we'd go to E-Lings and we launched. We have launched land and, uh, and by day, I think it was day four or five, uh, we were up there, um, at the Skyport launch. And I was like, oh my God, we're about to like launch off a frigging 3000 foot of descent mountain. And, uh, and, and we went for it, I flew off the mountain and when I landed, I was like, this

is amazing. Oh my God. Oh my God. It

was just like, I hadn't felt that way about something since climbing. Right. I hadn't even been that into something since climbing, you know, other than my mom, my wife, you know, but, um, but yeah, so it was, it was, uh, I feel so grateful to, to Henzie for, you know, passing it on and he's become totally my sensei and that's why I came up here. Henzie's here, um, doing tandems right now. And uh, so I was like, oh, I'm going to go up to where my instructor is and, you know, and then it turns out he's in the biggest area, month five, month five, and I'm taking 70 percenters with my hands up and then thermaling up to 70,000. It's like an hour. Many,

many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many feet,

you know, 15,000 feet with Gavin McClurg. I'm all like, it's just your typical learning curve, fucking paragliding. It's

a little more accentuated

than most people have. Yeah. Yeah. No, totally. I'd say so. You know, I've done some like, you know, like, like 20 mile XC's now and stuff. I did my little goal of flying from Boulder to Lyons at my local site in Boulder. And, uh, you know, I've gotten to fly Dunlap and flew my local site in Toll House and I flew. You

flew Woodrat?

Yeah, I flew Woodrat. I went to the, I went to Woodrat and got to have that whole experience of like thermaling with some of the best people. Some

of the best

pilots in the country, like hundreds of pilots in the air and getting to know the air and seeing how they think. And so many times I'd be like, wait, why'd they move? And they're just like this sense, you know, that, oh, the thermal was drifting and they all like drifted over and I'm still like circling in the, in the, not the lift. Yeah.

Yeah. So at this, at this stage, you know, typically like five months in, like everything is kind of mind blowing and you're learning it just this incredible arc. Um, but is there, is there anything that's really standing out in terms of like, this is what I really need to focus on, or this is what's really important. Or this is, this is, where are you right now in your development?

Well, so for, for me, well, I'm like, so it's so funny, right? Cause initially I was like, I'm all like, I'm all, I just want to be able to fly mountains and land. You know, I didn't know. I don't even care about catching thermals. And then I caught my first thermal and I was like, it's so funny right now. I'm just like, I want to, I want to, you know, do a 50 K and a hundred K and a hundred mile flight. You know what I mean? I'm totally, you get, those are goals. I'm like, oh yeah, it's cool to fly off something, but it's the real magic is when you hook and do a thermal and then you go on, you go on glide and then you hook into another thermal and now you're like going places, you know, and then you're traveling and you're going, you're seeing the world from a completely unique perspective. You know, it's like, it's, uh, you're having an experience that very few people in the world get to have. And I think it's probably in one of the most amazing things you could experience in life is being like a bird using the rising air of the invisible.

Medium to go up and then to travel. It's incredible. It's like definitely the most incredible experience that I've ever had. And

that's pretty amazing. I mean, you've been all over the world and climbed all over the world and climbed with some of the maddest climbers in the world. I mean, Alex Honnold doesn't get much better than that. And to hear you say that is really, really cool. I mean, I think that's the outside world that hasn't flown. Doesn't really get that. I mean, I think that what we portray and films and that kind of thing is it's just very, very mellow cruising along these little pretty looking gliders that are almost kind of like balloons. And, and, uh, you know, when you get into it, it's intense, isn't it? It's like, there's a lot more intensity there and there's a lot more commitment. Yeah.

Exactly. It's balls, dude. I mean, that's like, it's, there's like a whole level of go for it, you know, like the whole concept of flying deep is such a cool concept. You know what I mean? And it's like, you know, like Henzie is like, what? What? When in doubt, go deep. That's what he told me, you know? And that's like, man, that's like talk about a, uh, a philosophy system and, uh, and, and talk about an adventure, man, just be like going into the unknown, you know? And I'm not quite there yet. I'm definitely like, I'm really stoked on XE and I'm really, um, you know, trying to do little XEs and stuff, but I'm definitely flying LZ to LZ, you know, but I get it. I get to where you get to this point where you have this expertise where, where you can fly deep into places where there's. No LZ knowing that you're going to get that climb and, or knowing that you can like soar the ridge until you get the climb and, uh, having that level of expertise and like, I, I really admire it.

It's really, I really look up to people like you and, and bill and Henzie as, as these people who are, I mean, you've become like this crazy, like, like magician of the air, you know, it's like this, you become, you basically become, you've generated this awareness of this invisible medium that not many people have. You know what I mean? And the sensitivity to it, you know, and then you can go out and have these incredible adventures because of it. So it's like, I'm in awe. I think it's amazing.

That's cool. I, a very good mutual friend of ours Will Gadd, you know, who you've climbed with and I've flown with. Of course, you know, he, he says frequently in his talks and stuff that it's the freest thing he's ever done. It's the freest thing he knows of to do. Yeah. Totally dig

that deal. So this is classic. So, you know, bill is just classic and, you know, I got to spend that day with him, uh, flying with bill. And, and he's always all the thing about paragliding is you can't wrap bolt the sky. And so for, for people out there who aren't climbers, rap bolting is, or, or, you know, or he's all, you can't retro bolt the sky, you know, it's all the thing about, you know, the thing about paragliding is you can't retro bolt the sky. And what he means by that is in climbing, retro bolting would be where you add bolts to an existing climb to make it safer and, and the beauty of it to him is the purity of it. Right. And, uh, it's that there's, you can't dumb it down. You can't make it safer. It's inherently dangerous. It's inherently risky. It's inherently adventurous.

It's an, all of those things are, you know, uh, are what make it so amazing and, and what make it such a special, uh, you know, experience. And then in, in just, it is such a singular experience because it's like, uh, has these parallels to surfing where you're like waiting for that set to come in. You're waiting for that magic wave, you know, and you're waiting for that magic day with that. You're

waiting for that amazing

weather, you know? And it's like, and weather's like, there's no, no day is ever exactly the same. Every day is, is weird, you know? And it's especially here in Sun Valley ever,

ever, ever going to have the same experience under a very lighter ever. Yeah. That's, what's really cool to me is that you're never gonna, it's never going to be the same. You're never going to land and go, wow, that was just like the flight I took yesterday. That's never going to happen. Yeah.

Maybe at the point of the mountain, like soaring the ridge back and forth, it was just like last time, but in cross country, I mean, you know what I mean? You're not. There's just so much to it. You know, the weather is so mysterious and volatile and just intricate. Is it

overwhelming to you right now at this stage is, are there, are there aspects of it that are just like, wow, man,

pretty much all of it. Well, so like, like I'm like, like I've never been good with north, east, west, south. So that's been a real struggle with the direction direction. I'm, I have no sense of direction. You don't know where you're going. That's great. That's perfect.

No sense

direction. Um, you know, it's just like, you know, I, I kind of learned quickly, not, you know, about the Lee and wood rat and stuff and then, but you know, then you learn that for every rule, which is never flying the lead that, you know, all the good that you go and you fly in the lead, you know, and it's like, it's like all the, all the rules are meant to be broken a little bit, you know, and it's like, it's just as long as you know, you're breaking the rule. There's a lot to it. I'm starting to take it in and I'm, I'm like super hungry for, for information. I'm a very obsessive person. Mm-hmm. And when I go into something, I go all in and so I've definitely been, you know, educating myself as much as I can and, and, but there's a lot, it's a lot of information. I mean, it's, it's one of the most intellectual sports in the world. I would think, I would say we're trying to come

up with this thing yesterday. It's like chess with an alligator. Yeah. It's like, it's like,

yeah, totally. Or, you know what I mean? It's like a mix of like, it's like you have to play chess while like frigging like, uh, you know, running with the ball. You know, it's like this weird mix of like super hype, hyper intellectual, um, reasoning skills and, you know, and problem solving and, you know, making these split second decisions, you know, that could, um, increase or end your flight and, but at the same time, there's this like intensity to it. There's this like level of risk and there's this, it's just intense, man. And the deeper you go, the more intense it gets and, and then being able to. Prolong that for hours, right. Being able to stay in that state of making the right decisions, you know, when there's this, just the weight of the severity of the situation that you're in, you're in the air and you don't necessarily belong here.

You don't have wings. Yeah. You know what I mean? Don't belong up

there. So we've all dreamt up since the beginning of time, but we don't belong there. We don't necessarily belong there. Yeah,

totally. Yeah. The, the, the bill Belcourt thing, you know, I like, we shout to him, I'll do it. We got to go fly. And he's all, he's all. It's pretty amazing. What you can do with some nylon and kite string home all yeah, that's like the understatement of all time. I mean, you know, it's what you just have to experience using machines. Totally. Everyone should experience it in their lifetime. Even if they just take a tandem that, you know, you should experience the, the, the unpowered human flight, you know, you really hopefully get a tandem where you get at least to soar or to, uh, to feel what it's like to go into a thermal and go up. It's like what it's like to be a bird. Yeah. Yeah. The circle, you literally just circle like a bird and go up. It's incredible. Yeah. And it's not just that simple, you know what I mean? It's just like, just the reason that you were able to be up at 15 and five minutes and it took me like 45 minutes to get up there and it was just a lack of sensitivity and a lack of experience.

And that's just hours. Totally. Hours. Just getting the hours. Well, and then like, yeah, natural ability to, and who knows, you know, what

do you think it is that, so, you know, I moved here because I, I, I had been told by Nick Greece is another Jedi in the air. We, we were. We've done this flying expedition down in Haiti in 2012 and that's when I was really experiencing my, what you're going through now, just like, holy shit, I got to do this all the time. Um, and he said, you know, to, to fly big air, you, I was looking for a place to live and, and he, he said, you know, to fly big lines in, in North America, you should live in Sun Valley or Jackson or the Sierras and the Owens. And these are all places that you and I don't know quite well, spend a lot of time there. And I ended up here, which was the best decision. Yeah. It

was the best decision of

my life, but it's not for everybody flying in Sun Valley. This is very big air as are those other places. And that's why we can go far from Jackson, Sun Valley, New Orleans, and there are other places too. But in my mind, these are about the biggest top three spots in the world. Um, what is it that, you know, a five month pilot to come here and fly in the middle of the day is, is something that I think we're all like, holy shit, who the fuck is this guy? But what do you think it is about your, your personality and your, you're approaching it, you're doing it conservatively and you're being safe and you're in, you're really questioning and, and, and which is, these are all really great things. So you're, you're doing it in, in the right way. Absolutely. Um, but you know, we have a community of people here that would, that have been flying here for 15 years that don't fly here in the middle of the day.

They fly in the mornings and they fly in the evenings and they fly in the glass off and stuff and they'll just never go there. What is it that's different about you or your approach or is it, is it because of the desire? Or is it because you're, you're just more comfortable? Yeah. I

think it's a mix of, of, of lots of, I'm a very adventurous person. You know what I mean? I have already decided that I, you know, would like to, you know, like do some rad XC stuff in my lifetime. I'd like to fly a hundred miles someday and uh, you know, or even whatever, even more important that I want to like go, you know, like what Dave Turner did, like flying over the Sierra. That's so freaking cool. Like even more than distance, like flying, interacting with like that terrain in this magical way. Being able to cross over a range, that stuff to me is just so compelling. And so, and you know, and so I've just been all in and like, I've decided that's something I want to do. And so if you want to do that, you know, you got to come to sun Valley and fly in the middle of the day. That's just the way it is. You

got to taste it.

Yeah. And well, and you know, to, it's not like it's been five months, but so I'm like in this unique situation as a professional climber where I don't have a real job and where I've got a lot of free time and I've been taking all that free time and I've been flying a lot. So, you know, I'm like, I, you know, like a hundred miles. I've been doing like 160 flights or something in five months and you know, I'm coming up on like maybe like 60 or so hours of flying in the last five months. So, you know, I'm like getting it, especially when you consider that, you know, that it's like hard as a beginner to stay up for many hours to get those hours, you know, it's like as you get better, you can get more hours, but I say that's a pretty good, I have a pretty good base. You know what I mean? And, uh, and I'm current and I've been like, you know, and I, and I've been beyond that. I've been kiting a lot and, uh, and trying to, uh, be a master of my wing. And, uh, I've been taking my wing out in pretty high winds and, um, and you know, getting drug around a little bit and learning to, you know, to kill the wing and, and, uh, and, and to, you know, put it up and, you know, getting plucked up 15 feet in the air, then killing the wing and crashing and, but you know, I mean, but like getting, like getting there, you know, getting, getting there and to understanding, you know, how to get that wing nice and overhead and, and that, you know, going back to what am I focused on right now?

Launches and landings. I just want to have perfect launches and then even, you know, cause I feel like launches kind of come naturally to me and I'm like, got a good sense of like the wing and, and, you know, and I'm pretty good at killing it if I don't like it and then, and, uh, and then bringing it up and it looks good and I go, um, but the landings, it's like a lot trickier. And, uh, and if you want to be a good XC pilot, you want to be really good at landing cause you're going to be landing out. There's going to be no flags, you know, you're gonna, it could be a small LZ. There could be trees, there could be weird wind gradients, there could be rotor, there can be all this stuff. And so there's just so much that to it, to landing, you know what I mean? Cause it's not over until you're on the ground. And really the moment of truth is that final, in my mind, you know, it seems to me, my instincts tell me the most dangerous point, you know, in the flight is when you take off and when you land.

Yeah. 99 % of the accident that you, you're flying when you're high. You know, I think that's the, that's the number one question I get. Yeah. Wow. Aren't you really scared when you're really high? And like, no, no, no. Yeah. I'm on the deck. Totally. I'm close to the ground. That's what hurts. Yeah. That's like everything in this sport. The

air doesn't kill you. The ground does,

you know what I mean? You

got plenty

of time in the air. You got time to deal with things then, but it's the ground is, the ground is unforgiving.

It is. I want to dial that in. Yeah, exactly. It's the, you know, it's, it's like, you know, it's not the, it's not the fall that kills you. And it's a, so it's, yeah, that's just important to me. I want to dial that in. I want to be a spot landing master. I want to, uh, you know, be a really good active pilot because like it's important as that is when you're like 3000 foot over the deck and you're controlling your wing and keeping it open. Um, man, that's really important when you're like 70 feet off the deck, you know? And it was actually that day with Bill, you know, one of his good buddies, like, you know, yeah, Brandon, he got whacked, man. It was kind of a bummer. Like, cause we went out and we all flew together and I just took off and boated around inspo. And those guys all went to Salt Lake and, you know, did the cross like, you know, XC stuff. And I was starting to follow. And then I was like, I'm following an Enzo. This is not going to go well. And I came back and voted around and landed and, and, but you know, he just, he, he got, he came in and he got whacked and, uh, you know, he, over the, over the LZ, over the LZ.

Yeah. He took a, he took a bad collapse over the LZ and he, he went in and, uh, and not to, I mean, obviously he's an expert pilot and that's just like, that's the bummer of the sport is bad shit happens. Bad luck happens. You know, you go into a thermic LZ and you get whacked and there's like nothing you can do about it. But I certainly, um, want to diminish my chances of, of getting hurt by being a really good active pilot. So that's why, you know, and just staying on my B wing for a long time, you know what I mean? And push that B wing as far as I can, you know? And, uh, although it's been interesting, you know, I was in wood rat and I already totally get it. I see that syndrome of like, you just want to get on the hotter wing, get on the hotter wing because you know, I'm like, I was like going on glide with Enzo's, you know what I mean? And they were like, hi. Yeah. They're like, bye. Later loser.

I'd be like, and like, you know, lose all this elevation and be way slower and I'd come in super low in the lead and be thermally in the way and trying to get up. And meanwhile, they're like, they'd like, we're out on some peak and some perfect, like nice, you know, thermal and getting high. And I was like, it's all bad. Maybe I need an Enzo next year, next year, next year I'll be on an end, but no, I'm pretty realistic about all that stuff. I'm just going to, you know, try to stay humble and, um, but at the same time, try to push it. It's like a, you know, in anything, you know, it's that you got to assess your own personal, you know, tolerance for risk and, uh, you know, I don't want to get injured. I don't even want to like, you know, brain angle, you know, but at the same time I want to, uh, you know, I want to fly to Fort Collins right now is my next goal from Boulder, you know, the flight to Fort Collins.

How far is that? Oh, I think it's like probably 50, 60 K or something like that. It's a big flight, you know, and you, you got to go deep, but it's pretty reasonable. It's like, it's more about, um, commitment. I think there's a lot of LZs. You know, it's just, there's plenty of places to land and it's like, it's pretty, it's like, you know, it's not like here where you're going super deep on some of these lines, like you guys fly where it's just like mind blowing where you guys go. I'm just like, it blows my mind, dude, like, you know, that you guys go that deep and I

think it was cool yesterday when we landed and we were kind of talking about the flight and we were talking about, you know, how I was climbing faster and stuff like that. And, uh, you know, you, you, you'd gotten this really nice, beautiful client late and you were kind of like, you're kind of looking at the piles and that was our original plan, but we had some land. We were dealing with it. We were dealing with stuff and stuff. But you were talking about like, I could see it. I could, I could go back there and if I got another climb, I could, I could climb there and then I could keep going. And I was like, wait a minute. So the, the first, the first thing you got to change is you will get a climb. You're in big mountains and it's booming and we're getting all these bigger clients and smaller mountains. It's not, if you will find a climb back there and you were like, yes, okay, I get it. I get that. Totally. Right. And that's the, that's a huge difference right there is just, is just understanding that, you know, if you're, if you're, if you're at the right time of the day and things are working and you're looking for triggers and we talk about flying, you know, that there's three levels in the sky.

You're either flying near the ground and you're looking for ground features. You find the middle of the sky where you're either flying, you're flying both, you're flying the clouds if there, if it's not a blue day and you're flying the ground and then, or you're in the top third of the sky and you're flying the clouds and you're not really even worrying about triggers, you know, that's, that doesn't exist anymore in the sky. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And

I think part

of it is just that different mindset. Like I will go there and that will work and if it doesn't, I've just got to go this option two or this is option three. And I can see this kind of like you were geared like, Oh, of course I got it. Once I go back there and I will get another client, I'm 15 grand now, I'm going to go back into the mountains that are 13,000 feet high. I'm going to go to 17 right now. I'm going to go 17. Yeah. With no O2. Yeah. Well then it's kind of like, do I, should I do that? You know, maybe that's not a good thing to play with hypoxia five months in.

I know. Yeah. I'm calling it this special part of this 15 grand at like five months in, I'm pretty stoked about it. I mean, it was dude being at 15,000 feet, like, cause I was like, wow, I'm higher than any of the mountains in the, in the contiguous United States and all. That's amazing. I've used like rising air to go higher than you can climb in, in the, in, you know, in the, in, in the lower 48. So that was pretty, pretty mind blowing. And then I could totally see, you know, the, you know, like the next steps, you know, and like, since I've been here, the weather's been a little iffy. It's been super windy and ratty and, and which has been in some ways more instructive, you know, I haven't had the epic day since I've been here, but in some ways it's like when you don't have the epic days and when you're kind of, you know, kind of struggling a little bit more and stuff, you know, or like flying at the end of the day, like we did, or just taking what you can get.

Um, it gets more instructive, but, uh, but you know, it's, it's, I am hoping we actually get one of these epic days. I've heard you guys have them. We will. We will.

So what are your, what are your, uh, you know, kind of like if you could just have an open slate in front of you with paragliding, what are your, I know you're, you're planning this really cool flight off, uh, or as, uh, but down in Mexico, potentially this winter and, uh, you've got some plans maybe to fly in via or what, what are, what are you kind of, you're, you're latched onto this thing big time, but, um, how is that being steered right now? And what are, you know, cause I know that, you know, what pays the bills is climbing. Um, you know, can you, are you planning on kind of taking a break from climbing to pursue this? Are you going to kind of weave them both together?

Totally. I mean, yeah, definitely. So I, you know, I don't want to lose sight of my love for climbing, you know, and, uh, and I want to combine the sports. Um, at the same time I had this attitude, you know, I was like, wow, I love this. I like, love this sport, you know? And so, and I was like, I, I, in my mind I was all, and it's, this is dangerous and I want to build a really solid base, like all at once, I want to go all in and just build this rad base that I believe will make me, um, a safer pilot because I just have this, like, I'll just build it all at once and it's just like, you know, there's no replacement for hours in the sky. And so I'm trying to get a lot of them all at once and I feel like that's really valuable. And, uh, and then, you know, eventually I do, I mean, I have, I still have ambitions as a climber and stuff, you know, and I, and I want to, uh, to do more rad stuff as a climber, but definitely always in the back of my mind, I think probably for the rest of my life, I'll be like, well, how can I, you know, fly off or, oh, on my rest days where can I fly?

Or, you know what I mean? Or, oh, is this going to be a climbing trip or a paragliding trip? I totally can see that there's going to be both, you know what I mean? And I'm going to have to find the balance and, um, and right. And then also, you know, professionally it's like, well, I'm like, you know, I'm like, oh, I want to do something cool, you know, with the, you know, the North face has been with me since, uh, the very beginning, you know, I've been, I've been sponsored by the North face for like over 12 years. And so, and they, and they do these fun, like more like little expeditions each year with different athletes. And so I pitched this idea of, Hey, you know, me and Matt Siegel, we're new to paragliding. We're going to, as total noobs go to Orzhov. And fly off of it. It's only been flown from the summit once by a famous, um, like professional, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I like probably a slightly better paraglider than us. And, uh, and, but at the same time I saw the video of him doing it and I was like,

that looks kind of like a morning sledder. Like it's just a morning sledder from 19,000 feet. You know, it could, if you can like, you're kind of combining both your passions, you're climbing up it and that's the hope. Yeah. I'm like, and I, and I was definitely like, I was like, well, I want to combine them both. You know, I want to climb up something and fly off it, but I want it to be something that's, well, I want it to be rad. You know what I mean? I want it for, and not even just rad, like, Oh, people think I'm rad. Cause paragliders would be like, Oh, that's cool. Whatever. But just more like, I want it to, in my mind to be a sick experience, which I think flying off a 19,000 foot mountain is a pretty frigging sick thing. And, uh, and then I, you know, I want it to be like a fun story with friends and, you know, maybe make a little film out of it. And, uh, so that's the plan. And then I want to bring along Henzie. Cause he's like started this whole mayhem. He's my instructor.

And so we're bringing him as our safety officer slash, um, you know, cameraman slash character in the film. And, uh, yeah. And we're going to go down to Valle and, uh, and train in advance. And then we'll head over to Orizaba and hopefully get good weather and fly off of it. And maybe just sit up there and realize it was a terrible idea and question my life decisions, my life choices, you know, but you know, that's a, that's like an adventure ride as well. You know, you make a, you, you come up with a crazy idea. And, and then you try to pull it off. Right. And that's like, uh, something that we all should do in life. We should have some crazy audacious goal that we're not sure we can pull off and then just have at it and see if you can. So that's, that's where Zaba this winter, we'll see how it goes. I really

dig that you're thinking big this early into the sport. That's really cool. You know, I mean, I think that, I think that's, you know, one thing that I've seen this, this really cool transition and maybe it's been happening longer than I can, that, that, that's been obvious to me, but there's, there's a lot of really passionate people and we're in a really cool time in this sport that was like, you know, back in your days of living in camp four, you know, 70, it's kind of feels like that to me, you know, it's like climbing was 30 years ago where people are just like finding the unknown and there's so, I mean, the, the potential in, in, in the, the, in North America and really in a lot, a lot of parts of the world, it's just so untapped and it's, it's pretty cool to look at like a blank slate, you know? Just be looking at maps and questioning, is this possible?

Is it possible? What's the new line? No one's flown this line before.

No one's gone over this. Nobody's flown for you guys. No one's flown to Jackson. Why have you guys done that? You can fucking hurry up and do it already. I know. Come on. We're trying so hard for that. It's so simple. It's just right over there. Yeah. But, um, but yeah, that's the beauty of it. And while for me, it's like, you know, one of the, um, you know, I love climbing and I love that there's a huge community that supported me and given me a career. I'm grateful for that. But at the same time. You know, there's part of me that wishes that I was a climber back in the seventies when nothing had been climbed and when it was like this blank slate, you know, and, and where it was just a small community of hardcore eccentric freaks who are pushing the sport. Cause that's what it was like, you know, in the, in the seventies, uh, for, for rock climbing. And I feel like that.

I get that sense that it's a very small, hardcore community of just a few eccentric characters that are pushing this. Sport forward. And that to me is really cool. And it's neat to be a part of. And, uh, and that's my buddy, Zach. He's all dude. He's all, this is totally like, you know, what climbing must've been like in the seventies is all like, you know, none of the lines have been flown, you know, it's like, you know, it's like, I mean, it's just like five years ago, like nobody was doing, you know, like these big lines. And now it's like, people are doing big lines on like on B wings and stuff. Right. I mean,

Nate said when we were, when we were filming 500, he was like, you know, a hundred miles was so four years ago. Yeah. It's just like, right. You know, now it's. Yeah. It just keeps getting bigger. The geometric. And it's, and it's really being driven by dreaming, you know, it's, it's just, it's like, you know, you see, you see one pilot send something big and it's like, holy shit. That goes on, that goes. And then how could I add

onto that? You're like, I could do that and then keep going or like, Oh, maybe if that goes, you know, then maybe this line goes. And it's like, you know, it's really, you know, the, the concept of flying deep. And it also, for me, the concept, cause I think, you know, it's. It's like coming from an outsider, you know, I have a unique perspective, right. Which I think maybe is, you know, kind of a good thing. Like having someone who's like got a different perspective on things, has this, this client perspective. And, you know, and I see these people in there, it's like all about the distance and they're trying to fly these, these long lines. But what's really compelling to me are the, are the compelling lines, the deep lines. They're like, you know, like you guys, like for just a couple of years ago, you flew over a, was it castle peak? You know, that to me is like, in some ways more compelling than the long line. It's that like committing line. Yeah. It's that. And just that.

Yeah. Scenery, seeing something unreal like that, getting over a big peak, you know.

It's, it really was, uh, one of the most beautiful things I heard was, was Bill Belcourt when he, when we were interviewing him for 500 and he said, you know, it's not about, and this was right after I'd done the North American foot launch record here, you know, so I was kind of still on the high about that, but he, you know, he was totally right when he said, you know, it's, it's not about the records, you know, it's about finding an aesthetic line and, and, you know, and pushing, pushing. Pushing something, what he loves about paragliding, which I think is so beautiful, is, is quote us, you know, uh, pushing your own limits in a place where no one sees and no one cares. And there's a purity in that, you know, and that's, that's what, that's what it is about aesthetic line. It really is like flying to Jackson. It's not as far as we've flown, but it's, it's difficult and it's tricky and it's, and there's a novelty to it, right?

And it's not like we

land in Jackson and like, yeah, the whole thing. And that's like, to me, so that's like, I think we're really, you know, Bill Belcourt as, as, as with a huge climbing background. Right. And, and where I can relate to that is, you know, it's not about, you know, climbing the tallest mountain. Right. You know, that's like, because we have like, everybody's like, oh, have you climbed Everest? And like, as climbers, we're like Everest, we don't even respect Everest anymore. We think Everest is like the, the, just the largest conga line in the world. Right. Yeah. And, uh, so it's not, you know, it's, it's about the aesthetic line. It's about the difficult line. You know what I mean? It's not about the, the long line. And, and all of that. That's cool too. You know what I mean? Obviously, dude, you're like distance, like foot launch record and hearing that story, like, like mind blowing, you know, and that's like ballsy, gnarly shit.

You know what I mean? And it's like. Well, and that

was the, the, the beautiful thing about that is it was really aesthetic line. No one had flown it before. And that was, you know, it was a, it was a magical day. And, you know, those, those days are really more about the day than the pilot. It really, you know, it really is. And someone will absolutely go farther and it's, but it's. Could be a while though. I think it, yeah, you just need the right day. Hey, and, and, and, and, and those are impossible to identify from a forecast. You just don't, you know, I happened to be in the air on the right day and I happened to launch late because I'd had a huge day the day before and I was literally going home to go to bed and Matt and Mitch who are really accomplished pilots were up on launch and Matt was like, dude, you got to get up here. And they had launched by when I was still on the chairlift and they flew into, you know, uh, they were totally clouded out when they crossed the Valley and, you know, and I got lucky.

It was, I mean, Matt's a way better pilot. You know, so it's just, it's, it really is a lot about the day and of course a mindset and stuff, but it's, you know, I, I think that, and I think that's right. Is this just like the, the aesthetic lines or, I mean, the really to this day, you know, probably top three flights of my life was a little a hundred K FAI that I did in the North Cascades last year after us nationals, I hadn't had a very good comp and I was kind of bummed out and, and I went up and I, I had never flown there and that was wicked. It's like, you're coming in when you don't know, and you can bring a lot of,

you know, a lot

of, you can bring a lot of creativity to that. You know, I just went out and kind of flew what made sense and I got back and the locals were like, what the hell? And those guys are sending it up there this year. You know, it just, it's just a matter of like looking at things differently and it's, uh, you know, but bill had just gotten back from Texas and, you know, I've been down there for a couple of weeks trying to break a world record down there and it was such a gift for him to tell me like, Hey, I would have traded all those days for that flight in the North Cascades. And it's. And that's, you know, those are static lines are really rewarding. It doesn't have to be big. Yeah. Totally big.

Yeah. It's not at the length is length is cool. And it's obviously one aspect of it and it's a cool thing to chase. I could totally get, you know, getting like towed up in Texas and trying to go far someday or something. You know what I mean? I get that. But it is, that's like, you know, what, what, you know, what you and will did, you know, in the Rockies and stuff like going deep and getting to go over Robson and stuff like that's more kind of to me what it's about, you know, in, in, in my opinion, you know? And, and from my approach, um, that I've had to climbing, which is, you know, that it's about the line and it's about the, uh, you know, the beauty of the line and the purity, the purity of it. And that's yeah. The purity of it. And that's, um, you know, that's, there's a lot of parallels to climbing and paragliding and, uh, and it's cool that it's like, really, they are, you know, sister sports.

I mean, literally, you know, paragliding kind of developed out of it, you know, it was like a way to descend the mountain and, uh, and it's, uh, and then it, it kind of went away. From that. But I could see it coming back to that again, you know, with people like myself and others getting into the sport, hopefully we can, you know, kind of come back to that a little bit. And then, but, but still, man, the cross country stuff, dude, is so cool. I could go on forever, dude. That's like, I'm like sky cracked out. The sky crack is just like, I just can't get enough of it, dude. I'm just like, oh my God, I just need more. And then if I don't get it for like a week, no flying, I'm getting a little grumpy, it's like straight up. It's an addiction. Welcome to the addiction. Oh

my God.

It's, I'd say it's more addictive than climbing for sure. It's, it's definitely like, it's, it's, yeah, you gotta watch that. It's like, there's a weird, a full on addictive quality to it, to the air sports. And I saw that with my friends who got into base jumping and, and so that's something to think about and enjoy like that, that, that compulsion, but at the same time, you know, maybe keep it in check and, and, you know, not let it, um, you know, drive you too far. I think the really

cool thing about, about paragliding is yes, it's dangerous. We talk about the danger and the accidents all the time. Probably too much, but it's, it's, you know, there's a margin, you know, in wingsuiting, there is not, there isn't a margin and we saw that with Sean and Dean and Graham and everybody else. Uh, and that's been sad to watch and I think, you know, obviously that's going to be interesting to see where that goes, but, but, uh, you know, there, there is a margin with the right approach, you know, and training means a lot. You know, I don't think, I don't know, I'm not a wingsuiter, but you know, I don't think that the, the training is, the training will not help. If you go over that line. Yeah. By one inch. Yeah. You know, you just don't have a margin for error and you really do in this, this sport. You do. And

that's pretty cool. Well, it's like, so the classic thing, right? In paragliding, you have a cascade of events, right? So it's like, you know what I mean? It's like a series of things that go wrong in base jumping. It's just basically, oh, you know, you just like, you just, oh, I misjudged and you're dead. That's it. You know what I mean? It's just not, it's just, there's way less margin for error basically. And, uh, you know, you can, you know, mess up like I did probably yesterday. I probably just didn't, you know, maybe I just didn't feel something. I mean, it felt like the hand of God slapped me out of the sky for a second and then my, you know, then everything opened back up and I swung under the wing and I was fine. I just had a little miniature, little, you know, skydiving incident. And, but, but, you know, but probably there was something I missed, you know what I mean? Or something I didn't sense or even I was just like, you know, I should have been like in the thermal and said I'm on the edge of it or all these different, different things, you know?

And, uh, but I got like, you know, I was, I had a scary experience. I was fine, you know, but usually it's, it's like once it, once you make a mistake and something like, you know, where you're going a hundred miles an hour, this guy like wingsuiting, it's just like, it's kind of like you made your mistake and that's it, you pay the ultimate price. So, so I appreciate that about paragliding, you haven't, you have a room for error and it's just, it's, I mean, you know, and I know it's, it's, it's dangerous and you know, and there is this weird obsession I think with paragliders about accidents and like every day, you know, bill was kind of complaining about like, oh, it's all, you know, in the, he's all like, why are, why it's like every year we should be like reports on all these accidents and why are we obsessing over all this stuff, you know, and it's like, he's all in climbing. So we have the, you know, the accidents in North American mountaineering, you know, it's a separate publication.

If you want to read it, you can, you know, but why are we like, you know, obsessing all that? And I was like, kind of like, oh, that's interesting. Actually. Yeah. It's a different climbing. People die all the time. I mean, more people die climbing than in paragliding, um, probably largely due to the numbers. Maybe then probably it's more dangerous to paraglide still, but at the same time it is interesting. It's just, we have a different, like kind of, we're just kind of more used to it maybe, or we just don't obsess over it so much. Um, you know, and it's like, maybe it's less important, but I mean, there is instructive stuff to all that, you know, that happens in climbing with deaths and accidents and stuff. And, and, uh, but there's this weird obsessiveness about it with paragliding. I don't know what it is. I guess. I don't know. It's interesting. I

think, I think, you know, a lot of it's just, uh, you know, in, in climbing you have the whole, you have the, the unseen risks in a sense, like with avalanches and I mean, mountaineering and it was much more dangerous, but it's, it's, it's a lot of that stuff that you can't control. Whereas in paragliding that, you know, the accidents, it's never gear, you don't have gear failures or you don't have things that, you know, these just don't just happen. You know, they're there, you've made a bad call, you're in the air, uh, and you haven't judged the medio, right. You know, all the signs are there and so constantly looking like, why didn't that dude see that, you know, or why didn't that it's, it's always, it's always human judgment. Totally. That gets us in this sport and that's, I think that's a lot of the obsession there is just like, you know.

How do I avoid that? How do I avoid that? Totally. How do I, how do I learn how to walk down? How do I learn how to, you know, how do I learn how to not push it? Totally. And that's something I've really been thinking about a lot lately is that, you know, the flip side of that though is, you know, you're not going to learn how to be a rad XC pilot unless you come to Sun Valley, for example, you don't have to come to Sun Valley, but you know, you, you've decided to come here and push things. A little bit. Totally. And that's, you know, that's also required. So it's this really weird, you know, if I pushed it far enough, if I not pushed it enough, you know, you got to, you do have to get to that line and sometime the nice thing is we can go over the line. We can red light it sometime and get away with it and you just have to be, you know, you have to be not red lining it too many times. Totally. Not push that numbers game too much.

Yeah. No, it's interesting. Yeah. No, you've got it. I mean, you have to push it, especially in this sport. I mean, it's cause a lot, you know what I mean? The whole concept of bump tolerance. Yeah. You got to get used to the fact that the sky is not like a super chill, peaceful place just cause you saw that paragliding video or it looked all like, like they're just like birds soaring through the sky. No, it's like, it's like, you know, you're riding a fricking, you know, like bumpy, bumpy road up there, you know, with like random crazy stuff that happens that's hard to frigging understand. Yeah. And uh, and so that's like, you got to get used to that. Yeah. That's called mountain flying. It's turbulent. Right. It's, you know, you're just suddenly be in this thermal. That's ripping you into the sky and the hand of God has you and, and you have to be, yeah, you have to be stoked and like, woo hoo.

And I think that's where, what makes you a good pilot actually is that, that I can see in you that attitude of that, like, all right, it's on, you know, like that, like as opposed to being like, oh my God, what was that? Because like, you know what I mean? The difference between that is like, come on, bring it. Yeah. You're like, yeah. You're like, oh, it's good today. You know what I mean? As opposed to being like, oh my God. It's strong today. And then, you know, that those two different personalities, one guy went and landed maybe in the heat of the day when it's really dangerous, ironically, and the other guy just frigging like rode the frigging bucking Bronco into the sky and now, and now it's going to have this epic experience. So it's, it's crazy. It's very, it's psychological, it's intellect, intellectual, it's has a lot to do with attitude as far as I can tell. And, and like, hopefully I, uh, the, the, you know, all those, uh, long life paragliders thought about something different from a newbie.

Who, uh, is very excited about the sport and it's been an honor to be on the podcast for sure. Thanks a lot. I

really appreciate it. I've been listening. I listened to all of them because I'm like, so obsessed with

paragliding. I was like, listen to every podcast, you know, and I'm just like hungry for information and you know, kind of like a new, like when I, how I was when I first started climbing, obsessed reading every magazine and you know, like watching every video, you know, like I never watched like a 10 minute YouTube video of GoPro footage of like some climbing guys more, but I will watch that in paragliding right now. So that's where I'm at with it. I love it. I'm stoked. I'm new. And yeah, it's best, best sport ever. It's incredible.

Great. Well, cool. Well, let's, let's end it on that. Let's, uh, just for the listeners there, how do they find out more about you? Where, where can you be found? Oh

yeah. Yeah. Just a quick Google. I mean, you're like the tree, right? Like the brothers. Um, I've got a website, I guess. Um, if you, uh, search Sufferfest one plus two, uh, you can, uh, watch both the films on Vimeo on demand. Um, yeah. I mean, there's all kinds of fun stuff. There's

all kinds of funny

stuff out there. I've got a Facebook page. Uh, you can follow me. Um, there's going to be a lot of paragliding photos. I'm all, I'm kind of like, I'm trying to find the balance of still having climbing material, but like, you know, cool and

active Instagram account that I love following. So thank you. Yeah.

Yeah. So you can follow that and like, and I'm hoping in there. And I think that a lot of, I, I'm in a unique position where there's a lot of people who aren't aware of the sport and, um, and who are learning about the sport through me. And, and I've definitely had people comment like, oh wow. I want to do that. Or I want to get into that. Or how do I get into that? You know? And so I'm hoping, uh, that we can grow this sport. I think it's an incredible sport. It's in its infancy. Hopefully we get to see it, um, blow up and, and, and be the big sport that it deserves to be. Cause it's unreal.

It's

unreal. I agree. I couldn't agree more. Well, that's cool. Thanks very much. I appreciate the time.

Wasn't that fun? I hope you enjoyed the show. Um, I certainly did. It was great to sit down with somebody who's just got the buzz, something fierce and so stoked and, uh, really inspiring to be around that kind of energy and, um, I'm heading out here at the door shortly to join them again. And I'm going to go try to get some more airtime and, uh, Nick Greece is in town. So I'm hoping to sit him down this week and, and, uh, do another podcast with him. And then, uh, as I've promised, we've got Will Gadd on the show here coming up soon. I've got to pin him down. He's a very busy guy, but, uh, I've got some great shows coming up for you. I'm going to try to make these more regular, uh, as always, we are not sponsored, uh, just do this because I love it. And I like to spread the knowledge and, uh, all we ask for, if you'd like to show it in following the footsteps of a podcast that I love called hardcore history and invite you to check that out.

Some fantastic show with Don Dan Carlin, but all we asked for is a buck a show. It helps me pay for beer, beers for these guys and keeps it going. And, uh, I will keep it going regardless, but if you liked the show, we got some value out of it. That's all we asked for. There's a link there on the, on the website, buck a show. Thanks a lot. Cheers.